Forza3 Definitive Trailer: AKA Why we are better than GT5 w Pro Racer Testimonials.

[sejtur]

Apart from the CGI rubbish (well actually it looks 'ok', just scripted badly), the main game demo he shows is missing quite a bit..

1. The roll-over of the R10 obviously has no shadow...
2. The driver hands animations for gear change seem missing..

I don't think it's worth jumping to too many conclusions at this point, I'm sure the roll-over shadow is a sign of beta code, or if that's final code, it's going to come under some critcism!

T10 are pants at showing these things off, PD are masters at it, you don't show half finished code off or everyone is going to see what's missing and start analysing..


I can see that this whole 'manufacturers' not wanting huge damage on 'road cars' is never going to lead to awesome carnage.. which just isn't going to please many visually (including me).. But unless GT5 pulls off better damage agreements with road cars, what can you expect?

I think an R8 has flippers behind the wheel for shifting?

Well, PD also showed something off where alot of things were missing too: GT5. I remember there was something wrong with the mirror, etc.

Regarding damage; GRID has awesome damage, but that game only has like 40 cars, and the cars aren't near as detailed as from GT5 I think.

 

[Scaff]

That's all CGI; Forza 3 won't really allow the physics to be like that. But, I have no idea why they did it either.

I bloody well hope not, as the laws of physics do not allow a car to rotate 360 degrees with no deviation in forward direction at all, one of the single most daft things I have seen (and that includes the infamous airborne TVR from the original GT intro video).

However the damage modeling in the game section was very unconvincing; and before Joey comments again - yes I know GT doesn't currently have it, but I can hardly compare it to something I haven't yet seen fully, i.e. GTs damage model. That however doesn't stop me being able to comment on FM3's damage.


Regards

Scaff

 

[McLaren]

I think an R8 has flippers behind the wheel for shifting?

Well, PD also showed something off where alot of things were missing: GT5. I remember there was something wrong with the mirror, etc.

But a Ford GT doesn't; 1 video of it showed it missing hand animations as well. I do believe they are working on it, though.

 

[DaddyVDUB]

NOT Impressed with Forza 3, looks fake and what the heck is "autobrake" jeesh. Dos'nt look convincing at all...Bring ON GT5

 

[Vincent]

The first crash is CGI, not in game (pay attention to the blue ferrari). Can't remember if it was in the actual CGI trailer or it may be an off cut.

The Audi crash does look a little funky but that sort of thing is still getting worked on.

The last crash is a part of the CGI trailer.

Good to hear about the first one, I wasn't quite sure if it was an actual representation or simply a CGI scene, or some hybrid. I hope the low damage on the Audi was due to a low level of damage setting, because if not, the damage model (or the permissions from manufacturers to model realistic damage) still has quite a way to go.

For either franchise, my preference for damage is to have full damage on every single car, or if that is not possible due to technology or licensing agreements, then at least the highest level of damage possible without resulting in a different setting for each car. For instance, if Ferrari will only allow 30% damage, but Nissan will allow 50 or 60% damage, I would rather see damage capped at 30% (for a particular race), if only for consistency.

I wish it were made public which manufacturers are the most restrictive so that I would know who to send a piece of my mind.

We should post these disclaimers everytime we critisize FM, in case wrong assumptions are made.

I mostly wanted to make it clear that I wasn't wearing rose-colored glasses for GT, and that I wasn't just another mindless GT fanboy (I think there are a great number of folks here who are mistakenly put into this category).

BTW I think the drifting was not in-game (the too perfect drifting)

Well, it's also the way the game looks. Everything looks so perfect as to be fake. There isn't enough grittiness or dirtiness, and the lighting, as mentioned before, just looks off. It's not just the cars, either. The buildings, the tracks, the scenery, etc., just look too reflective, too clean, etc. to appear realistic. That said, GT isn't free from criticism on these grounds either (though they seem to have most of the lighting nailed down pretty well).

 

[sejtur]

I mostly wanted to make it clear that I wasn't wearing rose-colored glasses for GT, and that I wasn't just another mindless GT fanboy (I think there are a great number of folks here who are mistakenly put into this category).

Well, it's also the way the game looks. Everything looks so perfect as to be fake. There isn't enough grittiness or dirtiness, and the lighting, as mentioned before, just looks off. It's not just the cars, either. The buildings, the tracks, the scenery, etc., just look too reflective, too clean, etc. to appear realistic. That said, GT isn't free from criticism on these grounds either (though they seem to have most of the lighting nailed down pretty well).

