Gay Marriage

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Originally posted by HondaKid86
There are three types of people that participate in the "Is it a choice" debate:

1. The people that know that it's not a choice.
2. The people that honestly question whether it's a choice or not, and are receptive to what others have to say about it.
3. The people that are dead stuck in believing that homosexuality is a conscious choice, and that cannot be swayed.
You missed a fourth type - people who couldn't care less if it's a choice or not, as long as it makes everybody involved happy and satisfied. Count me as a Number 4.
👍 👍 👍 👍
I'm glad to see an actual gay person weigh in here, Hondakid. You've got my heartfelt support for being open about it, and living in the lion's den, so to speak. Keep the faith, man. But if you move North, steer clear of Alberta. I hear they're challenging the ruling.

[edit] Fixed the incompetent tag, and added a fourth 👍 to reflect the four types of people mentioned. [/edit]
 
Originally posted by neon_duke
You missed a fourth type - people who couldn't care less if it's a choice or not, as long as it makes everybody involved happy and satisfied. Count me as a Number 4.
👍 👍 👍
I'm glad to see an actual gay person weigh in here, [bHondakid
. You've got my heartfelt support for being open about it, and living in the lion's den, so to speak. Keep the faith, man. But if you move North, steer clear of Alberta. I hear they're challenging the ruling. [/B]

I'm only quoting this post to remark on neon_duke's incompetent use of the bold tags, and his overuse of the thumbs up smiley.

Alberta and Saskatchewan are Canada's conservative midwest.
 
Originally posted by DGB454
Well I'm sorry about what happened to your wife. Just because she is Catholic doesn't mean she worships idols.

I have a number of friends who believe as I do for the most part and the differences aren't worth mentioning.
I'm glad to hear that. Certain faiths are better about it than others. But it is pretty pervasive and institutionalized, even if it is not always so flagrant.
I have never seen hate from the churches I have been to.
The doors to Heaven are open to anyone who believes in Christ and accepts him as their Savior. That simple.
The problem is, there are very few interpretations of "A man shall not lie with another man as with a wife; it is an abomination" that allow someone to accept Christ as their Saviour and accept their homosexuality as part of their own humanity. They may have a possible, unknown saviour if they renounce a fundamental, concrete part of themselves. That's not much of a choice. I believe the term "between a rock and a hard place" applies there.
 
Originally posted by DGB454
Well I'm sorry about what happened to your wife. Just because she is Catholic doesn't mean she worships idols.

I'm in agreeance here. Just because us Catholics pray to Mary and believe in Saints doesn't mean we worship idols.
 
Originally posted by HondaKid86
I'm actually supposed to be in bed right now; tomorrow, I'm driving my Civic to Bay City and Austin to sightsee. Texas's history and culture intrigue me... I'm not sure why, but I feel a sincere connection to this state.

I'm from the Rio Grande Valley... nobody ever talks about the RGV being a part of Texas because it's unworthy. You say Texas isn't progressive? The RGV is the epitome of an archaic region with blindly conservative viewpoints rooted in hate that can be traced back to generations past. Believe me, I understand where you're coming from.

It doesn't matter how many gay people are on GTP... it only matters how many open minded people there are here. Threads like this are indicative of a populace's receptiveness to tolerance; in short, I know who my friends at GTP are. Pako has always been an object of my admiration from afar because of his band and knack for making avatars, but the posts that I've seen from him in this thread have been nothing less than shocking. At the GTF (my home forum, I guess you could say), all of our moderators are very open minded and promote tolerance at every opportunity. That's not what I've seen here, and it's disappointing.

I'd just like to point out that there's a difference between being Christian and being judgemental and audacious.

There are three types of people that participate in the "Is it a choice" debate:

1. The people that know that it's not a choice.
2. The people that honestly question whether it's a choice or not, and are receptive to what others have to say about it.
3. The people that are dead stuck in believing that homosexuality is a conscious choice, and that cannot be swayed.

