Forza3 Definitive Trailer: AKA Why we are better than GT5 w Pro Racer Testimonials.

[blademask]

What do you mean with rubbish? Like faked?

yeah.. thought it was pshop.. i mean no one would even know to look at the headlights for details... well no one but PD.. lol

 

[sumbrownkid]

I wonder if PD will detail key scratches made on the winning car after the race.

 

[Tenacious D]

to keep jumping on another console's games' faults is ridiculous and disrespectful to the developers who worked hard on it.

Maybe if a certain developer knew what respect was, we might cut them a little more slack. Just my two pennies.

 

[sumbrownkid]

You're right about Dan being a punk about his game, but then again he has to push his game to the consumer. Being silent and having past titles speak for themselves works for PD. It doesn't for Forza, so they have to be more vocal. You see this in car commercials everyday where Ford claims this is better than Toyota, or Honda claims better mileage than VW.

Just my 2 rupees.

 

[Sele1981]

WOW now that looks amazing never seen that details in GT5P!

Where can i see more pictures like this?

 

[sumbrownkid]

Details in this game is crazy...Sometimes I just look at the cars in my garage and try to find the little things that we might missed the first time.

 

[G.T.Ace]

WOW now that looks amazing never seen that details in GT5P!

Where can i see more pictures like this?

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=118098

I also posted a link to the thread in the GTRP but almost no one payed attention.

 

[blademask]

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=118098

I also posted a link to the thread in the GTRP but almost no one payed attention.

Yea I couldn't remember where I saw those.... your tv/camera seems to rule a bit more than mine. But your pics were the reason I took mine heh, didn't believe it..

 

[SUPER NUMBBER]

I have to wonder why a thread about Forza being better than GT would be allowed inside the GT5 forum. You already knew this was coming...

 

[SatansReverence]

Forza is laughable. Okay so I'm going to barely graze another car and all of a sudden, all of my windows are broken at the same time. Look at the rollovers. Totally fake. So I'm gonna run into a wall, roll in all 360 degrees and end up with a perfectly working car, standing up like nothing happened to it? LMAO!

GT5 was developed to be a complete experience, while Forza series *eventually* gets everything right, but ends up being the smaller game, smaller package. Yes, I've owned Forza 1 and 2, but it's package was nowhere near GT level of quality.

First, I have never shattered a window while "slightly rubbing cars". Hell, it takes a big hit on the sides or rear to pop the rear window.

Also, mechanical damage was turned off for E3. Thats why cars can keep going after they roll and it has been mentioned that the game will have DiRT like (ish) terminal damage where you don't move what-so-ever.

And having this is better then absolutely nothing.

 

[SatansReverence]

First off.. The GT5 trailer is all real and in game confirmed by KY himself. Turn10 is the only developer with CGI trailers @ e3, trying to pawn off the 'creativity" trailer with the vehicles spinning as in game.

Secondly, Forzas vehicle detail doesn't touch Gran Turismo. You can compare any of the pictures released to actual production photos of vehicles, you wont find any headlights with bulb details written on them. The vehicles also only use HDRI images for reflections. They don't reflect the track around them as GT does. Its what still gives forza3 the plastic look. And its more than likely why turn10 hasn't released any direct feed images of the game. Its mainly the reflections. GT reflects the track/world. Forza doesn't. If you want to get into this, I have all the pictures. Just dont want to clog up the post.

You can complain about the people in GT5, but uh.. seeing as how Turn10 couldn't run the game with 10 cars on the field let alone having people/dirt to begin with, I doubt its anything you should latch onto.

Judging a simulator on its damage is a mistake. Its nice to have, but in most cases you aren't ramming into things. And when you do, theres a reset button. Forza's damage isn't "full". Its cosmetic, mainly because you cant name any vehicle in the 400 car & suv lineup that will crack fiberglass/carbon fiber. It bends it at 100mph. When most cars are totaled in other sims, you can still limp off the track, without a shattered windscreen after rolling. I've played GTR/GTR2/Live For Speed/GtLegends/Rfactor and many other games.

