Gran Turismo 7 Physics

[JDMKING13]

Very good. If must be my problem i guess.
Was this with street tires?

Add me too!😭

 

[RedRockValley]

Was having so much fun drifting an S13 around Tsukuba with CHs, stiff rear anti-roll bar and two-way LSD... then I realised I have work in 20 minutes 😭

I'll try uploading a video of a run with it when I get home!

 

[Goshin2568]

Perhaps they won’t stop the oversteer but make it easier to save it? The second snap back when you try to correct is what gets me a lot of the time. Presuming this is a weight transfer physics issue? @Scaff would be able to say if that’s accurate or not. Weight transfer is a big part of the physics in 7 where in Sport it was basically non existent. Then night have gone too far the other way.

Yes, this exactly. The reason this topic is so hard to have reasonable discussions about here is that there are 2 related but very different things going on, and people keep confusing them and/or not being clear about which they're referring to, so nobody really knows what anyone else is talking about.

For one, there is the limit of grip, specifically on the rear tires. Basically, how easy is it for the rear tires to break traction and step out.

The second is the behavior of the tires past that limit. How quickly the grip drops off, how easy it is to recover the grip, etc. This determines how easily you can recover the car once the rear tires lose traction.


Both of these things have changed drastically from GT sport, so it's not surprising that people are mixing them up, something something isolating variables haha. But imo only the second one is a major issue. I really enjoy how easy it is to get the rear loose. I feel like the throttle application required on corner exit is so much more realistic and fun than just "trailbrake to the apex then mash the throttle" that was how you drove a lot of cars on gt sport. The issue I think is that you have to be very very precise, more so than is realistic, because once you've broken traction on the rears the grip falls off a cliff and it's unreasonably and unrealistically difficult to recover.


If PD can fix this second issue without messing with the first one too much I'll be very happy.

 

[LSFDRX]

MY attitude is:

There are weaknesses that could be worked on for wider accessibility/acceptance, but it's NOT broken in my eyes. According to my definition, broken is something that does NOT work. What I don't see here from the start.

While I agree with many of your points, and I myself still love the game, your definition of broken leaves little room for grey area and I don't feel that it is correct.

If my car is broken, it could have a worn out control arm, or the motor could be blown. There is a difference in the two, as in one still allows the car to function mostly as a car, while the other leads to the car being unable to move itself. It's still "broken" in either instance, but one is clearly less effected, and there is a use case for one while there isn't for the other.

With GT7, there are cars that are broken. Now, whether or not this goes hand in hand with the "snap issues" is up for debate, but they are still specifically broken whereas other cars aren't. Ford GT and the Audi LMS are both FUNDAMENTALLY wrong, Camaro ZL1, E46 M3, BRZ and so many others are fantastic to drive, and I have little issue with them.

So, yes, I would say that there are still things that are broken with GT7, but that doesn't mean its ALL broken, just certain aspects of it. They need to change, but for most of us we still love the game and the added challenge of 7 is welcome. To me, Sport is flat out EASY and kinda BORING after getting used to 7. The challenge means a lot to me. It's the unrealistic things that suck, like the R8 LMS, and its a real shame in those cases and it really calls into question what is going on physically when a modern GT3 car is basically an undrivable monster instead of the grippy and compliant thing it truly is.

All that said, I truly hope they address the issues with the broken cars, work with the physics to make oversteer a more realistic and pliable thing like it is in real life, all the while not dumbing everything down to boredom. I'd rather it stay the broken way it is than become Sport.

 

[xMAXIx79]

While I agree with many of your points, and I myself still love the game, your definition of broken leaves little room for grey area and I don't feel that it is correct.

If my car is broken, it could have a worn out control arm, or the motor could be blown. There is a difference in the two, as in one still allows the car to function mostly as a car, while the other leads to the car being unable to move itself. It's still "broken" in either instance, but one is clearly less effected, and there is a use case for one while there isn't for the other.

