Gran Turismo 7 Physics

[dabz343]

1.13 improved, or went too far? If I step back and see it for what GT7 is, then I think it's an improvement...because it seems novice players find the update to lower the pain, while experienced players still find the physics to provide the nuances at the limit to be interesting.

I'm going to test out my list of cars/events in the coming days to see specifically where and what has been altered. But I trust this community as a whole, and they seem to be reacting positively so PD should exhale...but they still need to be on their toes...for things like FFB and BoP...and the lobbies!

 

[Tenacious D]

Well, just had a long session with the 911 GT3 RS '16 on the Green Beastie with only ABS weak and sport mediums, since that seems to be the consensus for HP tires. It was rough. Anyone who says the Porsches have been tamed, any of them but the race cars, is a big fat fibber. Out of several tries and a couple dozen do overs, I had not one clean lap. Zero. I had to quit a few minutes ago because the frustration and nerves were making me ill, and I was making bad mistakes.

The record for that Porsche is 6:56.000. Leaving the track twice for 20 - 30 meters, I could only manage a 7:40.907. Ay caramba...

 

[Techlet]

Easy to play but hard to master is how a good simulation game should be.

We don't need to gatekeep "casual" players behind needlessly difficult controls from the get go.

 

[RedRockValley]

Well, just had a long session with the 911 GT3 RS '16 on the Green Beastie with only ABS weak. It was rough. Anyone who says the Porsches have been tamed, any of them but the race cars, is a big fat fibber. Out of several tries and a couple dozen do overs, I had not one clean lap. Zero. I had to quit a few minutes ago because the frustration and nerves were making me ill, and I was making bad mistakes.

The record for that Porsche is 6:56.000. Leaving the track twice for 20 - 30 meters, I could only manage a 7:40.907. Ay caramba...

Imagine if they ever add the OG RUF Yellowbird. Tears will be wept, controllers will be broken...

 

[JDMKING13]

I forgot who I was talking to about the Porsches earlier in this thread but the rear traction is even better coming out of turn which they were saying pre update the Porsche need more rear traction coming out of turns. I run a lot of the earlier Porsches with CH and the 996 with mediums and before patch they were lacking on my time board, but have significantly jumped up the board. As I keep playing I feel The physics are balanced in which you feel you have better control of the car but mistakes will still lead you in the walls!

 

[RedRockValley]

As I keep playing I feel The physics are balanced in which you feel you have better control of the car but mistakes will still lead you in the walls!

Which I think is much better, IMO.

Like, a GR86 should be easy to drive fast, but when you start taking it to the limit, like trying-to-set-the-world-record-on-the-Nurburgring limit, mistakes should be fatal.

 

[SergioRZ]

huummmm been playing a while... it's really strange... throttle input to steer RWD cars is almost dead, it ceased to exist... this is very wrong. Sure, snap oversteer all the time was wrong too, but this isn't ok.

 

[BigSarj]

huummmm been playing a while... it's really strange... throttle input to steer RWD cars is almost dead, it ceased to exist... this is very wrong. Sure, snap oversteer all the time was wrong too, but this isn't ok.

I only had time to do a couple of CE today and the Lamborghini at Catalunya, while still a handful, was able to be rotated with the throttle no problem. Maybe it just depends on the diff setup.

 

[JDMKING13]

Which I think is much better, IMO.

Like, a GR86 should be easy to drive fast, but when you start taking it to the limit, like trying-to-set-the-world-record-on-the-Nurburgring limit, mistakes should be fatal.

Yea I’m going to test the BRZ and the GR86 in a few min both come equipped with Michelin pilot Sport 4 (Comfort Softs) so it should be interesting… even though they are pretty much the same they are set up differently so I want to see if that’s the case for GT7!

 

[CarreraGT]

Easy to play but hard to master is how a good simulation game should be.

We don't need to gatekeep "casual" players behind needlessly difficult controls from the get go.

This. As Kaz (and many others) have said before, driving a car is not hard. Driving a car on the limit is.

I think the patch has done a good job of toning down some of the on-limit behaviour without taking away the challenge of driving right on the edge.

Hats off PD for listening and responding.

 

[ScottPuss20]

I've only driven the BMW M3 E46 and Ferrari F8 since the update but it's enough for me to gauge the improvements that have been made. As I mentioned earlier, the biggest problem with rear drive cars is how quickly they break traction and I feel like this issue has been rectified. I went over a second quicker around Willow Springs in the BMW because it felt more planted with a more progressive grip loss, allowing me to get a better feel for the car and gain more confidence in doing so. This was particularly noticeable through turn 7, 8 and 9 where I could get onto the throttle sooner and stay in it longer before the car broke lose, and when it did, it was easier to control. The F8 is still a challenge but it's less demanding than before with traction control turned off. Not perfect but a lot more enjoyable and rewarding.

