Gay Marriage

[Der Alta]

Well, I'll step up to the plate on this one and try and swing a bat for the other team.

According to danoff it is a preference. In other words a choice. Straight from dictionary.com "To choose or be in the habit of choosing as more desirable or as having more value" Are you saying that HK has a preference in his bedroom and not in his lifestyle? I think that HK has a gay lifestyle, not a gay fetish.

My wife has a cheerleader and a catholic school girl outfit. (If she reads this, I'm dead.) Why are these a fetish of mine? Simple interaction that happened at puberty and have always turned me on since. These fetishes are based on emotions. Emotions are choices.

So preference may not be the exact word your looking for because according to the defenition you have to make a choice. Genetics are not a choice, so can you elaborate on:

fetishes of all kinds and varieties are not rooted in an original choice, but a preference that came about through psychological (and perhaps some genetic) foundations

I can understand the physological implications you make, but the genetic choice confuses me a bit.

AO

 

[Duke]

I don't know that I buy the logic that anything outside of strict instinctual behaviour is a "choice". Certainly it is possible that homosexuality is a product of environment as much as it is genetics... but that doesn't mean it becomes a choice, which implies a conscious was decision made.

I have a clear and unswerving preference for brunettes instead of blondes. I didn't choose this; it just happened. Is it genetics or exposure? I have no clue. I certainly can't point to a memorable erotic event early in my life that would explain it. I just know that if you put two attractive women who were nearly twins next to each other, I would prefer the brunette to the blonde. This has nothing to do with procreation, either, since both women can be assumed equally fertile, and hair color will not indicate suitability as a parent. Nonetheless I have a clear preference.

So I call that an "emotion", if you will, but I have no choice about it. It's not extensive enough that I could not perform with a blonde woman, but there is no logical difference saying that's impossible.

I also don't necessarily buy the statement that homosexuality is anything more than a bedroom preference. Hondakid loves someone and has formed a coupling with that person. So have I. They go out and do things they enjoy together. So do we. They have jobs and hobbies. So do we. They talk, dance, eat at good restaurants, drink good beer. So do we. They argue sometimes. So do we. When they're happy, they like to touch each other and express their affection physically. So do we.

So far I'm not seeing much distinction between our lifestyles.

 

[Danoff]

I'm fine with calling sexual preference (whether it's for cheerleaders or men : ) an emotional response. But emotions are not choices.

Consider this.

If one of your loved ones dies and you become sad, did you chose to be sad? Could you chose not to be sad?


Now about the preference / genetics argument.

Psychology could definitely play a role in why one person prefers blondes or brunettes. So could genetics though. Think about the kids that prefer the same type of mate that their parents or their grandparents prefer. I'll have to go find some scientific studies to back it up, but I really do think that you can be genetically predisposed to prefering large women to skinny women, or preferring brunettes to blondes, or to preferring men to women.

 

[Danoff]

By the way,

Thank you both for supporting my argument about all of us having preferences in the bedroom. I appreciate the personal examples.

 

[Pako]

I grew up in Hawaii, for which I attribute by likeness for brunettes. Freud would say that it was because my mom's hair is black. Maybe...., I have found Blondes attractive, but I made it up in my mind to seek out brunettes when looking for a long term partner.

Outside of HondaKid, I knew someone that thought that he might be gay, or at least have the possibility of being gay. It was something that he struggle with for a very long time. A little background history on this guy…, when he was a kid, age 5-6 he was molested by another kid. He never felt molested but the other boy was 4 years older than he was. Without getting into detail, they shared touching each other. He remembers that it felt good, and never really considered it as being molested, but it always left a question if he was gay or not because it did feel good for another “same-gender” person to interact with him that way.

In dealing with this struggle of his, he decided that it would be his choice to decide his sexual lifestyle. Now he’s happily married, and has kids, and never looks back, but he still maintains that it’s a choice. He compares it to being faithful to his wife. He has to choose to stay faithful to his wife, and to not choose to have affairs. He chooses to continue to love her, as he has decided that ‘love’ is a choice. Infatuations are emotions, long commitments of love for another person is a choice and a decision that is made.

Anyhow, that’s my little story for today.

 

[milefile]

Will anybody admit it? No. So I'll say it statistically. Something like 80% of boys have a homosexual experience during early puberty. It sounds like your friend, whom I will assume for now is Christian, had a moral dillemma, and made a big deal out of a little thing.

 

[Danoff]

Bisexual people have a choice as to who to select for a life mate. People who are attracted to both blondes and brunettes (men and women) have a choice of which to stick with. But people who are not at all attracted to blondes don't really have that choice without living in misery.

