Gran Turismo 7 Physics

[br1x]

The tuning going from dropping fractions of PP to dropping 30+ points with one click (right or left), may be the reason physics are broken. I think I was right when the game came out. There's some grip calculator that under some speed, rotation angle and throttle position will spin you out with no warning. There's no other explanation for the sudden loss of rears, and why instead of understeering the faster you go, you suddenly snap.

The reason for this is because the game calculates the PP in part with the numbers you see on the left.

So if you have for example a rotational value of 1.00 and increase front downforce by 1 click, it improves your rotation but not enough to increase that value. Then when you increase the downforce enough to get 1.01, you get that big jump in PP.

It is honestly a really stupid system, Kaz praised it like some superpowered force that can exactly determine how a car actually performs; it doesn't, it just reads numbers and is very flawed.

 

[chengman]

The more I play the game, the more I want the old physics back. This is just crap. What makes it worse than I first thought that it feigns being more realistic while not even being in the same room as realism.

Cars being unpredictable and uncontrollable even in dry conditions is not realism.

Some cars almost drive normally, but even those are twitchy and hard to reign in, but from time to time you come across some car that is supposed to handle great but is a total disaster in this game. For example the pass mission with the R8 LMS, this is supposed to be a touring car, but it slides around like a 50s formula car, it's a joke handling wise, it can't accelerate out of corners without uncontrollable oversteer, even with TC at 2.

With these physics the game is not fun, but infuriating most of the time.

The fact that an ND Miata can do donuts in second gear with the slightest touch of the throttle is laughable.

 

[Td04]

The fact that an ND Miata can do donuts in second gear with the slightest touch of the throttle is laughable.

You get bad oversteer in Low power cars just if you rape them for purpose, to see that physics issue.
I find laughable get a lot understeer,in second gear without TCS, in a high power rwd car on GTS..

 

[lbpomg95]

Damn this game is kicking my ass on controller. I've been trying to set up the De Tomaso Mangusta to be just driveable. Not fast. I've tried it at stock power, full power, lightly tuned, full weight reduction, with 150kg ballast over the front, comfort tyres, sport tyres and race tyres with all kinds of changes to suspension and LSD. I cannot get this car to behave.

When decelerating, it understeers massively even with toe out on the front and low LSD braking, and a rear brake bias. Turn-in is more or less non-existent. Then, when you touch the throttle it steps out immediately and violently, and when countersteering, you either can't correct enough, so you just spin, or it slingshots you the other way. There's literally no middle ground, no margin for error at all.

I get that a wheel would give more precise control, but this is on the level of punishing me just for having a DS4.

 

[Batschisane52]

Damn this game is kicking my ass on controller. I've been trying to set up the De Tomaso Mangusta to be just driveable. Not fast. I've tried it at stock power, full power, lightly tuned, full weight reduction, with 150kg ballast over the front, comfort tyres, sport tyres and race tyres with all kinds of changes to suspension and LSD. I cannot get this car to behave.

When decelerating, it understeers massively even with toe out on the front and low LSD braking, and a rear brake bias. Turn-in is more or less non-existent. Then, when you touch the throttle it steps out immediately and violently, and when countersteering, you either can't correct enough, so you just spin, or it slingshots you the other way. There's literally no middle ground, no margin for error at all.

I get that a wheel would give more precise control, but this is on the level of punishing me just for having a DS4.

Maybe you can find some help with the Mangusta here...

De Tomaso Mangusta tuning

I just got the De Tomaso Magusta and I would appriciate some tunining suggenstions... At first I just got some sport-soft tires, just to see how it is runnig with the original set up...it was very tail happy and oversteery, but also easy to catch after I lost control... Then I got a racing...

www.gtplanet.net

I remember there being a second thread or discussion about it somewhere here in the forum, but I can't find it right now...

This car is really hard to drive at first and takes its time, but much of fun once you mastered it...

 

[Adrenalined]

The physics need updated. I originally thought I would just need time to adjust from gt sport. I have adjusted but there is still many cars that are nearly "un-race-able" do to oversteer and weight transfer. The most affected cars are MR and RR. The problem is most apparent in mid-high speed corner sequences. At times a car will become unstable and experience strong oversteer from any change of input (brake, turn, lift). This is also coupled with the fact that it is tougher to recover from. In my opinion there is 3 areas with gt7's physics that need fixed. Just incase anyone from PD is reading our forums, I'll elaborate:

1) weight transfer seems much to harsh/slow. This is felt on all cars but most negatively affects MR as their gravity is most fluid between axels. This limits the ability to trail brake as weight transfer from turning hits too hard, and partially releasing the brake doesn't shift weight off the nose fast enough causing oversteer.

