Forza 5/6 vs GT6 (See First Post Before Posting)
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Yes, yes it is. Again, take note of the context in my post; I've been playing the trio of last-gen games this past week, and GT6 doesn't even match up to FM4 from a physics perspective. Now, I haven't spent any decent amount of time with FM5 yet, but those members that have have unanimously stated that it's moved even further forward compared to FM4. Now, if that's the case, I really can't see GT6 coming out ahead in a direct comparison - although I suppose this is a general-purpose thread, not the specific physics one.
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Based on what? You can't claim to know the details of the physics engine or how it works, the tyre model or what has been done behind the scenes so you shouldn't throw around facts pulled from thin air.
I personally never thought Forza 4 was very good at all, coming from a PC sim racing bias it felt pretty crude and unrefined to me, pretty unrealistic in many situations. GT5 in many ways was terrible but in many ways acted more realistically than Forza 4 when you used realistic tyres, even if some aspects of the physics model were missing or broken.
GT6 is a massive step forward from GT5, on road cars with realistic tyres it can drive very realistically. The difference in FF cars are night and day, the way offthrottle oversteer works is better, the way the game reacts to trail braking is better, the way the tyres react while understeering at the edge of grip is better, the way the tyres react while oversteering at the edge of grip is better. In most cases (aside from these weird rear end lifts under heavy braking) the suspension model is a massive improvement, the way the tyres/suspension act and react to different driving and surface terrain is in a completely different world to GT5.
When we have simulators like Assetto Corsa and Game Stock Car to compare to then both Forza and GT6 seem far behind in so many areas, but comparing the two I can't see how any non-biased person can truly believe that as an overall driving simulator Forza 4 is superior to GT6, Forza 4 is a great game but I didn't think anyone would believe it was truly what we would call a simulator in this day and age.
Can't comment on FM5, haven't played it.
- 10,818
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If you're having to change tyres, settings and who knows what else we're expected to do in GT to match Forza's default, surely any discussion is moot?
I'll readily admit I enjoyed GT6 yesterday, but for what it is and not what it does. If I want to manhandle a car then it doesn't provide me with any danger, whereas playing Forza 5 I had to iron out any cavalier behaviour I picked up from GT5 and FM4 as there's no forgiveness for getting it wrong. To me that is realistic, having gotten it wrong on the road in the past.
I keep reading about lift-off oversteer in GT6, but as previously stated, as someone who is only interested in photomode, this is the sort of thing I look to exploit in order to get more dramatic shots. It just isn't happening in a realistic manner when I try it, with no aids bar ABS on.
I'll readily admit I enjoyed GT6 yesterday, but for what it is and not what it does. If I want to manhandle a car then it doesn't provide me with any danger, whereas playing Forza 5 I had to iron out any cavalier behaviour I picked up from GT5 and FM4 as there's no forgiveness for getting it wrong. To me that is realistic, having gotten it wrong on the road in the past.
I keep reading about lift-off oversteer in GT6, but as previously stated, as someone who is only interested in photomode, this is the sort of thing I look to exploit in order to get more dramatic shots. It just isn't happening in a realistic manner when I try it, with no aids bar ABS on.
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The difference is that in GT6 most cars come with Comfort Soft tyres, which are the real world equivelant of high performance soft compound very expensive road legal tyres, similar to what you might find on a Bugatti Veyron or similar Hypercar. The game is this way to reduce the difficulty so that it's more widely accessable, Comfort Hards are realistic compounds for most road cars, Mediums for supercars such as the Audi R8 or Ferrari 458.
You also have the Sports hard tyres which are basically high performance semi-slick track tyres, or similar to tyres you would see in low level racing, but they are extremely grippy. A lot of players are playing with Racing tyres that are comparable to a soft compound F1 tyre, when a realistic compound for that car even in an organised racing series would be closer to a sports hard.
Basic tyres on some of the cars in Forza are the same though, the first car I bought... Can't remember but some banger of a 100hp car, taking it around the ring and it had massive braking capabilities due to the grip on the tyres, would fall in line similar to the GT's comfort soft tyre.
You also have the Sports hard tyres which are basically high performance semi-slick track tyres, or similar to tyres you would see in low level racing, but they are extremely grippy. A lot of players are playing with Racing tyres that are comparable to a soft compound F1 tyre, when a realistic compound for that car even in an organised racing series would be closer to a sports hard.