(ok, i know hair dye exists, but I'm speaking more generally)

 

[Pako]

He was only a kid, of course it was little.

I don't know, your guess is as good as mine, just going off of what he said. Feel free to read as much or as little into his experience, just going off of what he said.

 

[Duke]

Originally posted by Pako
Outside of HondaKid, I knew someone that thought that he might be gay, or at least have the possibility of being gay. It was something that he struggle with for a very long time. A little background history on this guy…, when he was a kid, age 5-6 he was molested by another kid. He never felt molested but the other boy was 4 years older than he was. Without getting into detail, they shared touching each other. He remembers that it felt good, and never really considered it as being molested, but it always left a question if he was gay or not because it did feel good for another “same-gender” person to interact with him that way.

Interesting that you choose to say that he was "molested" even though he himself apparently doesn't think so. I admit the age difference is somewhat significant, but in this case not alarmingly so. Some early-adolescent fooling around doesn't make someone gay or even potentially so. I'll agree with milefile that probably 80% of us have had some exploratory experiences like that. In fact, until near puberty, we're all homosexual - how often as kids did we think girls were stupid? How often did they think boys were gross? Each preferred the company of their own kind.

I have a good friend who is gay. He knew as a child he was different from most people, well before he even knew what sex was of any type. I won't say he fought it, but he's explored both sides of his sexuality, and he's determined that he is gay. It's not a decision on his part either; he's tried both and he likes men better.

All of this discussion is interesting, but it still begs the question of why it matters whether it is a choice or not. I'll go back to my original parallel of interracial marriage. I don't think anybody here would argue that that's immoral.

 

[Danoff]

There are two levels of choice that I can see present in the discussion. Preference I would argue is not a matter of choice (unless arrived at logically). I do not prefer the taste of asparagus. I did not chose to not prefer the taste, I just don’t. I don’t know exactly why. Maybe it’s genetic, maybe it’s age, maybe it’s environmental. All I know is that I never would have actively chosen not to like a food. Because in my book, the more food you like, the more likely you are to eat food you like… and that’s a good thing. So logically if I had had a choice, I would have chosen to like asparagus. Point is, I didn’t have that choice.

Ok that was redundantly redundant.

So choice of the preferences that are within the context of this discussion is right out. And that was the first level of choice that was up for debate.

The next level is the choice of whether or not to “live a lie”. Even though I prefer not to eat asparagus (or have sex with redheads or whatever) I can chose to do so. It might be hard, I might have to force it a little, gagging all the way, but I can do it. The result, however, is that I don’t have a good time. So I chose not to live the lie. So I don’t really consider that much of a choice. It sucks, I’ll do it if I someone puts a gun to my head, but lots of people would do lots of things if someone put a gun to their head… I don’t really consider those things options either.

So I don’t believe that the homosexual’s choice to live a lie is really much of a choice. If you are gay, you really have to indulge yourself. Imagine if the social norm was to be homosexual. You heterosexual guys could go have sex with other guys, you’d just really hate it. Not much of a choice now is it?

So I’ll argue that neither of the options, which preference to choose (impossible), or whether to live a lie (really sucks), are choices.

So I rest my case that homosexuals don’t really have a choice. Unless they’re bi and either gender is a viable selection.

Now, if it were a choice and they chose to be gay, I still don’t think that means you shouldn’t allow them to get married. If bisexuals want to have a homosexual life partner and want to get married, who am I to say that they cannot? Even if that person had the ability to chose a heterosexual life partner, who am I to say that that is an unacceptable decision?

Homosexuality has been in humanity for centuries. The Roman’s were virtually all bi-sexual right? In our culture, it happens to be frowned upon. Who’s to say our culture has the right way of looking at it? Why not let other’s make up their own minds?

 

[milefile]

Actually, Western Civilization is based on the Greco-Roman tradition. And they don't call it "greek" for nothin'. Danoff already pointed out the Romans' debauchery.

 

[HondaKid86]

First of all, I should apologize for my inexcusable latency. As I said before, when you have friends out there that don't ask any questions and accept you for who you are, and a full tank of gas to go and see them, it's much more fulfilling to spend an evening with them instead of having to defend your very being on some Internet forum. Not that I haven't spent many a night doing that during my renegade days... this old dog simply isn't militant anymore, though. Still, I'm going to try to tie this off... you'll have to excuse me if my effort seems half assed or lacking passion. What can I say? I'm tired.

"Now I ask, did you look at yourself in a mirror? Probably not. My post got you too heated and you had to respond as soon as you read it. Did you take 2 hours and read my post. Think about the thoughts that I posted, or simply respond in the defensive manner you are so accustomed to?"