2) during a slide induced by oversteer, tires don't grab quickly enough, and when they do, they grab too harsh. After correcting for oversteer, and the and the car straightens out, the tires seem to take too long to regain traction. I find myself needing to weight extra long before applying throttle despite oversteer appearing to be corrected.

3) I find the edge between traction and oversteer to be tough to feel through FFB. I do believe the FFB is too realistic in this case. IRL, oversteer isn't felt through the steering wheel but through your seat and by gforce. Without those feedbacks in sim racing, more needs to be represented through the wheel.

 

[unfairlane]

Damn this game is kicking my ass on controller. I've been trying to set up the De Tomaso Mangusta to be just driveable. Not fast. I've tried it at stock power, full power, lightly tuned, full weight reduction, with 150kg ballast over the front, comfort tyres, sport tyres and race tyres with all kinds of changes to suspension and LSD. I cannot get this car to behave.

When decelerating, it understeers massively even with toe out on the front and low LSD braking, and a rear brake bias. Turn-in is more or less non-existent. Then, when you touch the throttle it steps out immediately and violently, and when countersteering, you either can't correct enough, so you just spin, or it slingshots you the other way. There's literally no middle ground, no margin for error at all.

I get that a wheel would give more precise control, but this is on the level of punishing me just for having a DS4.

Did a quick setup that works ok both with sports- & racetyres, racediff & aero included. Doing 4-wheel drift with controller

--- Front - Rear
- Height: 136 - 130
-- ARB: 6 - 9
- Bound: 38 - 40
Rebound: 48 - 50
Springs: 220 - 285
Camber: 1.2 - 0.8
---Toe: 0.0 - 0.2

Diff: 8 - 55- 45
- Aero: 63 - 200


Just won the European Championship in this one, two races in rain!

 

[Firestone]

you were only able to catch drift in GT7 only after the patch, that shows that GT7 physics was flawed. Even after the latest patch the way you drifted that last corner at tsukuba looked weird, where the hot version video that I posted many pages ago he was able to drift the full last corner at tsukuba quite happily and predictably. PD still need to patch the RWD car physics further.



A refresher.


Once again I have to tell you this but I never had problem initiating the slide in both GT7 and AC, seems like you're having problem with weight transfer in Assetto Corsa.

who said otherwise? now you're comparing people losing grip while racing rather than people purposefully drift their car.

EDIT: was typing on my phone and it was horrible, rewrote on my laptop.

GT was flawed before. I never defended the issues. I actually agreed with you I believe. The game was updated and much improved in this aspect. Actually in comparison to the Hot Version video, I did exactly what he did in the video in 3rd gear to start the drift with ease. I was all over the place bc frankly I've only been doing it for an hour. In all honestly, GT is more realistic in this aspect. It's going to be a hard pill to swallow, but AC is not realistic in this regard. Understeer is a big flaw in it's system. It may have a good base physics system, but whatever parameters they set up with the stock cars is off the mark. Go get the FRS yourself and try it. I set the tires to Eco at 35psi. The car is just not responsive to turn in and doesn't rotate.

I posted the other videos of examples of the FRS being able to break traction and slide under its own power. You can't do this in AC. I'm not the only one complaining about this in the thread.

 

[ScottPuss20]

I did some practice for my next ACC league race at Catalunya last night in the Ferrari 488 GT3. Whilst I was doing so, I wanted to know how the experience compared to the Lamborghini Huracan GT3 in GT7 with traction control turned off. I theorized that the traction control in ACC was providing a large amount of assistance, potentially masking some of the issues with the car. This was not the case. The Ferrari was still perfectly driveable with traction control turned off and the dynamics were pretty much the same. I had to control the throttle a bit more but apart from that it was fine. It was well balanced and progressive, unlike the Huracan in GT7. The Huracan exhibited skittish behaviour, making the car hard to predict and far too reactive to the slightest steering adjustment. It lacked connection with the road because it had a light front end and a particularly loose rear, something that is very hard to keep under control. It goes from having all the grip to none at all far too quickly. A GT3 car, even with traction control turned off, should not be on a knife-edge like this.

