Gran Turismo 7 Physics

[Firestone]

It's not, and AC isn't the best physics out there.

That GT7 struggles to match the physics of a title as old as AC is an indication of how much it still has to catch up, keep in mind that's AC on console as well, not the PC release with modded physics.

Not that cutting edge physics has been GT's focus as a series for a long time, accessibility and visuals have, and its done damn well in that regard.

GT 7 is getting solid with its physics, and that's great to see, but it's not RF2, ACC, or AMS2 level, and unlikely to be this generation.

AC on console does not have good physics at all. I’d put GT Sport well above original AC in this regard also. Someone mentioned that the tire model is updated on the PC version and the console version is on an older model.

I have ACC on PS5 and did back to back tests with the R8 Evo and it drives pretty similar to GT7 with ACC feeling a bit floatier compared to GT. GT isn’t as bad as people are making it out to be and with the latest update adding additional slip angle, the cars feel even better.

Production cars in GT is nothing to look past and I’ll keep making the argument that they are pretty on point and can be translated to real life identically.

 

[graesand]

Okay. Seems like my irl experiences timed perfectly with some of the recent comments. I will try to be brief and less salty, yet a bit spicy. Just ignore this entire post if you are sensitive to critique towards GT.

For some backstory, i play gt for the roadcars, for the shotty CS tyres or the like and on a wheel with hbox shifter. Ive a 350mm nardi wheel on my base, pretty similar to what youd find in a sporty miata. I love gt for ease of use, for what used to be grear online lobbys etc.

I drove the NA mx5 1.6 (stock) in game all morning, because i knew what weekend i had before me. Very "interesting" handling in the game to say the least.

This afternoon i went to (IRL; in real life; " very very real driving, not even a simulator") drive a pristine, fully stock, NB mx5 1.6. This particular car has been completely overhauled for $$$ and kept stock. Even has stock wheels, its what many mortals would call a silly expense for a car. He could have had a pretty tuned miata for the price he spent.. If its any point to you, IL motorsport of germany did parts of the overhaul, they are pretty good with miatas... Its been to a professional body shop also, and a complete respray. Its a pre facelift model, has zero rust and ALL is oem, even wheels are stock and tires are stock size continentals, ill check exactly what spec if you want. The owner is quite particular about this car, and miatas, but apparently took it for granted that i would wring its neck out, of which im partly ashamed and partly giggleing.

My experience is as follows.

Unless you are at a standstill and dump the clutch at max revs, it wont break traction. If you are extremely agressive and deliberately throw the car, yes, it will behave accordingly, but you will know and feel everything. Not once will the tires turn into magic ice. Not once will the steering wheel feel like a rubberband aiming to rip your wrists off. I got overtaken at a zipper by a bmw i3. So there you go, thats the massive power of the n/a 1.6....

So, what is this then? Do i think GT7 isnt enjoyable? No! I think its an OK game, yes a GAME. I enjoy playing Gt7 with some beers and friends. We have been doing this since gt5, neither myself or my mates ever expected gt to be perfect simulator, but it always had an OK middle ground for wheel players to fool themselves into having enough fun racing around in cars that where "within reach" irl, until gt7, imho.

Now, i know NA and NB miata are a generation apart, but the basic handling characteristics of a near 50/50 weigth dist car, FR layout, same basic engine and tire combo, same gearbox, same diff (nearly, i think) makes it as close of a comparison i can make.

Obviously here is a big disconnect firstly between pad and wheel user, i dont make a point of it more than that, a wheel is what i have and also what the car has. OK. When i play gt7 on pad, its very easy. On wheel, different story. Im not Senna, but i do OK in most other sims and driving irl, irl is karting, thrashing my own cars and testdriving others respectfully.

In the case of this miata business, and also comparing to a swift sport(older one in game) atleast with the swift, i could get close to the feel in the steering in gtsport, but not the exact force. Close was still miles away but yesh, i could see a resemblance there.

Driving test of virtual vs real miata is just not comparable. Gt7 is in no way a simulator in my opinion. Steering feel is not even close. Chassis dynamics are way off. Tire modeling is on another planet.

I dont know, dont want to start another *********, but these are my honest opinions of this comparison. GT7 mustnt be a bad game because of this alone, theres plenty of other things that make it a pretty big mess as is, but having seat time in something this close to a car in game, its my conclusion as of now, GT7 has really not nailed this part down.

