Gran Turismo 7 Physics

[driftnick13]

I mean, as I actually owned the car and hooned it around. Steering is very sharp and direct. I know how to drive a car. lol. The steering was at 180 deg in AC.

It looks like you are turning to much and your timing is off though it's hard to tell because you didn't show steering input.

I never said it was impossible to drift.

The example I gave was pure throttle application and steering angle. You can't do this in AC.

In the video, the driver flicks the wheel to start a slide in 3rd gear. I could not get this to happen in AC with the eco tires, but this is possible in GT. The cars don't rotate in AC. You can go test this with the GT86. I flick the wheel and mash the throttle and the car just doesn't respond. AC does not get this right.

You said you can't do it in AC, quite clearly you can.

Explain what is so dumb about this?

The scenario is very different.

There nothing weird about a car breaking traction at a high speed corner.

Holding a drift like that doing 90-120 in 5th or 6th gear in an Rx-8 or 86 is weird.

 

[extreme car]

Huh? The dip occurs between the 3.2k and 4.6k with the lowest part of the dip occurring at 4k. I remember pulling off in 2nd gear and the car would drag along then all of a sudden get lively again.

nope the dip is at 3k-4k i remembered it well cause I was around that RPM on 6th gear on the highway and the car doesn't go anywhere when you full throttle it.

There nothing weird about a car breaking traction at a high speed corner.

yeah read my post properly then reply. I'll even bold it for you here.

IRL S2k first gen is a well known car to snap without warning, so they got that right in GT7. RX8 is a well balanced car IRL, and it lost traction on power at a very low RPM and high gear in GT7. you just contradicted yourself on that last sentence.

 

[nickg07]

I think people need to understand 2 things here.

I could throw a pedal bike into a 90 degree turn without pedaling and make the rear tyre lose grip and slide.

This is a simple loss of grip and weight shift at a steep angle. You can do this in a fwd car and put it sideways if you throw it in hard enough (you might even roll it over if you do enough and it has a higher center of gravity)


This is separate to going know a corner at a shallow angle and forcing a loss of grip by over accelerating the tyre to lose grip and therefore potentially oversteering the car.

So of course you can technically lose rear traction in 90% of underpowered rwd cars by throwing the car in.

 

[nummer0]

Based on my experience from owning some RWD and AWD cars I will have my 2 cents.


BMW 325i, 192hp on street tires on street asphalt couldn't break traction in 3rd gear on throttle in a corner regardless of engine speed (powerband), of course I could've thrown it into a corner by being too agressive with my steering input but then it wouldn't have been a powerslide but a loss of control.
Same car had difficulties breaking traction (ie. powersliding) in 2nd gear if the speed wasn't high enough, ie. if I was outside of it's powerband. Tires were 205/65/R16

Jaguar XF 20d AWD (180hp) couldn't break traction on throttle at all. Dynamic mode, manual shifting and TCS off. I never broke traction with it, it just couldn't (245/45/R18 tires).

Jaguar I-Pace EV400 could break traction on throttle in low speed corners (ie. roundabouts). Dynamic mode, TCS off. Tires were 235/50/R20.

Also, I would also like to mention another car I owned which could break traction off throttle - Fiat 500 Abarth (131hp). This used to happen in 2nd gear, typical example of lift off oversteer. On throttle it had slippage in 1st and 2nd gear out of corners. But as a FF car it is expected. Tires were 195/60/R15.


Therefore, based on my experiences - tires and general traction in GT7 is very poorly represented. RH tires are the closest to regular street tires in regards to grip levels provided.

Again, I only mention ON THROTTLE slippage, with violent steering input you can make a bicycle slide (as someone else stated in this thread).

 

[JDMKING13]

I mean, as I actually owned the car and hooned it around. Steering is very sharp and direct. I know how to drive a car. lol. The steering was at 180 deg in AC. It shouldn't be doing this at full throttle as shown in the rl video examples. GT7's balance between understeer and oversteer with the car is replicated well and stays true to the car's capabilities.

Yea I’m going to have to agree with you from just watching videos on the car and I have a couple of friends who own them. They are fun cars and can oversteer pretty easy on command.