I've never rolled over once. Rolling isn't a facet of racing strategy that you have to avoid anymore than getting hit by a meteorite while driving.

Re: 400+cars

Lets stop pretending that Forza has nothing but unique vehicles. Forza2 included over 15 civics including WINGS WEST versions, NSX's, same model porsche vehicles with different liverys etc. The reason forza only has 400 vehicles is due to the limitations of outdated DVD technology. Not because they are trying to concentrate on only supercars with current years. If you truly care about supercars, then you would understand that RUF out matches any production built Porsche created. And Ruf has been in the GT series for some time. People like having options of year vehicles because you have the opportunity to use your exact vehicle in the game. Its why Turn10 also decided to add multiple year honda civics in Forza1 & 2. Like GT before it.

When you're at the point of arguing about pit-crew animations for a DRIVING SIMULATOR, you're officially reaching to the bottom of the bag. Forza3 couldn't run pit animations, so they have also been removed. Just like not having weather or night time tracks for 24 hour races.

Turn10 says a lot about their game, they put down other franchises as well as they do it. Physics are subjective. If you like the way you cant recreate any realistic laptimes in Forza1&2 then its the game for you.

Your problem is that you're trying to justify forza with gt. Forza on its own is an underwhelming entry to sims outside of painting pikachu's on low polygon car models. When turn10 can get more than 8 cars on a track, and not have to remove features from the previous titles then it would be something to boast about. Forza3 compared to Forza2 is not much of an upgrade. Remember to the forza community, the physics in F2 were already PERFECT. Now they are what? PERFECTER? Add a rewind feature, and a movie editor, and guess what folks.. thats the definitive simulation for the console world!

Why don't you zoom out just a little bit and look at them awesome octagon parking sensors which, in Forza 3 are perfectly round. Also, compare that to the visable brake rotor vents in Forza 3 and the suspension being visable.

So, that just shows PD focus on useless details while T10 perfects details that you see at all times. I know which I prefer not to mention the fact that there have been numorous threads in fm.net comparing real cars to ingame shots and they almost all look perfect. The difference comes from T10 actually releasing more shots where as what do you have for GT5? a CG trailer? some screenshots that would have taken months to get just right?

Also, having 8 cars on track is for specific reasons.

1) The cars have close to a million polys each, about 3 times that of GT.

2) The physics calculations are atleast 3 times that of GT 5.

3) The A.I is incredibly responsive, it is not just one line garbage that is in GT.

4) It limits that amount of lag in online games.

5) There is no need to worry about slow-down when you can see the entire field particularly off the line where everyone (pretty much) is doing some sort of burnout.

6) When you are actually racing the A.I 7 cars is plenty. This is mainly because the A.I in Forza is somewhat capable of going as fast as the player.

Also, anyone who says Forza 2's physics are perfect is stupid.

Oversteer is a little bit too easy to catch, some drivetrain drag on SOME cars isn't modelled properly and some standard cars handle not quite right.

But compare this to GT's onrails look, effectiveless ripple strips, arcade (damn near the levels of BURNOUT) collisions, very little if any liftoff oversteer, brake physics that can't touch Forza's and so SO much more Forza win's.

The only games that have better physics then Forza are top PC race sims like rFactor.

Also, Forza 3 does have crowds, look at the Le Man video's.

Oh I love this "Judging a simulator on its damage is a mistake. Its nice to have, but in most cases you aren't ramming into things. And when you do, theres a reset button."

Seriously? You think you can call a game a simulator when it has no damage?

Wow, last time I checked when I hit something in a real car (something you probably have never been in) it damages it and when I hit something really hard it don't go so well afterwords.

Guess what, both those happen in Forza and have since the first.

Also, if your precious GT was a good game with good A.I and good physics, in the almost 2 years you have had it there would have been atleast 1 time, maybe even more, where a crash was so big cars should not have been going anywhere fast and should have rolled over.