I totally agree with you about these things.
Earlier in this thread, I said I found it funny that some people were claiming something about Forza (like they know everything about the game), and then be proven wrong. And then somebody said to me something like: "I think it's funnier to have people like you saying bad things about Forza and acting like you know it all". I didn't even claim anything about Forza... It seems like some people are really quick judging you and then put a label on you. 👎

On-topic:
I think Forza looks a little too perfect too. It looks nice though, just not as real as GT5 qua lighting, shadows, reflections.. almost everything. But GT5P has it's flaws too, absolutely. The jaggy shadows in the cockpits, and even on the track sometimes.

And maybe, GT5 is going to have real drivers for Nascar. I think that also means for the WRC part. That would be pretty nice. Then you have WRC, Nascar and GT in one. That explains why Dirt 2 hasn't got the WRC in it anymore. I think they said something about it like: "the rally world isn't as exciting anymore as it was earlier." They may be right, but I think they just say that because they lost their WRC license, to PD. I wish PD had the F1 license rather than the WRC license though. Though, I think CM will do a good job on the F1 game in 2010. I'm looking forward to it... I've had a drought of 3 years of F1-games.

 

[phil-t]

Regarding damage; GRID has awesome damage, but that game only has like 40 cars, and the cars aren't near as detailed as from GT5 I think.

I don't have Grid, but looking at the images I can find, the road cars actually look stripped out with roll-cages etc, and they would then be classed as race cars, in which case you can damage then much more as the normal licensing rules don't apply (or something like that)..

I'm waiting to see what PD can do for normal road cars, it seems they've got Rally cars nailed, but again these won't come under the same restrictions for damage as the proper road car, if all the stories about manufacturers not wanting too much damage to be shown are true..

 

[Biggles]

Just for the record: GTPlanet is one of the most civil forums I've come across, otherwise I wouldn't even bother with it. There are many informed, intelligent posters. However, overall there is still a strong underlying GT bias (eg. Forza has damage? Who needs damage? Anyway Forza's damage isn't that good!) - understandable, but not useful IMO. I would rather have more disinterested, objective viewpoints, because personally, I don't have any emotional attachment to GT, only to the racing sim experience.

The bottom line is: the better FM3 is, the more pressure there is on PD to produce a better product, & all of us, as consumers, will benefit from that. 👍

 

[Bogie 19th]

For your consideration take a look at 3.15 onwards and let me know what you think physics wise. The damage following a roll-over is also not that impressive I have to say. Regards. Scaff

Assists are on, limiting damage. When people were at the kiosks at E3, they turned all the assists off, and when they hit a wall and/or flipped, more damage occurred, and many times the cars sat there and smoked and were not drivable (just like in Forza 2).

In the second crash, at 4:53, where he intentionally runs the Audi into a wall, I was thoroughly unimpressed. At the speed he was going (116 mph), a wreck like that should have been the end of his day on the track, but that level of damage just wasn't there. Perhaps the level of damage was turned down, but if not...

It was turned down. Che from Turn 10 mentioned that they are showing games with assists on to the press. This means less damage, and cars are drivable no matter what you do to them (just like in F2).

Why are the cars driving backwards on track and then spinning around or doing donuts while other cars drive through.... ??? What about that trick at 3:18??? What does that have to do with racing??

They were showing off the video editing features of the game. They had a select number of people from the community come in and make a video from in the game. That was created in game, and was edited in game by the in game video editor. They had a community team, ProjectBLK, do the video and all the racing you see. Everything you see in that video linked below is in game, and can be done and edited in game and uploaded for you to share. They were not saying that was "racing". The 360s, cars going through the bridge between the other cars while drifting, that was all done by gamers like us. ProjectBLK is all about drifting and displaying/showing off different car maneuvers, in sync. They have been doing this with Forza 2.

http://www.youtube.com/user/ProjectBLKJ#play/all

The flips were NOT done by ProjectBLK though.

I don't think it's worth jumping to too many conclusions at this point, I'm sure the roll-over shadow is a sign of beta code, or if that's final code, it's going to come under some critcism!

The videos we have seen have all been pre-alpha code.

I am jacked about F3. Then again, after spending my first week with the GT series this week (GT5p), I am jacked about GT5 as well.

 

[Scaff]

They were showing off the video editing features of the game. They had a select number of people from the community come in and make a video from in the game. That was created in game, and was edited in game by the in game video editor. They had a community team, ProjectBLK, do the video and all the racing you see. Everything you see in that video linked below is in game, and can be done and edited in game and uploaded for you to share. They were not saying that was "racing". The 360s, cars going through the bridge between the other cars while drifting, that was all done by gamers like us. ProjectBLK is all about drifting and displaying/showing off different car maneuvers, in sync. They have been doing this with Forza 2.

