Gran Turismo 7 Physics

[RacingFan1]

He not wrong man I turned off all the electronic aids on my civic SI once.. I was coming down a sweeper hit the brakes mid turn and spun the car.. I almost had a heart attack man.. it was scary as heck to just feel the rear go light and just spin

You turned off ABS aswell? A FWD car isn't supposed to oversteer with ABS system.

 

[Td04]

You turned off ABS aswell? A FWD car isn't supposed to oversteer with ABS system.

I oversteered my Abarth Grande Punto,tuned to 263 hp,during brake irl...It Is normal It happens. You are loading weight and grip on front tires. Of course if you brake so strong that the abs enter you will get understeer, but this happens on gt7 too

 

[JDMKING13]

You turned off ABS aswell? A FWD car isn't supposed to oversteer with ABS system.

No just traction control and stability control… My friend FWD cars definitely oversteer I’m surprised you haven’t seen it in videos on YouTube.

 

[RacingFan1]

I oversteered my Abarth Grande Punto,tuned to 263 hp,during brake irl...It Is normal It happens. You are loading weight and grip on front tires. Of course if you brake so strong that the abs enter you will get understeer, but this happens on gt7 too

No just traction control and stability control… My friend FWD cars definitely oversteer I’m surprised you haven’t seen it in videos on YouTube.

Probably depends on the car then because from my exp, all understeered on braking. With ABS on of couse. And normal tires, not semislicks or anything like that.

 

[JDMKING13]

Probably depends on the car then because from my exp, all understeered on braking. With ABS on of couse. And normal tires, not semislicks or anything like that.

I thought the same man.. this was back in like 2010 and I always pushed the car pretty hard on twisty back roads and it felt tight and stable…turned aids off one night except abs, hit the brakes just as normally do when I’m going a little too fast in a corner and the rear just slid out! I thought the car was broken man… did the research and found out it’s common on fwd to lose the rear when braking mid corner or not in a straight light while driving fast.

 

[FA_Hayes]

My wife was kind enough to buy me this sexy bastard for my birthday.

I wanted an open top to keep it off screen because I run it high but on topic it allows alot more detail feeling than my 911 suede wheel.

It's lighter and with no gloves it's very noticeable how much better the physics are than GTS. So much so I actually have to change all my settings and I'm quite happy so far. Also it's pretty amazing just how much a simple wheel change can alter our experience.

 

[Tenacious D]

In GT7 you have to drive like you are walking on egg shells

Well, it depends on the car and the tires. Admittedly I've been race tuning lately and haven't touched a comfort-fitted car in two weeks or more. When it comes to street cars I always use sports softs because only a ninny would dream of trying to be competitive in a race, or do time trials, with anything less than the best rubber. Some think it's cheating, oh well.

I also have enough sense not to force feed myself a bad car and make myself try to learn it stock. If I insist on keeping with one because I'm fond of the feisty badger, I'll see if it can be tuned and tamed with performance parts. I'll look for a tune in here that works. But if we just can't get along, I garage it until a performance update shows up. There are plenty of great cars in GT7 which don't require millions to buy.

I just happened to think that it would help if the issue some of you have is with drifting. If so, I'd really appreciate it if you guys wouldn't use terms like race and drive, because drifting isn't any of that, it's its own critter.

I must say that with my G29 brake pedal beginning to stick, which fills me with all kinds of emotions in the middle of a time trial or race, GAH!, I'm beginning to seriously consider ponying up the caps for one of those Fanatec DD wheels... pricey, but who knows how long I have to live it up on this stupid planet?

 

[dabz343]

For all those that are lurking...for those that want to get better. GL

Phase 2 of the corner is where I think I gain the most from others...balancing the car is being rewarded during entry, but turn in is still not ideal...and it all get's a bit numb from there...there are 6 phases of a corner PD -- I'd like to experience them all. Having said that, what you have designed is still good enough for me...but do continually strive



Now Empty claims some knowledge...I think he's got something.

 

[ScottPuss20]

In GT7 you have to drive like you are walking on egg shells

This is true in some circumstances but not all.