 

[SergioRZ]

I only had time to do a couple of CE today and the Lamborghini at Catalunya, while still a handful, was able to be rotated with the throttle no problem. Maybe it just depends on the diff setup.

Out of curiosity I went and tried the first CE at Catalunya, and I'm totally surprised by how different it is from what you described... the Lambo is DEAD, just massive understeer when I press it... I mean, something is really very strange if we're getting such a different (quite opposite indeed) experience driving the same car/track. What gives?


This just sucked out all the joy I had playing this game... and trust me, I'm a bad driver, but I like to feel the car moving, this update removed all feeling

How can I'm getting this reaction and you're still reacting to that Lambo as "a handful"? At this point I'm not even sure we're all playing the same game version or some weird thing is going on...

 

[Ashthebash]

Ok now I’m really shocked.
In a very Bad way which is making me very sad.
What happened?!
I just realized how hard PD used their Hammer and swung the Pendulum in the other direction.
I just realized how unbelievably hard they changed the whole Driving Experience.
And I must confess I don’t like it anymore.
No way.
What happened in detail that made me change my mind completely 180degrees to my prior Statements?!
This is what happened.
I just rewatched some of my Replays which I do for enjoyment.
As I watched the Cockpit View I noticed something is very different.
I turned on the HUD to watch my inputs.
Ok.
I looked at my lap times.
Ok.
I remembered the FEELING and SENSATION i felt in the Wheel while watching.
Boom. And here it clicked.
This is a completely different Game now.
I immediately went to World Circuits, chose the same WTC600 Event.
I had to confirm my fears.
And they got confirmed.
The Driving feels so completely dull now in comparison to the previous driving Model.
Absolutely 0 Finesse required anymore.
The whole Driving/ForceFeedback Dynamics have been dulled down so hard, it’s insane.
My lap times were 4!!! Seconds slower per lap compared to what they are now.
I mean how on Earth, no way.
That’s impossible.
I tried other Events too from which I had saved Replays.
It was the same.
For example the '69 Corvette was a joy to drive. Now it’s just a grip monster.
The Cars now mostly all feel the same.
Their unique Characteristics have been almost completely erased.
Or at least I can’t feel them anymore.

I think they have messed up too many things at once.
1. The RWD Algorithm or whatever they called it.
2. The Braking improvement.
3. The FFB Adjustments for CSL DD.
Everything combined is just way too much.
I mean we can get used to everything that’s Human Nature, but when I think about what we had , and what we have now… it’s making me sad.

I think you've nailed a lot of how I feel with this. Where you needed finesse before, now you can go in with a sledgehammer. When I drove that Jag at DTS again in CE I remembered the very first time I attempted it on GT7, how loose the Jag's rear end was through T1-T2 as I crashed(!) and how patient you had to be for the car to be settled before getting on the throttle. Took a few laps but got used to it and ended up doing a decent time. Now, just mash the throttle, nice and early too, don't worry about the balance of the car, it'll all be fine! It's all become too dull, the characteristics of cars have been killed and please don't jump in that 458 GT3 that you loved, it's unrecognisable.

If they wanted to tweak rear grip they should have tweaked it, not ripped it up and gone to maximum glue mode. If people needed this much rear grip to control cars, that's what the driver aids are for, surely?

 

[BigSarj]

Out of curiosity I went and tried the first CE at Catalunya, and I'm totally surprised by how different it is from what you described... the Lambo is DEAD, just massive understeer when I press it... I mean, something is really very strange if we're getting such a different (quite opposite indeed) experience driving the same car/track. What gives?


This just sucked out all the joy I had playing this game... and trust me, I'm a bad driver, but I like to feel the car moving, this update removed all feeling

How can I'm getting this reaction and you're still reacting to that Lambo as "a handful"? At this point I'm not even sure we're all playing the same game version or some weird thing is going on...

Oh no, I do get understeer a lot. The middle sector was really difficult for me due to understeer but I was still able to use the throttle at lower speeds to rotate. What I meant by handful was that. Poor wording by me.

 

[Goshin2568]

@Tenacious D

Is is noticeably easier with default ABS or about the same? I've never played much with ABS weak but I remember reading posts on here talking about the ABS in GT having some sort of built in stability control, which is why it's always faster unlike some games where you can be just as fast or faster without it. I'd be curious to hear your experience.