I recently had a crash LAN (You know, the thing you can do when you DON'T live in your parents basement) racing in Ford GT's on a speedway where the crash was big enough one car almost went over the top of another.

Add roll-over to that and you get a much better, more terrifying and more REALISTIC racing experience.

Also, for the record, my car, my brothers car and one of my mates cars could not move under their own power after the crash.

It's funny how you complain about 15 civics when there is only 5 compared to how many "different" skylines in GT4? Do you think it will be any different in GT5? if you do you are delusional.

Also, Forza 3 already shows promise for a more unique car list with what they have shown thus far.

Also, you will be hard pressed to find ANYONE who thinks the Xbox 360 having only a DVD drive is right. It is it's only limitation but anyway, how can you shovel the blame onto Turn 10 like you do? Was it their choice?

Also, when you have idiots like you saying your game looks the best and then have 10 NPC's all in a line doing the exact same animation it just makes the game look like it was made by ametuers.

Look at Half-Life 2 and the scene where the combine are marching across the bridge. Vavle specifically spread out the animations because even in a game with far from the best graphics NPC's with the same animation just looks garbage.

Also, T10 do NOT put down anyone. Show me one instance when they have.

Simply stating the fact that other games copied certain things like the driving line (the proper one, not just a black smear on the road) and assist layers instead of dumbed down physics is not "putting down" other games or developers.

Also, you can recreate proper lap times in Forza.

You can get a z06 (with fancy driving) around the Nurburgring in roughly the same time as in real life. Same with other cars and tracks.

And finally, I laugh at your stupidity.

"Your problem is that you're trying to justify forza with gt. Forza on its own is an underwhelming entry to sims outside of painting pikachu's on low polygon car models. When turn10 can get more than 8 cars on a track, and not have to remove features from the previous titles then it would be something to boast about. Forza3 compared to Forza2 is not much of an upgrade. Remember to the forza community, the physics in F2 were already PERFECT. Now they are what? PERFECTER? Add a rewind feature, and a movie editor, and guess what folks.. thats the definitive simulation for the console world"

Underwhelming? considering I have about 5 times the options you do and much more exciting cars. GT5 would be a good game IF THEY ACTUALLY DID SOMETHING NEW.

I have NEVER seen a pokemon character painted on a car in Forza but that also leads to the fact we can actually paint cars where you get nothing.

Can you turn this

into this

or this

in gran turismo? Wait, no you can't

And as I stated before 8 cars on track is a choice, not a need.

Also, how can you compare Forza 3's upgrades compared to Forza 2's considering a full feature list has not been released and then ignore the fact that in 4 full games PD have added NOTHING other then more cars and more tracks?

Please, actually come up with arguments that stand up next time.

 

[a6m5]

I don't really care about the "my game's better" argument, either way. I do have couple of quick questions though:

1) The cars have close to a million polys each, about 3 times that of GT.

2) The physics calculations are atleast 3 times that of GT 5.

Three times the polygons of which GT? And how did you come up with the statement #2, in comparison to GT5, which is a game not due out until this November?(I think?)

I'm not trying to be a smartass. I really haven't been paying attention to either games much, and really am lost.

 

[SatansReverence]

I don't really care about the "my game's better" argument, either way. I do have couple of quick questions though:

Three times the polygons of which GT? And how did you come up with the statement #2, in comparison to GT5, which is a game not due out until this November?(I think?)

I'm not trying to be a smartass. I really haven't been paying attention to either games much, and really am lost.

If the game comes out by november content would have been locked in ages ago.

The last few months come down to optimisation and bug testing.

If you mean how do I know 3 times?

Well Forza 3 has 10 times the polys of Forza 2 which has around 100,000 per car so thats around 1 million per car and then the fact that Kaz himself (a person all GT fanboys believe like he is a walking bible or something) said that GT5 would be a good representation of the final product and that has around 300,000 per car.