Sorry but are you saying the 360's done around 3.15 in that vid are representative of the in-game physics?

If thats the case then I am deeply disapointed as it's in no way remotely realistic at all, cars simply do not behave like that. You can't pull a 360 and still remain on exactly the same forward vector, the car would have to exibit some kind of lateral change of direction.




Scaff

 

[Bogie 19th]

I never mentioned the word physics.

BTW, there are many things I have done in Forza 2 (and in GT5p) that we can't do in real life. Take today for example, in GT5p. I just started Class B. I was racing the R34 on the Daytona infield for the first time. After the first infield it takes you back up on the track. Shortly after, there is a small infield jut away from the straight away that takes you back onto the track again. I didn't realize that was coming, and I hit a red/white wall in the middle of Daytona track (which wouldn't be there in real life), and I hit it at 165mph, and my car bounced off to the left, and I remained on the track and I stayed in first place. If I would have hit that NON real life wall in Forza 2, my car would be sitting there smoking, and I would have to idle back to the pits at 1mph with broken control arms, roasted engine, and torn up transmission (or get pushed by someone online if I was playing online).

Now THAT is some serious physics problem IMO.

I don't see any reason to get in a pissing match. I was merely answering the question of the poster as to why that scene was in the video, "because it wasn't even racing".

 

[Dave A]

That video would highlight some very glaring problems with the driving physcis in Forza 3 if it was created using the in game driving model. More glaring than anything in GT5.

 

[otago]

it doesn't compare favourably with Ferrari Challenge for example.

Damn. I bought recently Ferrari Challenge but there is no adjustment of force feedback in game, at least with my DFGT. By default it feels more like you are driving tractor in the field, totally unplayable. So I still have no idea about what the physics is and how the game plays.

It's like releasing shooter with inverted controls and no way to change it, pretty dumb. Maybe they fixed it in some patch, but I don't have internet at home and don't bother to plug it cause game must be playable straight from the box, not after N patches

 

[Dave A]

Can't you adjust the strenth of the FFB on the actual DFP it'self. It's beena while since I've changed the settings on mine but I'm sure press a combination of buttons together and it cycles through DFT settings. Maybe someone else knows more about it.

 

[Duphman]

I don't mind if Forza has some wonky driving physics. It seems kind of fun. And the crash physics are pretty good.

 

[skywolf23]

well what is fm3? the ultimate racing sim? the great gt series killer in detail and scope? or just another console arcade pretty game?

the fact is has a "rewind" feature sure is a strike against it being a killer sim experience, and that video if it was all actual gameplay was the silliest thing i ever seen. cars drifting around corners on rails, cars doing 360 degree spins like they on a turntable in the middle of the road, i hope that whole viedoe was prerendered nonsense.

but hey neither game is out maybe this thread should relax till one or both games are actually out and playable rather than trying to guess how the physics will be, how the force feedback will be, how the game looks vs actual gameplay against photo mode or prerendered cgi?

it is all well and good to read previews and interviews where people can make all kinda of claims about this and that and polygons and physics but it don't mean squat till we actually see either game in actual action.

 

[ZROC]

That video with the "trick" driving was not in game. It was created by Landin from Project Blackjack, who have been doing thier thing since Forza 1 by the way. That video was to simply show what you could do with A video editor. There is NO editor IN the game. You are just able to upload replays from the game to your pc via the internet.

 

[Bogie 19th]

That video with the "trick" driving was not in game. It was created by Landin from Project Blackjack, who have been doing thier thing since Forza 1 by the way. That video was to simply show what you could do with A video editor. There is NO editor IN the game. You are just able to upload replays from the game to your pc via the internet.

Not true at all. Not only does the game have a VIDEO editor (which it does), it will also let you up load those videos from your 360 to ForzaMotorsport.net and then download or share. And yes, that was done in game by Landin William from ProjectBlack. That was all confirmed by Dan from Turn 10 as well.

Links to video editor confirmation:

http://kotaku.com/5274236/forza-3-speeding-to-360-this-october

"he next installment of the popular Forza racing series is heading to the Xbox 360 this fall, with a new engine, a video editor, and more cars than you can shake a stick-shift at."

http://blogs.eurotuner.com/6550469/editorials/forza-motorsport-3-video-game/index.html

"Once again there will be tuning options, as well as the paint program and video editing, making this one of the most rounded driving games available."

and

"There will also be a big focus on player created content, as was the case with the second game, and will include the ability to upload HD video built using the in-game video editor."