With GT7, there are cars that are broken. Now, whether or not this goes hand in hand with the "snap issues" is up for debate, but they are still specifically broken whereas other cars aren't. Ford GT and the Audi LMS are both FUNDAMENTALLY wrong, Camaro ZL1, E46 M3, BRZ and so many others are fantastic to drive, and I have little issue with them.

So, yes, I would say that there are still things that are broken with GT7, but that doesn't mean its ALL broken, just certain aspects of it. They need to change, but for most of us we still love the game and the added challenge of 7 is welcome. To me, Sport is flat out EASY and kinda BORING after getting used to 7. The challenge means a lot to me. It's the unrealistic things that suck, like the R8 LMS, and its a real shame in those cases and it really calls into question what is going on physically when a modern GT3 car is basically an undrivable monster instead of the grippy and compliant thing it truly is.

All that said, I truly hope they address the issues with the broken cars, work with the physics to make oversteer a more realistic and pliable thing like it is in real life, all the while not dumbing everything down to boredom. I'd rather it stay the broken way it is than become Sport.

I think I see what you mean, it's just how it is for me, especially after the translation, which means "broken" = no longer usable / unusable / completely damaged.
If, at least that's my opinion, words like defective or insufficient were used instead of "broken", I could accept some of the statements. Because I also find some vehicles a little too "snapy".

I once posted one of my videos from my CE S2 in Derp Forest. You can see that the car moves relatively well and quickly BUT and I agree with everyone who observes it objectively and fairly, it is difficult to drive and so difficult that it is not competitive. On the other hand, if he was so fast that if ridden perfectly he would be the ultimate meta, I wouldn't mind, but unfortunately that's not the case.

 

[NikNakTobasco]

For anyone that has a wheel and wants to see a very stark demonstration of the completely different game controller users are playing; try northern isle speedway circuit experience with a wheel then with a pad.

 

[Hobson]

For anyone that has a wheel and wants to see a very stark demonstration of the completely different game controller users are playing; try northern isle speedway circuit experience with a wheel then with a pad.

Is that the one with the Corvette? I was pulling my hairs out trying to hold and modulate steering lock, and I gave up after after 30m of trying to beat a 19.37x.
I'm a better drifter than a racer, and that was a horrible time all around. I feel like it's over exaggerating the steering vs what I'm trying to do on the thumb stick.

 

[NikNakTobasco]

Is that the one with the Corvette? I was pulling my hairs out trying to hold and modulate steering lock, and I gave up after after 30m of trying to beat a 19.37x.
I'm a better drifter than a racer, and that was a horrible time all around. I feel like it's over exaggerating the steering vs what I'm trying to do on the thumb stick.

That’s the one. I tried like 10 times with the wheel to drive a car in a circle. Which I couldn’t do. Controller was second try. First try was to work out the buttons.

 

[Hobson]

That’s the one. I tried like 10 times with the wheel to drive a car in a circle. Which I couldn’t do. Controller was second try. First try was to work out the buttons.

Yeah, I don't really understand why it's so different VS wheel. The "secret" controller assist, or whatever you want to call it at this point makes everything feel stiff and disconnected. GT Sport's steering was smoother and more enjoyable, GT7s steering feels like step backwards.

 

[extreme car]

Very good. If must be my problem i guess.
Was this with street tires?

no, it was with economy tyre like what the real GT86 comes with. why you want me to try and use a higher grade tyre?

EDIT: btw if you drive in assetto corsa like you drive in GT7 then I'm not surprised that you're having a hard time losing rear tyre grip, because in GT7 even the slightest amount of steering and throttle input will make the rear traction break even when you're not in the RPM and torque range of the car. in AC you gotta be really aggresive with the throttle, steering and weight transfer while being smooth to lose rear traction and drift. this is my last time discussing AC physics in this thread cause this is the wrong thread to be discussing AC physics.

