Forza3 Definitive Trailer: AKA Why we are better than GT5 w Pro Racer Testimonials.

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In theory, one is able to reduce the speed of a car quicker without ABS than with ABS enabled. This occurs because ABS is not designed to make you stop quicker or anything like that ( a lot of people don't get this), it is designed in such a way to make sure that you can apply the brake and still steer the car without locking the front (or rear) tyres. In fact, a driver with enough experience and who knows how a certain car reacts and handles can reduce speed far quicker than a novice or an excellent driver with ABS: threshold braking. This enables the maximum use of the brake system on a car. Read a Skip-barber book ;)

In my view, this also happens in GT5P; using a DFGT, I am faster using no ABS per lap than with ABS enabled...
 
Personally, in my opinion, I don't think you can even compare the two. The Gran Turismo series is way out of Forza's league. For many reasons at that. One of the major ones has to be the fact that GT-PSP doubles the amount of cars FM3 features. I'm convinced GT5 will include more than a thousand cars. The love for cars and racing Polyphony Digital has is absolutely amazing. It outweighs that of Forza.

Physics - If you want the full experience for racing, want it as realistic as possible, then you can't get any better than GT. Now, I have no idea what Microsoft is aiming for, a simulator, or an arcade. Having heard about this "rewind" feature, I think it's safe to say the second one.

Wow, yea them collision physics where you can impart all of your speed onto another car with no repercussions is really realistic and also gotta love how on-rails the cars look in GT5:P

Graphics - We all know who wins this. Take a look at the trailer again, you can see dirt and dust on the rally car. And, it was all real footage of the game. And the people who say it's not have clearly not played GT5:P.
yea and look at the crowds in the city where they are in a shadow and fully lit at the same time.

Also, the "dirt and dust" on the rally car is one of the many CG segments in the trailer. Just explain why the first 2 rally cars shown have no dirt or dust on them? Oh, thats right, because PD and Sony like to say CG is actual gameplay.

Damage - Looking at the recent trailer, the damage looked really impressive. The Subaru's hood seemed to have gotten damaged from the impact of the fall on the ground. And just from that I can expect hitting something straight on will have a much more bigger impact.
Yay, a CGI section of a trailer with damage. Proves nothing fanboy.

Customization - This is where Kazunori Yamauchi's recent comment, "The trailer only shows a small portion of what we're working on." comes in. Who knows? There could be mass customization in this game. I, personally, do, not, want, this. If I wanted it, I'll fire up my Need for Speed: Carbon. I don't have the time, nor want, to be look looking at my car while I'm driving. Gran Turismo isn't America's Top Car. Plus, most of the cars I'll be driving (Ferrari, Audi, BMW) will only look like crap after a customization. What I would like to return though is, the ability to tune performance.
And it's anything different for Forza? Personal attack removed by staff. Hell with how much trouble PD have with getting car liscenses you really think they could add even 1/3rd the customisation that Forza 3 will have?

Hell, you'd be lucky to get half of what Forza 1 has.

Gameplay - I have never finished any of the GT games to 100%, most I've gotten to is 60% with GT4. This is one of the biggies for GT. The amount of time I can actually spend on the game. I don't think Forza offers nearly as much races as GT. With Rally, (and now NASCAR included), hell no. With all the extra additions like license, test runs, missions, additional races for some manufacturers, is obviously, more gameplay.

Well it took me 2 years to get 100% career in Forza 2 and I still have more Achievements to unlock.

Plus, Gran Turismo includes almost all major racing forms. Whether it's NASCAR, WRC, F1 (I'm guessing it'll be included considering there was an F1 in GT5:P), standard racing, yeah, it's all there. Hell, the other day, when I heard about the "small portion" comment, I began to think motorcycles would be included. (Yeah, sue me.)
Yes, it has WRC, NASCAR (who could really care about that one) and F1 but they will be incredibly watered down modes.

If I want to play rally, I get a proper rally game like Collin Macrae or Richard Burns rally. If I want (but I never will) a NASCAR game I will get NASCAR 2009 from EA because they get everything right and if I want an F1 game (again, I never will) I will get a proper one.

If anything GT needs to be improved on, it's the online. I did a race and it wasn't that bad. Though I'm sure any issues and improvements will be dealt with for GT5. How the **** do people know if FM3's online will be "so great"? You don't know, you haven't tried it yet. But being able to rewind during online races? Really? Correct me if I'm wrong but I do believe this was indeed said in one of the videos I have watched.
Personal attack removed by staff. Also, with what Forza 2 has online thats Forza tv, tournaments, Auction house, car gifting, casual (exhibition) races and career races for money and then the fact that you can make your own lobbies and restrict them to just friends if you want.

