Forza3 Definitive Trailer: AKA Why we are better than GT5 w Pro Racer Testimonials.

[ARDA_TIRMAS]

come on, FMS is a very good game but it won't be same level vs. GT,
according to me

 

[Famine]

I'm not criticizing game developers for being unable to include roll-over. My point was, that without roll-over it's never going to be possible to get close to accurate physics, because the game is going to have to create some other, artificial kind of physics reaction in place of the roll-over.

Yes, but only for that situation.

If the driving physics are perfect except that you can't roll the car over, you don't throw the entire physics model out as inaccurate. After all, the driving physics are perfect (though even if they are, you won't simulate reality until you can simulate g loading on the driver, pedal feel and the sense of danger).

What would show the physics model up as inaccurate wouldn't be the inability to rollover. It'd be the ability to rollover in an unrealistic fashion. If the physics model was perfect, rollovers should be simulated faithfully.


As I said, I care more about how things are in the 99%+ of the time you haven't screwed up.

 

[II IVORBIGUN II]

The point of damage is to have a realistic driving simulation. One where you can't just shunt people, one where you have to use your brakes instead of using the car infront of you. Its less about damage itself than how the damage changes the way people have to drive. No damage = people bouncing off each other to get best position, damage = people being forced to finesse their way through the pack.

I shall have to disagree.

I've recently returned to playing GT5P online and oh my word what a farce. I swear it was more like being at the dodgems. If you think having damage will force people into playing correctly then think again. The main problem with many that I played against is they still have this attitude of fast in, slow out and countless times I was slammed into for simply braking in the correct spot. Having damage will not change how some people choose to race.

I can guarantee that those who want damage will be the first to complain on here if it was implented. Please tell me where is the enjoyment of racing online to only find that your car has been damaged on the 1st bend rendering your race over. I suppose if you just race against friends it will be ok but against strangers the only race I would participate in is no collisions, damage off!

Its all very well trying to be realistic but there are limitations due to being a video game. It doesn't matter how careful you are in avoiding contact because you do not have the same awareness of other racers positions as you would in real life. Yes you can look left, right, behind but sometimes this isn't possible because your too focused on the impending turn coming up.

The success of GT5 online depends on what options the host has. I sincerely hope the host can turn damage on/off, collisions on/off. Like I say against friends I will have these on but absolutely no chance against strangers!!

 

[skywolf23]

i not raced online in forever but, when i did i had races where strategicly in that twisty section on the grass that like 2nd last corner after that little straight of daytona road course if i was out in front i would be more often than not punted as i braked properly into that corner sos not to get off into the grass, spin, lose speed going way off line etc. well often other players would take care of that for me by sending me flying off into the grass.

i dare say if there was damage that situation would be severely nerfed, being that the punter would probably risk more sever damage my mussing up their front end, ruining aerodynamics, possibly mucking up their radiator or engine or the hood of their car flipping up, vs my rear bumper getting smashed, well if i am a rear engined car that could be bad for me, but either way punters would have a much riskier time of it.

i am pretty sure pd will have options for damage on and damage off online rooms, so we shall see how the two compare if the damage helps, or just encourages people to try and take people out of they fall behind or master the subtle rear quarter panel take out to knock people off the track into walls etc. this is assuming that damage is not limited to only certain racing series, which we do not know for sure so pure theory.

but the penalty system left alot to be desired, online even some really good griefers mastered the art of getting you a penaity by nudging you into short cutting a corner, or nudging you up into a wall to get the contact penalty.

not to say that i did not find the occasional clean race online seemed time of day had a lot to do with when the bumper car kids were playing and the adults were racing respectfully and seriously.

but will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

 

[WolfRacer543]

I shall have to disagree.

I've recently returned to playing GT5P online and oh my word what a farce. I swear it was more like being at the dodgems. If you think having damage will force people into playing correctly then think again. The main problem with many that I played against is they still have this attitude of fast in, slow out and countless times I was slammed into for simply braking in the correct spot. Having damage will not change how some people choose to race.