 

[SPOOLMAN]

Video is back up.

 

[unfairlane]

Tyrephysics still stinks in this game but it`s not the same for all cars. Some older cars are close to undriveable, even for a experienced tuner like me. Just gave up racing a -69 Camaro, the tyre-slip is still way to overdramatic.

Tuning is wery simplified and primitive. Can`t upgrade tirewidth*, way to weak shocks, can`t finetune swaybars a.s.on

* only cosmetic

 

[VXR]

I consider it a matter of satisfaction that I managed to get the Testarossa around the 'Ring without losing control on the Dual Sense. Usually it would get a bit squirelly, but I think I've gotten used to the subtle tells of the pad before overloading the tyres. I haven't got the adaptive triggers on, either.

Really seems a watershed moment.

 

[Lion-Face]

Damn this game is kicking my ass on controller. I've been trying to set up the De Tomaso Mangusta to be just driveable. Not fast. I've tried it at stock power, full power, lightly tuned, full weight reduction, with 150kg ballast over the front, comfort tyres, sport tyres and race tyres with all kinds of changes to suspension and LSD. I cannot get this car to behave.

When decelerating, it understeers massively even with toe out on the front and low LSD braking, and a rear brake bias. Turn-in is more or less non-existent. Then, when you touch the throttle it steps out immediately and violently, and when countersteering, you either can't correct enough, so you just spin, or it slingshots you the other way. There's literally no middle ground, no margin for error at all.

I get that a wheel would give more precise control, but this is on the level of punishing me just for having a DS4

The car is very difficult to drive. Personally I don't go near the settings of a car until I understand it somewhat, and that can be 300km+ trying to reach the limit on the default tune to find it's strengths and weaknesses.

The car is very sensitive to the amount of steering lock you have when you are on throttle. I have found I really need to feed both the throttle on gently while releasing the steering lock at the same time. I find this very hard to do on a controller due to it's limited travel. You can pick up a pair of KontrolFreek (or similar) thumbsticks which help in giving finer control over your steering lock.

It can be done though! I do enjoy the Mangusta as it is and every time I bring it out I'm finding more to like about it. After seeing your post today I thought I would give it another crack, and took it around High Speed Ring Clubman Cup + for a race. Took me a few tries to get used to it again, but managed a great race with no aids and default car setup (with Sports Hards as that was a requirement for entry) against the AI

I consider it a matter of satisfaction that I managed to get the Testarossa around the 'Ring without losing control on the Dual Sense. Usually it would get a bit squirelly, but I think I've gotten used to the subtle tells of the pad before overloading the tyres. I haven't got the adaptive triggers on, either.

Really seems a watershed moment.

Well done! The Testarossa is a lot of fun, not as difficult as some cars but not an easy beast to tame or drive quickly. I do find the Dual Sense is very communicative on what the car is doing, with the adaptive triggers also (I get its a personal thing on/off) and understanding/feeling the car through the different vibrations with the controller does help.

 

[unfairlane]

Lion-Face; try the setup I posted, it tames the Mangusta

 

[extreme car]

GT was flawed before. I never defended the issues. I actually agreed with you I believe.

I'm pretty sure you're one of the people that had no problems with gt7 early physics until I tell you to record a video of you holding a power slide through a corner, then you changed your mind and we were on the same page.

The game was updated and much improved in this aspect. Actually in comparison to the Hot Version video, I did exactly what he did in the video in 3rd gear to start the drift with ease. I was all over the place bc frankly I've only been doing it for an hour. In all honestly, GT is more realistic in this aspect. It's going to be a hard pill to swallow, but AC is not realistic in this regard. Understeer is a big flaw in it's system. It may have a good base physics system, but whatever parameters they set up with the stock cars is off the mark. Go get the FRS yourself and try it. I set the tires to Eco at 35psi. The car is just not responsive to turn in and doesn't rotate.

I can't believe I have to repeat this the third time but here we go. I don't have problem with initiating drifts in GT7 it's once you start applying throttle is where the problem is at. I can't see your throttle, brake, steering inputs in your video because you didn't include it in your replay, but it seemed to me you're only half throttling and had to keep releasing the throttle to make sure you don't spin out, your car was also no where near the redline but you're still able to keep the slide on where as in the hot version video he had to mash the throttle to the redline to keep the car slide going.