Basic tyres on some of the cars in Forza are the same though, the first car I bought... Can't remember but some banger of a 100hp car, taking it around the ring and it had massive braking capabilities due to the grip on the tyres, would fall in line similar to the GT's comfort soft tyre.
- 169
Based on experience
By "realistic tyres" you mean significantly lesser than what the car would have from factory. Yes?
That's not even going in to the fact that all tyre grades reacted in exactly the same way and are nothing more than grip multipliers.
GT6 is hardly any different actually.
FF have no lift off oversteer. You only get oversteer when you apply brakes mid corner. Throttle control doesn't nothing for FF or FR cars. MR cars have it massively over exaggerated to the point where the game tries to make you think car makers made death traps that would snap into uncontrollable death spins because you even considered turning the steering wheel.
The only real advancement on the physics side is suspension but with that horrendous tyre model it's moot.
The only people who think Forza isn't a simulator yet act as though GT is even remotely close to PC sims are delusional. Please, if you really think GT is a better simulator, tell me and everyone else why you can have a high powered rear drive car wheel spinning all the way through to 5th gear without even needing to touch the steering once. Also explain why completely going past the tyres grip limits makes no difference to turning radius, forward traction and braking traction.
This is not even remotely true at all.
"Comfort Hard" are what you would find on an eco box with low friction tyres...
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You're entitled to your opinions and all but don't throw a "based on experience" ********, you might aswell say "because I said so".
I've tested a bunch of FF cars in GT6, lift off oversteer (tho not violent or as obvious as real life) is instantly achieveable for me in my Clio RS '11 and torque steer can be easily noticed in the VW Scirocco R (though it's hard to feel through the wheel in some cars due to the GT6 weight transfer based FFB). If you want torque steer in rear wheel drive cars there are a few examples at Goodwood, The Red Bull X2011 especially, from a 3rd gear launch.
I personally think the MR cars are very accurate in GT6, the Stratos is very driveable for me and the 91 Acura NSX is my favourite car, they drive as you would expect them to. Perhaps you lack the necessary skills to drive these cars? Some of these (stratos) have been listed among the hardest cars to drive in the world.
You mention that, going past the limit of grip has no effect on turning radius/braking etc.. You should turn off Skid Force Recovery, unfortunately it is forced on in some Missions, all Licences and all Goodwood events. This is the only time where the above is true.
What had it with me and FM4 was that while it tried to do a lot of things, it failed at doing those things properly, GT5 had the issue where it didn't even try to do a lot of things, but the things it did do well it did better than FM4. GT6 though is in different worlds of quality to GT5. And yet GT6 is really lacking in some areas, evident when compared to the PC sims that are doing it right. The end of the day though no simulator is perfect, they are all flawed.
If you're going to rage about the tyre model as if you know "based on experience" you will have to let me know your position at PD and your experience working on the project as a physics developer working on the tyre model.
I've tested a bunch of FF cars in GT6, lift off oversteer (tho not violent or as obvious as real life) is instantly achieveable for me in my Clio RS '11 and torque steer can be easily noticed in the VW Scirocco R (though it's hard to feel through the wheel in some cars due to the GT6 weight transfer based FFB). If you want torque steer in rear wheel drive cars there are a few examples at Goodwood, The Red Bull X2011 especially, from a 3rd gear launch.
I personally think the MR cars are very accurate in GT6, the Stratos is very driveable for me and the 91 Acura NSX is my favourite car, they drive as you would expect them to. Perhaps you lack the necessary skills to drive these cars? Some of these (stratos) have been listed among the hardest cars to drive in the world.
You mention that, going past the limit of grip has no effect on turning radius/braking etc.. You should turn off Skid Force Recovery, unfortunately it is forced on in some Missions, all Licences and all Goodwood events. This is the only time where the above is true.
What had it with me and FM4 was that while it tried to do a lot of things, it failed at doing those things properly, GT5 had the issue where it didn't even try to do a lot of things, but the things it did do well it did better than FM4. GT6 though is in different worlds of quality to GT5. And yet GT6 is really lacking in some areas, evident when compared to the PC sims that are doing it right. The end of the day though no simulator is perfect, they are all flawed.