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/34517/Forza-3-officially-announced#after_ad

Sweet. Even I didn't know it was HD.

Edit. I was wrong about IN GAME. Please disregard. It was CG. My Bad.

"Joined on 09-02-2008 Forzamotorsport.net Moderator
Re: Creativity video?



So I've been reading alot of thoughts on this video and I want to clarify. Inspired by Project Blackjack, this video is an example of what can be done in-game (if you have the determination of course). This video was produced very early on at a stage when we weren't comfortable showing the game...it's a CG render.
So to be clear...this video does not contain any in-game footage. If you want to see 100% in-game footage check out the "E3 2009 Trailer" on the Forza Motorsport 3 page! "

 

[ZROC]

Landin and Che said in todays podcast that you could upload replays from the game to your computer to edit.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Landin and Che said in todays podcast that you could upload replays from the game to your computer to edit.

I am listening to it now. They said it's in-game video editing, and you can export in 720p HD to ForzaMotorsport.net.

 

[Scaff]

I never mentioned the word physics.

You clearly stated that it was created 'in-game'....

That was created in game, and was edited in game by the in game video editor.

...so if it was created in-game exactly what physics engine are we supposed to assume its using?

I don't see any reason to get in a pissing match. I was merely answering the question of the poster as to why that scene was in the video, "because it wasn't even racing".

I don't appreciate the attitude at all, I'm trying to clarify what I clearly see as a major physics issue (if it is in-game), and while it may not have been answering me directly it did address a point I directly raised myself.

If this is in-game then, by implication, its using the physics engine for the game and what I saw in that clip has a far more fundamental bearing on the handling of cars in FM3 that crash physics do.


Scaff

 

[Bogie 19th]

You clearly stated that it was created 'in-game'....



...so if it was created in-game exactly what physics engine are we supposed to assume its using?



I don't appreciate the attitude at all, I'm trying to clarify what I clearly see as a major physics issue (if it is in-game), and while it may not have been answering me directly it did address a point I directly raised myself.

If this is in-game then, by implication, its using the physics engine for the game and what I saw in that clip has a far more fundamental bearing on the handling of cars in FM3 that crash physics do.


Scaff

Confirmed, that scene of the car stunts was NOT in-game (I made an error. It was the E3 trailer that was in-game). And I don't appreciate your attitude.

 

[Scaff]

Confirmed, that scene of the car stunts was NOT in-game (I made an error. It was the E3 trailer that was in-game). And I don't appreciate your attitude.

You need to calm down right now, at no point have I shown any form of attitude to you at all, quite the opposite.

You took direct issue with my post (pissing contest!), not the other way around.

At no point have I either directly or indirectly attacked you as a member and I would strongly advise that you re-read my posts again before passing comments like that.


Scaff

 

[Bogie 19th]

You need to calm down right now, at no point have I shown any form of attitude to you at all, quite the opposite.

You took direct issue with my post (pissing contest!), not the other way around.

At no point have I either directly or indirectly attacked you as a member and I would strongly advise that you re-read my posts again before passing comments like that. Scaff

Somebody asked how was that stunt scene related to racing. I posted that it was showing off the video editor.

Your reply to me was about physics. I never mentioned physics.

Edit: If I came off wrong to you earlier, it wasn't intentional. It's probably the whole internet and lack of seeing facial expressions.

 

[Biggles]

Damn. I bought recently Ferrari Challenge but there is no adjustment of force feedback in game, at least with my DFGT. By default it feels more like you are driving tractor in the field, totally unplayable. So I still have no idea about what the physics is and how the game plays.

It's like releasing shooter with inverted controls and no way to change it, pretty dumb. Maybe they fixed it in some patch, but I don't have internet at home and don't bother to plug it cause game must be playable straight from the box, not after N patches

I've heard this before. I think it's possible that before the patch the FFB was not adjustable. I don't remember it being like this when I got the game, but I'm not sure. On the highest setting (which may be the pre-patch default) the FFB is VERY strong. Some people choose to continue to play FC on this setting, so it IS something you can get used to. You will definitely need to update it on the internet though, as it the patch fixes quite a lot of things. F1CE also had a similar issue, as it was released without any FFB, which was eventually added via a patch.

To bring it back on topic (sort-of), I would say that I'm prepared to make allowances for small developer games like FC, Superstars V8 (or F1CE - a bit of a different case, I know) , because they simply don't have the time, money or resources that big, "flagship" games like GT & Forza have available. You wouldn't expect a small indie band to put on a stage show like The Rolling Stones or U2.