 

[JDMKING13]

Yes, this exactly. The reason this topic is so hard to have reasonable discussions about here is that there are 2 related but very different things going on, and people keep confusing them and/or not being clear about which they're referring to, so nobody really knows what anyone else is talking about.

For one, there is the limit of grip, specifically on the rear tires. Basically, how easy is it for the rear tires to break traction and step out.

The second is the behavior of the tires past that limit. How quickly the grip drops off, how easy it is to recover the grip, etc. This determines how easily you can recover the car once the rear tires lose traction.


Both of these things have changed drastically from GT sport, so it's not surprising that people are mixing them up, something something isolating variables haha. But imo only the second one is a major issue. I really enjoy how easy it is to get the rear loose. I feel like the throttle application required on corner exit is so much more realistic and fun than just "trailbrake to the apex then mash the throttle" that was how you drove a lot of cars on gt sport. The issue I think is that you have to be very very precise, more so than is realistic, because once you've broken traction on the rears the grip falls off a cliff and it's unreasonably and unrealistically difficult to recover.


If PD can fix this second issue without messing with the first one too much I'll be very happy.

Great breakdown man, and for me at least catching the car after I loose it isn’t that hard at least anymore.. rarely do I spin.. it more so just my lap time suffering.

 

[RedRockValley]

Great breakdown man, and for me at least catching the car after I loose it isn’t that hard at least anymore.. rarely do I spin.. it more so just my lap time suffering.

I tend to notice the issues most when drifting. While it's fun in GT7, drifting is definitely where the physics shows it's flaws the most.

Grip driving however, very fun and I find I rarely spin out aswell.

 

[UnkaD]

I finally decided to put in the time to set up my wheel in the living room. First time using my T-GT in GT7. I loved using it in GT Sport, but I was completely mortified with this new experience.

I can't drive any car around a single lap without spinning out. It is absolutely impossible for me to settle the car after a slide until it has come to a complete stop. Just the tiniest hint of rotation toward the inside and I might as well just hit retry right away. Even with the set-ups I made to reduce the snappiness when using the Dual Sense.

I have no idea when I'm close to losing grip, and once it's there it's already too late. I feel like today has just been a waste of time and it's really bumming me out.

 

[RedRockValley]

Even with the set-ups I made to reduce the snappiness when using the Dual Sense.

I can't comment on the wheel stuff because I honestly haven't been bothered enough to hook my wheel up to my PS4 yet, but have you tried reducing controller sensitivity to -1 when using the controller?

I found that REALLY helped me with the snappiness feeling, honestly it should be the default setting.

 

[Techlet]

While that helps with smoothing out your steering input in some situations, the reduced response will make recovering from the inevitable slide next to impossible.

Very evident in dirt races and drift challenges.

 

[ScottPuss20]

I drove the F12 yesterday with traction control off and it revealed a bit more about the tyre model to me. The car grips just fine through corners when you keep the throttle below 50%, but as soon as you give it more than that, the car steps out immediately. The grip loss is not very progressive and that's what bugs me the most about the physics. Make no mistake people, the tyre model is flawed and needs to be changed to allow for more control at and above the limit. You shouldn't have to constantly catch slides when you're barely exceeding the physical limitations of the tyre.

 

[dabz343]

Still some beta testing for me. The game overall is more than acceptable for a sim on console, but today's experience added to the confusion...can't seem to narrow the window of what is problematic.

I went to my buddy's place to try out his Fanatic DD. First impression was, the FFB felt livelier...more nuanced. I drove my favorite Gr3 Alfa and the Gr4 BMW M4 -- both had communicative FFB and a surprising level of traction. Then I tried the Gr3 Nissan GTR...a very strange experience. On my TGT, the GTR is planted with understeer being dominant. On the DD, the GTR was like the Gr4 M4 on my TGT - squirrelly and tempermental.