If you're going to rage about the tyre model as if you know "based on experience" you will have to let me know your position at PD and your experience working on the project as a physics developer working on the tyre model.
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So your retort is to completely dismiss me because you said so?
Ladies and gentlemen, irony.
Braking to cause a similar effect to lift off oversteer =/= lift off oversteer.
Turning a constant radius corner and letting of the throttle and nothing else should equal a nice slide in an FF car. Nothing happens in GT6. Braking while letting off and turning in is required to get an FF car to oversteer.
As for the X2010 or w/e, you are clearly remebering wrong because while golding that "challenge" I launched in 3rd gear @ max RPM and only needed to touch the steering when getting ready for the first corner. So no, having a loose steering wheel and it in putting slight turns on take off =/= torque steer.
So you think car makers would sell cars that instantly snap into uncontrollable death spins at normal speeds? No, they wouldn't. At least the stratos makes sense with it's tiny wheel base and having rally as it's main purpose.
I don't use any aids unless I've forgotten to turn them off when driving a new car (which is to say rarely). It's a simple fact that exceeding the limits of grip makes no difference to turning radius, braking performance or forward traction.
I cannot think of anything that GT5 actually got right. GT6 at least does a very good job of suspension.
What sort of BS is this? Every time to turn into a corner, accelerate or brake, spin out and lose traction, you are experiencing the tyre model of a game. Having played GT6 near constantly for the last 3 days, I have in fact got real experience with it's tyre model and it's bloody terrible.
I just watch the IGN review of GT6 for the first time. Wow does this game looks terrible compare to Forza 5. You can see low resolution texture everywhere and the lack of AA. I don't know if its due to the capture method but it really showing its age. The blackout interior ? how is that even acceptable for players.
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You claimed the tyre model was unchanged from GT5, with nothing to back that up other than "experience" based on playing the game, excellent, I'm glad we cleared that up. You're using things in your arguement that are just made up out of thin air. I'm supposed to accept "based on experience" validation
The NSX in GT6 is not a difficult car to drive and really they aren't designed to be driven as hard as they are in game by everyday untrained drivers, people have accidents everyday from driving above their own capabilities in all sorts of cars, The Mclaren F1 is notoriously hard to drive and has been the result of some accidents purely as a result of that, the Lancia Stratos and for example RR cars like the 1980's Porsche/RUF's were known as dangerous "death trap" cars. Let's not forget a few of the examples of the crashed Porsche Carrera GT cars (a 2003 car), very difficult to drive and dangerous car.
So yes I absolutely do think a manufacturer would and does sell cars like this.
Lift off oversteer happens in the game, you can't brand all FF cars in the same boat as if they all react and drive in the same way, many modern FF cars especially do not have a lot of lift of oversteer in this way and I especially noticed it with a 2012 Citreon DS3 it was very stable in this respect. I drive a Focus ST170 and that has a lot of lift-off oversteer and is scary to drive fast, a lot more so than in the game.. But then it is a GT6 standard, and standards accross the board are generally lower quality. Either way, all FF cars do not drive in this way, 90s Honda Civics are understeer buckets especially while trying to turn under throttle (my dad owned one from 97-03 I learned to drive in it) and the in game car reflects that.
Regarding past the limit grip, what you say just comes accross as another "pulled from thin air" comment, it can't be proved because it's an issue that does not exist. It certaintly exists with Skid Force Recovery on, and in some cases there is no way to avoid that in career mode, but with driving aids off the issue you're talking about does not exist within the game, you're welcome to try to prove it.
The NSX in GT6 is not a difficult car to drive and really they aren't designed to be driven as hard as they are in game by everyday untrained drivers, people have accidents everyday from driving above their own capabilities in all sorts of cars, The Mclaren F1 is notoriously hard to drive and has been the result of some accidents purely as a result of that, the Lancia Stratos and for example RR cars like the 1980's Porsche/RUF's were known as dangerous "death trap" cars. Let's not forget a few of the examples of the crashed Porsche Carrera GT cars (a 2003 car), very difficult to drive and dangerous car.
So yes I absolutely do think a manufacturer would and does sell cars like this.