Couple all that onto the functionality of Xbox Live you have the best online racing game available today.

If anything, you should compare Forza Motorsport to Project Gotham Racing, they do look pretty identical.

Personal attack removed by staff.
PGR is more like GT then Forza is. It's more about graphics then actual racing.

p.s quality over quantity concerning GT-PSP
 
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Exaggerate might be the braking with some cars in Enthusia, but to me (& I don't claim to be a RL expert), Enthusia feels closer to the way it should be. But we've been through all that already! ;)



When you slam on the brakes going into a corner, I would expect the car to lean hard over the front tires & become somewhat unbalanced, not simply evenly slide forward. This is what requires a sensitive foot on the brake - knowing when & how hard to apply brake pressure. It should be a constant tension between braking early & more gently, releasing the brake pressure & regaining car balance & momentum before the turn in, & braking hard & late & risking unbalancing the car going into the corner. I feel GT5P still makes the braking too straightforward, with the only risk being understeer.

I couldn't agree more.

GTR (P&G mod anyone) has done that much better, and stopping your car is actually an issue, and not just a matter of slamming the brakes and the steering wheel to make it through the corner.

Or try it in real life... I usually drive a VW Golf V, I wouldn't expect to get away with putting full brakes when I'm cornering at 160 km/h, yet in the game you'll not have much trouble, if at all.

Don't get me wrong I love the game, but some things are far from being right.
 
@SatansReverence

Please read the PM I have sent you, and as a message to all, I would like to say the following.

Comparisons between two racing titles is always going to be a heated discussion and one that runs the risk of getting personal.

This will not be accepted in any way here at GT Planet and I would remind all members to ensure they are up to date with the AUP, particularly these two parts.

AUP
You will not behave in an abusive and/or hateful manner, and will not harrass, threaten, nor attack anyone or any group. There will be no racially, sexually or physically abusive or inciteful language tolerated.

AUP
You will not use profanity in our forums, and will neither post with language or content that is obscene, sexually oriented, or sexually suggestive nor link to sites that contain such content.

I will be keeping a close eye on this thread, please ensure that you don't risk your membership over a comment you later regret.

Always remember attack the point being made, not the person making it.


Regards

Scaff
 
If you guys want so see in fresh footage of new real cars(including GT-R) with incar camera and overlay speedometer go to : http://www.tekniikanmaailma.fi/autot/vertailut/tm-vertailu-scandinavian-sports-car-of-the-year-2009

Sorry it is only in finnish :) Scroll down and click car name to see time attack video of a specific car.

to me GT5 handling looks quite accurate but oversteering physics need a bit more effort to get the "feel" right when you are on the edge.

edit: translated by google: http://translate.google.com/transla...-of-the-year-2009&sl=fi&tl=en&history_state0=
 
So you go and say Forza having the best physics, graphics and car selection is subjective then saying its not true?

blah blah blah blah blah....

Sounds like theres a Forza fanboy in the mist... Have you been sent here by Dan? Or are you Dan himself??? :lol:

How much did he pay you?
 
Sounds like theres a Forza fanboy in the mist... Have you been sent here by Dan? Or are you Dan himself??? :lol:

How much did he pay you?

Did you miss my post from above?

I don't care if he is a fan boy or not, don't attack the person, attack the point he is making.

if this turns into a flame war I will not hesitate to lock the thread and take action against all involved. I don't care how emotive the subject is, it will not turn GT Planet into a standard gaming forum slanging match.


Scaff
 
If I want (but I never will) a NASCAR game I will get NASCAR 2009 from EA because they get everything right.

I think you lost all credibility with that comment.
EA gets pretty much nothing right. I can't remember the last good game they released, let alone actually putting out patches to fix their broken games. Their were major bugs in their college football game last year, that seemed like they would have been very easy fixes, and EA just let them go without even trying to patch them. This year they actually put the wrong roster onto the final disk of NCAA. How incompetent is that? they didn't even put the final rosters onto a football game, and now that they patched the rosters they still have major problems. Some people have even stopped trying to name the players, because the rosters are so messed up that they say it will take weeks of work to correct them.
 
Did you miss my post from above?