I can guarantee that those who want damage will be the first to complain on here if it was implented. Please tell me where is the enjoyment of racing online to only find that your car has been damaged on the 1st bend rendering your race over. I suppose if you just race against friends it will be ok but against strangers the only race I would participate in is no collisions, damage off!

Its all very well trying to be realistic but there are limitations due to being a video game. It doesn't matter how careful you are in avoiding contact because you do not have the same awareness of other racers positions as you would in real life. Yes you can look left, right, behind but sometimes this isn't possible because your too focused on the impending turn coming up.

The success of GT5 online depends on what options the host has. I sincerely hope the host can turn damage on/off, collisions on/off. Like I say against friends I will have these on but absolutely no chance against strangers!!

Well, I tend to be an early braker in racing games and I haven't had any issues with people running up my backside in LFS or GTR 2/Race 07/GTR evo, which have damage. Also, if people see you coming up the inside, the majority of people will take a wider line initially to give you space and prevent an accident.

In those games people actually brake a smidge earlier when following, and pay attention to the car infront braking at odd times. No one wants to get wiped out in race they've invested perhaps an hour or more in (30 minutes qualifying and 30 minute race). Accidents also happen obviously, but usually if you can get through the 1st lap you can get through the rest of the race. The only real problem online in GTR evo is the 1st few corners, people are always too aggressive through them.

Though in those games, the people too incompetant to race cleanly are also usually too slow to keep up with the faster drivers for more than 1 or 2 corners

 

[Biggles]

If the driving physics are perfect except that you can't roll the car over, you don't throw the entire physics model out as inaccurate. After all, the driving physics are perfect (though even if they are, you won't simulate reality until you can simulate g loading on the driver, pedal feel and the sense of danger).

What would show the physics model up as inaccurate wouldn't be the inability to rollover. It'd be the ability to rollover in an unrealistic fashion. If the physics model was perfect, rollovers should be simulated faithfully.

As I said, I care more about how things are in the 99%+ of the time you haven't screwed up.

Well, I wouldn't say that missing roll-over makes the entire physics model inaccurate, but given how close to the edge people drive in GT5P (& racing games in general) I think roll-over would be a fairly common occurrence if it were accurately modelled, especially with certain cars.

The whole point is you can't even tell when you've screwed up where things stand presently. Take The Eiger track for example: I'm pretty sure there would be a strong possibilty of rolling a car at the first downhill right-hander (& that would be a looong roll!). Having roll-over would force people to brake earlier & add more complexity to the driving.

 

[niky]

You mustn't be paying attention, there's been plenty of other points brought up about GT5Ps physics, even just on the past couple of pages we've talking about inability to "feel" what the car is doing, which is a physics issue, its the physics engine telling the control engine what's happening.

And I still have issues with comparing "feel" between a video game and real life. You may get some steering feel through FFB steering wheels, but without a full-motion cockpit with vibration, you're not going to get much more from the experience.

The problem with not having roll-over is that it inevitably compromises the physics. If you're pushing the car so hard into a corner that it creates the conditions for a roll-over, but you can't actually model the roll-over, you have to make the car do something. In the case of GT, that would be understeer.

Actually, I agree with you here. It's a pet theory of mine (shared in the GT4 forum in our endless discussions on physics) that the script that prevents roll-over in GT is responsible for some of the physics shortcomings of GT4.

All GTs have had an anti-roll-over script implemented, but after the possibility of exploiting that script became apparent in GT3 in the infamous 1000+ mph Escudo trick, it seems that the script was strengthened somewhat... which I feel colored GT4's physics greatly in limiting traction breakaway due to tire-skip (which is why anti-roll bar settings didn't seem to work in curing understeer...)

