Gran Turismo 7 Physics

[Monkey Man]

Super GT used a controller in GTS right up 'til December 2018 or 19 and nobody's gonna say the dude isn't a clean driver.

 

[Yard_Sale]

I think Pd could please everyone if they had some sort of “full sim” mode for single player. Maybe even a dedicated “full sim” daily race.

….make it something you don’t have to do if you don’t want to. You could even make it available on only gr.3, gr.4, and maybe a few other select race/road cars to save on the coding.

Hell, they could add more “full sim” physics for specific cars on updates. I don’t think it’d be that hard.

I’ve said it before, I think PD would’ve been stupid not to take advantage of the PS5 horsepower and create a game that will capture as much of the sim market as possible. What that looks like is anyone’s guess. Better FFB could be enough. “Toggle-able” realism could do it too

Whatever the case…. I just better be able to play the entire game and online stuff on a VR headset! I can’t wait for psvr2!

 

[Pfei]

I think Pd could please everyone if they had some sort of “full sim” mode for single player. Maybe even a dedicated “full sim” daily race.

I understand your reasoning here, and in an ideal world it would be great to have separate modes for casual and "hardcore" players. In practice however, this would likely end up as two half-baked modes which don't satisfy anyone. Plus splitting the player base. See DiRT 4 for a recent example of how this strategy failed miserably.

There are some things in the physics engine that need tweaking, making GT more realistic and at the same time it would not put off casual players. GT's basics are solid. Improvements would not alienate anyone. However they will not (and, given their target audience, SHOULD NOT) implement deep simulation value elements such as a complex tire model or complex aero simulation. That WOULD turn GT much more sim and would end up being a frustration for a lot of people who have gotten used to jumping into daily races and FIA championships for some good fun without spending 40 hours a week testing setups. That's where I draw the line, personally. GTS has a successful online component because of the large playerbase, the setup restrictions in sport mode and the fact that anyone can be reasonably competitive at their DR level without banging their heads against the wall worrying about how their setup affects tire wear on full, medium and empty tanks of gas. If PD went that route they would destroy GT. That's what ACC and the "serious" sims exist for. Gran Turismo has a middle of the road niche. They exploit it well. And I hope they continue doing so. Better braking and traction control modeling would help as well as resolve the odd handling issues in FWD and MR cars. That's really all it needs in my opinion. Plus better FFB.

 

[Imari]

That's why the stigma exists. Personally I don't care whether people call it real or not, the playing experience was 100% a Gran Turismo game, and people's offline comments have no effect on the in game play.

I think the size had a lot to do with it as well. Polyphony had spent the last 15 years cultivating the idea that a Gran Turismo game is this epically scaled experience with the most cars and tracks of any game on the market. The last "small" mainline Gran Turismo had been GT3 in 2001. There were/are people playing GTS that weren't even born when GT3 came out, all they know is massive GT games.

By putting out GTS as a relatively tiny game, for most people under the age of 20-25 this was potentially the first time they'd seen a GT game so small. I think it's a fair response to think "wait, this is a full priced Gran Turismo game?"

I think Pd could please everyone if they had some sort of “full sim” mode for single player. Maybe even a dedicated “full sim” daily race.

….make it something you don’t have to do if you don’t want to. You could even make it available on only gr.3, gr.4, and maybe a few other select race/road cars to save on the coding.

They've tried it. GT5P had Standard and Professional physics, and GT5/6 had Skid Recovery Force. Apart from the problems of splitting playerbase, by having multiple physics systems you're implicitly admitting that one of them is less realistic in a game that prides itself on it's realism. It's one thing to have assists, everyone is familiar with those from real life. It's another thing to change the physics rules entirely, people either hate it because they can't drive the "real" physics or they hate it because the "noob" physics is too easy/has an advantage/encourages bad driving/has intimate relations with your mother.

It turns out it's one of those things where by attempting to please everyone you please no one. GT is far better off making a solid physics system that is realistic but simply lacks the sort of nuance that makes true simulators a struggle sometimes. It's like a really easy going referee or umpire in casual sports - you're still playing the same game by the same rules as he pros, but you're not going to get rules lawyered on every little misstep because the point is to have fun.