You have to understand that I've been through this so many times before. Why consider a point that I've deeply considered many times before, never reaching the point of self-doubt, when all it's going to do is make me feel like all of this having to "consider" means I'm not normal and I have to justify my existence to someone (or worse, many people)?

My guess is that you are so used to defending your lifestyle, you've never looked at the fact that your body is built to procreate. Argue that fact. Tell me your body (Not your brain, mind, or emotion) is not designed to (as you so eloquently posted) UPLOAD YOUR DNA.

I suppose it is, but that doesn't change the fact that somewhere along the line, something is different for me. It is physically impossible for me to procreate because I cannot reach orgasm while having sexual relations with a woman. I'm sorry if that's vulgar, but you want a physical answer and you've got it.

"Genetic Mistake"

If you want to debate something, you need to choose your words carefully. There's a lot of difference between someone with a genetic "difference" and a genetic "mistake". I'm not trying to romp on you with the PC bat; there's a clear and marked difference there, and any considerate or rational person should see that.

You won't accept "I'm gay because I'm gay" as an answer... but that's honestly all that I can give you. Whenever someone asks me, "Haven't you ever thought of having sex with a girl before?", all I can do is turn it around and ask them if they'd ever had any homosexual desires before. You might not believe it, but my sexuality developed just like yours: I didn't come to a crossroads, I didn't have to evaluate my options, and I didn't exactly know what was going on. I must have been 11 or 12... all I know is that Mr. Happy rose to the occasion when I saw something I liked, and I never felt the desire to seek out any scantily clad women. You're straight because you're straight... you never 'chose' to be straight, you just were. That's exactly how I feel.

Funnily enough, the 'fetish' approach hit closest to how I feel about all of this. I'm not sure what makes you think that I live a 'gay lifestyle'... I don't parade around with a rainbow on my back or anything. I'm not sure how someone lives a 'straight lifestyle', for that matter... heh. One of the jokes I tell is that I'm not gay unless I've got a boyfriend... and even then, I'm not gay until after dark.

By the way, I don't have a 'partner', a boyfriend, or anything like that as previously suggested in others' posts. If you know a tall pale guy that has an unhealthy obsession with cars and knows how to drive a manual transmission, give him my number, would ya?

 

[Der Alta]

I too have spent quite a bit of time looking back over this.

I'll eat a whole plate ful of crow for this, but you've given me a insight on what I need to think about this subject.

Had a long conversation with my wife and her thoughts on Saturday. Not a heated argument, but a good conversation.

One thing that she pointed out was that every fetus develops as a female, until a wash of chemicals changes the developmental process. If the chemicals weren't strong enough, the fetus remained a female. If the chemical wash was stronger it changed the process to develop as a male.

Her thoughts were "What if the chemical wash was strong, but not strong enough?" The body develops male, but retains female intuitions. I've not researched it fully, but the theory would dictate that people can and are born gay. Can I have a bit of Salt and pepper with this crow?

I only supposed that you had a gay lifestyle, because you are gay. Forgive my rough interpretation, but your gay lifestyle is probably very similar to my straight lifestyle. With the only difference is who occupies our bed.

I profusely apologize for my attitude earlier. I've adamantly defended my thoughts in that way for quite some time, so it comes with a bit of aggravation to see it's achilles heal exposed.

I was beginning to think you'd not return. Glad to see you did and hope to see you around in the future.

BTW: I'm 5'11, pale (50 hours a week in an office will do that) have and unhealthy obssesion with Porsches and believe that Manual is the only way to drive a car. You can call, but I'm not certain the relationship would develop. I wish you luck in finding happiness.

Till later,

AO

 

[Danoff]

I'm also 5' 11', pale, and love to drive manual. But I'm spoken for.

DA that was very big of you. I don't think I have seen (in my short time of visiting this forum) anyone back down that gracefully. You just got a whole lot of respect from me.

That being said, it's almost painful for me to mention that the argument still exists on the level of "what if it were a choice?".

I don't believe it's even the case with homosexuals (I'll cite my earlier fetish approach to back that up). But what about bisexuals? They have a choice and could chose a homosexual or heterosexual relationship. Should this be forbidden? Is there really a such thing as a bisexual anyway?

 

[Pako]

Wow, I'm also 5'11", and naturally pale. That's interesting Der Alta, I guess I had always knew that, but have never thought of it that way. BTW - That chemical actually causes brain damage in us guys... That's a good way to make some humble points with your wife.

Thanks HondaKid for taking the time to express your feelings and thoughts on this subject.

How's the Crow taste Der Alta, it's not too bad, eh?