Ok so once again, before somebody get hurt, its not a bad game, but its not even close to simulation.

Im sorry, but driving a car is not that hard as GT7 sometimes make it.

I dont want to step on any toes by writing this, but id love to hear more from other ppl who can compare IRL to game.


Peace and have a nice weekend!

 

[Firestone]

Okay. Seems like my irl experiences timed perfectly with some of the recent comments. I will try to be brief and less salty, yet a bit spicy. Just ignore this entire post if you are sensitive to critique towards GT.

For some backstory, i play gt for the roadcars, for the shotty CS tyres or the like and on a wheel with hbox shifter. Ive a 350mm nardi wheel on my base, pretty similar to what youd find in a sporty miata. I love gt for ease of use, for what used to be grear online lobbys etc.

I drove the NA mx5 1.6 (stock) in game all morning, because i knew what weekend i had before me. Very "interesting" handling in the game to say the least.

This afternoon i went to (IRL; in real life; " very very real driving, not even a simulator") drive a pristine, fully stock, NB mx5 1.6. This particular car has been completely overhauled for $$$ and kept stock. Even has stock wheels, its what many mortals would call a silly expense for a car. He could have had a pretty tuned miata for the price he spent.. If its any point to you, IL motorsport of germany did parts of the overhaul, they are pretty good with miatas... Its been to a professional body shop also, and a complete respray. Its a pre facelift model, has zero rust and ALL is oem, even wheels are stock and tires are stock size continentals, ill check exactly what spec if you want. The owner is quite particular about this car, and miatas, but apparently took it for granted that i would wring its neck out, of which im partly ashamed and partly giggleing.

My experience is as follows.

Unless you are at a standstill and dump the clutch at max revs, it wont break traction. If you are extremely agressive and deliberately throw the car, yes, it will behave accordingly, but you will know and feel everything. Not once will the tires turn into magic ice. Not once will the steering wheel feel like a rubberband aiming to rip your wrists off. I got overtaken at a zipper by a bmw i3. So there you go, thats the massive power of the n/a 1.6....

So, what is this then? Do i think GT7 isnt enjoyable? No! I think its an OK game, yes a GAME. I enjoy playing Gt7 with some beers and friends. We have been doing this since gt5, neither myself or my mates ever expected gt to be perfect simulator, but it always had an OK middle ground for wheel players to fool themselves into having enough fun racing around in cars that where "within reach" irl, until gt7, imho.

Now, i know NA and NB miata are a generation apart, but the basic handling characteristics of a near 50/50 weigth dist car, FR layout, same basic engine and tire combo, same gearbox, same diff (nearly, i think) makes it as close of a comparison i can make.

Obviously here is a big disconnect firstly between pad and wheel user, i dont make a point of it more than that, a wheel is what i have and also what the car has. OK. When i play gt7 on pad, its very easy. On wheel, different story. Im not Senna, but i do OK in most other sims and driving irl, irl is karting, thrashing my own cars and testdriving others respectfully.

In the case of this miata business, and also comparing to a swift sport(older one in game) atleast with the swift, i could get close to the feel in the steering in gtsport, but not the exact force. Close was still miles away but yesh, i could see a resemblance there.

Driving test of virtual vs real miata is just not comparable. Gt7 is in no way a simulator in my opinion. Steering feel is not even close. Chassis dynamics are way off. Tire modeling is on another planet.

I dont know, dont want to start another *********, but these are my honest opinions of this comparison. GT7 mustnt be a bad game because of this alone, theres plenty of other things that make it a pretty big mess as is, but having seat time in something this close to a car in game, its my conclusion as of now, GT7 has really not nailed this part down.

Ok so once again, before somebody get hurt, its not a bad game, but its not even close to simulation.

Im sorry, but driving a car is not that hard as GT7 sometimes make it.

I dont want to step on any toes by writing this, but id love to hear more from other ppl who can compare IRL to game.


Peace and have a nice weekend!

What tires you were on is key and whether you actually pushed the car to the limit. I can tell you as someone with quite a bit of seat time, you are going to be a lot more timid irl than in the game where you don’t have any sense of speed. Experiencing g forces in the car, you may think you are pushing hard, but you are not.