 

[Monkey Man]

Beautifully-stated as always, brother.

The increase in track-surface detail felt through controllers / wheels that I keep hoping for and banging on about would IMHO greatly contribute to that feeling of realism and not a single extra modelling component need be coded for it IMHO.

One parameter I'd be tempted to add would be a surface-detail slider in wheel / controller settings, something one might logically hope for anyway given the partnership with Fanatec.

 

[Samus]

The moment that GT goes full hardcore sim is the moment it burns off the majority potential users/players.

The "entry-level" physics are part of the ease of accessibility which one of the main reasons why the series has been successful. You really think all 9.5million users (estimate from Feb 2021) are all hardcore sim racing enthusiasts? Don't let the echo-chambers fool you into thinking it's a majority.

Once again, making the physics more realistic is not going to make the game less accessible. The opposite is true when it comes to fundamental issues like FWD cars and how they handle. Making those more realistic is absolutely going to make things better, given that the vast majority of people around the world only drive FWD cars.

 

[Lord Protector]

Oh boy. This is soo wrong on soo many levels and I simply cannot understand how you've come to these conclusions. Not all controller users are erratic and not all of them cause crashes. Do you honestly believe that all wheel users are clean drivers? I've raced against some pretty bad wheel users in my time and beaten them! I've been praised for my abilities on a controller despite the fact that I'm disabled, so what you're saying is totally false and laughable.

Especially when you consider there have been controller players in live GT events too.

 

[Phaceless_Ph]

Once again, making the physics more realistic is not going to make the game less accessible. The opposite is true when it comes to fundamental issues like FWD cars and how they handle. Making those more realistic is absolutely going to make things better, given that the vast majority of people around the world only drive FWD cars.

.

 

[ThePotatoKing]

By that (baseless sim-racing echochamber) logic, rFactor 2 will have also sold more than 5 million copies...

...oh wait, it hasn't.

Physics aren't the only reason rFactor2 and on that matter, every other high-level racing simulator (Asseto Corsa, Automobilista, Raceroom to name a few) has generally poor sales compared to the big AAA titles out there a.k.a. Forza, Gran Turismo and Need For Speed.

First of all, there is BARELY any kind of promotion and/or marketing from the part of the devs. Raceroom and rFactor have made some attempts via various racing series, DTM and WTCC for instance, but those are pretty niche to begin with.

Secondly, they don't make a good first impression to the casual gamer, and i would say this is where pad optimization comes in because in most of them, if not all, it is at the very least, terrible. Give someone a controller to play Raceroom and they are not going to touch that game again. Combine that with the lackluster graphics and the boring UI designs and it becomes obvious why most people would choose Gran Turismo over rFactor if you put them side by side.

 

[Dave A]

Secondly, they don't make a good first impression to the casual gamer, and i would say this is where pad optimization comes in because in most of them, if not all, it is at the very least, terrible. Give someone a controller to play Raceroom and they are not going to touch that game again. Combine that with the lackluster graphics and the boring UI designs and it becomes obvious why most people would choose Gran Turismo over rFactor if you put them side by side.

Pad optomisation is absolutely a big issue for a lot of these sims, they tend to play to their market and optomise for wheel users first and foremost. Sure, there are ways in some of these games to tweak settings and files to make pads or even keyboard and mouse control much more user friendly, but the average gamer isn't likely to know or be inclined to do all of that.

Another factor is scope of the games, a lot of these games are done on smaller budgets, with smaller teams and are smaller in scope. They can afford to throw their eggs into one basket as a result, whereas games like Gran Turismo and Forza have a much wider scope and therefore need to optomise for a more casual audience to ensure they want to buy their game.

 

[Yard_Sale]

I’m all for making games optimized for controllers. Even if that does give them aides. Once you get to a certain level (from an online racing point), there’s only so much you can do with a pad…. With the exception of a few select aliens. Which brings me to my next point. Pad drivers being erratic is 110% the rule. Sure, there are some really fast pad players out there, along with non-erratic pad players. But for every one of them, there’s at least 100 who aren’t. The proof is in the pudding. When I watch back a replay that I did on my ds4, I can instantly tell. My movements are not very smooth whatsoever. I’m always making finite adjustments. Does that mean ds4 players should be penalized and subject to lack of aides? Of course not!!! That would be mechanically slow of PD to not optimize GT7 for pad play while giving us ivory tower wheel users what we want .

