Gran Turismo 7 Physics

[RedRockValley]

GT3 cars are so nice to drive now, I avoided most of the Circuit Experiences beforehand because it just didn’t feel right driving the higher downforce GT3-1 cars but now it’s amazing!

 

[Terronium-12]

I talked about this in a post a few days ago, but this is again an issue of lumping in how the tires grip at all different points in their traction curve under the single label of "grip". The aspect that was especially unrealistic about the grip pre-update was the tires behavior at and past the limit. They've fixed this in the update, but they've also added loads of grip before the limit, so now the limit is way higher than it should be.

Won't get too much of an argument out of me regarding this. There is a very unnatural tendency to understeer now. As I said yesterday...somewhere, it's like the front end is now loaded with ballast. Overall, I'm more satisfied with things now than I was prior to the update. I was able to easily gold the Fisherman's lap because the car actually catches onto the gravel now, as it should.

Don't get me wrong, gravel physics are by and large still absolutely terrible, but it isn't quite as bad as it was.

I saw screenshots on twitter earlier comparing LMP1 cars cornering speeds at the Porsche curves in different games and IRL, and in GT7 the LMP1 cars are cornering 40kph faster than iracing and almost 50kph faster than the world record lap IRL in an LMP1 car in the same corner. That's just absurd.

This is kind of where I shrug my shoulders. Not at you of course, but the prospect of the virtual cars taking a corner faster than its real-life counterpart. All things considered, this should be the case, realism be damned. Is that antithetical to my previous post here? Absolutely, but there's a bit of nuance here because in real life what stops a person from pushing to the absolute limit? Fear of fatal mistake.

Now, a race car driver can say they have no fear compared to the average person but I guarantee you their brain and instinctual reactions are to not die. A video game has no such limitation, so you're far more free and able to push at and beyond the limit without any real repercussion, other than crashing the virtual car or damaging the virtual engine. Restart the event and do it all over again until you the nail the corner the way you want, completely and utterly ignoring all real-world forces and devices that would absolutely prevent one from doing so.

With that said, don't think I'm missing the point of what you're saying. Having a racing sim be as close to the real-world as possible is the priority, but that comes with its own inherent caveats.

 

[Td04]

I tryed some gr Cars from circuit experience.
Some of them like 458 and 4c gr3,now, understeer a lot and have a nice lift off oversteer. Probably the understeer Is too strong.
Others like the m6 from nurbgring, still want to spin out,but in a more correct way: it understeer during turbolag then oversteer strong when Power come.

All the road cars i tested still need throttle control and can be spinned, but they are without a doubt better than before. There Is even more difference now,between Cars with the same drivetrain. Where before 1.13 cars just spin out all in the same way, now there is much difference between transition from understeer to oversteer from a car to another.

Overall the physics Is a lot better,for road car for sure.
Maybe some gr3-4, now,Is too much planted,but personally i don't mind much cause i prefer road cars

 

[Goshin2568]

This is kind of where I shrug my shoulders. Not at you of course, but the prospect of the virtual cars taking a corner faster than its real-life counterpart. All things considered, this should be the case, realism be damned. Is that antithetical to my previous post here? Absolutely, but there's a bit of nuance here because in real life what stops a person from pushing to the absolute limit? Fear of fatal mistake.

Now, a race car driver can say they have no fear compared to the average person but I guarantee you their brain and instinctual reactions are to not die. A video game has no such limitation, so you're far more free and able to push at and beyond the limit without any real repercussion, other than crashing the virtual car or damaging the virtual engine. Restart the event and do it all over again until you the nail the corner the way you want, completely and utterly ignoring all real-world forces and devices that would absolutely prevent one from doing so.

No I agree with you for sure, I think that's an aspect that isn't taken into consideration enough in these types of discussions. Very few people are driving in real life in the same way that they are in a sim, especially in track days and such where there isn't even a career or monetary benefit to pushing as hard as possible. I think that muddies the water whenever people try and compare to real life.


That being said, I think the advantage to specifically comparing an LMP1 at the Porsche curves is that it kind of minimizes that as much as possible. In a high speed corner in a high downforce car, there isn't as much room for fear to play a part because due to the downforce, cornering faster is actually the safer option. Still not apples to apples, but close enough for it to be somewhat relevant I think. 50-60+ kph difference is absolutely nuts, especially considering the 40+ kph difference to iracing which obviously doesn't carry the same caveat as irl does in this situation.

