Forza Motorsport 6: Apex (PC) Discussion

[TonyJZX]

Yeah it shouldnt be compared to Steam. Steam is actually successful. Comparing a dead system to a nascent system to one that actually works in kind of hard.

Its right to compare it to GFWL. They're both by Microsoft and they're both basically the same thing. Why wouldnt you compare them?

Would you not compare Windows 10 to Windows 8?

 

[FordGTGuy]

I'm doing my best not to be roped into another of these discussions where I'll clearly be painted as biased for some reason or another, but having said that...

Up until now Origin was lambasted because it was legitimately and undoubtedly terrible. Mind you, it didn't treat games in a completely unique way as to identify them as apps, but Origin was bad. It had a pretty decent turnaround in no time at all though.

The problem with the Windows Store is Microsoft is treading the same paths that led to GFWL being abandoned to begin with, and it begins and ends with the UWP Framework. The sooner that's fixed the better off they'll be.

Origin has been fine since day one(I've been using it since day one.)

GFWL died because it started as a pay to play online service.

Yeah it shouldnt be compared to Steam. Steam is actually successful. Comparing a dead system to a nascent system to one that actually works in kind of hard.

Its right to compare it to GFWL. They're both by Microsoft and they're both basically the same thing. Why wouldnt you compare them?

Would you not compare Windows 10 to Windows 8?

GFWL's problems are not the the same as the Windows 10 store.

The biggest problem with the Windows 10 store is the lack of SLI support, something that will surely come and something that is barely an issue in the first place.

Unlike GFWL you don't have to mess with keys for games you bought or logging into their service every time you play a game.

You just buy it and play it and the game is tied to your account.

 

[Myles Prower]

The way Microsoft has handled Free to play games like KI and Fable Legends gives me confidence that they will do a very good job with Apex

 

[Imari]

Interesting that they say no wheel support at release. Hopefully that means it will come down the line.

I suspect it will. It seems like a quick and dirty port to just get it out and happening to me. I suspect that it will see more tweaks if it's widely picked up.

The wheel thing in particular, assuming they just haven't adapted the game to use DirectInput wheels and are working on it, sticks out almost as if Microsoft is deliberately alienating some of the people who would otherwise line up to buy this.

I wonder if it's not another Win10 store restriction. Does anyone know of any Win10 apps that support FFB wheels or something similar?

If so, it may simply be that they haven't (or can't) figure out a way around the problem yet.

 

[TonyJZX]

You might take the attitude of various people here.

No one actually uses SLI or cares about 60fps so why would Microsoft care about wheel owners?

Use a kbd and mouse since 100% of people already own that.

Then down the line when it all fails, Microsoft will blame the user for not accepting "innovation".

 

[warp9engage]

I would, normally, be against this "slimmed down" version of Forza, however, if the assets have all been carefully improved for PC, I won't have much to complain. I've wanted to play Forza on PC for a while and it's quite hard to argue with the price of free.

Also, for those interested, I've compiled a bit of a car list that I've got from the trailer and screenshots:

Ariel Atom V8
Aston Martin DBR9
Chevrolet Corvette C7-R
1969 Ford Mustang Boss 302
1969 Pontiac Firebird Trans-Am
1973 Pontiac Firebird Trans-Am SD-455
Volvo S60 STCC
BMW 1-Series BTCC
Audi S3 BTCC
Mercedes A-Class BTCC
2014 Audi R18 E-tron Quattro LMP1
Ferrari LaFerrari
2017 Ford GT
Audi R8 LMS GTD
Mclaren 12C GT3
Mclaren P1
Pagani Huayra
Lamborghini Huracan LP-610-4
Aston Martin One-77
Honda Civic Type-R WTCC
Ferrari 458 Speciale
Mercedes SLS GT3
Ferrari 458 GTE AF Corse
Bentley Continental GT3
BMW Z4 GTLM
Koenigsegg Agera
Lamborghini Aventador LP-700-4
Audi R15++ TDI
Nissan GT-R LM Nismo

That's 29/63 cars so far.

 

[Myles Prower]

I can imagine wheel support will come in time or quickly, this is pretty much a tech demo which means it will get shown around a lot at shows and events, there going to want to add wheel support. Turn 10 also confirmed to IGN that future Forza Motorsport games would be developed concurrently for PC and Xbox One

 

[Terronium-12]

Origin has been fine since day one.

GFWL died because it started as a pay to play online service.

Origin was anything but fine "since day one."

 

[Tornado]

And I'm pretty sure that GFWL didn't become such a cancer over it's 7 year life span because you had to pay to play online for the handful of games that supported it in the first year.

 

[Myles Prower]

Turn 10 told Ars that it ran the demo on a machine with an i7-6700k CPU, a GTX 980Ti, 32GB of RAM, and an SSD. Turn 10 insisted that the game will scale down to lower specs for the large number of Windows PC owners who use little more than Intel HD Graphics for 3D acceleration. Players will be able to fine-tune most settings, tilting the balance between higher fidelity and higher framerates.