Also, for #2, anyone who actually has a brain will know Forza's physics are better and its a fact they are calculated at 360 FPS (basically, 6 times a frame) where as GT's down right fake physics would be lucky to go at 120 fps which is why collisions and cars always look so fake when in motion.

 

[Gezim]

SatansReverence, I'd like to ask you some questions.

Can you drive this?

Or this?

Or can you do this?

Can you take this for a spin?

Or better yet, can you get into the wheel of this thing?

 

[a6m5]

If the game comes out by november content would have been locked in ages ago.

The last few months come down to optimisation and bug testing.

Also, for #2, anyone who actually has a brain will know Forza's physics are better and its a fact they are calculated at 360 FPS (basically, 6 times a frame) where as GT's down right fake physics would be lucky to go at 120 fps which is why collisions and cars always look so fake when in motion.

I won't argue that the numbers are already finalized. I'd probably agree that it is likely, though I am no expert. Quite the opposite.

What I'm asking is, where are you getting the numbers? Statements about "anyone with a brain", or calculation in relation to frame rate, I find hardly convincing.

Again, I'm not trying to get a rise out of anyone. But this sounds more like a opinion than factual.

Edit: OK, good answer on #1. While I still am not convinced, I can definitely see where you are coming from.

 

[McLaren]

Also, for #2, anyone who actually has a brain will know Forza's physics are better and its a fact they are calculated at 360 FPS (basically, 6 times a frame) where as GT's down right fake physics would be lucky to go at 120 fps which is why collisions and cars always look so fake when in motion.

By your logic, Forza 3's physics will fail next to Shift which EA claims 400Hz compared to FM3's 360Hz.

All you're doing is the equivalent of bench racing with drag numbers.

 

[niky]

Well Forza 3 has 10 times the polys of Forza 2 which has around 100,000 per car so thats around 1 million per car and then the fact that Kaz himself (a person all GT fanboys believe like he is a walking bible or something) said that GT5 would be a good representation of the final product and that has around 300,000 per car.

My 1:18th scale BMW M3 (loverly Christmas gift... complete down to the articulated seatbelts and felt lining in the trunk) is a good representation of a real BMW M3, but I'm under no illusion that the two are identical. Unless you can quote the exact poly count straight from the horse's mouth, it's best to stop beating that dead... erh... horse.

Also, for #2, anyone who actually has a brain will know Forza's physics are better and its a fact they are calculated at 360 FPS (basically, 6 times a frame) where as GT's down right fake physics would be lucky to go at 120 fps which is why collisions and cars always look so fake when in motion.

Forza 2's Physics are better than GT5P's. (well, actually, that's still debatable. It's true that it factors in more stuff, but the jury is still out on a number of things...)... buuuuut....

The guesstimation of how often physics are calculated and how they are implemented in a game that hasn't been released yet is like saying that since Grand Theft Auto San Andreas had bicycles, Grand Theft Auto IV will, too. Oh. And it doesn't. Thank God.

 

[SatansReverence]

SatansReverence, I'd like to ask you some questions.

Can you drive this?

Or this?

Or can you do this?

Can you take this for a spin?

Or better yet, can you get into the wheel of this thing?

Clearly you have never driven a real concept car.

A) It is rare for them ever to become a production car

B) They are lucky to actually have real engines in them (although apparently the citroen is properly drivable)

Also, I can quite easily paint my own Subaru WRX rally car and give it similar power in Forza 2 let alone what could be done in Forza 3 and I also clearly stated before if I want to do rally, NASCAR or F1 I will get a proper game deisgned just that aspect of motorsport and not some half rate garbage tacked on to the back end of GT which is already far from a simulator.

 

[SatansReverence]

My 1:18th scale BMW M3 (loverly Christmas gift... complete down to the articulated seatbelts and felt lining in the trunk) is a good representation of a real BMW M3, but I'm under no illusion that the two are identical. Unless you can quote the exact poly count straight from the horse's mouth, it's best to stop beating that dead... erh... horse.