GT5P has remedied this problem somewhat... but until I see a car tripoding around the corner in GT5, I won't call this problem fixed.

i dunno it is not exactly easy to roll a car unless you do something incredibly stupid at high speed. i kinda laughed at the teenage top gear when they claimed that as a teen that must roll their cars over and hide the damage challenge. i did a lot of stupid things as a teen in cars and never rolled one.

Weren't stupid enough. Rolled once, spun twice. Fishtailed a few times in the rain. All in good fun.

 

[Famine]

Well, I wouldn't say that missing roll-over makes the entire physics model inaccurate

But you did...

without roll-over it's never going to be possible to get close to accurate physics

Accurately simulating a rollover should be an emergent property of an accurate physics model if rollover is permitted.

Conversely, inaccurately simulating a rollover is an emergent property of an inaccurate physics model.

If a rollover isn't permitted, it's not an indicator that the physics model isn't accurate - merely that there is a set function that stops the physics continuing with what it ought to simulate. Without a rollover being permitted, we can't use it as an indicator of the rest of the physics model. With it, we can.


Currently we cannot infer any clues about GT's physics models from rollovers, as they aren't permitted. We can infer that FM3's current physics model is flawed at least for the conditions used in the video demonstration because its simulation of a rollover under those conditions is flawed. Those conditions might be an early build not representative of the final game, or an Arcade setting - we can't draw any conclusions about the final product at this point.

... given how close to the edge people drive in GT5P (& racing games in general) I think roll-over would be a fairly common occurrence if it were accurately modelled, especially with certain cars.

The whole point is you can't even tell when you've screwed up where things stand presently. Take The Eiger track for example: I'm pretty sure there would be a strong possibilty of rolling a car at the first downhill right-hander (& that would be a looong roll!). Having roll-over would force people to brake earlier & add more complexity to the driving.

I agree entirely. People tend to behave to the limits of what they know is permissable (the Naughtiness Principle - people will always be as naughty as they can within the boundaries that they know or believe they can get away with). Rollover and damage will expand those limits and boundaries and, thus, the gaming experience.

However, limited to just the physics model, we cannot make any claims as to how faithful to reality the physics using these events as they aren't simulated. And as I said, I'd much rather the simulation was concentrated on the parts where you're not screwing up - because you spend far more time not screwing up and a sloppy physics model there will only serve to frustrate.

 

[Dave A]

Well, I wouldn't say that missing roll-over makes the entire physics model inaccurate, but given how close to the edge people drive in GT5P (& racing games in general) I think roll-over would be a fairly common occurrence if it were accurately modelled, especially with certain cars.

The whole point is you can't even tell when you've screwed up where things stand presently. Take The Eiger track for example: I'm pretty sure there would be a strong possibilty of rolling a car at the first downhill right-hander (& that would be a looong roll!). Having roll-over would force people to brake earlier & add more complexity to the driving.

Not really, I don't think roll over would be a remotely common occurence except in certain big crashes. Even still, GT5 does simulate the car yawing to one side, I think the cars can roll to about 45 degrees but then they get pulled back so if people were driving so as to roll the cars you'd see the cars leaning with only two wheels on the ground or none if it was mid air.

 

[WolfRacer543]

Well, I wouldn't say that missing roll-over makes the entire physics model inaccurate, but given how close to the edge people drive in GT5P (& racing games in general) I think roll-over would be a fairly common occurrence if it were accurately modelled, especially with certain cars.

The whole point is you can't even tell when you've screwed up where things stand presently. Take The Eiger track for example: I'm pretty sure there would be a strong possibilty of rolling a car at the first downhill right-hander (& that would be a looong roll!). Having roll-over would force people to brake earlier & add more complexity to the driving.

In LFS, which has roll over, its actually pretty common in some of the street cars (XF GTI and UF 1000, a FWD hatchback and a mini look-a-like). Pushing hard into certain corners if you catch the kerb badly you can roll them. In fact you can modify the UF 1000 suspension to screw it up so badly that it'll roll on almost any corner if you push hard enough

And I still have issues with comparing "feel" between a video game and real life. You may get some steering feel through FFB steering wheels, but without a full-motion cockpit with vibration, you're not going to get much more from the experience.

