Gran Turismo 6 AI discussion

[Imari]

Pretty aggressive AI in one of the cars, A.Reyes
Who ended in in first.
Intermediate level it looks like

It's less surprising that you think. The field is written in Japanese at the start and is as follows:

A. Reyes is in the Woodone GT500 car.
Player is in the BRZ GT300 car.
Other cars are Civic Type R '00, G37, Falken RX7 '03, HPA, Motul Civic '87, and an Evo that is probably the Super Rally car.

None of those cars are even moderately capable of standing up to a GT500. The player is doing a decent job keeping up in a car with less aero and 200hp less, and he admits in the video description that he's a total novice at the game.

The AI in the Woodone does a good job of not smashing the other cars off the road, but I'm not sure in this day and age we should be praising AI that merely is able to go around cars that are much, much slower.

 

[CoolColJ]

It ended in first place in 2 laps, starting from the back - that accounts for something
And it took the gap the player left open.

That bodes well for B-Spec actually...

 

[ShiftingGears]

It ended in first place in 2 laps, starting from the back - that accounts for something

...In a completely superior car, on the widest track in the game, with a 1.2km straight...are we really setting the bar that low that this is worthy of praise?

It isn't a start-up company we're looking at. This is a company that has the resources to hire the best of the best racing game AI programmers if they so pleased.

 

[mister dog]

Pretty aggressive AI in one of the cars, A.Reyes
Who ended in in first.
Intermediate level it looks like

The kid drives like **** tough, braking in fast corners which makes the bots catch up on him.

 

[CoolColJ]

So, it's intermediate level, with unknown AI aggression level with all aids and SRF on.

Still looks better than GT5

 

[Imari]

It ended in first place in 2 laps, starting from the back - that accounts for something
And it took the gap the player left open.

That bodes well for B-Spec actually...

If you think that's good, more power to you.

If it was me driving the GT500 against other similarly skilled players in those random cars, I think I'd be doing a terrible job if I wasn't leading after the first lap.

 

[CoolColJ]

The AI might actually do that when set on pro level with max aggression level
In any case, no AI can replicate a human quite yet, without cheating

 

[nickg07]

At the end of the day guys PD have to compromise. The PS3 only has so much power. Would you accept 8 cars on track but better ai? Worse graphics or physics etc? The easiest fix is to just give the lead car a few seconds advantage.

 

[Imari]

The AI might actually do that when set on pro level with max aggression level
In any case, no AI can replicate a human quite yet, without cheating

From a few pages back:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=hQYnHXf9Hlg#t=1303

I've seen similar stuff out of rFactor2 and Game Stock Car. I'd say the AI in the video above are substantially better than your average human player.

 

[aronh17]

The AI might actually do that when set on pro level with max aggression level
In any case, no AI can replicate a human quite yet, without cheating

Especially when you're talking about a 7 year old CPU in a 7 year old console. I know the CELL is powerful, but they're putting the new tire, aerodynamics, and suspension physics on it. They're also using a Morphological Anti-Aliasing filter for GT6, that is also calculated on the CPU. Add in the physics on 16 cars and the new adaptive tessellation, and you don't leave much room for AI calculations. Sure, competitor products have great AI, but look at their physics compared to what GT6 is pushing. This old hardware comes in to play for customization as well. You cannot pack all of that stuff (high poly cars, day/night tracks) in on 512MB of RAM. Kazunori knows this, and he's expanding on the track environments he already has, along with the physics. There will be much, much more capabilities on the PS4. I'm not exactly sure how powerful the 8 core AMD Jaguar CPU is in the APU of the PS4, but I'm sure it's good enough for the current physics and a new AI system, and it has plenty of RAM to do a lot of new things. I hope they utilize this extra power.

Side note: If you look at what GT6 does in terms of overall technology, resolution of 1440x1080 (1,555,200 pixels!) day/night transitions, weather and now accurate night skies, 50 times higher HDR than GT5, adaptive tessellation, brand new and quite realistic physics; it is quite a technological masterpiece on the PS3. I also believe that temperature and wind has played a factor on physics on dynamic courses since GT5.