I posted the other videos of examples of the FRS being able to break traction and slide under its own power. You can't do this in AC. I'm not the only one complaining about this in the thread.

not going to discuss AC physics in depth with you because this is GT7 physics thread. All I can say is @Scaff's basic dynamics for FR,FF,AWD,MR,RR cars from a few pages ago actually feels closer to AC to me than GT7. one of the most notable one for me is when I read the RR porsche where he explained how the car is supposed to understeer on gradual throttle and give you that planted feeling on exit rather than snap oversteer in GT7. I actually never liked porsche before AC, I'm more of a ferrari guy but after I drove the 911R in Assetto Corsa I completely fell in love with porsches, the steering and the mechanical grip on that car is fantastic.

 

[JDMKING13]

I consider it a matter of satisfaction that I managed to get the Testarossa around the 'Ring without losing control on the Dual Sense. Usually it would get a bit squirelly, but I think I've gotten used to the subtle tells of the pad before overloading the tyres. I haven't got the adaptive triggers on, either.

Really seems a watershed moment.

The Testarossa is a pleasure to drive! Nice power, soft suspension definitely gives me that 80s vibe and I always love giving it a spin.. Have you tried the GTO though 😈? The way the turbo hits you when it’s full blast is insane. The car will kill you if you hit boost your fast mid corner to corner exit lol. I drive both with CM tires and no electronic aids.

 

[Lalalalala]

Video on LSD settings to help with handling.

 

[Firestone]

I'm pretty sure you're one of the people that had no problems with gt7 early physics until I tell you to record a video of you holding a power slide through a corner, then you changed your mind and we were on the same page.

I've never tried to drift before, so I was unaware of the issue. In the end I agreed with you. So that's that.

I can't believe I have to repeat this the third time but here we go. I don't have problem with initiating drifts in GT7 it's once you start applying throttle is where the problem is at. I can't see your throttle, brake, steering inputs in your video because you didn't include it in your replay, but it seemed to me you're only half throttling and had to keep releasing the throttle to make sure you don't spin out, your car was also no where near the redline but you're still able to keep the slide on where as in the hot version video he had to mash the throttle to the redline to keep the car slide going.

In the Hot video he was jabbing the throttle on and off and maintaining his RPM around 6.5 to 7k. In my video I was holding around 6k and above. I did drop below a few times and every time I dropped below, the rears would want to lose the kinetic energy and that is where my little snaps occurred. GT seems pretty realistic in this aspect to me. I actually recreated what he did, same steering flick, same steering inputs and throttle jabs. The hand animations of the driver don't cross, but at the exit I had similar steering rotation to the Hot video. I don't know, GT is representing this well.

not going to discuss AC physics in depth with you because this is GT7 physics thread. All I can say is @Scaff's basic dynamics for FR,FF,AWD,MR,RR cars from a few pages ago actually feels closer to AC to me than GT7. one of the most notable one for me is when I read the RR porsche where he explained how the car is supposed to understeer on gradual throttle and give you that planted feeling on exit rather than snap oversteer in GT7. I actually never liked porsche before AC, I'm more of a ferrari guy but after I drove the 911R in Assetto Corsa I completely fell in love with porsches, the steering and the mechanical grip on that car is fantastic.

I'm sure AC does things well, but the understeer in the cars are a big no no. I've done a bunch of hot laps in the 2015 Mustang GT in the game and it is pretty planted when irl it really happy on throttle. It suffers the same fate as the FRS and as Td04 said with the 4C.
You can see here Randy short shifting and being very careful on throttle and preferring 3rd gear when cornering. In AC you can abuse the car since it understeer so much.

 

[nfsp2kTW]

The grip performance of AC's tires is too strong, and it is not easy to maintain the state of Power Slide until the exit of the corner.
In the AC world, horsepower is never enough to destroy the grip of the rear wheels,
As far as the fun of drifting is concerned, the GT7 is obviously a lot more fun than the AC,
No need to adjust, no need to significantly increase horsepower, no need to install additional MOD plug-ins,
Simply put on CH tires, and you can experience the bad taste of slipping in time.