Lift off oversteer happens in the game, you can't brand all FF cars in the same boat as if they all react and drive in the same way, many modern FF cars especially do not have a lot of lift of oversteer in this way and I especially noticed it with a 2012 Citreon DS3 it was very stable in this respect. I drive a Focus ST170 and that has a lot of lift-off oversteer and is scary to drive fast, a lot more so than in the game.. But then it is a GT6 standard, and standards accross the board are generally lower quality. Either way, all FF cars do not drive in this way, 90s Honda Civics are understeer buckets especially while trying to turn under throttle (my dad owned one from 97-03 I learned to drive in it) and the in game car reflects that.
Regarding past the limit grip, what you say just comes accross as another "pulled from thin air" comment, it can't be proved because it's an issue that does not exist. It certaintly exists with Skid Force Recovery on, and in some cases there is no way to avoid that in career mode, but with driving aids off the issue you're talking about does not exist within the game, you're welcome to try to prove it.
I admit I haven't see the game in motion on a PS3 but its obvious that an next-gen game will look better than a PS3/X360 games. I just didn't remember how bad the difference was. Or course IGN/YT video are heavily compressed but still the difference in actually pretty obvious when you look at texture and lighting. I have done my own FM5 video using my Elgato Gamecapture and posted here. You are free to go and watch them. I will actually do some more today with the hood cam and some higher end car (last one was a mini).
UKMikey
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Speaking personally it's nice in Forza to be able to set up the car the way you want it and not have to fiddle with PP settings, tyre selection etc. to increase the difficulty or realism.
It'll be interesting to find out whether GT's supposedly more realistic tyre model allows for torque steer from a standing start. Judging by the comments in other threads this isn't the case.
It'll be interesting to find out whether GT's supposedly more realistic tyre model allows for torque steer from a standing start. Judging by the comments in other threads this isn't the case.
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Yeah, I missaid that. I actually meant PD created a tyre model using data from Yokomaha, GT6 just feels so much more natural than GT5 now imo.
Due to no torque steer, which I was told there wasn't any? Anyways, GT6's physics feels a lot more natural than GT5, and in my opinion too.
I doubt it. GT5's tyre model was weird, it felt strange that it needed changing over and over. GT6's tyre model just feels a lot more better, especially for the fact that on off road its much more different (GT5's was all icy).
McLaren
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I'm with T12. I don't know how you can try to throw in micro-transactions as a reviewable segment of a game when it's a user-choice & has no direct effect on the game itself. What's more, the reviewer says he feels Forza's system is shady, & GT's is passable because he "can appreciate that not everyone has the time required to work through its career mode."
How does that relate at all to actually playing the game? If you took out both transaction systems, would the game change at all?
Processing power doesn't determine accuracy, only the maximum fidelity to which accuracy can be applied. I haven't had a chance to play either game yet, so maybe FM5 is just that good, but older hardware is still capable of at least a slightly fudgier approximation of the same sort of accuracy. It's all in the numbers and equations themselves, not how many you pump out per second.
The snap oversteer in GT5 for MR/RR cars was absurdly harsh, and to me it seemed almost like a "canned" effect triggered by braking, not too different from initiating a drift in Ridge Racer. The resulting spins weren't beyond what's possible in the real world, but the almost digital nature of the oversteer left very little opportunity to correct or avoid the behavior. Like the rest of the handling behavior in that game, it was very wooden and wobbly.
If GT6 is showcasing the same behavior, I might rate it above FM4's understeer-fest under the same circumstances, but I wouldn't say it's realistic. I don't know about FM5.
Good to know basically all of my favorite cars have still been left with second-rate data that causes them to drive like generic lumps despite all the physics improvements...
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McLaren
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I feel it's all just a by-product as the gaming world continues to move towards being an online-based system beyond multiplayer.
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GT6 does not have that strange death brake effect from GT5. One of my earliest memories of GT5 is driving the Murcielago Chrome edition and the brakes causing it to go into a massive slide at the rear. GT6 does not do this, the oversteer from the MR/RR cars in GT6 is purely from throttle lift off, and is pretty easy to control if you're smooth with the throttle. Infact only some of the extreme examples (ones that are known to be very bad in real life like the Stratos) are even what I would call difficult to drive. The Honda NSX is one of the most intuitive and reactive cars in GT6, infact it is my favourite car at the moment, it's a masterpiece of driving enjoyment.