 

[Dave A]

I’m all for making games optimized for controllers. Even if that does give them aides. Once you get to a certain level (from an online racing point), there’s only so much you can do with a pad…. With the exception of a few select aliens. Which brings me to my next point. Pad drivers being erratic is 110% the rule. Sure, there are some really fast pad players out there, along with non-erratic pad players. But for every one of them, there’s at least 100 who aren’t. The proof is in the pudding. When I watch back a replay that I did on my ds4, I can instantly tell. My movements are not very smooth whatsoever. I’m always making finite adjustments. Does that mean ds4 players should be penalized and subject to lack of aides? Of course not!!! That would be mechanically slow of PD to not optimize GT7 for pad play while giving us ivory tower wheel users what we want .

The proof is not in the pudding, you've failed to provide any proof what-so-ever, only an opinion framed as proof. Pad users make up the vast majority of players, to suggest 10 out of 11 of those drive erratically is just nonsense franklly. Either find proof or move on, just because you aren't smooth with a pad doesn't mean others aren't.

 

[Yard_Sale]

Duly noted, but still. Any lobby below A level is rife with pad players. They stick out like a slightly swollen thumb. Heck, I play with a pad probably a good 1/3 of the time (at a low A level albeit), and I can tell in my own driving. There’s no way anyone but the best can be as smooth with their thumbs on a small joystick, as someone with a wheel. It’s a leverage thing, plain and simple.

Conversely, I’m considerably smoother with my brake and throttle inputs on the controller triggers, simply because I have 100% more dexterity in my finger tips than I will ever have in my feet. We’re not primates buddy

 

[Dave A]

And I'd wager that's to do with the calibre of player and not the peripheral they're using. Plenty of my mates would be just as bad at GT Sport with a wheel as they would be with a pad, it isn't the peripheral. Perosnally I don't find it difficult at all to run smoothly with the pad. The steering isn't 1:1 it's filtered and non-linear, which makes it pretty easy to carry out smooth inputs.

 

[Mr P510]

All they need is a switch.
Full (Hardcore Sim Mode) or Legacy GT mode.

 

[Yard_Sale]

Sure. But I would estimate on the conservative end, that for every good pad player in mid-A and higher lobbies, there’s at least 75-100 wheel players. At least.

But then again, the VAST MAJORITY of Gran Turismo players DON’T play online, so it doesn’t matter how they choose to enjoy the game…. Just like it shouldn’t matter what peripheral someone uses in sport mode. Like I said earlier, I think PD should optimize the game for pad players. It’s a no-brainer

 

[HugoTwoWheels]

Off-topic, and I'll provoke people, but I can't resist:

Just played a race C in top split. This erratic bastard behind me was pushing all over the place, while everyone else was clean and predictable. He finished far behind me. Watched the replay - of course he's on a small joystick... He looked like he was trying to be clean, but the range of motion on that little thing is too small for him to race side by side in Grp. 1 cars.

At least try the gyro in the gamepad. It's great in comparison!

 

[Samus]

By that (baseless sim-racing echochamber) logic, rFactor 2 will have also sold more than 5 million copies...

...oh wait, it hasn't.

I've no idea how you've made that leap from what I said.

A game with more realistic physics could sell well, an example of one other game with realistic physics selling poorly is not conclusive evidence against that ever happening.

Also last I heard Assetto Corsa had sold over 10m.

 

[NAXEHT]

It’s obvious and has already been stated but let’s do it again, the reason most (supposedly) DS4 players are driving in an erratic and poor manner is because the majority of players are made up of drivers who are in the kinda poor - okay - not terrible spectrum. Majority uses DS4 because they’re not enthusiasts. Reason for poor driving is poor skill. Not relevant if they’re using a DS4 or a Fanatec.