 

[driftnick13]

I'd like to note on your vid at 1:11, it's doing the same exact condition as my vid. Different camera angles give different perspectives.

It looks like your front wheels are pointing straight even though the rear wheels are still spinning while I'm winding off the angle as the car straightens and rear wheels speed drops, I do the same thing on the exit of every corner.

Also not saying AC is perfect or the grip level is correct but at least the physics and FFB match real life, the cars react like they should.

 

[HugoTwoWheels]

It's clear that the ones who don't acknowledge the problems are the ones who are very experienced in Gran Turismo

No, I haven't played car games much at all, but I come from real life motorcycle driving year round for the last 15 years, where the power to weight ratio could equal a 1000-1250 HP car, on road tyres - mostly with no TC/ABS. If anything, driving some cars in simracing games where I can twist and stomp feels weird. I had more trouble adapting to the aggressive driving style needed in GTS with race cars than I have with any of the "broken ones" in GT7.
I've never cared much for real life car driving by the way. Standard cars feel like a slow and numb bus in comparison to a motorcycle (or a race car). They got a roof however, which can be great.

A DD 8 Nm or more with good settings helps too, as I've mentioned. A lot.

How a 750 hp Corvette feels in real life I have no idea, but my guess is that the GT7 representation is realistic, and I find it very fun and rewarding. If it was "less broken", I'd be less entertained, as I am with assists enabled.
Weaker "snap happy" cars are equally fun. The only road cars I enjoyed in GTS were Porsche 930 and 993. In GT7 even small FWD hatchbacks can be fun when driven aggressively.

 

[The DOHCter]

It just feels off. I play on a pad (i know blah blah blah) but the wheels feel like they are on a switch and the moment you push the car just a tiny bit over the limit it wants to kill you. Frustrating because I like the physics more than sport but this one issue with the physics is keeping me from fully enjoying the experience. I don't want the physics dumbed down but I don't want it to be hard just for the sake of being hard as I know its not this hard irl.

I find it so much easier on the ps4 pad than on the g29 steering wheel.
With the steering wheel its very hard to get to the limit before you spin out whereas on the pad its so much easier.
On GTS i would only use the steering wheel as i was so much faster and the handling of cars was easier.
On GT7 i feel it's been reversed 😡

 

[Scaff]

So, that's exactly what makes no sense to me. The rear being very light means it won't go away and displace the car from the rear end, and instead it should understeer. It's basic physics, not that I'm a physicist but the basics are understandable.
On the other hand for example an old Porsche 911 with a lot of weight at the back its far more prone to oversteer.

The amount of load you have over a corner is directly related to the amount of grip you have, up to a point. Too little and it can let go, but too much and it can also let go. As such if you unload the rears the back end can get light, so the effect is real enough, however, I would agree that GT7 overexaggerated the degree to which this happens.

BTW - this is actually why 911 are actually stupidly stable under braking and not prone to corner entry oversteer, quite the opposite they are prone to corner entry understeer, only switching to oversteer if you lift, and at that point they will oversteer very, very rapidly.

You turned off ABS aswell? A FWD car isn't supposed to oversteer with ABS system.

It's not technically ABS that does that, early ABS systems didn't help with this at all. EBD systems, Electronic Brake-force Distribution systems are the ones that do that, as they balance the braking force applied to each corner dependent on the level of grip it has.

 

[Td04]

It looks like your front wheels are pointing straight even though the rear wheels are still spinning while I'm winding off the angle as the car straightens and rear wheels speed drops, I do the same thing on the exit of every corner.

Also not saying AC is perfect or the grip level is correct but at least the physics and FFB match real life, the cars react like they should.

Not at all. Cars on Ac are too much understeery, even tail happy cars. 4c on Ac just understeer,but irl without aids Is quite tail happy. Same for 458,that yes oversteer on Ac,but is really too much docile.
The whole game let you to respect much less the car balance and you can push hard on throttle more than what It should.

Agree than on the other side gt7 is exaggerrating oversteer mechnics,but in my opinion is doing a better job with weight transfer and car balancing.
And i agree too that Ac physics match more the reality if we talk about drift.