 

[Techlet]

I think you've nailed a lot of how I feel with this. Where you needed finesse before, now you can go in with a sledgehammer. When I drove that Jag at DTS again in CE I remembered the very first time I attempted it on GT7, how loose the Jag's rear end was through T1-T2 as I crashed(!) and how patient you had to be for the car to be settled before getting on the throttle. Took a few laps but got used to it and ended up doing a decent time. Now, just mash the throttle, nice and early too, don't worry about the balance of the car, it'll all be fine! It's all become too dull, the characteristics of cars have been killed and please don't jump in that 458 GT3 that you loved, it's unrecognisable.

If they wanted to tweak rear grip they should have tweaked it, not ripped it up and gone to maximum glue mode. If people needed this much rear grip to control cars, that's what the driver aids are for, surely?

Maybe you're just used to underdriving the car?

 

[Tenacious D]

I like to feel the car moving, this update removed all feeling

the characteristics of cars have been killed

@JDMKING13, this is what I was talking about. Humans are strange creatures.

Is is noticeably easier with default ABS or about the same?

I was trying to judge that myself today, and since I have the Fanatec DD Pro now with a long throw brake pedal, I turned ABS off for a while, but I was still squealing tires in firm braking so I put it back on weak. I haven't tried race cars or my race tuned cars. There might possibly be some more simmy feel without ABS, but on the somewhat wobbly stock suspensions of sports cars I can't feel any real difference.

One more quick edit to say that there's no way in Hades I'm taking anything to the Nordschleife but highly tuned cars or racers. God in Heaven, what an evening...

 

[JDMKING13]

@JDMKING13, this is what I was talking about. Humans are strange creatures.


I was trying to judge that myself today, and since I have the Fanatec DD Pro now with a long throw brake pedal, I turned ABS off for a while, but I was still squealing tires in firm braking so I put it back on weak. I haven't tried race cars or my race tuned cars. There might possibly be some more simmy feel without ABS, but on the somewhat wobbly stock suspensions of sports cars I can't feel any real difference.

One more quick edit to say that there's no way in Hades I'm taking anything to the Nordschleife but highly tuned cars or racers. God in Heaven, what an evening...

Yea what they are feeling I was feeling at first, but I think I was under driving the car… once you understand the physics a lil bit yes the cars have more grip, but keeping it real the grip feels more natural, this doesn’t mean the cars still can get out wack.. I’m testing BRZ and GR86 around Toykyo keeping the car in one lane but pushing it, and during one of the S turns swung the car a little to hard and almost lost the car it reminded me of the pre physics sensation I got when pushing the car hard! Again I’m using Comfort Softs.. the game gives them Sports hard which in my opinion is too grippy in stock form for this update.

As for ABS weak and Default in my opinion it’s a big difference especially if you have damage and tire wear on at least 2x Also braking technique comes into play a lot more.. example with the Supra Rz with ABS weak I feel like I have to match rev to get the best outta the car vs with default the car is much stable when going into turns hot or with bad technique.. Don’t get me wrong I allow ABD default in league play but only with cars with modern advance braking system/and some race cars.

 

[RedRockValley]

For me I use no ABS with pre-90s cars, weak ABS with 90s-2000s road cars/race cars and then default ABS with 2010s road cars and race/Vision cars.

 

[ScottPuss20]

I think you've nailed a lot of how I feel with this. Where you needed finesse before, now you can go in with a sledgehammer.

No you can't. Some cars like the F8 will still want to kill you if you aren't careful. Finesse is still a requirement if you want to extract the best lap time.

 

[Jeff Goji]

Maybe you're just used to underdriving the car?

Very possible. I was pushing in higher speed corners where I could but had to under-drive severely overall to keep the rear in check in medium and low-speed corners with most cars, and I don't have to drive as cautiously in real life.
Also it's natural to underdrive when things change. It takes me a few events in real life autocross or track before I can get comfortable with the car and drive it 100% be it mine or someone else's car.

This is also a segue into a larger issue I have with topics like this (so sorry ahead of time):
Prior to the 1.13 release a good friend of mine was praising the physics in GT7 because they matched his experiences in other driving games (Assetto Corsa, AC3, Formula 1, etc etc etc) while running full-assist on his wheel setup and insisted that the pre-1.13 physics were the most realistic ever despite the fact that he had never logged a single autocross or track second in his life and has never driven or learned to drive a car to the absolute limit in any real life medium.
And I am still working to get him to the autocross to co-drive with me. Hopefully one of our weekends coincides and we can get together and have some fun running around cones.

Now the physics have changed to a more realistic balance (as I perceive them based on my experience in real cars at and over the limit) and not as video game oriented setup and he is bitching beyond belief on it even though I have explained ad nauseum how to drive around the latest changes... Which shouldn't be a stretch for goodness sake if you loved the previous model, you should be WAY faster now if you are a driver who can actually adapt to changes and go faster.