Edit: Ok, so I tested the NA MX-5 in the game and you are giving completely false information. SH (which are basically Michelin PS4S tires) on the stock setup you can basically go flat out everywhere. CS (Michelin PS4) tires you can still basically go flat out. The ND MX-5 is almost the same story with being able to nearly go flat out on SH everywhere and 80-100% with the CS.

Ok so once again, before somebody get hurt, its not a bad game, but its not even close to simulation.

I think you've lost all qualifications to make this determination.

 

[ScottPuss20]

AC on console does not have good physics at all. I’d put GT Sport well above original AC in this regard also. Someone mentioned that the tire model is updated on the PC version and the console version is on an older model.

The AC physics on console are way better than the physics of GT Sport.

I have ACC on PS5 and did back to back tests with the R8 Evo and it drives pretty similar to GT7 with ACC feeling a bit floatier compared to GT. GT isn’t as bad as people are making it out to be and with the latest update adding additional slip angle, the cars feel even better.

I feel like the opposite is true. I too have driven the car in both games and I find that ACC has a greater connection to the road, providing better feedback and allowing you drive with more confidence.

Production cars in GT is nothing to look past and I’ll keep making the argument that they are pretty on point and can be translated to real life identically.

I wouldn't go that far.

 

[MarrGuitar]

GT7 is in no way a simulator in my opinion. Steering feel is not even close. Chassis dynamics are way off. Tire modeling is on another planet.

The problem is, GT7 is trying to be more of a simulator, but they haven’t got it right. My view is that the steering is off because the FFB is too basic, chassis dynamics are way off because weight transfer is too exaggerated and tyres don’t behave or feel correct when pushed to the limit. These are things that I really hope are improved soon because GT7 could be one of the absolute best racing sims available. Of course there are many other issues to iron out first besides physics

Im sorry, but driving a car is not that hard as GT7 sometimes make it.

Honestly, I’ve got almost all the main PC sims (AC, ACC, rF2, Raceroom, AMS2). I can jump between them and drive pretty decently straight away. Because they have excellent and intuitive physics that are praised even by real racing drivers. Of course all of those have different FFB and physics engines, so they do feel different to each other, but they still make sense to me when I’m racing. Then I jump on GT7 and try to drive a GT3 car the same as I would in those other sims, and it simply feels so far behind in terms of FFB feel and car handling. It ends up being much harder to play because the physics are weird.

Edit: Ok, so I tested the NA MX-5 in the game and you are giving completely false information. SH (which are basically Michelin PS4S tires) on the stock setup you can basically go flat out everywhere. CS (Michelin PS4) tires you can still basically go flat out. The ND MX-5 is almost the same story with being able to nearly go flat out on SH everywhere and 80-100% with the CS.


I think you've lost all qualifications to make this determination.

I don’t think so. Graesand’s points are very valid. Maybe you can go flat out on those tyres but the way they feel in the game is nowhere near real life

 

[Firestone]

The AC physics on console are way better than the physics of GT Sport.

I strongly disagree. Cars on console version handle way too flat. There doesn't seem to be a lot going on with the suspension and how it affects the grip of the cars. And the biggest thing is the cars understeer way too much that it make driving feel not natural.

I feel like the opposite is true. I too have driven the car in both games and I find that ACC has a greater connection to the road, providing better feedback and allowing you drive with more confidence.

I'll agree with this. Cars in ACC feel really good.
I'm just saying GT isn't too bad and feel many aspects the R8 Evo somewhat similarly. I was able to get identical lap times. Default tunes in GT matches ACC base set up and the traction control in GT feels similar to a TC 4 in ACC.

I wouldn't go that far.

I would. I've driven 2 cars irl and in the game with the Evo X being extensive and it handles as to what I expect it should in the game.

I don’t think so. Graesand’s points are very valid. Maybe you can go flat out on those tyres but the way they feel in the game is nowhere near real life

I don't think his points are valid. Both Miatas are very straight forward in the game. The NA is basically a point and shoot car with the SH tires. Handling is nowhere being trivial or surprising. What he characterized the game as is simply not true.

 

[ScottPuss20]

I strongly disagree. Cars on console version handle way too flat. There doesn't seem to be a lot going on with the suspension and how it affects the grip of the cars. And the biggest thing is the cars understeer way too much that it make driving feel not natural.

The driving in AC feels very natural.

I'm just saying GT isn't too bad and feel many aspects the R8 Evo somewhat similarly. I was able to get identical lap times. Default tunes in GT matches ACC base set up and the traction control in GT feels similar to a TC 4 in ACC.