 

[dabz343]

Do you think PD calculates all of the links in the suspension geometry, especially under load? I think at some point they have to take a simpler approach, because the calculus of all the squishing parts are too much for the required latency. GT7 is a leap in progress, but it isn't a destination...just being impartial.

 

[Wedge2022]

How do you install an LSD in BoP races?

Thats an excellent question but under the circumstances I described (camero on high speed ring) I would hope you wouldnt need to....I highly doubt a GR3 or GR4 car would replicate the problem I was having ... That said your right foot would have to be your LSD, like the porsche liscense test on again HSRing.....same thing and took me quite a few tries but throttle control got me to gold after awhile .....

 

[extreme car]

Yea I’m going to have to agree with you from just watching videos on the car and I have a couple of friends who own them. They are fun cars and can oversteer pretty easy on command.

yeah I agree on command. not every single corner exit at a weirdly low RPM and high gear.

 

[Skinny McLean]

Do you think PD calculates all of the links in the suspension geometry, especially under load?

Judging from the car parameters in the GT Sport executable, probably not. Much is seemingly governed by very coarse look-up tables, e.g. things like "camber-grip" and tyre μ on both x and y axes. And before someone objects that GT7 is a totally new and radically different game, everything from oil changes to the "planetarium" is included or mentioned in some form in GTS. As is shuffle races, b-spec and exporting of Motec telemetry.

 

[Firestone]

It looks like you are turning to much and your timing is off though it's hard to tell because you didn't show steering input.

I don’t think my steering input is the issue at hand here. Like I’ve said before I’ve owned this car and the rear end is ready to kick out on demand with simple steering and throttle input. The car is very sharp.
Made another video with steering shown. For some reason with the animation, it doesn't move at 360 degrees like the PC vids shown. I verified that the tires are going full turn with my G27 input.

You said you can't do it in AC, quite clearly you can.

My whole argument centered around steering and throttle input to get the car sliding. AC is fundamentally flawed with this regard.

The scenario is very different.

The whole argument started with the GR86 being able to maintain a slide in 4th gear as if this is flawed. So what makes it so different?

Holding a drift like that doing 90-120 in 5th or 6th gear in an Rx-8 or 86 is weird.

100+kph. Looks weird. I wouldn't discount the possibility of it nor will I say it's realistic. There's a potential to overload the engine and drivetrain though. The great thing about sims is you can test out a bunch of nonsense things that no one would waste their seat time with irl.

nope the dip is at 3k-4k i remembered it well cause I was around that RPM on 6th gear on the highway and the car doesn't go anywhere when you full throttle it.

The valley goes past 4k. 4k still has usable torque to spin the car. The overall torque band is low anyways.

https://tuningpro.co/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Stock-BRZ-Torque-Dip-Dyno-Chart-1024x767.jpg

yeah read my post properly then reply. I'll even bold it for you here.

Being a well balanced car does not prevent it from being slippy.

 

[driftnick13]

I don’t think my steering input is the issue at hand here. Like I’ve said before I’ve owned this car and the rear end is ready to kick out on demand with simple steering and throttle input. The car is very sharp.
Made another video with steering shown. For some reason with the animation, it doesn't move at 360 degrees like the PC vids shown. I verified that the tires are going full turn with my G27 input.

So like 180 degree rotation in game is you going full lock with your wheel? if so you are turning way to much.

 

[Firestone]

So like 180 degree rotation in game is you going full lock with your wheel? if so you are turning way to much.

No, I'm not full locking my wheel. I go 180 deg max. This should break the rear end out. 90-180 under full throttle, not scrub the front tires and not turn. The steering animation isn't 1:1.

 

[driftnick13]

No, I'm not full locking my wheel. I go 180 deg max. This should break the rear end out. 90-180 under full throttle, not scrub the front tires and not turn. The steering animation isn't 1:1.

The outside and inside animations are different? how much are you turning the wheel when the in car is at 90 degrees?