Not sure if the global physics or modeling of individual cars are the problem, or if the FFB for all the different wheels are adding to the confusion.

 

[Wedge2022]

I actually love the new Physics ... seems like the way people are describing they're experiences they haven't stuck with it very long, or they're new to using a wheel or new to sim-racing (I know this isn't everyone) but...alot of comments are like "I tried this and the car did that" but its clearly doing that for all of us and yet alot of us are still getting gold in challenges by sticking with it and adapting and enjoying it... so I don't' find the cars to be that unforgiving honestly and if they are I just tune them not to be, which I thought was the point. But maybe it needs to be like just 10 percent easier... I'm honestly more worried they'll dumb it down too far to the point of Sport where it was actually impossible to make a mistake... I have zero memory of ever even spinning a car in Sport with either a controller or a wheel (I may have in the rain..but I don't really remember)

Coming from iRacing (where we know a thing or two about snap oversteer) .. the difference here is you can actually recover the car out of the box at least a fair amount of the time ... iRacing took literally 10 years to get to the point where when you broke the back-end loose you could actually recover the slide by doing what you would in real life (ease off throttle and counter-steer) ... but GT7 is pretty savable right now and it makes kicking the back end out really fun

and if the car isn't working you literally can just swap the differential and problem solved anyway - Was trying to run High Speed Ring with a stock Camaro and every 2nd lap it kicked out and even if I did save it I lost so much time I couldn't get 1st place .... I just put an LSD in the car and it completely fixed it

I've only tested this with a Fanatec Clubsport ..but my friend who is an experienced GT player uses a Logitech g29 and beats me on quite a few missions/liscense tests so I know it can't be that bad with either wheel

 

[UnkaD]

I can't comment on the wheel stuff because I honestly haven't been bothered enough to hook my wheel up to my PS4 yet, but have you tried reducing controller sensitivity to -1 when using the controller?

I found that REALLY helped me with the snappiness feeling, honestly it should be the default setting.

I run with sensitivity at 5, but I've found ways to make the cars behave with set-up. I'm finally comfortable with the game on controller, at least to the point where I can enjoy my time and push a bit. But with the wheel, it felt like all I could do was pace laps.

 

[Firestone]

I'm talking about the other time you said you couldn't drift like a video you posted then I made a video showing you can easily do it, Scaff also posted a video proving what you said was wrong, again we have the same thing happening, each time what you said doing those things wasn't possible in AC when it clearly is.

Here I made another video, another else you can't do in AC?

I never said it was impossible to drift. My whole argument was the car does not react as it should under power. The car should be able to slide under its own power.
I've made a video of a drive at Barcelona. The final chicane I tried to get the car's balance neutral, turn the steering at a high angle and mash the throttle. The car just does a strange understeer. Even on the final turn, I mash the throttle and the car doesn't respond at all to the input.


This guy made a near 2 minute video of what the car should do under these conditions in 2nd gear. This is completely possible in GT.

Also, high speed cornering doesn't seem very accurate. I've said before, car's steering feel very lazy in the game. The whole understeer mechanic completely throws of how you should drive.

Oh dear more compilation of amateurs losing it rather than pros that knows how to review the cars properly. if you want to discuss about the effects of bad throttle/steering input please discuss it with someone else, I have no issue with those in GT7.

Look like he's under control to me. See videos above. I made a video at Barcelona checking out the GT86's balance in AC. I tried to drive it hard. Long sweeping corner, I can go at full throttle at 180 steering input and the car's front tires just skips across the surface. The car doesn't want to oversteer on throttle, as in GT7 and as in the rl video.

Define dynamic, cause losing rear traction on low torque car at low rpm, and high gear is not "dynamic" in my book. I drifted tsukuba's entire last corner in a RX-8 in 5th gear at 4500-4800 RPM, and the car managed to have enough torque at 3000RPM to spin the car around with full opposite lock at the tsukuba's 1st corner.