To the number twos out there: I have no incentive to lie to you. I have no reason to deceive you or mislead you. I hope that you'll believe me when I honestly tell you that being gay is not something that I chose. Why would I choose to become a part of the most hated part of society in modern times? Why would I choose to make my mother cry, to make my own life harder, to subject myself to the constant scruitiny of others, and to deprive myself of such elemental indications of being as marriage and a sense of normalcy?

For what it's worth, I am a practicing Catholic, and I study Buddhist theology. I know that God loves me... there are hateful flyers at church sometimes. What can I do? I just ignore them and reassure myself that I'm loved. God doesn't care about something as petty as someone's sexual preference... as long as I enjoy every day with a fervent passion, I know that I'm in good standing.

I apologize publicly to you and anyone else here at GTP that I may have offended with my opinions in regards to this matter. What can I say, I am being totally honest in how I feel in regards to this, but am sorry that conveying my feelings and opinions are at the expense of others. I do not hate or judge, but I cannot be expected to condone or support that which I do not believe in. Call it what you will. Perhaps in time, my opinions will change or maybe they won't, who knows. Either way, it's ultimately not up to me so why should I even care about it? This topic wasn't something that I have even thought of until this thread was posted here at GTP. It wasn't a question or concern that I have Lobbied for or even have done prior research for prior to this thread. With that I'll finish off with a quote I heard:

If you judge people, you have no time to love them.

I think that's so true, and need to be reminded of that from time to time.

~Peace
 
danoff asked
Tell me why gays should not be allowed to marry without using religious reasons.

How about a physical reason? What is your bodies main purpose for being? Not your mind, heart or brain, but what is your bodies purpose in life? Procreation. Pure and simple. Your body is designed to further the human race. Would this be a reason why gays should not be allowed to marry? I don't think it should. I can't state any other reason than this.

Honkakid asked
To the number twos out there: I have no incentive to lie to you. I have no reason to deceive you or mislead you. I hope that you'll believe me when I honestly tell you that being gay is not something that I chose. Why would I choose to become a part of the most hated part of society in modern times? Why would I choose to make my mother cry, to make my own life harder, to subject myself to the constant scruitiny of others, and to deprive myself of such elemental indications of being as marriage and a sense of normalcy?

You made that choice because you felt that you were gay. Your body can't tell you it's gay, because it is programmed on a basic level to procreate. This you can't deny. Your body is not homosexual. You accepted all those drawbacks as part of the choice. Stand naked in front of a mirror and tell us that nature did not intend for you to procreate. You can't. Your body was designed to produce offspring.

If you use the argument that you were born different and nature did not intend for you to procreate for whatever reason, I'll respond with, "Yes, I can accept that." After all nature has made mistakes before. What happens to those mistakes? Extinction. Can you procreate? No, therefore face extinction. No opinion there. If you can't procreate, you face extinction. That is a fact.

Now…Let's get into my opinion. I'm Christian, I believe in God, Jesus, the Resurrection, and the bible. I have struggled with reading and understanding the bible ever since I first opened it. There have always been parts I've read, reread, and pondered for many nights, weeks, months and even years. I'm certain that I can go to any priest, minister, rabbi… for their answer, but I'm looking for my answer. What is my interpretation and what are my thoughts on it.

"One man shall not lay with another man, like a woman"

That's pretty straight forward. In the eyes of God homosexuality is wrong. Hard to argue that point. But then I look at my wife's boss. He's openly gay and in the same relationship since he graduated from college. 18 years. I've known people that have been remarried 3 times and are working on their fifth marriage in that time. These are the very same people that have had 4 kids with three different fathers. I find that a tough pill to swallow in the bibles teachings.

My stance on gay Marriages.
Not wrong. It should be allowed. For two people to join in a committed relationship in the eyes of the state, be it for tax, health, emotional, or other reason, should be respected weather they be man and woman, woman and woman, and yes, even man and man. Under this reasoning, this should also allow a grandmother and grandson to join, as it grants these people the same rights as a married couple.