The biggest issue with mid-engined GT3 cars like R8, 458 and Huracan in GT7 is that they slide out from underneath you at times where they should be gripping without any trouble. I do not get this in ACC at all, even with the traction control turned off. And no, the traction system in GT7 is not like ACC. Far worse actually.

I would. I've driven 2 cars irl and in the game with the Evo X being extensive and it handles as to what I expect it should in the game.

Key point here is what YOU expect. Just because something feels right doesn't mean that it actually is underneath the skin. GT7 doesn't simulate tyre pressures or tyre temperature as far as I'm aware, so you will not be able to replicate the real-world performance as accurately. I encourage you to drive an Evo X in AC on PC and then get back to me.

 

[HugoTwoWheels]

Okay. Seems like my irl experiences timed perfectly with some of the recent comments. I will try to be brief and less salty, yet a bit spicy. Just ignore this entire post if you are sensitive to critique towards GT.

For some backstory, i play gt for the roadcars, for the shotty CS tyres or the like and on a wheel with hbox shifter. Ive a 350mm nardi wheel on my base, pretty similar to what youd find in a sporty miata. I love gt for ease of use, for what used to be grear online lobbys etc.

I drove the NA mx5 1.6 (stock) in game all morning, because i knew what weekend i had before me. Very "interesting" handling in the game to say the least.

This afternoon i went to (IRL; in real life; " very very real driving, not even a simulator") drive a pristine, fully stock, NB mx5 1.6. This particular car has been completely overhauled for $$$ and kept stock. Even has stock wheels, its what many mortals would call a silly expense for a car. He could have had a pretty tuned miata for the price he spent.. If its any point to you, IL motorsport of germany did parts of the overhaul, they are pretty good with miatas... Its been to a professional body shop also, and a complete respray. Its a pre facelift model, has zero rust and ALL is oem, even wheels are stock and tires are stock size continentals, ill check exactly what spec if you want. The owner is quite particular about this car, and miatas, but apparently took it for granted that i would wring its neck out, of which im partly ashamed and partly giggleing.

My experience is as follows.

Unless you are at a standstill and dump the clutch at max revs, it wont break traction. If you are extremely agressive and deliberately throw the car, yes, it will behave accordingly, but you will know and feel everything. Not once will the tires turn into magic ice. Not once will the steering wheel feel like a rubberband aiming to rip your wrists off. I got overtaken at a zipper by a bmw i3. So there you go, thats the massive power of the n/a 1.6....

So, what is this then? Do i think GT7 isnt enjoyable? No! I think its an OK game, yes a GAME. I enjoy playing Gt7 with some beers and friends. We have been doing this since gt5, neither myself or my mates ever expected gt to be perfect simulator, but it always had an OK middle ground for wheel players to fool themselves into having enough fun racing around in cars that where "within reach" irl, until gt7, imho.

Now, i know NA and NB miata are a generation apart, but the basic handling characteristics of a near 50/50 weigth dist car, FR layout, same basic engine and tire combo, same gearbox, same diff (nearly, i think) makes it as close of a comparison i can make.

Obviously here is a big disconnect firstly between pad and wheel user, i dont make a point of it more than that, a wheel is what i have and also what the car has. OK. When i play gt7 on pad, its very easy. On wheel, different story. Im not Senna, but i do OK in most other sims and driving irl, irl is karting, thrashing my own cars and testdriving others respectfully.

In the case of this miata business, and also comparing to a swift sport(older one in game) atleast with the swift, i could get close to the feel in the steering in gtsport, but not the exact force. Close was still miles away but yesh, i could see a resemblance there.

Driving test of virtual vs real miata is just not comparable. Gt7 is in no way a simulator in my opinion. Steering feel is not even close. Chassis dynamics are way off. Tire modeling is on another planet.

I dont know, dont want to start another *********, but these are my honest opinions of this comparison. GT7 mustnt be a bad game because of this alone, theres plenty of other things that make it a pretty big mess as is, but having seat time in something this close to a car in game, its my conclusion as of now, GT7 has really not nailed this part down.

Ok so once again, before somebody get hurt, its not a bad game, but its not even close to simulation.

Im sorry, but driving a car is not that hard as GT7 sometimes make it.

I dont want to step on any toes by writing this, but id love to hear more from other ppl who can compare IRL to game.