Forza 2's Physics are better than GT5P's. (well, actually, that's still debatable. It's true that it factors in more stuff, but the jury is still out on a number of things...)... buuuuut....

The guesstimation of how often physics are calculated and how they are implemented in a game that hasn't been released yet is like saying that since Grand Theft Auto San Andreas had bicycles, Grand Theft Auto IV will, too. Oh. And it doesn't. Thank God.

Ok, stating physics FPS may not actually mean much.

But hey, look, I can admit when I am wrong.

Even then, what Forza calculates and what it takes into account and then puts back out is better then any GT game.

It doesn't have the best physics in any game ever created but it does have the best console physics.

And then the fact that the assist layers dumb down the gameplay instead of dumbing down the actual physics to make lesser skilled drivers able to play.

 

[McLaren]

It doesn't have the best physics in any game ever created but it does have the best console physics.

Until any of us get a chance to play Forza 3, neither GT or FM2 have anything close to having the best console physics. I can think of 2 console titles that go much further.

 

[JDMKING13]

Ok, stating physics FPS may not actually mean much.

But hey, look, I can admit when I am wrong.

Even then, what Forza calculates and what it takes into account and then puts back out is better then any GT game.

It doesn't have the best physics in any game ever created but it does have the best console physics.

And then the fact that the assist layers dumb down the gameplay instead of dumbing down the actual physics to make lesser skilled drivers able to play.

Forza2 got GT4 but vs GT5P GT5P wins hand down IMO i own both games. If you dont mind me asking do you have both games?

 

[Scaff]

OK some of you appear to have either missed my post yesterday or chosen to ignore it.

So once more for the cheap seats.

The AUP is not a menu, you do not pick and chose which bits you think you want to follow and ignore the rest.

To many of you are resorting to digs and insults to each other and I have already had to issue warnings and infractions on this one.

In addition I am seeing far to much opinion posted as fact here; quite simply put ladies and gentlemen, if you can back it up with a source then don't post it as fact.

Also new members, please do not double post, if you have something to add and no one else has posted, use the edit button rather than just posting again.

This thread is now on its last gasp status, continue to take digs at each other and the staff will take action.

This is the last public warning on the subject, follow the AUP or leave.


Thanks

Scaff

 

[Cobra_NZ]

Here are my opinions on the whole FM3 vs GT5 debate.

With regards to car detail, in my opinion, GT5P is still better. I've looked at the screen shots and the videos of both GT5P and FM3 and still I feel like GT5P has the edge. There is the fact that the undercarriage of all cars in FM3 is modelled and it also appears the suspension is modelled too. That plays a part but cars in GT5P still look closest to the real thing. Scenery wise though I think FM3 will have the edge.

Physics comparison is a far more difficult subject and in simulation terms it's extremely difficult to pick the best. As someone before me said neither game may have the best physics on a console. What am sure of, is that FM3's physics will be far more intuitive and most of all, fun. GT4 and GT5P's physics are very difficult to understand and are, well, boring.

In my opinion GT5 will still be the king of presentation and content, but then, it's GT... FM is a rising franchise that has gone leaps and bounds between every instalment. A faster growing star than GT, but FM still has way to go to catch up. As long as they both compete it's good news for all.

My preference at the moment is FM3, and I will most likely vote in October. My dream? That a future GT will give me what I want and FM3 has:

-Lamborghini, Porsche, Maserati, McLaren F1
-damage, car flipping
-private racing rooms
-engine swaps
-after market exterior modifications
-paint and decal editors

Until then I may well put up with the slightly inferior car models and presentation FM3 may have compared to GT5, to get the above...

Lastly GT franchise needs to really raise the bar, at the moment, in many ways, it's second best to the FM franchise.

EDIT: Just hoping Scaff will do a tuning guide for FM3.