Enthusiasts on the other hand tend to be quite good at the game and many (but absolutely not all) enthusiasts for a racing game are on a wheel.

/DS4 user

 

[ScottPuss20]

Physics aren't the only reason rFactor2 and on that matter, every other high-level racing simulator (Asseto Corsa, Automobilista, Raceroom to name a few) has generally poor sales compared to the big AAA titles out there a.k.a. Forza, Gran Turismo and Need For Speed.

First of all, there is BARELY any kind of promotion and/or marketing from the part of the devs. Raceroom and rFactor have made some attempts via various racing series, DTM and WTCC for instance, but those are pretty niche to begin with.

Secondly, they don't make a good first impression to the casual gamer, and i would say this is where pad optimization comes in because in most of them, if not all, it is at the very least, terrible. Give someone a controller to play Raceroom and they are not going to touch that game again. Combine that with the lackluster graphics and the boring UI designs and it becomes obvious why most people would choose Gran Turismo over rFactor if you put them side by side.

Driving simulators by their nature will not attract casuals in the same way that GT and Forza does. And they shouldn't have to because the sim racing community is extremely dedicated. However I got my start in GT so I still pay attention to it, despite the shortfalls in the physics department. I know that it won't be on the same level as Assetto Corsa but that doesn't matter if the game is fun to play.

 

[JDMKING13]

Quick question how many people actually have GTS AC and ACC and play them regularly?

 

[Dave A]

Quick question how many people actually have GTS AC and ACC and play them regularly?

I have all three, not sure what the relevance of the question is though.

 

[JDMKING13]

I have all three, not sure what the relevance of the question is though.

I was going to ask with similar cars and track how are your laps times compared to all three or even just Ac and GTS because those have more variety of cars.

 

[Dave A]

I was going to ask with similar cars and track how are your laps times compared to all three or even just Ac and GTS because those have more variety of cars.

Interesting idea, I can't say I've put any effort into using matching cars for the purpose of comparing lap times between them. But most of my AC content is mods, granted many are fantastic quality but they weren't created by Kunos.

When I'm in my groove I feel like I can probably lap faster in ACC, I find the cars more predictable and they don't catch me out unexpectedly as often as the Gr.3 cars GT Sport. But maybe that's more a case of consistency over outright speed.

 

[TS050]

Quick question how many people actually have GTS AC and ACC and play them regularly?

I play GTS occasionally and AC a little less. Comparing lap times, I’m usually a lot faster in GT compared to AC, though a lot of that is probably due to the controller settings being pretty poor

 

[Pfei]

I was going to ask with similar cars and track how are your laps times compared to all three or even just Ac and GTS because those have more variety of cars.

I think you will find this video interesting. David Perel doing real life vs ACC vs GTS vs iRacing.



Edit: I might add that David is (was?) a consultant to Kunos and is a fan of GTS as a whole although he has criticized the physics. He is not much of a fan of iRacing.

 

[Digity]

I think you will find this video interesting. David Perel doing real life vs ACC vs GTS vs iRacing.



Edit: I might add that David is (was?) a consultant to Kunos and is a fan of GTS as a whole although he has criticized the physics. He is not much of a fan of iRacing.

What's his beef with iRacing?

 

[Magog]

I think you will find this video interesting. David Perel doing real life vs ACC vs GTS vs iRacing.



Edit: I might add that David is (was?) a consultant to Kunos and is a fan of GTS as a whole although he has criticized the physics. He is not much of a fan of iRacing.

Cliffs?

 

[Pfei]

What's his beef with iRacing?

Doesn't like the tire model if I remember correctly.

 

[JDMKING13]

I think you will find this video interesting. David Perel doing real life vs ACC vs GTS vs iRacing.



Edit: I might add that David is (was?) a consultant to Kunos and is a fan of GTS as a whole although he has criticized the physics. He is not much of a fan of iRacing.

Thanks for the video my friend it was very interesting, off topic ACC sounds amazing I really hope GT7 can aim in that direction with sounds. Over the weekend I’m going to do some test and really focus on all three titles. I was gonna use SPA also for my track. Thanks again for the video.