 

[Scaff]

Not at all. Cars on Ac are too much understeery, even tail happy cars. 4c on Ac just understeer,but irl without aids Is quite tail happy. Same for 458,that yes oversteer on Ac,but is really too much docile.
The whole game let you to respect much less the car balance and you can push hard on throttle more than what It should.

Road cars are biased towards understeer, in most cases regardless of aids being on or off, that's how OEMs set-them up. some will then transition to oversteer, but the understeer will almost always be the initial balance (because dead customers don't repurchase).

As for the 4C, it's 100%, not 'just' understeer...



Oh and road tests on the 4C highlighted the initial understeer bias.

Alfa Romeo 4C Coupe and Spider review - it may look like a miniature supercar, but does it drive like one? - Ride and handling | Evo

With a carbon fibre chassis, unassisted steering and those looks, how can the 4C fail to impress?

www.evo.co.uk

Agree than on the other side gt7 is exaggerrating oversteer mechnics,but in my opinion is doing a better job with weight transfer and car balancing.
And i agree too that Ac physics match more the reality if we talk about drift.

AC's physics match reality better across the board, they aren't perfect (but it is now an old title), but it's still overall doing a better job than GT7.

 

[Td04]

Road cars are biased towards understeer, in most cases regardless of aids being on or off, that's how OEMs set-them up. some will then transition to oversteer, but the understeer will almost always be the initial balance (because dead customers don't repurchase).

As for the 4C, it's 100%, not 'just' understeer...



Oh and road tests on the 4C highlighted the initial understeer bias.

Alfa Romeo 4C Coupe and Spider review - it may look like a miniature supercar, but does it drive like one? - Ride and handling | Evo

With a carbon fibre chassis, unassisted steering and those looks, how can the 4C fail to impress?

www.evo.co.uk

AC's physics match reality better across the board, they aren't perfect (but it is now an old title), but it's still overall doing a better job than GT7.

Are there some difference between PS4 and PC version,in physics regards?
It looks so much better in this video you posted.

Edit: I am trying,agaim,right now 4c on Ac PS4 version..i really can't get any oversteer on street tires.
Neither if i increase rear tires pressure. It looks very different and good in your video

 

[Scaff]

Are there some difference between PS4 and PC version,in physics regards?
It looks so much better in this video you posted.

Edit: I am trying,agaim,right now 4c on Ac PS4 version..i really can't get any oversteer on street tires.
Neither if i increase rear tires pressure. It looks very different and good in your video

How are you approaching it? In a second head corner when you feel understeer starting to build you need to breath off the throttle enough to get a bit more load over the front and for the tyres to reestablish grip, then reapply the throttle to over power the rears.

It works in reality and I've found it works well within AC.

As far PC vs PS4 versions go, it's been a while since I ran it on PS4, but as far as I can recall it wasn't noticeable different in terms of physics, all these are from the PS4 version.

 

[dabz343]

BTW - this is actually why 911 are actually stupidly stable under braking and not prone to corner entry oversteer, quite the opposite they are prone to corner entry understeer, only switching to oversteer if you lift, and at that point they will oversteer very, very rapidly.

I think the simulation of RR Porsches arriving at the transient phase through my inputs is one of the most misinterpreted aspects in all sims. I've yet to experience what feels natural...it all feels colored, artificial and simplified to me. There is a lot going on when you load a tire and my conclusion is that current math just isn't up to par...especially on consoles.

Btw, Aris has a fantastic channel -- bit granular for most, but...




Yes, that lift oversteer is what you end up trying to master.

 

[Firestone]

It looks like your front wheels are pointing straight even though the rear wheels are still spinning while I'm winding off the angle as the car straightens and rear wheels speed drops, I do the same thing on the exit of every corner.

Also not saying AC is perfect or the grip level is correct but at least the physics and FFB match real life, the cars react like they should.

I really don't know how that is an issue. This is a realistic trait, especially with the speed carried.



Notice at 1:52 his rear wheels are still spinning but his wheels are pointing straight.