 

[extreme car]

I don’t think my steering input is the issue at hand here. Like I’ve said before I’ve owned this car and the rear end is ready to kick out on demand with simple steering and throttle input. The car is very sharp.
Made another video with steering shown. For some reason with the animation, it doesn't move at 360 degrees like the PC vids shown. I verified that the tires are going full turn with my G27 input.

Obviously there is something really wrong with your steering input cause you only have 360° range. How did you get your g27 to work with the PS4?

My whole argument centered around steering and throttle input to get the car sliding. AC is fundamentally flawed with this regard.

works fine for me, no clutch kick no flick all power and the right steering input.

The whole argument started with the GR86 being able to maintain a slide in 4th gear as if this is flawed. So what makes it so different?

Nah it started with @tedaxe maintaining a 5th gear drift with a higher grade tyre than the oem tyre provided for the car. 4th gear and 5th gear makes a huge difference in terms of torque calculation.

100+kph. Looks weird. I wouldn't discount the possibility of it nor will I say it's realistic. There's a potential to overload the engine and drivetrain though. The great thing about sims is you can test out a bunch of nonsense things that no one would waste their seat time with irl.

It also test sims physics flaw as well.

The valley goes past 4k. 4k still has usable torque to spin the car. The overall torque band is low anyways.

https://tuningpro.co/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Stock-BRZ-Torque-Dip-Dyno-Chart-1024x767.jpg

Then why wasn't I sliding all over the place when I plant the throttle 6th gear at 3000RPM?

Being a well balanced car does not prevent it from being slippy.

Stop nit picking my post to support your argument. Answer the whole question.

RX8 is a well balanced car IRL, and it lost traction on power at a very low RPM and high gear in GT7.

 

[Td04]

Probably he just didn't change steer animation on option menù

 

[Skython]

I don’t think my steering input is the issue at hand here. Like I’ve said before I’ve owned this car and the rear end is ready to kick out on demand with simple steering and throttle input. The car is very sharp.
Made another video with steering shown. For some reason with the animation, it doesn't move at 360 degrees like the PC vids shown. I verified that the tires are going full turn with my G27 input.





My whole argument centered around steering and throttle input to get the car sliding. AC is fundamentally flawed with this regard.

The whole argument started with the GR86 being able to maintain a slide in 4th gear as if this is flawed. So what makes it so different?

100+kph. Looks weird. I wouldn't discount the possibility of it nor will I say it's realistic. There's a potential to overload the engine and drivetrain though. The great thing about sims is you can test out a bunch of nonsense things that no one would waste their seat time with irl.

The valley goes past 4k. 4k still has usable torque to spin the car. The overall torque band is low anyways.

https://tuningpro.co/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Stock-BRZ-Torque-Dip-Dyno-Chart-1024x767.jpg

Being a well balanced car does not prevent it from being slippy.

I'll be honest, I think your AC wheel settings are fundamentally flawed. In Assetto Corsa if you turn your wheel fully one way and hard accelerate it will plow forwards with horrific understeer, that's what you're doing. In track driving you don't use full lock like, ever. Your wheel rotation is too low, so the ingame rotation is far higher than what is shown on your screen and is what leads to that understeer.

 

[Johnnn]

Do you think PD calculates all of the links in the suspension geometry, especially under load?

The problem is probably PS4. They can calculate anything on PS5 but you have very old HW too. It must be hard to built consistent physics then. AI is another problem. You can improve it for sure but only on PS5.

 

[xMAXIx79]

The problem is probably PS4. They can calculate anything on PS5 but you have very old HW too. It must be hard to built consistent physics then. AI is another problem. You can improve it for sure but only on PS5.

Seriously, how much idea do you have of this matter?

Why the hell is any guess as to why something isn't programmed to be "better or more complex" pushed to the fact that this game runs on the PS4?

Please prove your assumption/supposition based on comprehensible numbers about the processor load for the physics calculations ectr. compared to the power required to calculate the graphic effects, almost all other calculations are "light".

Other sims with apparently much better calculations also seem to run without any problems on the PS4.

What is a huge difference is the processing power in the graphics area, so the PS4 will never be able to do 4k smoothly at 60 FPS with a similar level of detail as the PS5. The 1080p of the PS4 with 60FPS requires significantly less power, in addition there is a significantly reduced graphic quality (which is still great for PS4 standards).