 

[Emet_PL]

[...]
Well Forza 3 has 10 times the polys of Forza 2 which has around 100,000 per car so thats around 1 million per car and then the fact that Kaz himself (a person all GT fanboys believe like he is a walking bible or something) said that GT5 would be a good representation of the final product and that has around 300,000 per car.
[...]

Well.. think. I'm pretty sure that they are not ~1 million per car. They sure have more polys than in GT but not 1m.
If this is true, then.. X360 is a monster.
In Crysis on max settings, you can get ~7m polys on scene in one frame. And on powerful PC's it runs at ~30fps..
Now take 8 (8 cars) x 1m + track.. that will give you at least 10m polys in one frame. Game runs at 60fps... so X360 is.. say 2 times more powerful than current hi-end PC's?
No, it's NOT.

[...]
Secondly, Forzas vehicle detail doesn't touch Gran Turismo. You can compare any of the pictures released to actual production photos of vehicles, you wont find any headlights with bulb details written on them. The vehicles also only use HDRI images for reflections. They don't reflect the track around them as GT does. Its what still gives forza3 the plastic look. And its more than likely why turn10 hasn't released any direct feed images of the game. Its mainly the reflections. GT reflects the track/world. Forza doesn't. If you want to get into this, I have all the pictures. Just dont want to clog up the post.
[...]

You are wrong. Forza 3 reflects not only the track/world but it also reflects our opponent's cars.
In other hand GT has got more realistic lighting and other cosmetic things which gives us more realistyc overall look of the game.

 

[DingoEgret]

Can you turn this

into this

or this

in gran turismo? Wait, no you can't

And as I stated before 8 cars on track is a choice, not a need.

Also, how can you compare Forza 3's upgrades compared to Forza 2's considering a full feature list has not been released and then ignore the fact that in 4 full games PD have added NOTHING other then more cars and more tracks?

Please, actually come up with arguments that stand up next time.

yes we can.

Watch carefully slide.

 

[SatansReverence]

Well.. think. I'm pretty sure that they are not ~1 million per car. They sure have more polys than in GT but not 1m.
If this is true, then.. X360 is a monster.
In Crysis on max settings, you can get ~7m polys on scene in one frame. And on powerful PC's it runs at ~30fps..
Now take 8 (8 cars) x 1m + track.. that will give you at least 10m polys in one frame. Game runs at 60fps... so X360 is.. say 2 times more powerful than current hi-end PC's?
No, it's NOT.

Well, the Xbox 360 can render 500 million polys a second.

at 60 FPS that is ~8.3 million polys per frame and you don't render every poly on the car (or track) at the same time.

If you don't render the polys you cannot see it saves alot of them (save loaded textures etc onto the memory and x,y,z's of the polys for quick/instant re rendering)

Goes to show why Forza's car models are better mainly because the 360 can render twice the polys per second compared to the PS3*

*Edited by Scaff - don't try and start a flame war, because you will not be the one to finish it - I will.

 

[Leonidae]

Keep up the good work, kids. This is far better than anything on tv.

 

[humpus]

Well, the Xbox 360 can render 500 million polys a second.

at 60 FPS that is ~8.3 million polys and you don't render every poly on the car (or track) at the same time.

If you don't render the polys you cannot see it saves alot of them (save loaded textures etc onto the memory and x,y,z's of the polys for quick/instant re rendering)

Goes to show why Forza's car models are better mainly because the 360 can render twice the polys per second compared to the PoS3

Come on, you know that's not true. I'll believe you when you post evidence.
You're just barely hanging on with you arguments and even inventing new ones.

Just close the thread already, this guy is ruining it for everyone.
Come back when you have some facts that can be proven.

 

[hardvibes]

numbers mean nothing, there are different techniques. Forza can use all the polygons you want but gt5p cars still look more realistic (better use of shaders?), end of the story.

 

[Sirolf]

Well why is this guy not banned yet ?
Tolerance is good but come on !!This is not constructive at all !!