 

[Scaff]

The grip performance of AC's tires is too strong, and it is not easy to maintain the state of Power Slide until the exit of the corner.
In the AC world, horsepower is never enough to destroy the grip of the rear wheels,

Ah, this again.

 

[xMAXIx79]

Ah, this again.

It's a good thing that watching a digital copy doesn't affect its quality like it did with the VHS cassette back then, otherwise the video would already be worn out

 

[Scaff]

It's a good thing that watching a digital copy doesn't affect its quality like it did with the VHS cassette back then, otherwise the video would already be worn out

Not to mention the fact that YouTube is awash with videos of stock cars being drifted in AC, even lower-powered ones, that do need a good degree of weight transfer to maintain momentum (which apparently AC is crap at, go figure).

 

[xMAXIx79]

Not to mention the fact that YouTube is awash with videos of stock cars being drifted in AC, even lower-powered ones, that do need a good degree of weight transfer to maintain momentum (which apparently AC is crap at, go figure).

I think you misunderstood me...(or it's an inaccurate translation for me)... You are absolutely right and since I've been following the topic here from the beginning.. well...
Some just seem to read the last page and then keep coming back with the same argument about how much better other games are.

Just like the statement GT 1-2-3-4-5 were much harder to drive, or the license tests were much harder because they took much longer to complete. The only thing they forget is that these players may not have driven as well/precisely as they can today. But that is understandable insofar as the mind is simply much better at thinking linearly.

 

[Scaff]

I think you misunderstood me...(or it's an inaccurate translation for me)... You are absolutely right and since I've been following the topic here from the beginning.. well...
Some just seem to read the last page and then keep coming back with the same argument about how much better other games are.

Just like the statement GT 1-2-3-4-5 were much harder to drive, or the license tests were much harder because they took much longer to complete. The only thing they forget is that these players may not have driven as well/precisely as they can today. But that is understandable insofar as the mind is simply much better at thinking linearly.

No, not misunderstood at all, don't worry.

 

[extreme car]

I've never tried to drift before, so I was unaware of the issue. In the end I agreed with you. So that's that.

you don't need to try drift to get the issue, it happens when you overdrive most RWD cars in GT7. drift is just a way for me to show the on/off rear tyre level grip on RWD cars.

In the Hot video he was jabbing the throttle on and off and maintaining his RPM around 6.5 to 7k. In my video I was holding around 6k and above. I did drop below a few times and every time I dropped below, the rears would want to lose the kinetic energy and that is where my little snaps occurred. GT seems pretty realistic in this aspect to me. I actually recreated what he did, same steering flick, same steering inputs and throttle jabs. The hand animations of the driver don't cross, but at the exit I had similar steering rotation to the Hot video. I don't know, GT is representing this well.

how is dropping the RPM while still maintaining drifts more realistic? I can and did recreate the hot version video but that doesn't mean GT7 physics is realistic, I had to do a lot more corrective steering and throttle just to copy his drifts.

btw is this a different replay from the first one? this drifts look smoother than the previous replay. if it's congrats you're getting better at it.

I'm sure AC does things well, but the understeer in the cars are a big no no. I've done a bunch of hot laps in the 2015 Mustang GT in the game and it is pretty planted when irl it really happy on throttle. It suffers the same fate as the FRS and as Td04 said with the 4C.
You can see here Randy short shifting and being very careful on throttle and preferring 3rd gear when cornering. In AC you can abuse the car since it understeer so much.

probably is, never said AC has a perfect physics also never driven the mustang gt and 4c in AC, but the cars that I do have tried, have pretty much the same @Scaff's basic dynamic for different drives.

 

[driftnick13]

Went back to check and it appears the tires do still smoke off after you regain grip. Looks to be just animation and nothing related to the physics.

In this case what I mentioned isn't happening but it is something that happens in GT.

 

[SPOOLMAN]

I made a video showcasing the absolute best GT7 can be.

Zero assists. Sports tyres. ABS default. High powered car. Zero problem with grip. Some minor understeer in certain corners but that's just me overcooking a corner or two.

No other car sim comes close to this experience.

 

[LSFDRX]

I made a video showcasing the absolute best GT7 can be.

Zero assists. Sports tyres. ABS default. High powered car. Zero problem with grip. Some minor understeer in certain corners but that's just me overcooking a corner or two.