 

[sejtur]

People waiting GT to become a full fledged simulator may wait their whole life, PD has to take compromises to make the game enjoyable for everyone.

This is what I thought as well. It was just too good to be true. Well, it was a good run, almost 2 months with the game. I'll miss it a lot.

 

[s0cks]

I'm happy with the changes but I've only driven some road cars.

I am afraid they may have broken some of the race cars in the other direction.

Lol wtf? That looks like a whole different game now haha. I love how PD just straight up make huge changes and say basically nothing about it.

 

[Wedge2022]

Seems like they did exactly what I was afraid of and went way too far with this

Cars were a joy to drive the way they were honestly.... I felt like I was in an episode of the old Top Gear .....The Audi R8 might have been the only car I tried that I would have dialed back a bit but even then just adapting my driving style (keep throttle on, trust the downforce and short shifting made that car incredibly fun) ...

....cant play again till Saturday....really hoping I still enjoy the game..

 

[PirovacBoy]

Ok now I’m really shocked.
In a very Bad way which is making me very sad.
What happened?!
I just realized how hard PD used their Hammer and swung the Pendulum in the other direction.
I just realized how unbelievably hard they changed the whole Driving Experience.
And I must confess I don’t like it anymore.
No way.
What happened in detail that made me change my mind completely 180degrees to my prior Statements?!
This is what happened.
I just rewatched some of my Replays which I do for enjoyment.
As I watched the Cockpit View I noticed something is very different.
I turned on the HUD to watch my inputs.
Ok.
I looked at my lap times.
Ok.
I remembered the FEELING and SENSATION i felt in the Wheel while watching.
Boom. And here it clicked.
This is a completely different Game now.
I immediately went to World Circuits, chose the same WTC600 Event.
I had to confirm my fears.
And they got confirmed.
The Driving feels so completely dull now in comparison to the previous driving Model.
Absolutely 0 Finesse required anymore.
The whole Driving/ForceFeedback Dynamics have been dulled down so hard, it’s insane.
My lap times were 4!!! Seconds slower per lap compared to what they are now.
I mean how on Earth, no way.
That’s impossible.
I tried other Events too from which I had saved Replays.
It was the same.
For example the '69 Corvette was a joy to drive. Now it’s just a grip monster.
The Cars now mostly all feel the same.
Their unique Characteristics have been almost completely erased.
Or at least I can’t feel them anymore.

I think they have messed up too many things at once.
1. The RWD Algorithm or whatever they called it.
2. The Braking improvement.
3. The FFB Adjustments for CSL DD.
Everything combined is just way too much.
I mean we can get used to everything that’s Human Nature, but when I think about what we had , and what we have now… it’s making me sad.

 

[Techlet]

I think people are starting to catch on to how bad the FFB had always been now that they're not entirely focused on simply keeping the cars pointed the right way on the track.

I'm 99% convinced if PD were to revert the changes tomorrow, the same people will complain that they ruined the game and made the FFB even duller.

Had the game not been online only, it'd be very interesting to do some kind of blind A/B test for the handling before and after the patch.

 

[Wedge2022]

Worst part for me was the Physics were the only thing about the game I loved...

If its really that bad I can just go back to iRacing, AC, beamNG etc on PC ...but GT7 was not a word of a lie more fun for me lately ....I'm by no means saying its better than PC racing but better and more fun are not the same.....I just loved how lively the cars were, oh well :/

 

[Techlet]

Maybe the patch installed a completely different game on my PS5 but the cars are still very lively when you hammer the throttle. The difference now is I'm not giving myself carpal tunnel with the controller triggers trying to tip toe around every corner like I'm driving on the moon.

 

[MonoTonouS]

People who say the physics pre-patch was better are morons. Like, let me just cover your rear tires in antifreeze and oil while you go out to work and add an antifreeze hose that splashes your rear tires so they stay nice and lubed, It's gonna make your car SOOOO much better, trust me, the rear is going to break loose going up the freeway onramp and just lock in that position. Trust me lad, mucho Bueno! /S

But seriously, the physics pre-patch was dog****, the s2o00 handled worse than a stock 69' Camaro, the RX-8 would lose its tail at 40 mph.. Some cars were just unrecoverable, they would lock up and stay locked up. Understeer wasn't even a thing in this game. GT7 was the opposite of GT4, another game with ass physics.