Peace and have a nice weekend!

Nice post.

In your comparison, how much can you decouple the experience of physics to the experience of FFB?
In real life you got a steering wheel, yes, but you're most likely making inputs by how your body feels, not how the steering wheel feels. If the FFB in a game sucks, making you input too much or too quick steering, because the sensations are weak/vague/wrong, is it even possible to judge the physics fairly?

You said that you can make the RL Miata lose traction if you drove it like an idiot. That's what I think many do when their FFB is too weak or sucks in general, but they think they're being careful and have precision - the feedback from the game isn't there so they steer too much and too quick (driving the car like an idiot).

For me and many others, the FFB is vastly improved in GT DD Pro since 1.15. The strength is fine in fast race cars like Gr.1 and Super Formula but road cars need more strength - I'm assuming that's fixed soon. If you want to try it, let me know - at least then you know if you're missing something in the FFB or if the physics feel the same.

The DD1/2 apparently got vastly improved by yesterday's release of a completely rewritten firmware.

(Imagine if the discussions in general at GTP could be at this level...)

 

[Firestone]

The driving in AC feels very natural.

Definitely not on the console version.

The biggest issue with mid-engined GT3 cars like R8, 458 and Huracan in GT7 is that they slide out from underneath you at times where they should be gripping without any trouble. I do not get this in ACC at all, even with the traction control turned off. And no, the traction system in GT7 is not like ACC. Far worse actually.

I don't know. Cars in GT are understeery. They will slide out if you upset the balance or if you are on power with a certain turn radius. The same happens in ACC. FB is great in ACC since you can feel the progressive slip, which is hard to feel in GT. I'm not saying GT is on ACC level, but hopping back and forth, there is enough familiarity. GT isn't bad as everyone is exaggerating the race cars to be.

Key point here is what YOU expect. Just because something feels right doesn't mean that it actually is underneath the skin. GT7 doesn't simulate tyre pressures or tyre temperature as far as I'm aware, so you will not be able to replicate the real-world performance as accurately. I encourage you to drive an Evo X in AC on PC and then get back to me.

GT has Streets of Willow and that's my local track. I've driven identical setups in the game as to rl. I don't really need any more information on GTs accuracy on this. I train on GT. FFB is accurate. The way the steering snaps and unloads under acceleration is accurate. Grip is accurate. Suspension response is accurate. I'm not too worried about tire pressure because tires get up to temp irl after one warm up lap. GT just has it set to optimal rage outside of Sport mode, which does simulate cold tires with some regard.
My PC is outdate, so I unfortunately cant place AC on it, but I don't think I'll be too wowed by the Evo X on it since GT already does a exceptional job with replicating it.

 

[Scaff]

Can we list some specfics?

Examples being...

• forces on 4 individual tires being modeled
• tire deformation modeling
• tire grip modeling
• tire temps, track temps
• suspension geometry, camber curves, toe curves
• spring rates, damper rates
• LSD effects
• aerodynamics
• game doesn't force you to turn on the ignition
• the clock in the dash is the wrong shade of blue
• etc etc.

GT as a series has had its principal issues around its :

• Tyre model, its struggled to model tyre progression, slip to grip transitions and the effects of pressure and temp, vintage (cross-ply) tyres have never been modelled at all
• Dampers have been overly effective, particularly with (again) older cars
• LSD modelling is basic, with FWD cars in particular suffering when combined with the tyre model issues.
• Aero, where to start when the basics of aero lift don't even figure into the model?
• Load transer itself is basic, with GT 7 only just starting to show signs of lift-off oversteer, PD's inexperience with this area has already shown in the launch day issues with RWD cars.

For me personally, my priority is on how the car behaves given driver inputs. If I turn the wheel like this, brake like this, give gas like this, would a car behave in game like in real life? So if GT7 doesn't do temps and tire wear well, I don't really care as much, and to me that doesn't make it any less SIM because it doesn't affect my priorities. If a game rotates a car around a central axis instead of modeling the behavior of a mass on 4 wheels, then that's a non starter.

Tyre temps are a vital factor in accuracy, flash heating of tyres massively affects how a vehicle behaves dynamically and gets more critical when you move from road to race-specific compounds.

I think it's important to discuss details, and not just paint the thing with a broad brush. Isn't that the problem we have on society today? No one wants to discuss nuance, only want to apply labels. Let's not do that.