On the topic itself.. it is remarkable how long, how often and how painfully this topic is shifted from one extreme to the other.

What has been going through my head for a long time is rather the following.
If Michelin is/was an official partner of PD in this game and was significantly involved in the development of the tire model in the game, at least one knowledgeable and experienced person at Michelin who either plays himself or has a child who plays would have noticed can/should that the current tire model has major weaknesses/faults. Or the error is not as big as some people think and is within a certain "tolerance range". I can't and won't assume anything in one direction or the other, but I'm thinking about how that can be. Especially since Michelin not only builds tires for children's bikes or similar, but also has a "quite useful" tire for the somewhat faster pace in its range here and there.

 

[Marckyboy]

Here is a YouTube video I found of that very stable Mazda rx8 losing traction as there seems to be some debate about that car. Having owned one it may be stable but you can have it step out on you without much effort if you don't drive properly.

 

[nickg07]

Here is a YouTube video I found of that very stable Mazda rx8 losing traction as there seems to be some debate about that car. Having owned one it may be stable but you can have it step out on you without much effort if you don't drive properly.

There was no snap back... and it was almost a hairpin.

And he ended up facing the right way which is virtually impossible in gt7 which always ends up 180 you.

 

[Firestone]

The outside and inside animations are different? how much are you turning the wheel when the in car is at 90 degrees?

When I turn 90, the animation is at 90. Anything beyond that, the animation ratio changes but the ratio with the actual tires in the game seem correct.

Obviously there is something really wrong with your steering input cause you only have 360° range. How did you get your g27 to work with the PS4?

I’ll correct myself. I have full 900 degrees of rotation in the game. The steering animation just doesn’t show this. I used DiveHub for the G27. It just a piggyback for it. The G27 and G29 design are basically identical. Drive him just authenticates the wheel for PS4 and PS5 use.

works fine for me, no clutch kick no flick all power and the right steering input.

I’ve seen some instances of throttle input and no rotation on power. From my testing, it seems conditional to get the car to rotate. I try to drive aggressive like the rl video of the guy I posted and the car doesn’t react the same way. There are instances where he is on a long sweeping right in 3rd on throttle and the car just wants to oversteer on him with him having to correct his steering. I tried to mimick this, but the car doesn’t react the same. In GT7 on long sweeps, you get on the throttle and the care will do something similar to the video.

Nah it started with @tedaxe maintaining a 5th gear drift with a higher grade tyre than the oem tyre provided for the car. 4th gear and 5th gear makes a huge difference in terms of torque calculation.

He started his argument for 4th gear, then moved on from there. 4th is possible, but I’m not defending the 5th gear argument. Oh m just saying I simply don’t know.

Then why wasn't I sliding all over the place when I plant the throttle 6th gear at 3000RPM?

Don’t think that happens in GT7 also.

Stop nit picking my post to support your argument. Answer the whole question

But that statement doesn’t prove anything. Any car can lose balance in any gear at those speeds. You tires have a lateral load limit.

Probably he just didn't change steer animation on option menù

Where can you change the steering animation?

I'll be honest, I think your AC wheel settings are fundamentally flawed. In Assetto Corsa if you turn your wheel fully one way and hard accelerate it will plow forwards with horrific understeer, that's what you're doing. In track driving you don't use full lock like, ever. Your wheel rotation is too low, so the ingame rotation is far higher than what is shown on your screen and is what leads to that understeer.

I wasn’t using full rotation on my testing. Are there steering setting options on the game? I don’t see any. This is on the PS4 version.

 

[dabz343]

Judging from the car parameters in the GT Sport executable, probably not. Much is seemingly governed by very coarse look-up tables, e.g. things like "camber-grip" and tyre μ on both x and y axes. And before someone objects that GT7 is a totally new and radically different game, everything from oil changes to the "planetarium" is included or mentioned in some form in GTS. As is shuffle races, b-spec and exporting of Motec telemetry.

I posted that just to remind people that there are fundamental limitations in what a console can deliver, even the network with pings and things have to be accounted for at some point in bringing the experience cohesively together.