 

[mister dog]

At the end of the day guys PD have to compromise. The PS3 only has so much power. Would you accept 8 cars on track but better ai? Worse graphics or physics etc? The easiest fix is to just give the lead car a few seconds advantage.

Oh so it has been system limitations then all those years, poor PD..

 

[Dodzzz]

I don't need better AI, I just need them turn faster in corners! (brake more late and gas more early!)
as simple as that really..

 

[aronh17]

Oh so it has been system limitations then all those years, poor PD..

Technically, yes. The PS2 didn't have much of an impressive hardware set. Then factor in how many more people have gained access to the internet since 2004 (GT4 release) which makes it easier to voice your opinion globally. As technology has gotten better, expectations have risen substantially. The jump from a resolution of 480p to 720p and 1080p takes a toll on the PS3, hi-res textures and other pretty details eat RAM and leaves little room for the likes of customization and other requested features. Kazunori and his team chose to use the CELL for physics and next-gen technologies, while doing what they can for the AI. I strongly believe in a bigger push for the Online portion of GT6, as that's the best way to go until PS4.

 

[Cosbuster]

Oh so it has been system limitations then all those years, poor PD..

Yup, sound, AI and customization are all features that have to do with the poor PS3's limitations, not the developer's unfathomable priorities at all. Nevermind that all of those things have been done better on the original freaking xbox.

For all we know, they'll be going full out on visuals (yet again) on the PS4 (and maybe an accurately mapped solar system with 3d planets, meteors and everything) while still complaining there is not enough juice for the racing 101 basics.

At some point, certain excuses just stop making sense and become downright insulting.

 

[sk8er913]

@jlb I agree, Drivatars look a little too aggressive. lol!

GT6 wins.

 

[Imari]

GT6 wins.

I'd forgotten about the cherry picking Vs. videos from the GT5/FM4 days. So I guess we've got that to look forward to.

I'm sorry, but GT6 AI at it's best still appears to be pretty pathetic. They move OK, but I'd say that even in GT5 they didn't move that badly. Not great, but acceptable. The main problem is that they cannot drive at anything approaching racing speed. You can have the best, most aware driver in the world but you can't have a decent race if they won't drive fast.

 

[sk8er913]

I'd forgotten about the cherry picking Vs. videos from the GT5/FM4 days. So I guess we've got that to look forward to.

I'm sorry, but GT6 AI at it's best still appears to be pretty pathetic. They move OK, but I'd say that even in GT5 they didn't move that badly. Not great, but acceptable. The main problem is that they cannot drive at anything approaching racing speed. You can have the best, most aware driver in the world but you can't have a decent race if they won't drive fast.

True, but I don't like dirty racing...

 

[Dimontez]

True, but I don't like dirty racing...

Clean slow parade driving gets boring too, way boring. And if anything, horrible dirty racing actually prepares you for the general multiplayer.

 

[sk8er913]

Clean slow parade driving gets boring too, way boring. And if anything, horrible dirty racing actually prepares you for the general multiplayer.

S-T-F-O- Host very nice clean rooms online, I very rarely get wrecked in his rooms without making some sort of mistake on my own.

 

[Imari]

True, but I don't like dirty racing...

It's entirely possible to have AI that is fast AND relatively clean. At least as clean as the player.

It's a fallacy that people think that clean and fast are mutually exclusive.

 

[ShiftingGears]

And if anything, horrible dirty racing actually prepares you for the general multiplayer.

I think you have it the wrong way around.

I would actually say that offline racing that allows the player to smash their way past AI opponents without consequence conditions players into thinking that it's acceptable online.

 

[Dimontez]

S-T-F-O- Host very nice clean rooms online, I very rarely get wrecked in his rooms without making some sort of mistake on my own.

I think you have it the wrong way around.

I would actually say that offline racing that allows the player to smash their way past AI opponents without consequence conditions players into thinking that it's acceptable online.

Most people online won't care enough about racing etiquette one way or the other. Mind, I'm talking about general multiplayer, as in random people in random rooms. Most league or otherwise organized races are squeaky clean and respectful, but I don't think that the majority of players have time, patience or desire to do "proper" races.