Well, I'll say I simply don't know. A certain applied force will always have an easier time overcoming kinetic than static friction. I think the key is not being able to overpower and rev above the drag in the power drain from the tires. Being a high speed sweeping turn, it will always be easy break traction and slide.

I can't tell if this is a serious post it's so dumb.

Explain what is so dumb about this?

An issue only you seem to have.

Not only me.

 

[Techlet]

and if the car isn't working you literally can just swap the differential and problem solved anyway - Was trying to run High Speed Ring with a stock Camaro and every 2nd lap it kicked out and even if I did save it I lost so much time I couldn't get 1st place .... I just put an LSD in the car and it completely fixed it

How do you install an LSD in BoP races?

 

[extreme car]

I never said it was impossible to drift. My whole argument was the car does not react as it should under power. The car should be able to slide under its own power.
I've made a video of a drive at Barcelona. The final chicane I tried to get the car's balance neutral, turn the steering at a high angle and mash the throttle. The car just does a strange understeer. Even on the final turn, I mash the throttle and the car doesn't respond at all to the input.

judging from the video without steering input, it looks more like a you problem than AC physics to me. seriously though, go discuss AC physics at the AC subforum they'll gladly help you over there.

This guy made a near 2 minute video of what the car should do under these conditions in 2nd gear. This is completely possible in GT.

Also, high speed cornering doesn't seem very accurate. I've said before, car's steering feel very lazy in the game. The whole understeer mechanic completely throws of how you should drive.

I only agree with one thing from this and that is the steering in AC is a bit lazy but other than that GT86 feel very much lively and fun to drive in AC, I can easily switch from being a hoon to a grip car as I want in AC the same couldn't be said in GT7.

Look like he's under control to me. See videos above. I made a video at Barcelona checking out the GT86's balance in AC. I tried to drive it hard. Long sweeping corner, I can go at full throttle at 180 steering input and the car's front tires just skips across the surface. The car doesn't want to oversteer on throttle, as in GT7 and as in the rl video.

no he's not, his steering input is all over the place. once again seems like a you problem, GT86 doesn't have the torque to slip it's rear tyre when you drop your RPM too much. the car break it's rear traction just fine when you're in the power band like my previous AC video.

Well, I'll say I simply don't know. A certain applied force will always have an easier time overcoming kinetic than static friction. I think the key is not being able to overpower and rev above the drag in the power drain from the tires. Being a high speed sweeping turn, it will always be easy break traction and slide.

so you don't know wheter it's normal for a RX-8 to lose traction on high speed corner in 5th gear at 5000RPM? Do you at least know RX-8 makes it's power at 7000-9000rpm? also what?

Tiff Needell on the RX-8:
"You're lacking the power, you're lacking the torque. to get the most performance you need to rev high to keep the power up"
"very neutrally well balanced car"

 

[Firestone]

judging from the video without steering input, it looks more like a you problem than AC physics to me. seriously though, go discuss AC physics at the AC subforum they'll gladly help you over there.

I only agree with one thing from this and that is the steering in AC is a bit lazy but other than that GT86 feel very much lively and fun to drive in AC, I can easily switch from being a hoon to a grip car as I want in AC the same couldn't be said in GT7.

I mean, as I actually owned the car and hooned it around. Steering is very sharp and direct. I know how to drive a car. lol. The steering was at 180 deg in AC. It shouldn't be doing this at full throttle as shown in the rl video examples. GT7's balance between understeer and oversteer with the car is replicated well and stays true to the car's capabilities.

GT86 doesn't have the torque to slip it's rear tyre when you drop your RPM too much. the car break it's rear traction just fine when you're in the power band like my previous AC video.

Most of the low rpm driving is around 4k. This is where the torque dips. The car has enough torque even then to send the car into an oversteer.

so you don't know wheter it's normal for a RX-8 to lose traction on high speed corner in 5th gear at 5000RPM? Do you at least know RX-8 makes it's power at 7000-9000rpm? also what?