The challenge for a small developer is to put out a game that has a definite, if limited target audience. I think F1CE achieved this brilliantly, & FC, mostly because of the long delay in the appearance of GT5, also filled a particular need. The really fascinating prospect IMO, is not so much either of the big two console exclusives, which understandably have very high built-in expectations, but Shift. Is it possible that this game will surprise everyone?

 

[Scaff]

Somebody asked how was that stunt scene related to racing. I posted that it was showing off the video editor.

Your reply to me was about physics. I never mentioned physics.

No, as I have already directly quoted you as saying, you claimed (and have now corrected) that it was done 'in-game'.

If its had been done in-game (regardless of its then exported by a video editor), it is by implication using the in-game engine and the physics.

That however is totally beside the point, I took you comments and used them to comment on the game, not on you. However from that you then took issue and accused me of getting involved in a pissing contest with you.

Exactly how you can get to that point from a comment I made about the game (and having said nothing about you at all) I have no damn idea at all.

I'm more than aware of what is and isn't acceptable behaviour here at GT Planet, and as such I would once again urge you to re-read my posts.

Not once have I taken a single thing you have said out of context, I have clearly and directly quoted you and I have explained exactly how I have used your post.

That is not attitude, its reasoned and informed debate.

Now I'm off to sleep (given that its gone 2 in the morning in the UK), and I hope that this is the end of the matter. However if you feel I have slighted you in some way, then contact one of the admin staff in regard to it. They would be more than happy to look into the issue for you.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Bogie 19th]

Now I'm off to sleep (given that its gone 2 in the morning in the UK), and I hope that this is the end of the matter. However if you feel I have slighted you in some way, then contact one of the admin staff in regard to it. They would be more than happy to look into the issue for you

Scaff

No need, it was just confusion over the internet. Sweet dreams man.

 

[otago]

On the highest setting (which may be the pre-patch default) the FFB is VERY strong. Some people choose to continue to play FC on this setting, so it IS something you can get used to.

I drive a sporty car with some relatively heavy steering compare to all this family sedans, it has nothing to do with max FF settings in games. With this level it's just impossible to control the car properly.

 

[Biggles]

I drive a sporty car with some relatively heavy steering compare to all this family sedans, it has nothing to do with max FF settings in games. With this level it's just impossible to control the car properly.

I'm not sure what your point is. I was just trying to offer you helpful information about the FFB settings in FC. Whether you happen to like it or not, some people in FC do choose to drive with the FFB setting on maximum & are perfectly able to control the car. Personally, I prefer the "Medium" FFB setting in FC.

 

[niky]

I can see that this whole 'manufacturers' not wanting huge damage on 'road cars' is never going to lead to awesome carnage.. which just isn't going to please many visually (including me).. But unless GT5 pulls off better damage agreements with road cars, what can you expect?

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Damage? Meh.

We purchased a near half-million dollar state-of-the-art maritime simulator here at work that uses several PCs and five screens. The most damage you'll ever see is a solid boat sinking right before the screen fades to black.

Well...actually, the graphics are downright horrid compared to the PS3, but then again, this thing is modelling a ton more calculations in terms of wave physics, navigation and obstacles, as well as a working radar and sonar system with realistic "targets" and interference due to weather, but it looks awfully like a last-generation PC game...

The multi-million dollar simulator the Mythbusters used for their "civilian lands an airplane" myth was even funnier. Adam had a solid, uncrumpled jet sticking nose first into the ground (didn't even sink in... it just... sat... there) in a cloud of cheap 16-bit bitmap smoke.

Cosmetic damage is nice and all, but if it were a choice between better cosmetic damage modelling or better physics and racing, I'd go for the physics. All that's important in terms of damage is whether you actually suffer the consequences of damage... gears grinding, oil leaking, coolant spewed all over the track, suspension arms broken... otherwise... I can wait.

Of course... as I've been rear-ended in real life so many times it's not funny (damn tailgaters... and this is just at 5 mph!), and something always seems to break on trackdays, I'd rather just drive, thank you...

Just for the record: GTPlanet is one of the most civil forums I've come across, otherwise I wouldn't even bother with it. There are many informed, intelligent posters. However, overall there is still a strong underlying GT bias (eg. Forza has damage? Who needs damage? Anyway Forza's damage isn't that good!) - understandable, but not useful IMO. I would rather have more disinterested, objective viewpoints, because personally, I don't have any emotional attachment to GT, only to the racing sim experience.

The bottom line is: the better FM3 is, the more pressure there is on PD to produce a better product, & all of us, as consumers, will benefit from that. 👍

👍 Definitely agree with that... competition makes the breed stronger.