Well of course you will never get perfect feedback, but its a huge issue and is perfectly valid to compare given some games do it well and others do it bad. Race 07/GTR evo has some great feedback, LFS also has great feedback. They tell you what the car is doing in a relatively realistic way. The other day I was playing TOCA Race Driver 3 with a G25 and it has aweful feedback. At the end of the day, when playing a racing game, what do you get? The sound through the speakers, the picture on your TV and the feedback through your wheel... I'd argue they are all equally valid. Take away any of them and the experience just drops dramatically. Even sound, not just from an immersion aspect, but also things like hearing the fine line between tire scrub and the squeal of tires breaking loose tells you a lot about what the car is doing.

 

[Jay]

but until I see a car tripoding around the corner in GT5, I won't call this problem fixed.

Lifting tyres off the ground in Gran Turismo is one of my dreams (without help of jumps, bumps or curbs)

Fishtailed a few times in the rain. All in good fun.

Only a few times? When I was a teenager all I did was fish tail in the rain, if it rained I was sliding around and this is before the drifting craze started. I was very silly but very lucky the same time, I spun quite a few times when pushing limits but I never had any major issues resulted.

Sold my first car many years later with no body damage (besides minor nicks) with the only pre-existing mechanical part left from when I bought it was the engine.

 

[Biggles]

Biggles
Well, I wouldn't say that missing roll-over makes the entire physics model inaccurate
But you did...

Biggles
without roll-over it's never going to be possible to get close to accurate physics
Accurately simulating a rollover should be an emergent property of an accurate physics model if rollover is permitted.

Conversely, inaccurately simulating a rollover is an emergent property of an inaccurate physics model.

If a rollover isn't permitted, it's not an indicator that the physics model isn't accurate - merely that there is a set function that stops the physics continuing with what it ought to simulate. Without a rollover being permitted, we can't use it as an indicator of the rest of the physics model. With it, we can.

OK, I'll restate more precisely: the physics can be accurate (at least as accurate as is possible for a video game sim to achieve) in areas where roll-over is not an issue, but if roll-over cannot be modelled, then some inaccurate substitute for roll-over has to be implemented in situations where roll-over would occur.

I think it IS a fairly significant factor in GT5P (& other racing games) because people tend to drive at the absolute limit in a sim, where IRL they would tend to leave a margin of error out of safety concerns, so potential roll-over situations, in the sim, might occur fairly frequently.

Anyway, if GT5 includes Nascar they're going to have to have roll-overs - without roll-overs Nascar is just a bunch of guys going round ... and ... round ... and round... and round in the same direction.

 

[Pingwhen]

wow 1003 replies that is a thread in a half.

 

[Andrew C]

There have been a few days when like 4 or 5 pages got added on... It was a 🤬 to read it all.

 

[Lucas]

The fact that the thread doesn't hold any relevance to GT5 makes it all more funny.

 

[Andrew C]

I know.... It seems like only a few times out of all the FM3 and GT5 trolling have there actually been decent discussions.

 

[3Axis]

Lifting tyres off the ground in Gran Turismo is one of my dreams (without help of jumps, bumps or curbs)

The only car which ever did this was the [R] Dodge Concept Car in GT1. But it was a spazmo car to drive.

 

[ST-2]

The only car which ever did this was the [R] Dodge Concept Car in GT1. But it was a spazmo car to drive.

Dunno, I managed to make my Focus RS and Clio 172 do this in GT4. You jst have to have incrediby stiff suspension settings. I think I might have a picture of my Clio somewhere, I'll try and hunt it down. But it was possible...

 

[Dave A]

I've managed to do that with cars since GT1, I remember having a Mazda Demio in GT1 tha could do it.

I don't think there was a [R] Dodge concept car in GT1 though was there? Only the road versions. GT2 had that silver Dodge Concept car LM race car.