 

[Pako]

Anyhow, read something last week that kinda hit home for me, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". So, I guess my final stance on the subject is to each his own. I cannot judge someone else’s lifestyle and/or choices or natural makeup of sexual desires even if, and especially when I don't understand them completely.

These are choices that I have no control over, nor do I have any influence or really any business to interfere one way or the other.

Perhaps out of all of this, the sanctity of marriage can be preserved. It seems, and this is my opinion backed up by statistics, that marriages seem to hold little value for the general populace. It seems that if things are going rough and just not working out, you can just discard your vows and pick out a new lifelong companion. It's sad really.

*picking crow feathers out of my teeth*

 

[Danoff]

agreed

 

[Vasco]

Wow...a lot of opinions flying around here...I'm pretty much agreeing with what duke says here...

 

[Ethix101]

Originally posted by M5Power
Is there any actual reason why it should be banned in a 'free' society?

This coming from somebody who'd be first to ban Gay Pride day.

I say let people do what makes them happy..so I'm not against gay marriage. I do get irritated about the Pride parades and stuff though. (Insert Race/Gender/sexual preference, etc) Pride Parades, I don't think they should have them at all. Why do people have to go around and be like "Hey Look at Me..I'm Proud of Myself!!!" The way I look at it is.."That's awesome!...now be quiet" hehe. (not trying to piss people off..this is just my opinion)

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by Ethix101
I do get irritated about the Pride parades and stuff though. (Insert Race/Gender/sexual preference, etc) Pride Parades, I don't think they should have them at all. Why do people have to go around and be like "Hey Look at Me..I'm Proud of Myself!!!" The way I look at it is.."That's awesome!...now be quiet" hehe. (not trying to piss people off..this is just my opinion)

Me too. Reminds me of the Simpsons episode when the gay pride parade goes right past their house and they're chanting "We're here! We're queer! Get use to it!" To which lisa replies "We already are used to it."

 

[mayorbill11]

this thread is really long, but i'm going to throw in my opinion anyway.

gay marriage is wrong and gays are wrong, i seriously cannot grasp the concept of a man wanting penis.

i will agree that what people do really isn't the government's business, that doesn't change my opinion on the entire deal.

gay rights have nothing to do with black rights, two completely different issues.

 

[M6Power]

Originally posted by mayorbill11
this thread is really long, but i'm going to throw in my opinion anyway.

We all already know your opinion, considering you've used the term 'gay' as an insult in the past.

gay marriage is wrong and gays are wrong, i seriously cannot grasp the concept of a man wanting penis.

You enjoy the Pontiac Sunbird. I personally feel it is the worst car ever made.

Some people have different tastes than others.

gay rights have nothing to do with black rights, two completely different issues.

Different, and yet the same.

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by mayorbill11
this thread is really long, but i'm going to throw in my opinion anyway.

gay marriage is wrong and gays are wrong, i seriously cannot grasp the concept of a man wanting penis.

i will agree that what people do really isn't the government's business, that doesn't change my opinion on the entire deal.

gay rights have nothing to do with black rights, two completely different issues.

It's convenient when people make ignorant comments, and go on to explain said ignorance, which compounds the ignorance by demonstrating an ignorance of the ignorance. It's a vicious cycle.

 

[Duke]

Originally posted by mayorbill11
gay marriage is wrong and gays are wrong, i seriously cannot grasp the concept of a man wanting penis.

I seriously cannot grasp the idea of a man wanting a woman with shaved pubic hair, but judging by the pornography industry, many many people do want that.

So what? Who cares what concepts you can or can not grasp? What does that have to do with someone else's sexual preference?

 

[Sage]

Originally posted by mayorbill11
...i seriously cannot grasp the concept of a man wanting penis.

I can't grasp physics yet, but does that mean it's all wrong?

Like milefile said, it's convenient to use ignorance to justify ignorance.

*sigh*

 

[mayorbill11]

i'm not saying i dislike people with said sexual preferences, i'm simply stating that i dislike the preferences. i could be friends with someone who drives a yugo, and think they're completely mad for buying one, can't i?

as for the sunbird, i'm getting it for pretty much free.

 

[mayorbill11]

Originally posted by M6Power
Different, and yet the same.

yet still very different.

 

[Duke]

Originally posted by mayorbill11
i'm not saying i dislike people with said sexual preferences, i'm simply stating that i dislike the preferences.

Ummmm, nice try, but you pretty much invalidated that with your original statement:

gay marriage is wrong and gays are wrong

There's no ambiguity there at all.

 

[mayorbill11]

yes there is.

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by mayorbill11
yes there is.

Could you point it out to me? I don't see it.