I'm not sure you have actually read this and other threads, as detail has been discussed repeatedly.

AC on console does not have good physics at all.

Demonstrably untrue, as has been shown time and time again in this very thread.

I’d put GT Sport well above original AC in this regard also.

GT Sport can now model lift-off oversteer, has progressive tyres that model cross-plys, and LSD's that work as they do in reality? Nope.

Someone mentioned that the tire model is updated on the PC version and the console version is on an older model.

Then they are wrong, both run on the v10 tyre model

I have ACC on PS5 and did back to back tests with the R8 Evo and it drives pretty similar to GT7 with ACC feeling a bit floatier compared to GT. GT isn’t as bad as people are making it out to be and with the latest update adding additional slip angle, the cars feel even better.

GT7 does feel better than any past GT title in terms of physics, but that's not a massive hurdle to cross given GTS was a generation plus behind the best sims on the market.

Production cars in GT is nothing to look past and I’ll keep making the argument that they are pretty on point and can be translated to real life identically.

Identically? Not a single sim in existence manages that, so to claim GT7 does is patently nonsense.

 

[graesand]

What tires you were on is key and whether you actually pushed the car to the limit. I can tell you as someone with quite a bit of seat time, you are going to be a lot more timid irl than in the game where you don’t have any sense of speed. Experiencing g forces in the car, you may think you are pushing hard, but you are not.

Edit: Ok, so I tested the NA MX-5 in the game and you are giving completely false information. SH (which are basically Michelin PS4S tires) on the stock setup you can basically go flat out everywhere. CS (Michelin PS4) tires you can still basically go flat out. The ND MX-5 is almost the same story with being able to nearly go flat out on SH everywhere and 80-100% with the CS.


I think you've lost all qualifications to make this determination.

Continental ContiPremiumContact tyres. 195/50r15 all around. I guess they are equivalent to CM???

Also he is supposedly running "high" tyre pressure. Instead of the recommended 1.8 bar, its running at least 2.0 bar all around.

Im for sure more timid IRL since its not my personal car, i hope this will change in the coming year or so, as a miata is the eqivalent of me upgrading my gpu, my vr headset and buying a sweet rig lol....

The car can be floored in any gear out of any corner with confidence tho...

Also, the whole car, pedals, steering feel more loose yet connected irl than the game. Hard to explain, reality beats virtuality for sure.

Its not just GT that fails at this, but i think GT is more far off than other sims. I had a lengthy discussion with the owner of the car last night about sims. Hes of the opinion nothing really ever came close to the real thing while he dabbled with various sims, therefore gave them up and kept to enjoying the irl drive experience. I have to say hes won me over and from an economical standpoint, i think a cheap miata would beat any DD wheel... Thats just me....

I see you have determined my (dis)qualifications, thats great. Good job.

 

[graesand]

Nice post.

In your comparison, how much can you decouple the experience of physics to the experience of FFB?
In real life you got a steering wheel, yes, but you're most likely making inputs by how your body feels, not how the steering wheel feels. If the FFB in a game sucks, making you input too much or too quick steering, because the sensations are weak/vague/wrong, is it even possible to judge the physics fairly?

Umm, im not sure, firestone made it clear i have to little seat time to make any distinction about driving a car. I might just make a video with pedal cam one day, flooring it around these narrow roads with off camber etc lol.

But back to the matter, yes ofc irl its all about your butt, what it feels. The miata has excellent steering tho, with 0 scrub radius, something a bit complex to explain here, but i can tell you its not very easy to acheive in suspension design, talking from experience here as im drawing up a lotus seven replica in my computer on my free time.

The steering is direct and nice irl tho, you can feel the cars flexing, it loads up in a natural and nice way, its fairly heavy compared to the game, and best of all, i can let go off the wheel and it wont self oscillate at all!

Damn, my guys, everybody needs a miata in their life..!

 

[Scaff]

Nice post.

In your comparison, how much can you decouple the experience of physics to the experience of FFB?
In real life you got a steering wheel, yes, but you're most likely making inputs by how your body feels, not how the steering wheel feels. If the FFB in a game sucks, making you input too much or too quick steering, because the sensations are weak/vague/wrong, is it even possible to judge the physics fairly?