If you enjoyed wrangling a broken car, i'm sorry you no longer have that experience, .. oh wait yes you do, run a lower grade tire, maybe comfort hard.

 

[Techlet]

Just finished the 1hr Spa race. Can confirm race cars are still plenty snappy on worn Wets.

 

[Michael88]

Maybe the patch installed a completely different game on my PS5 but the cars are still very lively when you hammer the throttle. The difference now is I'm not giving myself carpal tunnel with the controller triggers trying to tip toe around every corner like I'm driving on the moon.

I had severe issues with several cars' rear ends becoming weightless and just floating away like a hovercraft in long corners, even at 50% throttle and max rear end down force and very stiff suspension settings, that is mostly gone now. You can still very easily snap-oversteer cars with too much throttle and recovering them with counter steering has not become any easier.

But now, for the first time ever I could do 3 laps on the nordschleife, accident-free with my fully modded 711 PP Camaro Z28. Before the patch I always already crashed at Hatzenbach, the car got simply uncontrollable in that corner, even with my best settings. Now I can actually use it for races.

 

[HugoTwoWheels]

People who say the physics pre-patch was better are morons. Like, let me just cover your rear tires in antifreeze and oil while you go out to work and add an antifreeze hose that splashes your rear tires so they stay nice and lubed, It's gonna make your car SOOOO much better, trust me, the rear is going to break loose going up the freeway onramp and just lock in that position. Trust me lad, mucho Bueno! /S

But seriously, the physics pre-patch was dog****, the s2o00 handled worse than a stock 69' Camaro, the RX-8 would lose its tail at 40 mph.. Some cars were just unrecoverable, they would lock up and stay locked up. Understeer wasn't even a thing in this game. GT7 was the opposite of GT4, another game with ass physics.

If you enjoyed wrangling a broken car, i'm sorry you no longer have that experience, .. oh wait yes you do, run a lower grade tire, maybe comfort hard.

Yes, but for many that was fun. I'm one of them. However, I'm having even more fun now.

 

[Tenacious D]

Very few people are driving in real life in the same way that they are in a sim

I would be one.

I'm not sure how I feel in regard to better / worse physics and tire grip, but the FFB is definitely dulled. I tried upping the sensitivity a bit, and nothing changed. However, the increased grip FINALLY allowed me to win the Tokyo 600 wet event with the RE Amemiya RX-7 by a second and change. I have a feeling I should work on that S License and Circuit Experiences while the iron is still grippy.

Dialing the race cars back a bit, I could live with that, though I'd like to try an LMP and see if I'm faster than real world lap times. Or better yet, the Nordschleife in one of the registered cars on sports softs.

On assists, some people are slower on assists, some. I used them in Tokyo pre-patch because it was just too much of a pain to keep the RX-7 from being spun out or penalty killed, trying to be fast and careful at the same time. The wet tracks in GT7 are often just too much of a crap shoot. The Red Bull Jr supposedly has all kinds of downforce and good grip, but evidently not on a wet track. The bots knock it around like a cat with a toy, and touch a wall wrong, it's race ending. I love the thing on Tokyo - as long as the nose is pointed down the road the right way...

 

[chengman]

Mate, I played for several hours yesterday night with the AMG GT3 (very much improved regarding its performances with the new BoP), the car was tricky for a Mercedes on corner exits, even on 3rd gear before the update. It's flat throttle now like it was on GTS and the car doesn't move. Don't tell me you need TC, it's a pure lie.
It has way too much grip on the rear end for a GT3 car. The V8 has a lot of torque, no way you can go that hard on the throttle IRL without TC. Sorry but it's back to GTS physics and I have a lot of miles on this game so I can tell I have a reference.

It wasn't that far off actually, I just think they added too much grip on the rear and forgot about the feelings in the wheel.

See this video of AMG GT3 on the ring. The car is perfectly flat and planted. He's not getting oversteer in 6th gear while going 60kph.