 

[TeamCZRRacing]

I thought the same man.. this was back in like 2010 and I always pushed the car pretty hard on twisty back roads and it felt tight and stable…turned aids off one night except abs, hit the brakes just as normally do when I’m going a little too fast in a corner and the rear just slid out! I thought the car was broken man… did the research and found out it’s common on fwd to lose the rear when braking mid corner or not in a straight light while driving fast.

This is intentional to a degree. Sporty FWD cars are set up with loads of turn-in to counter the power-on understeer. That's how you get great-handling FWD cars despite the drivetrain's obvious performance drawbacks.

 

[extreme car]

Ok, I did that method and it worked

I do feel as if the car does want to snap back left, the thing that you mentioned. You can see it in the video. In AC it's just not as strong. I do still have an issue to the steering response in the game. Don't know if it is my wheel.

don't you think it's kind of weird that you can drift in assetto corsa after a few tries yet it took you couple of weeks and a patch to even catch the slide in GT7? I bet if you put in more days in Assetto corsa you can drift as good as any IRL videos you posted in this thread.

I'd like to note on your vid at 1:11, it's doing the same exact condition as my vid. Different camera angles give different perspectives. I hear that you are doing clutch kick with the car. So I still do feel as if the cars in AC are a bit to lazy on steering input. FRS steering input ratio is very snappy. I just don't get the same sense in feel as rl.

not lazy, realistic like the IRL video you posted. GT86 doesn't have a lot of torque so you either flick it or clutch kick it to upset the rear end of the car.

 

[driftnick13]

I really don't know how that is an issue. This is a realistic trait, especially with the speed carried.



Notice at 1:52 his rear wheels are still spinning but his wheels are pointing straight.

How it is happening in GT7 is not realistic and what is happening in that video is not the same thing, in that real video and my AC video the rear wheel slip is minimal and decreasing as the car straightens, in GT7 you can create a scenario where the rear wheel slip is still high but the car drives straight and that is what it looks like is happening in your GT7 video.

 

[Firestone]

How it is happening in GT7 is not realistic and what is happening in that video is not the same thing, in that real video and my AC video the rear wheel slip is minimal and decreasing as the car straightens, in GT7 you can create a scenario where the rear wheel slip is still high but the car drives straight and that is what it looks like is happening in your GT7 video.

Went back to check and it appears the tires do still smoke off after you regain grip. Looks to be just animation and nothing related to the physics.

I know at the end of the slide as the rl video, there was still lateral slide while the car was pointing straight.

don't you think it's kind of weird that you can drift in assetto corsa after a few tries yet it took you couple of weeks and a patch to even catch the slide in GT7? I bet if you put in more days in Assetto corsa you can drift as good as any IRL videos you posted in this thread.

not lazy, realistic like the IRL video you posted. GT86 doesn't have a lot of torque so you either flick it or clutch kick it to upset the rear end of the car.

Well, it was more the patch than me. I never drift in games nor took the time to learn, but I was able to do it in GT7 after 30 minutes of practice or so. Doesn't seem to be too difficult after you know how the car is going to shift and getting the right throttle input down relative to the pointed angle of the car.
The approach with AC, I just knew what to expect. But I did find it difficult to start a slide, even on eco tires. I owned an FRS and those tires come straight from a Prius and are garbage for grip. lol

The GT86 is an easy car to get sideways.

I don't believe clutch kick of flicks are happening here

 

[Firestone]

How are you approaching it? In a second head corner when you feel understeer starting to build you need to breath off the throttle enough to get a bit more load over the front and for the tyres to reestablish grip, then reapply the throttle to over power the rears.

It works in reality and I've found it works well within AC.

As far PC vs PS4 versions go, it's been a while since I ran it on PS4, but as far as I can recall it wasn't noticeable different in terms of physics, all these are from the PS4 version.

I can't for the life of me get the GT86 to oversteer under its own power. This should be more than possible.