 

[ST-2]

I've managed to do that with cars since GT1, I remember having a Mazda Demio in GT1 tha could do it.

I don't think there was a [R] Dodge concept car in GT1 though was there? Only the road versions. GT2 had that silver Dodge Concept car LM race car.

GT2 also had a Gold Dodge Concept car, can't remember what it was called though...

EDIT- It was the Dodger Copperhead Concept

 

[SUPER NUMBBER]

The fact that the thread doesn't hold any relevance to GT5 makes it all more funny.

It's about the hits.

 

[nk4e]

How are all the people sweating or it looks like they are sweating in one of the videos...it must be another axe commercial.

 

[3Axis]

I don't think there was a [R] Dodge concept car in GT1 though was there? Only the road versions. GT2 had that silver Dodge Concept car LM race car.

There was the stock orange Dodge Copperhead in the Dodge dealership, though it couldn't be obtained unless you pass the B license with all gold. The [R] Dodge Concept Car was the dark violet version with gold rims. I remember the inside tires would always start lifting off the ground as though it had the centre of gravity of an SUV.

 

[Dave A]

I just remember thoes as being just different colours of the orange one. Oh well, shows what time does to a man.

 

[jagenigma]

Hmm... Well, If people want realism then why don't they just try becoming professional racers. There is your realism. The point of Racing sims like GT, Forza, GRiD, GTR and ToCA, are to give us the chance to drive cars we may never ever drive.
To make any racing game completely real these things would have to be in the games
Death (not being able to continue on your save file so you have to start over again from the start because you died)
Complete car destruction
engine fires
Flying out of your window if you crash too hard (thats what made gtaiv fun LOL!!!)
Tire deformation
Driving with a driving wheel as opposed to the controller(not everyone can afford one)
the ability to communicate with your race crew,
rolling over like a real car would
Not being able to bump off of a wall at 160mph and being able to drive away from the crash like it was a 1 mile per hour crash
Bring all of these things into a racing simulator so these uninformed people will realize that their gaming experience will suck because they wanted realism as opposed to just a racing simulator.

 

[paskowitz]

Hmm... Well, If people want realism then why don't they just try becoming professional racers. There is your realism. The point of Racing sims like GT, Forza, GRiD, GTR and ToCA, are to give us the chance to drive cars we may never ever drive.
To make any racing game completely real these things would have to be in the games
Death (not being able to continue on your save file so you have to start over again from the start because you died)
Complete car destruction
engine fires
Flying out of your window if you crash too hard (thats what made gtaiv fun LOL!!!)
Tire deformation
Driving with a driving wheel as opposed to the controller(not everyone can afford one)
the ability to communicate with your race crew,
rolling over like a real car would
Not being able to bump off of a wall at 160mph and being able to drive away from the crash like it was a 1 mile per hour crash
Bring all of these things into a racing simulator so these uninformed people will realize that their gaming experience will suck because they wanted realism as opposed to just a racing simulator.

I have got an even better thing it would require, THE LAWS OF PHYSICS. So much goes into making a car move it is ridiculous. To be just like real life would take a monumental amount of data.

 

[jagenigma]