This isn't a criticism, more of a baseline to help keep our expectations on a reasonable level...but it does trigger another question -- how did PD design the physics code so that it works well on PS4? Is PS5 running the same code, thus graphic improvements are the only differences?

 

[Td04]

@Firestone if i Remember good,from main menù,look at option menù. Somewhere there is a slide to set steering's animation degrees.

 

[LSFDRX]

There was no snap back... and it was almost a hairpin.

And he ended up facing the right way which is virtually impossible in gt7 which always ends up 180 you.

No snap because he never got back to traction. Facing the right way because he kept his foot in it and kept it there 'til the car went around. This happens, and can happen, in GT7 all the time. Nothing to see here.

This thread is intensely frustrating to read. These "but this happens at this point" and yadda yadda scenarios need to be almost exactly matched to draw actual comparison, and so they are just about useless.

Ultimately, aside from the few cars that are actually broken, the game is still fine. I drove the "undrivable" Ferrari F12 in totally stock form and was wary of it due to what everyone has said, and its simply not that bad of a car, even if it is a murderer. Totally stock on SH you can light the tires up well through third gear, but yeah, it's a 730hp 3300lbs RWD car... you better be sensitive with it. Other than being underbraked for its speed, which can be dealt with, the car was a challenging, albeit crazy, fun car to drive. No aids, no RS tires, no mods, just a fine thing to play with.

I still think, as whatever as this sounds, that most people complaining about the physics just need to put more time into slowing down and getting comfortable with the game. There are still broken cars, but they are the vast minority.

 

[tedaxe]

I don’t think my steering input is the issue at hand here. Like I’ve said before I’ve owned this car and the rear end is ready to kick out on demand with simple steering and throttle input. The car is very sharp.
Made another video with steering shown. For some reason with the animation, it doesn't move at 360 degrees like the PC vids shown. I verified that the tires are going full turn with my G27 input.





My whole argument centered around steering and throttle input to get the car sliding. AC is fundamentally flawed with this regard.

The whole argument started with the GR86 being able to maintain a slide in 4th gear as if this is flawed. So what makes it so different?

100+kph. Looks weird. I wouldn't discount the possibility of it nor will I say it's realistic. There's a potential to overload the engine and drivetrain though. The great thing about sims is you can test out a bunch of nonsense things that no one would waste their seat time with irl.

The valley goes past 4k. 4k still has usable torque to spin the car. The overall torque band is low anyways.

https://tuningpro.co/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Stock-BRZ-Torque-Dip-Dyno-Chart-1024x767.jpg

Being a well balanced car does not prevent it from being slippy.

You are turning way to much.
Cant you feel that you are plowing the **** out of that poor front tires?

Here is a YouTube video I found of that very stable Mazda rx8 losing traction as there seems to be some debate about that car. Having owned one it may be stable but you can have it step out on you without much effort if you don't drive properly.

Thats another perfect example of lift-off oversteer.
Not power oversteer.

 

[LSFDRX]

You are turning way to much.
Cant you feel that you are plowing the **** out of that poor front tires?

This is a perfect example if what I was getting at with my previous post.

What is that video of the FRS supposed to show other than the poor driving ability of the person making it? Why in hell would you push the car into understeer, then just keep steering into it and increasing throttle?! This goes against pretty much every bone in a drivers body, and once you're into understeer, nothing else matters. The tires are done giving traction, the chassis is dynamically unloaded, the rears are planted, and there is nothing more for the fronts to do except suffer. Also, this is AC, so what does this have to do with GT7 at all. Bear in mind that I don't care to compare the two, we only need to talk about the real world vs GT7. The flaws in every driving sim don't matter. They're all very different, provide different things, and are a waste of time to compare against each other in this discussion.

I suggest some testing:

Those with issues, point out a certain car, a track if you wish, and something you think it can do that it "shouldn't", or something it should to that it "can't". Then some of us with "less issues" can run these scenarios and post results. This way we can streamline all this completely baseless yammering about "I have this car and it's not like this" or "cars don't do that" or "I know what I'm doing" or "this shouldn't happen" instead of continuing to talk in circles that are half full of people I don't trust know what they're doing in a car.