Ninja edit: And anyway, dealing with dirty opponents is a relevant skill. You can get bumped or pushed a little in almost any race, no matter how clean and professional. I mean, look at the real touring car series. You won't find a single race with no contact whatsoever.

 

[Paolosev91]

GT6 wins.

avoiding?
I'm not sure but probably the collision happened while changing views

 

[research]

Alright all of you guys stating that the hardware is holding PD back as far as A.I., I have to interject. A.I. "awareness" absolutely takes up substantial processing power and RAM- no doubt. But in GT5 and even moreso GT6 the A.I. seem to be pretty aware. Aware enough to have some really good racing with side-by-side battles, overtakes, and reactive dodging moves by them if you swoop in. Heck, they even seem to be VERY adept at countersteering and catching slides. That alone must use some pretty serious resources.

Now let's examine the race-driving technique. Which scenario would take more processing power/RAM:

1. Full throttle, approach turn, release throttle/early brakecheck, let off brakes, throttle, brake again, turn wheel, coast, unwind wheel, late throttle out, one more brakecheck just for fun, full-throttle.

2. Full throttle, approach turn, release throttle/strong braking at correct point, ease off brake into turn/turn wheel, ease onto throttle/unwind wheel, full throttle out.

?

 

[bigspleen]

Do they even have ai levels in career mode or just arcade? (Which is the most idiotic thing I have ever seen),

 

[bigspleen]

Rolling starts???? OMG, that is just sad.

 

[sk8er913]

avoiding?
I'm not sure but probably the collision happened while changing views

the guy that crashed was the player... you are onboard the AI.

Edit: this was my 1000th post

 

[avens]

Especially when you're talking about a 7 year old CPU in a 7 year old console.

GTR2's AI is miles faster, without cheating, running in miles lower specs, taking real lines....in a 2006 game made by a small company.

Is it too much to ask to have a difficulty slider that actually works?

 

[Gejabo]

Pretty aggressive AI in one of the cars, A.Reyes
Who ended in in first.
Intermediate level it looks like

Nice vid, to bad the AI guy is driving a GT500 car and the player a GT300.
But apart from that, I can't wait.

 

[MX5Racer69]

Alright all of you guys stating that the hardware is holding PD back as far as A.I., I have to interject. A.I. "awareness" absolutely takes up substantial processing power and RAM- no doubt. But in GT5 and even moreso GT6 the A.I. seem to be pretty aware. Aware enough to have some really good racing with side-by-side battles, overtakes, and reactive dodging moves by them if you swoop in. Heck, they even seem to be VERY adept at countersteering and catching slides. That alone must use some pretty serious resources.

Now let's examine the race-driving technique. Which scenario would take more processing power/RAM:

1. Full throttle, approach turn, release throttle/early brakecheck, let off brakes, throttle, brake again, turn wheel, coast, unwind wheel, late throttle out, one more brakecheck just for fun, full-throttle.

2. Full throttle, approach turn, release throttle/strong braking at correct point, ease off brake into turn/turn wheel, ease onto throttle/unwind wheel, full throttle out.

?

You've simplified the problem significantly. You are correct if we're talking about a single car on a single track. There should be no reason why you couldn't code the AI to enter and exit a corner at maximum speed, especially since the one writing the code knows all the variables and their values.

The challenge comes in when you are talking about multiple AI's running independent algorithms. Now, each node has to make a decision based on a set of variables at a speed consistent with human mental ability (or an approximation). Meanwhile, the other cores on the processor are running full out trying to keep 60fps of 3d graphics coming at you.

There are ways to handle this. You could prioritize the nodes such that the node in front of you and the node behind you had priority while those trailing and far ahead simply ran a predictable path. But I think this points out the challenge. To make the AI great, you'd have to steal from Peter to pay Paul. Everything is a tradeoff.

At some point, I'd like to see a console with at least 4 cpus. Will that ever happen? I don't know. But as prices drop on chips over time and as the computers get faster, a day will come when you can have dedicated resources for the AI. And when that happens, look out. You'll be racing against Big Blue. And he's going to be hard to beat.