 

[hornet_burnout]

The new update said some tweaks had been made to handling, rwd control and weight transfer and I decided to give it a try.

It's so much better now... Yes the grip model is still exaggeratedly low but the handling is there!

Now you still have to break a sweat but you can get the results without the odd sudden uncontrollable snap.

I redid a race I had done before, a Ferrari challenge in Barcelona and it took me 4 or 5 attempts to win, but I was getting better every time, and riding the edge in a rewarding and evolving manner. Never once I felt like giving up the whole game like previously...

Good stuff!

 

[Theufcveteran]

So many comments implying tires have changed for the better…

If you feel improved improved traction on a specific tire compound, then it’s because of the changes to the “geometry calculations algorithm for the suspension”. Tires weren’t mentioned in the patch notes, and grip is the same as before.

Which they followed with, “This has resulted in increased traction for rear-wheel drive cars”. So while the tyres are the same, for all intents and purposes, there’s more rear-end grip.

EDIT: Unless you mean compound specific grip and not whether overall grip has changed?

 

[FloridaFanGT]

A lot of people need to stop having the mindset of more difficulty = more realism. That’s not how it works. Cars should be fairly easy to handle up to a certain point. If real life cars handled like the pre-patch cars, there’d be a lot more deaths on the road and on the track. The changes are a positive step, but I’d like to see more improvement as time goes on. More intuitive = more realistic is what PD and all other devs should be going for. Also, I don’t care about what the World Tour guys think. I want opinions from professional drivers & engineers about how cars should handle.

 

[JDMKING13]

A lot of people need to stop having the mindset of more difficulty = more realism. That’s not how it works. Cars should be fairly easy to handle up to a certain point. If real life cars handled like the pre-patch cars, there’d be a lot more deaths on the road and on the track. The changes are a positive step, but I’d like to see more improvement as time goes on. More intuitive = more realistic is what PD and all other devs should be going for. Also, I don’t care about what the World Tour guys think. I want opinions from professional drivers & engineers about how cars should handle.

I feel what your saying, but also understand a lot of people have never pushed and prob wouldn’t push a car as they would in any sim… so that where I like to take the real track guys advice… the regular people including myself 9/10 have never pushed a car with electronic aids off at the speeds you play in GT/ any sim. So yeah hard doesn’t always equal realistic but being able to control a car easy and feeling like you shouldn’t have to use TC/ASM/CSA to stroke one’s ego is also not realistic.

Again I am enjoying the production cars after this update I haven’t touched race cars yet. We have our GT7 GT3 cup Michelin series resuming next week so I am eager to feel how my GT3cup Porsche feels after update.

 

[HyperSpeeder]

Overall better. In RWD cars you can use power to help rotate the car on corner exit more effectively now.

 

[Techlet]

I feel what your saying, but also understand a lot of people have never pushed and prob wouldn’t push a car as they would in any sim… so that where I like to take the real track guys advice… the regular people including myself 9/10 have never pushed a car with electronic aids off at the speeds you play in GT/ any sim. So yeah hard doesn’t always equal realistic but being able to control a car easy and feeling like you shouldn’t have to use TC/ASM/CSA to stroke one’s ego is also not realistic.

Once again, the assists in the game are not the same as the assists that come with the cars. The S Barker Tourer sure didn't come with adjustable TCS and ABS and self driving tech in 1929.

The cars are most likely "simulated" with whatever assists and gizmos they had from the factory. The game then adds whatever assists you select from the menus on top.

 

[Jeff Goji]

Day two trying out the new physics, and I'm still impressed.
As of update 1.13, I think it's pretty much the perfect physics simulator from Gran Turismo so far... Which also upsets me a little bit, because why couldn't we have had this from the beginning? .... Ah well, anyway...
One of the side effects of the rear suspension tweak adding rear grip is you may run out of front grip first which results in increased understeer at the limit, especially when on the gas and trying to corner.
You still have to be careful on your throttle application or you risk under-steering off the track where before you would exit backwards and not see the tree that gets you.
It's not a bad tweak, and actually mimics real-life manufacturer car setup almost perfectly.
You also have to be more mindful of your line and realize if you're going to push 10/10ths on a corner and work the tires at and just over the limit you need to get it perfect or you're going off.