May sound silly as its a $1,000 gaming rig but 4K on a single GPU is very impressive

 

[drivatar]

It amazes me the way people talk about Steam like it's some kind of DRM-free platform.(I own enough games and played on Steam enough to know Steam is no where near perfect.)

I agree, some people see Steam godlike

The limitations of the system they are using has nothing to do with DRM, they will be fixed in time.

Many limitations of UWP are intentional. Not easy to fix those.

 

[Myles Prower]

I'm fine with locked files, so far none of the games look mod-able or worth modifying, it has its trade offs with easier development as well, can argue that modding is still niche in the grand scheme of things.

 

[drivatar]

I wonder if it's not another Win10 store restriction. Does anyone know of any Win10 apps that support FFB wheels or something similar?

I don't think there is any wheel or game with complete XInput wheel support.

Many years ago Microsoft promised Windows drivers supporting force feedback for their Xbox 360 Wireless Racing Wheel. Never happened.


Edit:

Future drivers available for Windows Vista™ and Force Feedback for the Wireless Racing Wheel.

https://web.archive.org/web/2008021...-GB/hardware/x/xbox360wirelessgamingreceiver/
http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/...el-using/f5140785-e66b-44c6-b3e6-db62f4bd9edf

 

[FordGTGuy]

Origin was anything but fine "since day one."

I've be able to buy, play and even redeem EA games I owned before Origin came out since I started using it.

And I'm pretty sure that GFWL didn't become such a cancer over it's 7 year life span because you had to pay to play online for the handful of games that supported it in the first year.

First impressions are a killer just look at Xbox One.

 

[Tornado]

Is that why when, say, GTA IV came out people absolutely couldn't stand GFWL being part of that game? I could have sworn it was because it caused horrific slowdown, corrupted saves and occasionally just wouldn't work; but I guess it was in fact because 19 months prior to that game's release Microsoft charged money for it (and refunded everyone 13 months after that).

 

[FordGTGuy]

Is that why when, say, GTA IV came out people absolutely couldn't stand GFWL being part of that game? I could have sworn it was because it caused horrific slowdown, deleted saves and occasionally just wouldn't work; but I guess it was in fact because 19 months prior to that game's release Microsoft charged money for it (and refunded everyone 6 months prior).

Games had their problems but the main reason was the pay subscription that it started off with.

I played Dirt 3, Bioshock, Battlestations, Age of Empire and GTA IV with little issue.

 

[Tornado]

the main reason was the pay subscription that it started off with.

Of course it was. First impressions are so important years and years later (as opposed to actual experience with the thing in question being talked about) that all of this resentment towards the Windows 10 Store is just bottled over from, I dunno, Windows Vista. Or irate Netscape Navigator users. Or ex Digital Research employees.

with little issue.

Seems to be a common theme.

 

[Terronium-12]

I've be able to buy, play and even redeem EA games I owned before Origin came out since I started using it.

Wow. You have a bit of a chicken and egg dilemma going on here, because you're directly equating your own experiences to problems the platform legitimately had. The EULA privacy scare, the poor standing of the store when the platform launched, etc.

I'm clocking out from this point on.

 

[sesselpupser]

I thought it was a free upgrade for everyone, even *ahem* pirates...?

They changed their mind about the latter, I think. Not that I care about that, of course...

 

[Maxrevv]

I see this f2p as a testing ground. If the launch gets a lot of attention, then hopefully they'll release the whole Forza 6 contents for a discounted price. Always wanted to play Forza, but did not see the logic of buying a console just for one game. Hopefully the game is a smooth and scale-able platform, and does not have a buggy launch, that should pave the future for Forza 7, H3 and the rest.

 

[AudiMan2011]

I'm not mad, just very disappointed that the only reason I bought an Xbox in the first place is no longer exclusive.

 

[Myles Prower]

I don't think there is any wheel or game with complete XInput wheel support.

Many years ago Microsoft promised Windows drivers supporting force feedback for their Xbox 360 Wireless Racing Wheel. Never happened.

Wheel support is important to the Turn 10 team, but it's something of a chicken-and-the-egg problem for them at the moment due to UWP being so new. The rep showing off the demo said that part of the goal behind creating Apex was so that peripheral manufacturers would have something to develop against.

 

[Imari]

It's about the ability to control the platforms that the games are being delivered on...

Why does Microsoft need to control my PC?

You do realize that Steam uses DRM right?

I do.

The point is that the way Steam handles DRM and the customer is markedly different to the way some other companies do. That hasn't always been the case, but right now Steam's DRM is about as harmless as it gets.

It amazes me the way people talk about Steam like it's some kind of DRM-free platform.(I own enough games and played on Steam enough to know Steam is no where near perfect.)

Don't confuse me saying that Steam is the best that is available for me saying that it's perfect. I've said no such thing, nor do I want to.

Steam has issues, but the big ones have mostly been ironed out. And with the refund policy these days if you do actually hit a major problem, you just get your money back.

If Microsoft want the Win10 store to be a viable place to buy games, then they need to at least attempt to compare to the level of service that Steam offers. It would be a bit much to expect them to be better, Steam has been around for more than a decade. But they need to at least make a sensible case for why games should use their service other than exclusives.