You said that you can make the RL Miata lose traction if you drove it like an idiot. That's what I think many do when their FFB is too weak or sucks in general, but they think they're being careful and have precision - the feedback from the game isn't there so they steer too much and too quick (driving the car like an idiot).

For me and many others, the FFB is vastly improved in GT DD Pro since 1.15. The strength is fine in fast race cars like Gr.1 and Super Formula but road cars need more strength - I'm assuming that's fixed soon. If you want to try it, let me know - at least then you know if you're missing something in the FFB or if the physics feel the same.

The DD1/2 apparently got vastly improved by yesterday's release of a completely rewritten firmware.

(Imagine if the discussions in general at GTP could be at this level...)

Yes, it is 100% possible to judge the physics even with poor FFB, GT7's FFB even pre 1.15 nerf is nothing to write home about.

That didn't stop people (well most - some just said it was power oversteer) from correctly and accurately identifying that GT7 at launch had a significant and serious physics issue with rear-wheel drive cars and snap oversteer. Does it make it harder to filter the two into the respective data sets, yes, but it's perfectly possible and has been done repeatedly.

 

[HugoTwoWheels]

Hes of the opinion nothing really ever came close to the real thing

This is a bit philosophical, but important to avoid miscommunication.

In a philosophical discussion, one would always start by defining what the real thing is, what a sim is and what a game is, and what the term realistic means.

By my definitions, the skills needed in driving most of the cars in GT are easily transferable to driving in real life. They're even transferable to all the motorcycles I've owned through the years. Also, the real life motorcycle skills are also transferable to the game. Despite motorcycles being very different from cars.
Since that's my experience, and by my definitions of the term realistic, GTS/GT7 are realistic sims.

Coming from different premises, like the ones Scaff's always having about technicalities, I'm sure the conclusion can be the opposite. In that case, GT7 is definitely not a sim, but perhaps a fun game that's somewhat resembling real life.
I agree with this view as well. Also, I'd be surprised if game development in this genre doesn't go more towards accurate representation of reality in detail.

So, I agree with your friend with the nice Miata, but I'm still having fun in GT7 and learning/practicing things that I find are relatable to real life.

Suddenly I seem to agree with everyone. One does that if approaching something from their view, I assume.

And again, bad FFB can absolutely mess everything up, for me. I can absolutely ruin my experience by twisting the wrong knobs in Fanatec's tuning menu, making it feel like an impossible arcade game.
Sure, Scaff can decouple FFB from physics, but I can't and I'm sure most can't.

 

[Scaff]

This is a bit philosophical, but important to avoid miscommunication.

In a philosophical discussion, one would always start by defining what the real thing is, what a sim is and what a game is, and what the term realistic means.

By my definitions, the skills needed in driving most of the cars in GT are easily transferable to driving in real life. They're even transferable to all the motorcycles I've owned through the years. Also, the real life motorcycle skills are also transferable to the game. Despite motorcycles being very different from cars.
Since that's my experience, and by my definitions of the term realistic, GTS/GT7 are realistic sims.

Coming from different premises, like the ones Scaff's always having about technicalities, I'm sure the conclusion can be the opposite. In that case, GT7 is definitely not a sim, but perhaps a fun game that's somewhat resembling real life.
I agree with this view as well. Also, I'd be surprised if game development in this genre doesn't go more towards accurate representation of reality in detail.

So, I agree with your friend with the nice Miata, but I'm still having fun in GT7 and learning/practicing things that I find are relatable to real life.

Suddenly I seem to agree with everyone. One does that if approaching something from their view, I assume.

And again, bad FFB can absolutely mess everything up, for me. I can absolutely ruin my experience by twisting the wrong knobs in Fanatec's tuning menu, making it feel like an impossible arcade game.
Sure, Scaff can decouple FFB from physics, but I can't and I'm sure most can't.

I've never said GT isn't a sim, quite the opposite in fact, however, a 'sim' isn't a singular fixed value, but rather a spectrum. GT7 is a sim, as is RF2, but the fidelity and accuracy of each differ.

 

[HugoTwoWheels]

I've never said GT isn't a sim, quite the opposite in fact, however, a 'sim' isn't a singular fixed value, but rather a spectrum. GT7 is a sim, as is RF2, but the fidelity and accuracy of each differ.

Oh yes, couldn't agree more. Give me the interface of GTS, player count of GT7, but with the physics and FFB of whatever you consider to be best, and I'd be very happy. Until then, my priorities are in the simplicity of good online racing in GT7.

