Forza3 Definitive Trailer: AKA Why we are better than GT5 w Pro Racer Testimonials.
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Just to add to the above criticism of Forza, it does seem that Tirn 10 does exaggerate the need to brake before the apex of the turn way too much. Especially with the rear engined Porsches. And though it's been a while since I played FM2, I didn't get the impression I was playing a racing sim. This does make me interested to see if FM3 and Shift give me that same impression.
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I tend to think Forza, particularly Forza 2, had peculiar car modeling strategies. I played the game a few times and the cars always seems to look unusual. Once I drove the Ferrari F50, and was looking at the tail lamps and the spoiler. It had that "doughy" appearance, as though the mesh was made out of clay, which meant the manner of application made the cars look a bit funny.
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McLaren
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Nope. Instead of relying on Custer's inability to actually grab good in-game pics instead of ones where the pixels are viewable, you need to go look up some ones of what in-game looks like.
I play Forza 2 quite often, and it doesn't look anything like those 2 pictures.
PD is just as guilty as Turn10 when it comes to Photomode & In-Game shots. Both developers have habits of sprucing up their Photomode shots so the game looks far better than what the actual in-game might.
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- jdmking13
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And knowing that makes my point even Stronger, they way he was going around that track looked very easy except when he crash, but beside that he was flying around those turns. With GT5P that will not happen. i remember my 1st time playing with the F50 It wasnt a good experience. the car had so much power and the crazy gearing it was so hard for me to keep it on the track. Thanks GT Ace 👍
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- thepatriots
I think the main thing one can take from those videos is this... In FM3 the F40 is just a high powered car prone to oversteer. It feels no different than any other high horsepower car. In GT5p it is a car that demands the utmost respect and skill to control. It may be a beast but in the hands of an expert it is quite fast. In GT5p you can feel the turbo lag as well as fact that this is an older car. It is not as poised as some of the more modern cars and as a result gets upset more easily. This gives the car character.
Character is what FM lacks and GT has always had. In GT each car is truly its own character. The Z06, Viper SRT10 and Ford GT, all feel the same in FM2.
But in GT5p they each have there own traits. The Z06 is more nimble but lacks the shear grunt of the GT. Its handling is better than the Viper due to its lighter weight but, even though it is pretty balanced, it is more touchy. This can sometimes make oversteer hard to control. You also need to keep the revs up. The Viper has lots of power but has a hard time putting on the road because it is less balanced (least advanced) and has more weight to carry around. This makes it prone to understeer and oversteer. So around a track it is slower than the Z06 and GT. It also needs to revs to be kept high. The GT has the most grunt (thanks to its super charger and higher HP) but it is also the most balanced (thanks to its MR layout and more "advanced" chassis. Over and under steer are predicable but oversteer and can turn huge due to all the power. It also has a fair bit of weight but makes up for it with its great power delivery and a balanced chassis. Overall its the fastest but the Z06 is only a tick or two behind.
Funny, thats just about exactly how it is in real life.
This review is not perfect and does not go into the best detail but overall is a good representation of each car.
About the only thing in FM2 I can figure out is that the Z06 is lighter and not as weighty, but that is it.
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Sorry for the quick hi-jack, but I've never seen this before, is this a GTHD teaser?
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- Simcoeace
Yeah, why should you have to worry about "braking before the apex of the turn"?!
GT5P, like the other GTs before it, oversimplifies braking & the weight transfer that goes along with it. You can always barrel into the turn & apply full braking with the only issue being understeer. That makes the driving a bit one dimensional. I've no idea how Forza 3 will be, but I certainly hope PD will apply a more demanding physics model to GT5 when it finally appears.
- 906
That's how I drive my Porsche. The motto of 911 drivers is "Never Lift" and "Slow in, Fast out." For 2 reasons, we have a heavy pendelum in the back that will swing out if we lift and the weight transfers to the front and secondly, keeping the weight on the rear tires gives us traction that no other car can.
Anyway, I like getting my braking done while my front wheels are pointing straight, that way I can throttle steer the car. I do the same in my Miata, though the need to brake is much much less. haha!
Why would you want to brake after the apex anyway? Unless you're trying to avoid a collision. I'm on the gas by the time I turn in. This goes for both cars.
So as a 911 owner I feel that Turn 10 got it right. GT4's Rufs just didn't feel right (they're not in GT5P). Actually GT4 didn't feel right period...Among its many flaws.