As a sidenote to my previous post, I saw the GT5 trailer and the Forza 3 trailer. I have to say, GT5 shows more promise towards the content that it has like the regular GT game, WRC, and NASCAR. It shows more real racing than the Forza 3 trailer. The trailer for Forza 3, shows cars doing a bunch of drifting powersliding and a car passing through 2 other cars powersliding in a circle 180 degrees from each other. The GT series has never been that kind of racing sim to show off like that and PD always been a respectful game developer. Kazunori Yamauchi has never gone on the offensive or the defensive for the GT series, never made a claim that "we are the best at what we do, no one is better than us, every other game is lackluster and just plainly sucks" All he has done was create GT and have other game companies copy, reverse engineer, and recompile GT to make their own racing games. But Fueling the war between consoles that should have been dead already comes T10 attacking GT saying that it is the Best Racing game of all time. Granted, Forza really looks good, and I would get it but I am not about to spend 400 Bucks on a 360 just for Forza 3. As I see it, with The trailer of Forza 3, it will attract ricers. The kind of race gamers who think they are good just because they are behind the wheel of a honda civic and really don't know how to handle other cars in the game. The GT series is a veteran to the Racing sim world with other games always trying to replicate it but never succeeding. The only game that I could say has surpassed the GT series would be GTR on the PC. It was a really great game. Great damage physics and driving physics. Need for Speed games are literally just carbon copies of each others with different tracks. ToCA and GRiD have also become great racing games and have been the ones to have complete damage incorporated into their games. These games in my opinion are much better than Forza and are worth buying. And comparing the trailer to Forza 3 game play, the game play seems rather lacking of what the trailer promises. Drifting, powersliding in a circle, speeding down every turn. Is it me or does it seem impossible to do this in a REAL racing simulator?

I have got an even better thing it would require, THE LAWS OF PHYSICS. So much goes into making a car move it is ridiculous. To be just like real life would take a monumental amount of data.

Yeah, I guess people lost what the purpose of what a game is supposed to be, thats why there are racing games such as mario kart, wipeout, Crash team racing, fatal inertia, and full auto.

 

[niky]

Dunno, I managed to make my Focus RS and Clio 172 do this in GT4. You jst have to have incrediby stiff suspension settings. I think I might have a picture of my Clio somewhere, I'll try and hunt it down. But it was possible...

Car has to be twenty feet away from the nearest curb or it didn't happen.

Only time you can lift a wheel in GT4 is if you're bouncing it off a curb or track-surface bump or bouncing it off the wall.

 

[SUPER NUMBBER]

Hmm... Well, If people want realism then why don't they just try becoming professional racers. There is your realism. The point of Racing sims like GT, Forza, GRiD, GTR and ToCA, are to give us the chance to drive cars we may never ever drive.
To make any racing game completely real these things would have to be in the games
Death (not being able to continue on your save file so you have to start over again from the start because you died)
Complete car destruction
engine fires
Flying out of your window if you crash too hard (thats what made gtaiv fun LOL!!!)
Tire deformation
Driving with a driving wheel as opposed to the controller(not everyone can afford one)
the ability to communicate with your race crew,
rolling over like a real car would
Not being able to bump off of a wall at 160mph and being able to drive away from the crash like it was a 1 mile per hour crash
Bring all of these things into a racing simulator so these uninformed people will realize that their gaming experience will suck because they wanted realism as opposed to just a racing simulator.

Dare I quote myself?

Oh, I KNOW for a fact these problems don't exist because:

A) We already have several...SEVERAL games with damage modeling, and none of them have these issues.

B) Even in the extremely unlikely event that PD wanted to display death in GT (unnecessary, really), manufacturers draw the line there, no death is to be shown, and it never has been, even on the many current games that have damage modeling.

C) Even in the IMPOSSIBLE chance that manufacturers would allow death to be shown, it would just be dealt with in the same way other games handle death. Saying the game is gonna "wipe your save clean and make you start from 0%", or "make you buy another copy"; it's just rhetoric from those who fear not being able to compete if they damage their car everytime they hit an object.

YESSSSS!!!!

 

[ST-2]

Car has to be twenty feet away from the nearest curb or it didn't happen.

Only time you can lift a wheel in GT4 is if you're bouncing it off a curb or track-surface bump or bouncing it off the wall.

Unfortunatly, I no longer have my GT4 photo mode picture's, but it wasn't by bouncing off kerbs or flying over jumps. If you had a stiff set-up on some cars, it was possible for them to lift the inside rear wheel when turning hard into a corner, you'd get that hopping sensation, thus lifting the wheel. All I can suggest is, if you still have GT4 (and I don't anymore), then get a 172 and have a play yourself. 👍