No other car sim comes close to this experience.

I don't think this shows or proves anything. Nobody in here is really arguing the merits of GT7, most of us are having a good time, and have found the cars that we prefer. That does not mean that the model isn't still VERY flawed, and that oversteer correction/beyond limit handling is a major issue. Some vehicles are still broken and act NOTHING like their true life counterpart. It is a problem that tuning and it's sometimes ridiculous and unrealistic "fixes" are needed to make a car drivable without white knuckles. That most Porsches are disastrous, the Ford GT is a disaster, the Audi R8 LMS is a disaster, and many other cars do no justice to what they truly are IRL.

My E92 M3 in game is as solid as they come, bury it in corners, mash the throttle and pull out confidently (a 444hp RWD heavy car)... the Subaru STI on the other hand, while still a confident car, can somehow still POWER OVERSTEER with 50:50 power distribution coming out of a third gear corner with 360hp on SH tires. AND THEN when straight, power on, the fronts should be pulling you straight, but it will sometimes STILL snap over if it isn't 100% planted. This is not how AWD cars work. Period. This simply doesn't happen IRL, and is indicative of the myriad issues PD hopefully sorts out to make this game truly great. There are cars that are fantastic in real life that are undrivable here... and that's a HUGE problem that isn't glossed over by someone having a good time with one car in one race.

So, unless you have real world experience in a Huayra at the ring, this doesn't really say anything. And since you're on a controller (looks like it by the late/slow steering in replay), your issues are lessened by your ability to quickly do anything you want with the front wheels. For those of us on wheel, these sensitive problems with beyond limit handling are MUCH harder to deal with and overcome.

 

[lbpomg95]

I don't think this shows or proves anything. Nobody in here is really arguing the merits of GT7, most of us are having a good time, and have found the cars that we prefer. That does not mean that the model isn't still VERY flawed, and that oversteer correction/beyond limit handling is a major issue. Some vehicles are still broken and act NOTHING like their true life counterpart. It is a problem that tuning and it's sometimes ridiculous and unrealistic "fixes" are needed to make a car drivable without white knuckles. That most Porsches are disastrous, the Ford GT is a disaster, the Audi R8 LMS is a disaster, and many other cars do no justice to what they truly are IRL.

My E92 M3 in game is as solid as they come, bury it in corners, mash the throttle and pull out confidently (a 444hp RWD heavy car)... the Subaru STI on the other hand, while still a confident car, can somehow still POWER OVERSTEER with 50:50 power distribution coming out of a third gear corner with 360hp on SH tires. AND THEN when straight, power on, the fronts should be pulling you straight, but it will sometimes STILL snap over if it isn't 100% planted. This is not how AWD cars work. Period. This simply doesn't happen IRL, and is indicative of the myriad issues PD hopefully sorts out to make this game truly great. There are cars that are fantastic in real life that are undrivable here... and that's a HUGE problem that isn't glossed over by someone having a good time with one car in one race.

So, unless you have real world experience in a Huayra at the ring, this doesn't really say anything. And since you're on a controller (looks like it by the late/slow steering in replay), your issues are lessened by your ability to quickly do anything you want with the front wheels. For those of us on wheel, these sensitive problems with beyond limit handling are MUCH harder to deal with and overcome.

Frankly being on controller makes it more difficult. Making fast changes to steering direction doesn't count for much when the control over how much steering angle is applied is so limited. If you try something like a '69 Camaro you either can't countersteer enough to save a slide, or you snap in the other direction and hit a wall.

 

[Hobson]

Frankly being on controller makes it more difficult. Making fast changes to steering direction doesn't count for much when the control over how much steering angle is applied is so limited. If you try something like a '69 Camaro you either can't countersteer enough to save a slide, or you snap in the other direction and hit a wall.

I'd have to agree with it being harder on controller right now than the wheel. Doing anything smooth and fast on a controller is ridiculous with how much steering filtering is being applied behind the scenes.

Doing the Suzuka East daily race is frustrating to put it lightly. I'm watching the wheel users utilize all of the available steering while I'm waiting light-years for my car to hit full lock regardless of sensitivity.
Only half baked solution I found is to chuck it into corners on 0 sensitivity, and pray. Best time I got is a 1:06.6 and it's killing me because I know what to do/how to do it but I'm falling flat due to precision steering