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Yes, I've driven the F40 quite a lot (& I've only ever used Pro physics) - it's one of the more interesting (difficult) cars to drive in GT5P : it understeers (like all the cars in GT4) & oversteers as well (the big development in physics from GT4 to GT5P). But, under heavy braking it remains very stable & just slides, rather than the weight moving forward & unbalancing the car. This is why you should have to brake early: so that you can re-balance the car before entering & accelerating through the corner.
Again, I don't know if Forza does (or will do this better), but I feel it is one of the failings of the physics oF GT5P.
Again, I don't know if Forza does (or will do this better), but I feel it is one of the failings of the physics oF GT5P.
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Ah. I see where you're going now; that originally came off as you were implying the F40 was stiff regardless. I'm not really sure about the F40 understeering as I can never keep it straight for longer than 30 seconds (
) because it's always snapping out of a corner with the littlest of throttle applied. However, in that particular video the lack of ABS justifies such stiffness and as far as I'm concerned the wheels are locked so you can't go anywhere anyhow without excessive steering input.If that last part is false in anyway, feel free to correct me as I still haven't driven for myself yet.
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Exaggerate might be the braking with some cars in Enthusia, but to me (& I don't claim to be a RL expert), Enthusia feels closer to the way it should be. But we've been through all that already! 
When you slam on the brakes going into a corner, I would expect the car to lean hard over the front tires & become somewhat unbalanced, not simply evenly slide forward. This is what requires a sensitive foot on the brake - knowing when & how hard to apply brake pressure. It should be a constant tension between braking early & more gently, releasing the brake pressure & regaining car balance & momentum before the turn in, & braking hard & late & risking unbalancing the car going into the corner. I feel GT5P still makes the braking too straightforward, with the only risk being understeer.
When you slam on the brakes going into a corner, I would expect the car to lean hard over the front tires & become somewhat unbalanced, not simply evenly slide forward. This is what requires a sensitive foot on the brake - knowing when & how hard to apply brake pressure. It should be a constant tension between braking early & more gently, releasing the brake pressure & regaining car balance & momentum before the turn in, & braking hard & late & risking unbalancing the car going into the corner. I feel GT5P still makes the braking too straightforward, with the only risk being understeer.
Lion-Face
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I think GT5P doesnt model the ABS system that well, as it also appears to act as a TCS & ASM for braking, probably my biggest issue with the game. Turning ABS off changes the braking completely, unfortunately there is no policing on the ABS issue for online racing, and due to the way ABS is modelled, its significantly faster than running ABS off.
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- jdmking13
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Exaggerate might be the braking with some cars in Enthusia, but to me (& I don't claim to be a RL expert), Enthusia feels closer to the way it should be. But we've been through all that already!
When you slam on the brakes going into a corner, I would expect the car to lean hard over the front tires & become somewhat unbalanced, not simply evenly slide forward. This is what requires a sensitive foot on the brake - knowing when & how hard to apply brake pressure. It should be a constant tension between braking early & more gently, releasing the brake pressure & regaining car balance & momentum before the turn in, & braking hard & late & risking unbalancing the car going into the corner. I feel GT5P still makes the braking too straightforward, with the only risk being understeer.
NOT with the GTR35 i dare you appraoch a turn with that braking method you will loose control everytime. With the F430 it has better Downforce but i will def take what your saying and put it to test and i will let you know how it goes
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Exaggerate might be the braking with some cars in Enthusia, but to me (& I don't claim to be a RL expert), Enthusia feels closer to the way it should be. But we've been through all that already!
When you slam on the brakes going into a corner, I would expect the car to lean hard over the front tires & become somewhat unbalanced, not simply evenly slide forward. This is what requires a sensitive foot on the brake - knowing when & how hard to apply brake pressure. It should be a constant tension between braking early & more gently, releasing the brake pressure & regaining car balance & momentum before the turn in, & braking hard & late & risking unbalancing the car going into the corner. I feel GT5P still makes the braking too straightforward, with the only risk being understeer.
In the "ABS" braking on that LFS video, the driver still had to do little corrections to keep the car straight. The 2nd part is just the wheels locking up, once that happens you aren't gonna have much control over the car
If a car understeers heavily under braking its often because the brake bias is set too far forward. The front wheels are doing all the work if the bias is too far forward, so have no grip left to actually steer, while the rear wheels have heaps of traction, so the car wants to stay straight (following the direction of the rear wheels, like the feathers on an arrow/dart keeping the arrow straight).