I don't care if he is a fan boy or not, don't attack the person, attack the point he is making.

if this turns into a flame war I will not hesitate to lock the thread and take action against all involved. I don't care how emotive the subject is, it will not turn GT Planet into a standard gaming forum slanging match.


Scaff

Sorry Scaff... I couldnt withhold the sarcasm after his posts... I will stop at that. 👍
 
Enthusia's braking, while better than GT4's in some ways, is still a long way from correct and GT5P is closer.

...

Regards

Scaff

Great post, Scaff :)

I can say from driving my own car (especially in the wet), that the car will naturally understeer like a boat with any throttle (lifting the pressure off the front tyres) or heavy braking (giving the front tyres too much to do). "Lift off" oversteer is also really easy to perform.
 
True sim lovers will appreciate both games regardless or their differences. Both games will have their pros and cons, but i my opinion both will be great, and enjoyed. I love the way where forza is going, and also where gt5 is going,cause it can gives me as a sim lover, opportunity to have best from both worlds. Neither game will have be true to life physics, cause we are missing some crucial elements to compare them (like G forces etc.).Maybe some day when we'll have star trek like holograms, with possibility to injure ourselves, but then i assume cars as we know them what exits in this form. So my point is why are most of you even trying to compare games, it's childish, it's like compering Porsche and Ferrari, so keep it cool 👍
 
Thank you for the detailed rebuttal Scaff. ;)

I'm definitely not somebody who thinks Enthusia was the "second coming"! I do think some of the FR cars in Enthusia (like the BMW E30) really feel like I would expect them to.

Leaving all the details of brake bias, ABS, downforce etc. out of it, I would just say that I would expect cars under heavy braking (paricularly road cars) to require balancing to account for the weight transfer. This was almost totally lacking in GT4 & is still underrepresented in GT5P IMO.

The most striking example of this for me, was jumping into Dayton Road a while ago. Coming into the first left-hander, at maximum speed, at the end of the long oval section, it was possible to simply slam on the brakes to slow down (while the car was actually turning into the long approach to the corner). The only question was when exactly to slam on the brakes to avoid understeering through the corner. I don't believe for a minute that it would be possible to do that IRL without (catastrophically) losing control of the car.
 
Thank you for the detailed rebuttal Scaff. ;)

I'm definitely not somebody who thinks Enthusia was the "second coming"! I do think some of the FR cars in Enthusia (like the BMW E30) really feel like I would expect them to.
The second coming bit wasn't aimed directly at yourself (and sorry if it seemed it was), its just Enthusia gets dragged out by a lot of people at the drop if a hat, and often with some very rose-tinted specs on.


Leaving all the details of brake bias, ABS, downforce etc. out of it, I would just say that I would expect cars under heavy braking (paricularly road cars) to require balancing to account for the weight transfer. This was almost totally lacking in GT4 & is still underrepresented in GT5P IMO.
GT4s braking left a lot to be desired once you got outside straight line ABS time and distances, I was one of the members here who spent a lot of time and effort proving the high and low points of its braking physics (still a very big thread on the subject in the GT4 Tuning sub-forum).

GT5P is much better in this area, particularly with ABS switched off and Pro physics on, but it does still need work.

That however doesn't automatically mean that an unbalanced car will do a lot more than understeer under full braking load when cornering.


The most striking example of this for me, was jumping into Dayton Road a while ago. Coming into the first left-hander, at maximum speed, at the end of the long oval section, it was possible to simply slam on the brakes to slow down (while the car was actually turning into the long approach to the corner). The only question was when exactly to slam on the brakes to avoid understeering through the corner. I don't believe for a minute that it would be possible to do that IRL without (catastrophically) losing control of the car.
While I have not driven on an oval of Datona's nature I have carried out plenty of high speed brake tests in cars, both with ABS and with it disabled.

Strong understeer is (as long as the brake bais on the car is correct) most certainly going to be the most dominate trait if the car by a long way.

Brake in a straight line from a high speed and you get a massive transfer of load to the front two tyres, the lightly loaded rears will still have traction, and exactly as Wolfracer described earlier, will help keep the car going straight. Even if you don't have ABS enabled this is going to be true, your just going to take longer to stop if you have locked the fronts up.

Now if you start steering in this situation very little is actually going to end up happening, you may have started steering before you reached the slip limit of the front tyres, in which case you would have started to transfer more load to the front outside tyre. If it wasn't already past its slip limit, it most likely will be now, the end result of this will be understeer.