A further explanation is necessary. Grandmother can't make ends meet on her own. Grandson can't make ends meet on their own. They rent the same house, work towards mutually beneficial goals and towards their future. Why should they not be able to take advantage of the same rights that a man and woman who are legally joined in marriage and in the same position? Because of intercourse? That is the dumbest reason to base laws on I've ever heard of. There is a big difference between having a kid and being a father.

From all the relationships that I've seen, the one unifying factor is commitment to each other[/size=6].

So to play devils advocate, why couldn't cousins get a civil union, take advantage of the rights afforded to other committed couples, and see other people? Given this right, people will abuse it. My old roommate and I could have gotten a civil union and I could have met my wife, as well as he met his girlfriend. We could keep the union, and the tax/health bene's but hook-up with who ever we want. However that would be illegal, as you are defrauding the state of monies dedicated to couples working towards a common goal.

Because the fundamental rule of the union is commitment to each other.

Commitment to each other should rank higher than choice of sexual preference.

I likely could have gone on much longer, and probably will in the next few days.

AO
 
Alta, perhaps you should adopt my philosophy. I find that it can't get people too upset on either end. You should respect people for their sexuality, but you don't have to condone it, only respect it.
 
In all honesty, a persons sexual preference is of no bother to me. I much more prefer to judge a person on their character and how they respect themselves. (Judge isn't quite the word I'm thinking of, but my mind is weary).

My parents are heavy christians and they let their choice dictate every aspect of their life. My in-laws are heavy chirstians, and they celebrate their life.

I could never hope to have a conversation with my mother about her stance on this, as she gets irrational about this subject. My in-laws would rather discuss it and see why I believe what I do instead of branding the issue "Taboo".

RJ, I don't condone it, but I will accept that people can and will be productive members of society given any lifestyle choice.

In thinking this over last night, I further flesheded out my thoughts on "Choice vs. born with it". Quite a few people believe that they were born gay. That they didn't make a choice, it was already made for them. When reviewing my statements above, there is a bit of a hole in my line of thought. How is it that Hondakid knew he was gay at such a young age?

If his body was born with hte basic animal instinct to procreate, how did he have enough info to make a choice? This is the achilles heel to my argument that noone is born gay, they make a choice.

TO be honest, I'm still pondering on this. If Hondakid is still around, I'd like to here his thoughts on when he came to the realization he was gay. at some point in his life, he thought "I am gay" There may have been emotions that he struggled with before that three word thought. There may have been cravings before it. There were likely sings that he had a preference for men and not women.

I'm not looking for ridicule, or to ridicule. I'm not looking for abuse, or to abuse. I simply don't know if/when/why men and women make a choice. In all honesty, I'm trying to figure if my stance of Choice vs. born with it is right.

I suppose I could ask the same question of myself (albeit backwards) "when did I know that I wasn't gay?" Was it when I first figured out the birds and the bees? earlier or later. Again, something that I'll have to think on for a while more.

AO
 
Originally posted by Der Alta
How about a physical reason? What is your bodies main purpose for being? Not your mind, heart or brain, but what is your bodies purpose in life? Procreation. Pure and simple. Your body is designed to further the human race. Would this be a reason why gays should not be allowed to marry? I don't think it should. I can't state any other reason than this.



You made that choice because you felt that you were gay. Your body can't tell you it's gay, because it is programmed on a basic level to procreate. This you can't deny. Your body is not homosexual. You accepted all those drawbacks as part of the choice. Stand naked in front of a mirror and tell us that nature did not intend for you to procreate. You can't. Your body was designed to produce offspring.

If you use the argument that you were born different and nature did not intend for you to procreate for whatever reason, I'll respond with, "Yes, I can accept that." After all nature has made mistakes before. What happens to those mistakes? Extinction. Can you procreate? No, therefore face extinction. No opinion there. If you can't procreate, you face extinction. That is a fact.

Now…Let's get into my opinion. I'm Christian, I believe in God, Jesus, the Resurrection, and the bible. I have struggled with reading and understanding the bible ever since I first opened it. There have always been parts I've read, reread, and pondered for many nights, weeks, months and even years. I'm certain that I can go to any priest, minister, rabbi… for their answer, but I'm looking for my answer. What is my interpretation and what are my thoughts on it.