180 deg steering angle in second gear at 3-4k rpm where the infamous torque dip occurs without having to toss the car to shift the weight at 0:12. In AC, the tires just skip across the surface and understeers and reduces power. For reference, the car is producing 150N.m at 1:1 gear ratio.

 

[Scaff]

I can't for the life of me get the GT86 to oversteer under its own power. This should be more than possible.

180 deg steering angle in second gear at 3-4k rpm where the infamous torque dip occurs without having to toss the car to shift the weight at 0:12. In AC, the tires just skip across the surface and understeers and reduces power. For reference, the car is producing 150N.m at 1:1 gear ratio.

Now aside from this really needs to go in the AC subforum, as it's clearly now about issues you are having with AC rather than GT7, I really don't see anything in that I haven't come across in AC.

Oh, and the only gear the car has a 1:1 ratio in is 5th, which is irrelevant.

 

[Td04]

I tryed in this way. I felt more accurate gt7 with his problems than Ac. Tomorrow i Will retry as you suggest

 

[LSFDRX]

So, that's exactly what makes no sense to me. The rear being very light means it won't go away and displace the car from the rear end, and instead it should understeer. It's basic physics, not that I'm a physicist but the basics are understandable.
On the other hand for example an old Porsche 911 with a lot of weight at the back its far more prone to oversteer.

It does make perfect sense. A FWD car is front biased with its weight, more is carried by the fronts, less by the rears naturally. With all that weight on the front, it is easy to use more than 100% of the front tires and understeer if this happens while you're turning. If you enter a corner and the front tires are sticking then you lift off the throttle or brake you transfer MORE weight to the front, making less over the rears. Combine that with cornering yaw (the side load of the corner pulling the tire sideways) and you have the ability to break the rear tires loose and oversteer. "Lift-throttle oversteer" is the most common way to keep a FWD car loose and the rear lively. There are many ways to manage the attitude of FWD cars with braking modulation, throttle lifting, and how you balance or unbalance the chassis with steering input.

In short, lift throttle to let the rear come loose, apply throttle to pull with the front wheels putting more weight on the back, and stabilizing the car. Just don't try to use more traction than the fronts can provide!

You turned off ABS aswell? A FWD car isn't supposed to oversteer with ABS system.

This doesn't have a lot do with FWD driving dynamics, and a competent FWD driver can make them oversteer at will no matter the braking set up. ABS might prevent the rear from locking if you get them light, but you can oversteer very easily long before ABS or braking in general have anything to do with it. If the rear is light, all inputs that effect the rears will be exaggerated.

 

[extreme car]

Well, it was more the patch than me. I never drift in games nor took the time to learn, but I was able to do it in GT7 after 30 minutes of practice or so. Doesn't seem to be too difficult after you know how the car is going to shift and getting the right throttle input down relative to the pointed angle of the car.

you were only able to catch drift in GT7 only after the patch, that shows that GT7 physics was flawed. Even after the latest patch the way you drifted that last corner at tsukuba looked weird, where the hot version video that I posted many pages ago he was able to drift the full last corner at tsukuba quite happily and predictably. PD still need to patch the RWD car physics further.



A refresher.

The approach with AC, I just knew what to expect. But I did find it difficult to start a slide, even on eco tires. I owned an FRS and those tires come straight from a Prius and are garbage for grip. lol

Once again I have to tell you this but I never had problem initiating the slide in both GT7 and AC, seems like you're having problem with weight transfer in Assetto Corsa.

The GT86 is an easy car to get sideways.

I don't believe clutch kick of flicks are happening here

who said otherwise? now you're comparing people losing grip while racing rather than people purposefully drift their car.

EDIT: was typing on my phone and it was horrible, rewrote on my laptop.

 

[SPOOLMAN]

New video. I'm using Sports medium. Yes the back end gets loose numerous times but it's intentional.

 

[R3V]

The tuning going from dropping fractions of PP to dropping 30+ points with one click (right or left), may be the reason physics are broken. I think I was right when the game came out. There's some grip calculator that under some speed, rotation angle and throttle position will spin you out with no warning. There's no other explanation for the sudden loss of rears, and why instead of understeering the faster you go, you suddenly snap.