GT6 has come a long long way from GT5, further than I ever thought would happen. I went in expecting a slight difference and came out agreeing with Kaz's conclusion that they had "made a breakthrough" on the physics. Don't get me wrong they are not perfect, and I find some of the high end racing cars feel too sterile, especially on throttle out of corners, the game certainly is not a scratch on Assetto Corsa. But we're comparing Forza and GT here, not the PC sims. In the physics department GT6 has made big leaps.
My real life car does not drive realistically, nor does it sound right, though the gear ratios are accurate. But it is an insignificant car to be honest, other cars feel better and some of them feel fantastic and drive as you could predict/expect.
I played GT5 thursday night and honestly I was surprised at how bad the physics were coming from playing Assetto Corsa, it left me feeling disapointed and I went into GT6 mostly expecting the same only to be blown away. GT5 and GT6 are worlds apart, even if GT6 isn't perfect.
Like I said I've not played FM5 and there is no point arguing about the graphics as FM5 looks beautiful as you would expect on the more up to date hardware. But when looking at FM4 driving physics I have not much good to say, at a push I would rate it in a simular place as GT5, overall.
There is a certain look about PS3/X360 game. I just boot up FM4 on my X360. The game looks nice but there is something about the lighting and the texture that is not comparable on the Xbox 1 /PS4. This is what I mean about not in the same category. It also reminded me I much I miss wheel support. Come one Fanatec already. Get your new wheel out so I can trade up.
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The car has 1500bhp and a lot of torque, pulling off in 3rd gear would cause the torque steer more than it would in 1st, the car is too well balanced for the 1st gear to cause that, it's always more of an issue with long geared cars with high torque.
But where did I say you "have to" do that, don't turn this into a childish debate. The point is to show the torque steer is in there in the simplest easy way. The fact that you can torque steer in a Miata in FM5 is no indication that it's more accurate. In GRID 1 the cars torque steer their asses off all over the place, doesn't make GRID a realistic simulator.
Torque steer is not something that should be massively obvious in every car, it's not something that should just be there and suddenly it's validity of being realistic. It's more complex than that. But either way, we aren't discussing FM5 in my discussion, we're discussing FM4.
When you judge the realism of a simulator you don't list a bunch of things that the software does and then base the realism on that. Tyre wear, Tyre Deformation, Flat Spots, Torque Steer, Aerodynamics, Engine Braking, Off throttle oversteer! My simulator does it all! Well that's great, but it doesn't mean the simulation is better. Game Stock Car runs on the Rfactor 1 engine yet many people consider it a more accurate simulator than Rfactor 2, despite the Rfactor 2's long list of physics features. It's about how it's used to create an end product.
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Torque steer may not necessarily prove anything by itself, but its absence is very telling. Any simulator that determines your trajectory by considering the longitudinal/lateral forces at each tire (as it should) and models differentials appropriately will naturally produce torque steer effects. If a simulator doesn't, it implies that it uses a form of the "sliding brick" model that makes modifications to its default "slide & pivot" behavior to account for wheelspin in a simplistic way. There's no excuse for that kind of modelling in a game that considers itself realistic in this day and age.
You can have a pretty decent simulator without some of those things you mentioned @Bigbazz -- tire wear, tire deformation, flat spots, complex aerodynamics -- but in my opinion, in order to provide a truly natural and intuitive driving experience the car ought to be modelled as a box, suspended from the ground by four sprung and dampened corners, with contact patches that determine its behavior and movement, rather than merely correcting it.
Here's a visual to explain what I mean:
So again, while torque steer doesn't automatically prove that a sim uses a better model than the image on the right, the absence of torque steer means it almost certainly isn't governed by the sort of model on the left. Any speed differential between the left and right tires would cause the car to change its heading accordingly.
You can have a pretty decent simulator without some of those things you mentioned @Bigbazz -- tire wear, tire deformation, flat spots, complex aerodynamics -- but in my opinion, in order to provide a truly natural and intuitive driving experience the car ought to be modelled as a box, suspended from the ground by four sprung and dampened corners, with contact patches that determine its behavior and movement, rather than merely correcting it.
Here's a visual to explain what I mean:
So again, while torque steer doesn't automatically prove that a sim uses a better model than the image on the right, the absence of torque steer means it almost certainly isn't governed by the sort of model on the left. Any speed differential between the left and right tires would cause the car to change its heading accordingly.
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