Only downside for me is that I'll have to tweak a number of my tunes to compensate for the added rear grip, which I'm looking forward to doing, especially with the Miatas and BMWs both of which I race in real life and I want to see how the setups in the game compare to our autocross and track cars.

 

[JDMKING13]

Once again, the assists in the game are not the same as the assists that come with the cars. The S Barker Tourer sure didn't come with adjustable TCS and ABS and self driving tech in 1929.

The cars are most likely "simulated" with whatever assists and gizmos they had from the factory. The game then adds whatever assists you select from the menus on top.

Explain to me how do you know the game comes with assist build in already then gives us another option for more assist? My friend I drive the cars as they are intended to be… The Supra I’m testing didn’t come with Stability control(ASM) doesn’t have advanced braking system from what you would get in your modern Ferrari even though it does come with ABS.. You would only get to use (Abs weak) the traction control system wasn’t advance as you get in your modern super cars so outta 5 you could only use 3 if you wanted to use traction control with the car in my league..

Again the TCS 1-5 is there to give the user some freedom to match it up to their driving skills… some people don’t need tcs while other might need a little and other might need a lot.. I like the 1-5 option because it gives me a broader option to try to match up TCS system for different cars for my league.. A 458 in my league is going to have different TCS options(4) vs a Supra which had a basic TC system and only gets (2)option TCS 3 or TCS 0 when you turn it off.

 

[Techlet]

Because in game driving assists are universal settings and not applied per car and they behave exactly the same for every car. They are part of the gameplay system, like the braking indicators, driving lines, and audio and brightness settings.

They are obviously not simulated as real life electronic assists.

More to the point, turning on driving assists have no affect on a car's PP. The 0-60 and stability numbers don't change at all when in practise there's an obvious difference on track (most high level players recommend turning TCS on for standing starts in GT7, rare as they are). Therefore, my conclusion is that in game assists only affect your controller input, not the actual cars themselves.

What I would actually like to see is for PD to integrate driving assists as tuning parts where you can install different modules and tune the assists per car and have them actually be part of the physics simulation.

 

[Cpt Zheng]

I’m not a fast driver by any means and I only really drive road cars, but for me the update is a significant improvement. As others have said you still absolutely can’t just floor it in a powerful RWD car while unbalanced, you’ll still spin it, but equally you no longer have these deadly, unrecoverable snaps just from gently squeezing. If an FR road car IRL behaved like some of the pre-patch models, they’d be recalled.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

The cars are most likely "simulated" with whatever assists and gizmos they had from the factory. The game then adds whatever assists you select from the menus on top.

This has long been my assumption as well. I was actually going to make the same point as you too, instead in regards to the GT3 cars, where I feel TC 0 is a representation of the ‘optimal’ TCS settings of the real life counterpart and the in-game TCS settings are just further gameplay assists on top of that.

 

[JDMKING13]

Because in game driving assists are universal settings and not applied per car and they behave exactly the same for every car. They are part of the gameplay system, like the braking indicators, driving lines, and audio and brightness settings.

They are obviously not simulated as real life electronic assists.

I understand what your saying… this is why I like the 1-5 tcs gives the user the ability to match up the the TCS system to your liking. Let me give you an example how we use TCS in my league.. I’ll use three cars 911 930 turbo Toyota Supra RZ 458 Italia

911 930 Turbo- Did not have a traction control system, traction control option would be 0

Toyota Supra RZ- Came equipped with TCS but was your basic TCS system, traction control option would be 3

458 Italia- Has a Manettino system which gives the driver a vary of different traction option which are…

- Low Grip mode used for rain snow environment TCS 4

-Sports mode give the driver a little bit more freedom with the traction control system but still will intervene under excessive wheel spin suited for everyday driving TCS 2

- Race mode Used for track driving with the least amount of intervention under hard driving TCS 1

- CT Off Traction control is completely off suited for only highly skilled drivers.

 

[RedRockValley]

Been driving the 911 Carrera RS Club Sport, modified to 600pp on Sports Hards and these cars will still definitely try to kill you if they want to. It's just a bit more progressive than it used to be.

As it was with the pre-patch physics, some cars are going to feel better than others.