But at the end of the day, I think debates like this should be fun and friendly. We're all just playing a video game and it is not a cock measuring contest in speed for those of us who race in real life.
It's just fun, meant to be fun, and we should enjoy it at face value and love that we have something that fits our driving styles to race against each other and enjoy.
And all that said, let the debate yet again commence!

 

[JDMKING13]

For me I use no ABS with pre-90s cars, weak ABS with 90s-2000s road cars/race cars and then default ABS with 2010s road cars and race/Vision cars.

I definitely like what you do and agree with it.. For Even some supers cars like a 458 the driver in my league is allowed to select which driving mode which ABS default or weak could be use for example..

In Low Grip mode, Sports mode, the braking is set to default mode.

race mode the braking is set to ABS weak… I’ve done research on the 458 forums and the people who own them and track them explain once you go into race mode the car transform and you can feel how the assist are not there to save you.

 

[Tenacious D]

I know the physics and tire model - and FFB now - aren't "there" yet, but I can't believe people saying that PD sucked all the life out of the cars. Take a high performance car like a Porsche to the Ring, no assists but maybe ABS weak, and tell me how boring it is. If you can't have fun with this game right now, take a hiatus and go race in AC, ACC, Raceroom or some other sim till we have another update.

 

[Ashthebash]

Maybe you're just used to underdriving the car?

Been in quite a few EMEA top split FIA Manufacturers races, I don't think underdriving is a problem I tend to have

No you can't. Some cars like the F8 will still want to kill you if you aren't careful. Finesse is still a requirement if you want to extract the best lap time.

To be fair I'm talking mainly about Gr.3 cars that I've tested. And where you needed to be a little cautious on the throttle of something like the Jag, now, off you go, just hammer it, it'll be fine. And the Ferrari that really needed a light touch, yeah, a planted boat of a car now. Don't even know what the F8 is! Let alone driven it pre-patch to compare it to post-patch

 

[Jeff Goji]

Been in quite a few EMEA top split FIA Manufacturers races, I don't think underdriving is a problem I tend to have


To be fair I'm talking mainly about Gr.3 cars that I've tested. And where you needed to be a little cautious on the throttle of something like the Jag, now, off you go, just hammer it, it'll be fine. And the Ferrari that really needed a light touch, yeah, a planted boat of a car now. Don't even know what the F8 is! Let alone driven it pre-patch to compare it to post-patch

Excellent!
You're already a skilled driver and adaptable.
You have identified the problem in the handling, you know how to address it, and it's a boat you are dealing with now.
You should be able to drive flat-out and be faster than everyone else!

 

[Techlet]

Been in quite a few EMEA top split FIA Manufacturers races, I don't think underdriving is a problem I tend to have


To be fair I'm talking mainly about Gr.3 cars that I've tested. And where you needed to be a little cautious on the throttle of something like the Jag, now, off you go, just hammer it, it'll be fine. And the Ferrari that really needed a light touch, yeah, a planted boat of a car now. Don't even know what the F8 is! Let alone driven it pre-patch to compare it to post-patch

That's great. Now you can be even faster with the new physics.

 

[Jeff Goji]

That's great. Now you can be even faster with the new physics.

I guess great minds think alike.

 

[SergioRZ]

I'm still working through this update, testing many of my cars (that were all very fine tuned)... I'm understanding the new model a little better in terms of the way I have to attack corners to get the best out of it (basically I have to trust it more diving into the apex earlier).

What I've come to realize is that most of my FR/MR cars were tuned as "killer cars", that is, I was always trying to tame them, to make them easier to control... that is totally pointless and counterproductive with this new physics, I tried "untaming" some of them (that is making the rear end stiffer and setting diffs more agressively) and that really helped bring back the feeling...certainly not the same as before, but at least it's not like being in a coma

Well... still learning... I can clearly see that all my cars need to be revamped to fit the new model. What worries me is that... how can I trust the game anymore? What if they scramble the physics again in a month or so? I spend many hours tweaking the cars, for what?

Oh well...

 

[JDMKING13]

I don’t think it’s about being all out fast, but just feeling the challenge of driving a car, for me I don’t care about speed until I have a car dialed in it’s stock form.. this is why use lesser tires and run cars to their real counterparts… I could be faster in a 911 930 turbo with abs on weak.. but I run it with ABS off because I like the sensation of driving it as if I really drove it… unless I can be fast with abs off I don’t care if I’m better with it on.

 

[SergioRZ]

I went through the Nur Circuit Experience again (because I had done that just before the update) and I'm still in awe of how different it is... previously I had to use TCS1 to be able to drive that BMW, now it's pointless, TCS0 is much safer and more predictable than the old TCS1 hehehehehe what have they done? It's crazy, really, and totally unexpected.