If the bias is set rearward, the car will become unstable under brakes. The rear wheels will lose traction because they are put beyond thier limit due to brake bias, but the front wheels will keep traction, but the front wheels can't keep the car going straight (or not easily) because the weight is behind the front wheels (like an arrow/dart with no feathers to keep it straight).
If cars in GT5P understeer under brakes even with the bias set too far rearward, that's unrealistic
If it understeers because the bias is too far forward, that's to be expected.
Scaff
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Enthusia's braking, while better than GT4's in some ways, is still a long way from correct and GT5P is closer.Exaggerate might be the braking with some cars in Enthusia, but to me (& I don't claim to be a RL expert), Enthusia feels closer to the way it should be. But we've been through all that already!
Its also worth noting that Enthusia doesn't model lock-up at all, something that GT5P and Forza both do.
I loved Enthusia as much as any sane person, but I do wish people would stop bangingon about it like it was the second-coming, its physics engine still had some very major issues with it (like ALL front wheel drive cars).
The vast majority of road cars are set-up to ensure that the handling balance when you go over the limit is understeer, its far safer to do so as its more 'natural' to correct and carries a far lower risk of spinning when doing so.
Even if you have unbalanced the car the front outside tyre is still the one with the greatest slip when braking and cornering, its the one that will dominate the balance of the car and cause you to slide wide.
As this video shows even a race car will do this.
You are only going to normally start to further upset the car if you rapidly lift off the brakes when strongly understeering, and this will be because you take load off the front outside tyre, it grips, but the rear is still beyond its slip limit and you end up oversteering.
The only way you would normally encounter oversteer on braking and cornering is in a car with out ABS and with a poorly set-up brake balance (a few real world TVRs have suffered from this). The interesting thing here is that Enthusia was not able to model this at all. However switch on Pro physics and ABS off in GT5P, then set the brake bias to max rear and min front and take a car for a drive. What you will get is instant brake induced oversteer.
Regards
Scaff
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SatansReverence
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For those people individually, yes. But not when they're put together in an online race for example. But if those different types of players are kept seperated, there's no problem.
I didn't mean to bash on the entire game at all. As long if there's a section of the game (offline and online) where I can drive in a sim way, I'm satisfied. I have to admit that I don't know how these things will be introduced in Forza 3 though.
And just for the record: I get so fed up by how this game is announced. Taken from E3:
Forza 3 brings you what no other racing game can:
- The best graphics and physics (subjective, not true)
- The largest choice of the hottest cars (subjective, not true)
- The most thrilling action and approachable gameplay (subjective, debatable)
- The biggest creative online community (the game isn't even released yet)
They're just so damn full of themselves. Ok, it's PR, it's what game publishers do. But the way they're presenting this game, it just goes too far.
So you go and say Forza having the best physics, graphics and car selection is subjective then saying its not true?
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First, he is saying physics on a console game which it does have, in fact, the best physics.
Name one other game that has 360fps for physics, lets the cars roll over, models aero-dynamic lift, tire deformation and the most realistic crash physics I have ever seen in a game?
Also, your precious GT has never done any of this and I have to laugh at its arcade collision physics.
Grahpics are more of preference. GT has much too dark casted shadows but Forza's ambient light is too dark.
Also, the car models in Forza are way ahead of GT. *cough* no octagonal exhaust pipes *cough*
Then car selection Dan CLEARLY said HOTTEST cars. I would prefer to have 400+ cars worth owning compared to 450 skylines, 100 suzuki cuppacino's and just 50 cars worth owning and no Porsche's or Lambo's.
Also, name one game that has 400+ cars with full damage and damn near all of the worlds hottest supercars.
As for community, it will build on Forza 2 and since that does still have the biggest online community for any racing game, nuff said.
Oh yea, lets talk about damage. Prove to me GT5 has it and don't bother showing me that half CG and half in game trailer either.
Want proof that the damage is CG? Look at the first rally cars shown have NO dirt on them and it looks like a game yet when they show the damage the car has dirt on it and looks markedly better.
Also gotta love the pit crews aswell. All of them with the exact, carbon copy animation all the way down the field.
I could go on but whats the point? you GT fanboys probably think GT's physics and graphics are better then real life.
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