Reply to this post with a car and a scenario, challenge, task.... whatever, and me, or any other person would like to (all are welcome to do the same) will do our best to replicate the scenario and suss out where the problems lie. I've got some free time, 4.5mil in game or so, and decent driving ability. Let's make some facts out of conjecture.

 

[HugoTwoWheels]

This is a perfect example if what I was getting at with my previous post.

What is that video of the FRS supposed to show other than the poor driving ability of the person making it? Why in hell would you push the car into understeer, then just keep steering into it and increasing throttle?! This goes against pretty much every bone in a drivers body, and once you're into understeer, nothing else matters. The tires are done giving traction, the chassis is dynamically unloaded, the rears are planted, and there is nothing more for the fronts to do except suffer. Also, this is AC, so what does this have to do with GT7 at all. Bear in mind that I don't care to compare the two, we only need to talk about the real world vs GT7. The flaws in every driving sim don't matter. They're all very different, provide different things, and are a waste of time to compare against each other in this discussion.

I suggest some testing:

Those with issues, point out a certain car, a track if you wish, and something you think it can do that it "shouldn't", or something it should to that it "can't". Then some of us with "less issues" can run these scenarios and post results. This way we can streamline all this completely baseless yammering about "I have this car and it's not like this" or "cars don't do that" or "I know what I'm doing" or "this shouldn't happen" instead of continuing to talk in circles that are half full of people I don't trust know what they're doing in a car.

Reply to this post with a car and a scenario, challenge, task.... whatever, and me, or any other person would like to (all are welcome to do the same) will do our best to replicate the scenario and suss out where the problems lie. I've got some free time, 4.5mil in game or so, and decent driving ability. Let's make some facts out of conjecture.

Whatever people post is likely fixed with less steering input through the wheel and more steering through throttle/brake - turn less and use the pedals more.

But it's a good suggestion and I look forward to videos. This thread has become better.

 

[dabz343]

will do our best to replicate the scenario and suss out where the problems lie. I've got some free time, 4.5mil in game or so, and decent driving ability. Let's make some facts out of conjecture.

What a guy! Thx!

 

[RedRockValley]

I still think, as whatever as this sounds, that most people complaining about the physics just need to put more time into slowing down and getting comfortable with the game. There are still broken cars, but they are the vast minority.

I feel it's a pride issue as well - some people don't want to accept that they find physics in a Gran Turismo game challenging so they're in denial.

 

[Johnnn]

Today I was around my old PC with AMS1 and I tried Camaro. I knew Camaro was always pretty hard. But when I tried it it was like GT7 completely! I felt at home immediately. At least AMS1 is broken too because I like that game.

Seriously, how much idea do you have of this matter?

Why the hell is any guess as to why something isn't programmed to be "better or more complex" pushed to the fact that this game runs on the PS4?

Please prove your assumption/supposition based on comprehensible numbers about the processor load for the physics calculations ectr. compared to the power required to calculate the graphic effects, almost all other calculations are "light".

Other sims with apparently much better calculations also seem to run without any problems on the PS4.

What is a huge difference is the processing power in the graphics area, so the PS4 will never be able to do 4k smoothly at 60 FPS with a similar level of detail as the PS5. The 1080p of the PS4 with 60FPS requires significantly less power, in addition there is a significantly reduced graphic quality (which is still great for PS4 standards).


On the topic itself.. it is remarkable how long, how often and how painfully this topic is shifted from one extreme to the other.

What has been going through my head for a long time is rather the following.
If Michelin is/was an official partner of PD in this game and was significantly involved in the development of the tire model in the game, at least one knowledgeable and experienced person at Michelin who either plays himself or has a child who plays would have noticed can/should that the current tire model has major weaknesses/faults. Or the error is not as big as some people think and is within a certain "tolerance range". I can't and won't assume anything in one direction or the other, but I'm thinking about how that can be. Especially since Michelin not only builds tires for children's bikes or similar, but also has a "quite useful" tire for the somewhat faster pace in its range here and there.

Just a guess, PS4 was first generation of extremely slow HW.