Any car can lose traction in high speed corners. The S2k vid is an example of what can happen at high speeds. I don't know what is in the realm of possibilities, but I will admit it is sus, but will neither accept or reject it.

 

[extreme car]

Most of the low rpm driving is around 4k. This is where the torque dips. The car has enough torque even then to send the car into an oversteer.

lol no, 3000-4000 RPM is where the infamous torque dip occurs on the BRZ/GT86 you can't get the car to lose their rear traction on power at that low of RPM.

Any car can lose traction in high speed corners. The S2k vid is an example of what can happen at high speeds. I don't know what is in the realm of possibilities, but I will admit it is sus, but will neither accept or reject it.

IRL S2k first gen is a well known car to snap without warning, so they got that right in GT7. RX8 is a well balanced car IRL, and it lost traction on power at a very low RPM and high gear in GT7. you just contradicted yourself on that last sentence.

 

[Johnnn]

I finally decided to put in the time to set up my wheel in the living room. First time using my T-GT in GT7. I loved using it in GT Sport, but I was completely mortified with this new experience.

I can't drive any car around a single lap without spinning out. It is absolutely impossible for me to settle the car after a slide until it has come to a complete stop. Just the tiniest hint of rotation toward the inside and I might as well just hit retry right away. Even with the set-ups I made to reduce the snappiness when using the Dual Sense.

I have no idea when I'm close to losing grip, and once it's there it's already too late. I feel like today has just been a waste of time and it's really bumming me out.

It's about detect when spin could come. It was hard to me first because of camera and maybe weird physics but currently I can tell you exactly what is too much and what is not. Finally I can go on a limit and feel like a racer. It's all there but it's a bit hidden and you need to be extremely precise.

 

[Marckyboy]

At 4500rpm a rx8 got about 130-140hp.
When your rx-8 stepped out was that on a heated up sticky tire?

Not overly hot no, just asked too much of the rear, traction control was on and took care of it but plenty enough power to spin out at 4500 rpm

 

[Marckyboy]

Yeah, I don't really understand why it's so different VS wheel. The "secret" controller assist, or whatever you want to call it at this point makes everything feel stiff and disconnected. GT Sport's steering was smoother and more enjoyable, GT7s steering feels like step backwards.

I found this one was all about coming off the throttle pedal carefully and holding enough throttle to be steady round the corner. No issues with steering on my g29 wheel. Didn't use the brakes at all.

 

[Hobson]

I found this one was all about coming off the throttle pedal carefully and holding enough throttle to be steady round the corner. No issues with steering on my g29 wheel. Didn't use the brakes at all.

That's the whole point, I can slowly come off of gas but I can't slowly feed my steering because I'm on a DS4 controller. Trying to lower the sensitivity just puts the Corvette into the wall with a good snap/spinning out on the bank from lack of steering

 

[Firestone]

lol no, 3000-4000 RPM is where the infamous torque dip occurs on the BRZ/GT86 you can't get the car to lose their rear traction on power at that low of RPM.

Huh? The dip occurs between the 3.2k and 4.6k with the lowest part of the dip occurring at 4k. I remember pulling off in 2nd gear and the car would drag along then all of a sudden get lively again.

IRL S2k first gen is a well known car to snap without warning, so they got that right in GT7. RX8 is a well balanced car IRL, and it lost traction on power at a very low RPM and high gear in GT7. you just contradicted yourself on that last sentence.

There nothing weird about a car breaking traction at a high speed corner.

 

[RedRockValley]

While that helps with smoothing out your steering input in some situations, the reduced response will make recovering from the inevitable slide next to impossible.

Very evident in dirt races and drift challenges.

Oh yeah it's definitely not a complete fix, but I find it really helps me, even in drifting/dirt scenarios.

I suppose it also comes down to driving style too, though...