Skip Barber defined Under and Oversteer excellently in his book Going faster, understeer occurs when the slip angle of the front tyres is greater than the slip angle of the rear tyres, with oversteer being the exact opposite of this.

Nothing at all (outside of screwed up brake bias or suspension failure) in a heavy braking and steering situation is going to see you with a greater rear slip angle that front slip angle.

I'm not actually sure exactly what you are expecting to happen in thsi situation, but given how you describe it (hard braking and steering) then understeer is exactly what I would expect to see happen.

Only if you tried to over-correct the understeer, with a rapid throttle lift would I expect to see 'some' cars transition to oversteer, but then we wouldn't be braking and steering.

Now GT5P doesn't have lift-off oversteer nailed 100% yet (the vast majority of titles don't get it correct if at all), but that's not caused by braking.


Regards

Scaff
 
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I don't see heavy braking into the corner in the 911, I couldn't tell if the Porsche's brake lights were even on as it goes round the corner. It's hard to tell, but either way I don't see hard braking or the brakes being slammed on at all.

As for the other video I've see that before and it's not really applicable to the debate as things are. They are they all older cars on narrower tyres with no where near as much grip, as good suspension or chassis setups or weight balance. I don't think there are any cars in GT5:P to compare with. The oldest example in GT5:P I can think of is the Ferrari F40 and from my experiance that will squeal around if you don't brake smoothly with it unless your on high grip tyres.
 
Forza is laughable. Okay so I'm going to barely graze another car and all of a sudden, all of my windows are broken at the same time. Look at the rollovers. Totally fake. So I'm gonna run into a wall, roll in all 360 degrees and end up with a perfectly working car, standing up like nothing happened to it? LMAO!

GT5 was developed to be a complete experience, while Forza series *eventually* gets everything right, but ends up being the smaller game, smaller package. Yes, I've owned Forza 1 and 2, but it's package was nowhere near GT level of quality.
 
So you go and say Forza having the best physics, graphics and car selection is subjective then saying its not true?

Personal insult removed by staff

First, he is saying physics on a console game which it does have, in fact, the best physics.

Name one other game that has 360fps for physics, lets the cars roll over, models aero-dynamic lift, tire deformation and the most realistic crash physics I have ever seen in a game?

Also, your precious GT has never done any of this and I have to laugh at its arcade collision physics.

Grahpics are more of preference. GT has much too dark casted shadows but Forza's ambient light is too dark.

Also, the car models in Forza are way ahead of GT. *cough* no octagonal exhaust pipes *cough*

Then car selection Dan CLEARLY said HOTTEST cars. I would prefer to have 400+ cars worth owning compared to 450 skylines, 100 suzuki cuppacino's and just 50 cars worth owning and no Porsche's or Lambo's.

Also, name one game that has 400+ cars with full damage and damn near all of the worlds hottest supercars.

As for community, it will build on Forza 2 and since that does still have the biggest online community for any racing game, nuff said.

Oh yea, lets talk about damage. Prove to me GT5 has it and don't bother showing me that half CG and half in game trailer either.

Want proof that the damage is CG? Look at the first rally cars shown have NO dirt on them and it looks like a game yet when they show the damage the car has dirt on it and looks markedly better.

Also gotta love the pit crews aswell. All of them with the exact, carbon copy animation all the way down the field.

I could go on but whats the point? you GT fanboys probably think GT's physics and graphics are better then real life.


First off.. The GT5 trailer is all real and in game confirmed by KY himself. Turn10 is the only developer with CGI trailers @ e3, trying to pawn off the 'creativity" trailer with the vehicles spinning as in game.

Secondly, Forzas vehicle detail doesn't touch Gran Turismo. You can compare any of the pictures released to actual production photos of vehicles, you wont find any headlights with bulb details written on them. The vehicles also only use HDRI images for reflections. They don't reflect the track around them as GT does. Its what still gives forza3 the plastic look. And its more than likely why turn10 hasn't released any direct feed images of the game. Its mainly the reflections. GT reflects the track/world. Forza doesn't. If you want to get into this, I have all the pictures. Just dont want to clog up the post.
34405352.jpg


You can complain about the people in GT5, but uh.. seeing as how Turn10 couldn't run the game with 10 cars on the field let alone having people/dirt to begin with, I doubt its anything you should latch onto.