Origin has been fine since day one(I've been using it since day one.)

No, it really hasn't.

This is exactly as silly a thing to say as that Steam has been fine since day one, and we all know that Steam really, really hasn't.

The biggest problem with the Windows 10 store is the lack of SLI support, something that will surely come and something that is barely an issue in the first place.

No, the biggest problem is that it's putting this Universal Windows Platform layer in between the game and the player. As we can see, it's leading to all sorts of problems that shouldn't exist because of the things it does and doesn't allow. Instead developers are going to be forced to program around the restrictions of this new system. Which if the developers are also selling on Steam or other PC platforms, is work that shouldn't need to be done.

The second biggest problem with the Windows 10 store is that it's selling apps instead of executables. That breaks a whole lot of useful gaming ecosphere systems like GeForce Experience auto-tuning or SweetFX. Or even just simple game specific keybindings that switch based on the program you're using.

As far as I can tell, the Windows 10 Store style of game is reinventing the wheel trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. And breaking a whole lot of good solutions to problems that do exist along the way.

They changed their mind about the latter, I think. Not that I care about that, of course...

Interesting. I had a different experience, but I don't think I can tell that story here.

I'm not a pirate mods, I swear to Blackbeard.

 

[FordGTGuy]

Wow. You have a bit of a chicken and egg dilemma going on here, because you're directly equating your own experiences to problems the platform legitimately had. The EULA privacy scare, the poor standing of the store when the platform launched, etc.

I'm clocking out from this point on.

I never said they weren't legitimate issues but I also don't believe that I was the only one not to have issues with the service. Taking this from the same guy that says Origin has been bad since the start isn't really helping.

EULA is mostly the same for all games, including games you've bought on Steam. The difference is that Steam is loved so people choose to ignore the EULA when it comes to Steam, they also choose to ignore how terrible their family share is.

 

[Tornado]

I never said they weren't legitimate issues

Origin has been fine since day one(I've been using it since day one.)

Anything else?

 

[FordGTGuy]

Why does Microsoft need to control my PC?

It's not about controlling "your" PC it's about their ability to control the platform that is the Windows 10 store, just like Steam has control over the Steam store.

I do.

The point is that the way Steam handles DRM and the customer is markedly different to the way some other companies do. That hasn't always been the case, but right now Steam's DRM is about as harmless as it gets.

How Steam & Windows 10 handle DRM:

1) You sign in (For Steam this happens on startup of the software and for Windows 10 you are normally always logged into your Microsoft account when using your PC.)

2) You play the game with no extra steps.

How GFWL handled DRM:

1) You start the game and you're prompted to log in when the game loads(This forces you to use the overlay which is optional with W10 Store and Steam.)

2) You get to play them game unless you're not able to log in and then you are not allowed to save your game.

Honestly, how do you guys think it works?

Don't confuse me saying that Steam is the best that is available for me saying that it's perfect. I've said no such thing, nor do I want to.

Steam has issues, but the big ones have mostly been ironed out. And with the refund policy these days if you do actually hit a major problem, you just get your money back.

If Microsoft want the Win10 store to be a viable place to buy games, then they need to at least attempt to compare to the level of service that Steam offers. It would be a bit much to expect them to be better, Steam has been around for more than a decade. But they need to at least make a sensible case for why games should use their service other than exclusives.

How about a support system that actually works and doesn't take a month to respond?

No, it really hasn't.

This is exactly as silly a thing to say as that Steam has been fine since day one, and we all know that Steam really, really hasn't.

Origin did what it was built to do on day one; it let you buy, redeem and play your games.


I definitely agree that they should give up on the UWP and just use executable files. The problem is that the Store was most likely never designed to deliver non-UWP files and UWP was never designed to handle AAA games.

Anything else?

Stop being immature, the first thing you quoted is about GFWL and the second is about Origin.

 

[GranTurismo guy]

Why should PC get a full console exclusive game that sells consoles? Right decision.

I honestly don't understand why so many are thinking in this selfish way. The day exclusivity dies is the day gaming gets a whole lot better.

 

[Psychopulse]

Good news indeed! Can't wait to play Forza!

 

[GranTurismo guy]

I just don't get the thinking. How on earth does a game being available on multiple platforms affect your experience in anyway at all?

 

[SlipZtrEm]

I just don't get the thinking. How on earth does a game being available on multiple platforms affect your experience in anyway at all?

"Other people don't have to go through the steps that I went to".

Or something like that.

For me, Forza is the only thing keeping me on the 'Box. And y'know what? Even if FH3 isn't some slimmed-down version on PC, I'll stick with the console. For me, it's not worth getting a PC, because until there's cross-platform online play, I'd rather play where most of the community is. The lack of modding hurts too, though I do remember how much of a headache that was back in the F12k2 days, so it's not a huge loss. It also means investing in yet another platform, probably more than what it cost to get the Box. I'm a Mac user now by dint of my profession, so I'd really rather not have to get another PC.

4K isn't much of a sales point for me either, since 1080p is quite enough as is, and I don't plan on having a display big enough to notice a huge difference for a while yet.