"One man shall not lay with another man, like a woman"

That's pretty straight forward. In the eyes of God homosexuality is wrong. Hard to argue that point. But then I look at my wife's boss. He's openly gay and in the same relationship since he graduated from college. 18 years. I've known people that have been remarried 3 times and are working on their fifth marriage in that time. These are the very same people that have had 4 kids with three different fathers. I find that a tough pill to swallow in the bibles teachings.

My stance on gay Marriages.
Not wrong. It should be allowed. For two people to join in a committed relationship in the eyes of the state, be it for tax, health, emotional, or other reason, should be respected weather they be man and woman, woman and woman, and yes, even man and man. Under this reasoning, this should also allow a grandmother and grandson to join, as it grants these people the same rights as a married couple.

A further explanation is necessary. Grandmother can't make ends meet on her own. Grandson can't make ends meet on their own. They rent the same house, work towards mutually beneficial goals and towards their future. Why should they not be able to take advantage of the same rights that a man and woman who are legally joined in marriage and in the same position? Because of intercourse? That is the dumbest reason to base laws on I've ever heard of. There is a big difference between having a kid and being a father.

From all the relationships that I've seen, the one unifying factor is commitment to each other[/size=6].

So to play devils advocate, why couldn't cousins get a civil union, take advantage of the rights afforded to other committed couples, and see other people? Given this right, people will abuse it. My old roommate and I could have gotten a civil union and I could have met my wife, as well as he met his girlfriend. We could keep the union, and the tax/health bene's but hook-up with who ever we want. However that would be illegal, as you are defrauding the state of monies dedicated to couples working towards a common goal.

Because the fundamental rule of the union is commitment to each other.

Commitment to each other should rank higher than choice of sexual preference.

I likely could have gone on much longer, and probably will in the next few days.

AO



rock.gif
 
Originally posted by neon_duke
I'm going to try to make this simple, clear, and non-offensive. I doubt I'll make it, but know from this point forward I'm not intending to be offensive.

NOTE: For the sake of simplicity, I'm going to use the word "Christian" to mean the hyper-conservative, politically aggressive Jerry Falwell type. I understand this is a generality and does not reflect the views of many Christians.

The post quoted above is the classic fallacy of social Conservatism. I'm going to use Christians as the example only because they are the most identifiable by far. What they don't understand - deliberately or not - is this:

Atheists and gays are not lobbying to change Christians' lives. They are only lobbying for their own freedoms. Christians, on the other hand, are lobbying against the gays and atheists. Right-wing conservatives are lobbying to stamp out the freedoms of other groups.

That's such a clear and fundamental difference. You MUST be able to understand it. You must.

Gays want the freedom to be gay. They want Christians to have the freedom to be Christian, too. But Christians, who presume that their own freedom is sacrosanct and unquestionable, are looking to prevent everybody else from having those freedoms, if they disapprove of them on moral grounds. And by "moral grounds", I mean "consenting adult" morality. No one rational thinks murder, violence, or theft is moral and no one rational would condone that kind of anarchy.

I mean that Christians of this type want to prevent me from doing something they disapprove of. That's immoral, in my book. I'm not asking Pako to give up his beliefs or Gil to deny the things his pappy taught him throughout his life. I'm not trying to change their lives at all.

I'm just trying to get the Right Wing Conservatives to stop changing my life. I can't put it any clearer. If that's not an understandable difference, I'm forced to say it's because you don't want to understand.

Those who want to live a strict, pious life, are welcome to do so without interference from me or the law! But if my life doesn't fit their mold of "morality", that's just too bad. I'm not making them to join in - but I won't tolerate them trying to interfere, either. I'm already leaving them alone - now it's their turn to keep their blue noses out of my business.


It's official,... I may as well never speak another word in these forums if neon already has because it would be impossible for me to make any better points.

I agree 100% with everything he says,.. IMO, it's quite possible that he's the most rational person on the Planet.