Judging a simulator on its damage is a mistake. Its nice to have, but in most cases you aren't ramming into things. And when you do, theres a reset button. Forza's damage isn't "full". Its cosmetic, mainly because you cant name any vehicle in the 400 car & suv lineup that will crack fiberglass/carbon fiber. It bends it at 100mph. When most cars are totaled in other sims, you can still limp off the track, without a shattered windscreen after rolling. I've played GTR/GTR2/Live For Speed/GtLegends/Rfactor and many other games.

I've never rolled over once. Rolling isn't a facet of racing strategy that you have to avoid anymore than getting hit by a meteorite while driving.

Re: 400+cars

Lets stop pretending that Forza has nothing but unique vehicles. Forza2 included over 15 civics including WINGS WEST versions, NSX's, same model porsche vehicles with different liverys etc. The reason forza only has 400 vehicles is due to the limitations of outdated DVD technology. Not because they are trying to concentrate on only supercars with current years. If you truly care about supercars, then you would understand that RUF out matches any production built Porsche created. And Ruf has been in the GT series for some time. People like having options of year vehicles because you have the opportunity to use your exact vehicle in the game. Its why Turn10 also decided to add multiple year honda civics in Forza1 & 2. Like GT before it.

When you're at the point of arguing about pit-crew animations for a DRIVING SIMULATOR, you're officially reaching to the bottom of the bag. Forza3 couldn't run pit animations, so they have also been removed. Just like not having weather or night time tracks for 24 hour races.

Turn10 says a lot about their game, they put down other franchises as well as they do it. Physics are subjective. If you like the way you cant recreate any realistic laptimes in Forza1&2 then its the game for you.

Your problem is that you're trying to justify forza with gt. Forza on its own is an underwhelming entry to sims outside of painting pikachu's on low polygon car models. When turn10 can get more than 8 cars on a track, and not have to remove features from the previous titles then it would be something to boast about. Forza3 compared to Forza2 is not much of an upgrade. Remember to the forza community, the physics in F2 were already PERFECT. Now they are what? PERFECTER? Add a rewind feature, and a movie editor, and guess what folks.. thats the definitive simulation for the console world!
 
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Whatever happened to appreciating the competition? Sure I love GT5, but I'm not going to go and say all Forza's suck. Each game has their merits and faults, but to keep jumping on another console's games' faults is ridiculous and disrespectful to the developers who worked hard on it.

My two cents.
 
Physics,damage, we can debate...

GT5P graphics cant compare.

The hardware is a strong factor.
 
Physics,damage, we can debate...

GT5P graphics cant compare.

The hardware is a strong factor.

I wouldnt even compare the physics either GT5P physics are way better i have both games so this isnt no fanboy stuff either this is the truth IMO
 
The vehicles also only use HDRI images for reflections. They don't reflect the track around them as GT does. Its what still gives forza3 the plastic look. And its more than likely why turn10 hasn't released any direct feed images of the game. Its mainly the reflections. GT reflects the track/world. Forza doesn't.

I wasn't planning on signing up to this site until the release date was set, but just to point out that despite you quite well versed reply and analysis of FM3 The vehicles do reflect their surroundings in FM3 (A lot), and in-game bonnet view shows 60fps reflections of all the other cars as well...

There are plenty of off-screen in-game videos around that show it all, the Camino Viejo one on Gamersyde would show the above to be true..

I personally am in agreement that PD have nailed the lighting and 'true to life' look in their game, and certainly have some very very good ways of showing off their abilities (especially that headlamp), and FM3 is not going to stand up too well in a lot of ways, but I just can't write FM3 off, the actual underlying 'game' seems to be getting a lot of very positive feedback which has got me adding this to my list of games to get this year (alongside GT5 of course!)..

Whatever happened to appreciating the competition? Sure I love GT5, but I'm not going to go and say all Forza's suck. Each game has their merits and faults, but to keep jumping on another console's games' faults is ridiculous and disrespectful to the developers who worked hard on it.

My two cents.

I think this is very similar to my own views! well said..

Oddly, I can't find any real direct 'we are better then GT5' comments coming from T10 themselves, just that 'definitive' rubbish, which is pretty par for the course PR BS, and not to be taken seriously, it seems so far, the fans seem to have turned this into a war all by themselves..

:)
 
Thanks for the headlight pic, these are slowly becoming a mascot like thing for GT5.^^

I thought the ones posted earlier were rubbish.... so i tried it for myself.. needless to say I was shocked that the game is that detailed. Wish i had a better cam, that was off TV w/blackberry.
 
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