VOTE NEON_DUKE FOR PRESIDENT IN 2004
 
Originally posted by Red Eye Racer
It's official,... I may as well never speak another word in these forums if neon already has because it would be impossible for me to make any better points.

I agree 100% with everything he says,.. IMO, it's quite possible that he's the most rational person on the planet.
:embarrassed:

At the very least, make that a capital 'P' in 'Planet'. Thanks, Brian... but please don't stop posting. You've always got a good take on things as well and you're less decided about some things than I am so it's good to hear your views.

VOTE NEON_DUKE FOR PRESIDENT IN 2004
Don't worry, DGB454, your rights to worship as you choose and express your opinions are fully protected by the Constitution. And as soon as we have control of the House and Senate, we'll start giving America a big lesson in what the Constitution is really all about!
:D

RER, keep your calendar open - I may need a Veep candidate.
 
Originally posted by M5Power
:lol:

I was thinking the same thing.

Big suprise :rolleyes: BTW,... when do you plan on commin outta the closet?



Religous preference for 2000 was
Protestant 56%
Catholic 27%
Jewish 2%
Orthodox 1%
Other 5%
none 8%

I guess I'm still not clear. The chart is labeled Religious Preference,Church Membership, and Attendance.

Is this a chart of what the preference of religous people towards a particular religion or a chart of the entire population including non-religous people?

Sorry if it sounds as if I'm being difficult but I truley don't understand it.

I tend to be a little slow at times when it comes to charts

That's nothin,... I bet the west michigan ratio of Protestant+Catholic = the neighborhood of 95% or greater. You should know that bein a Michigander yourself....... ;)
 
Originally posted by Red Eye Racer
Big suprise :rolleyes: BTW,... when do you plan on commin outta the closet?


Next month! I'm holding a big party for it too! Want to come? I'll even make it Red Eye Racer-friendly and hold up in Michigan! More details as they come, I guess.
 
Originally posted by M5Power


Next month! I'm holding a big party for it too! Want to come? I'll even make it Red Eye Racer-friendly and hold up in Michigan! More details as they come, I guess. [/B]

ya, right,... I couldn't be so lucky .........
 
I guess I'm still not clear. The chart is labeled Religious Preference,Church Membership, and Attendance.

Is this a chart of what the preference of religous people towards a particular religion or a chart of the entire population including non-religous people?

The table claims that it is from the US Census. It says "covers civilian noninstitutional population, 18 years and over."

Which I'm guessing means basically everybody in the U.S. that is considered an adult is included in the estimation. The fact that under "religious preference" they include a column for "none" is further evidence that non-religious people were included in the survey.

The church membership and attendance part is the two columns on the right. The rest of the char is devoted to religious preference, and that's the part I'm drawing your attention to. The result of that chart is that

(Protestant + Catholic + Jews) in y2000 = 85%

So roughly 85% of the general population in America are self-proclaimed christians.

I'm not sure exactly what "Orthodox" is talking about... I'm pretty sure Mormons aren't Christian. Don't they worship someone called Bob or something? I don't remember.
 
The chart is for the entire population. I see nothing that indicates it is limited to religious people only. I do see things that indicate it's for the whole population.
 
Religious beliefs can't dictate public policy. The government can't ban gay marriages because some people interpret the bible to speak against them.

Furthmore, gays should have ALL of the rights of straights. And they are guaranteed the right of assembly/expression by the bill of rights . . . so yeah, they can have parades.

The only conceivable reasons for someone to be anti-gay-marriage AS A MATTER OF PUBLIC POLICY are bigotry or utter ignorance.
 
Its not my business. Im not gay and dont plan on it. They can do whatever they want as long as it does not change the way i live or impedes on me. Theyre humans too, right?
 
Originally posted by TAFJonathan
And they are guaranteed the right of assembly/expression by the bill of rights . . . so yeah, they can have parades.

Sure, they can have parades - I just won't like it. If straight, white men had a parade, they'd get stones thrown at them. But what's the story on their public displays of affection at said parades? I don't like to see straight people kissing, I expect the exact same from gays.
 
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