 

[extreme car]

Oh yes, couldn't agree more. Give me the interface of GTS, player count of GT7, but with the physics and FFB of whatever you consider to be best, and I'd be very happy. Until then, my priorities are in the simplicity of good online racing in GT7.

GT7 online is kind of a mess right now, I tend to stay away from them until they fix the lobbies to close what GT Sport is/was.

 

[Firestone]

Demonstrably untrue, as has been shown time and time again in this very thread.

I just think it's people familiar with the game wanting to make a case for it. There are some fundamental flaws with it that breaks it.

GT Sport can now model lift-off oversteer, has progressive tyres that model cross-plys, and LSD's that work as they do in reality? Nope.

GT Sport did have lift off oversteer. I can't get behind hyping the tire model when it's not really convincing. GT Sport didn't have the older cars to model cross-plys.

GT7 does feel better than any past GT title in terms of physics, but that's not a massive hurdle to cross given GTS was a generation plus behind the best sims on the market.

ACC is great. I enjoy driving the race cars more than in GT. But AC is a big no for me.

Identically? Not a single sim in existence manages that, so to claim GT7 does is patently nonsense.

Ok, I'll use the word similar. The driving fundamentals can be translated to rl.

Continental ContiPremiumContact tyres. 195/50r15 all around. I guess they are equivalent to CM???

Summer performance tires? If so, that will put it at either CM or SH. SH are comparable to PS4S which are summer performance.

Also he is supposedly running "high" tyre pressure. Instead of the recommended 1.8 bar, its running at least 2.0 bar all around.

2 bar optimal run pressure? If so, that isn't really high.

Im for sure more timid IRL since its not my personal car, i hope this will change in the coming year or so, as a miata is the eqivalent of me upgrading my gpu, my vr headset and buying a sweet rig lol....

You will get there and it will be a blast driving.

The car can be floored in any gear out of any corner with confidence tho...

I think the tires on the car allow it. CS or SH in the game is the same.

Its not just GT that fails at this, but i think GT is more far off than other sims. I had a lengthy discussion with the owner of the car last night about sims. Hes of the opinion nothing really ever came close to the real thing while he dabbled with various sims, therefore gave them up and kept to enjoying the irl drive experience. I have to say hes won me over and from an economical standpoint, i think a cheap miata would beat any DD wheel... Thats just me....

Nothing will beat real life. But I will go against your opinion that GT fails at being a sim. Once you start driving irl at limits, you will begin to understand.

 

[Scaff]

I just think it's people familiar with the game wanting to make a case for it. There are some fundamental flaws with it that breaks it.

Nope is not, and the irony runs deep given the degree of GT flaws you've excused.

GT Sport did have lift off oversteer. I can't get behind hyping the tire model when it's not really convincing. GT Sport didn't have the older cars to model cross-plys.

FWD lift off oversteer? Nope, nothing close to reality in that regard was present in GTS.

Given that the first factory fit radials hit the US market in 1970, GTS most certainly does have cars that should be running them.
.

Once you start driving irl at limits, you will begin to understand.

Odd given that you dismiss pretty much anyone else's real world experience unless it agrees with yours!

I can say with a high degree of certainty that I've more on the limit experience, across more tracks and more cars than you do. The majority with zero personal worry about damage to the cars in question as well. I more than understand the comparisons and the issues that remain with GT7.

Just to remind you that you used your real world experience to repeadly claim that the snap oversteer issue with GT7 was just down to others lack of on the limit experience. In reality it was a fundamental issue with GT7s physics engine!

For example, over a month before PD fixed that issue...

Post in thread 'Gran Turismo 7 Physics' https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/gran-turismo-7-physics.392642/post-13625160

 

[Tenacious D]

the way they feel in (GT7) is nowhere near real life

I wouldn't go that far. I suspect this is a car by car thing, but sometimes they're off some, sometimes they're off quite a bit. But I've always felt like I was in control of a car in GT7, not some random physics box on faux tires. Even with the frooky FFB we have now, I've felt like I was "there" in a car, which makes racing more exciting to me. As Hugo says above, we drive cars in real life from how we feel, not how our steering wheel feels. But in the game it's all we have, save for tire sounds - and I'd suggest again to juice them up in the audio mixer.

Everything with Gran Turismo comes in little steps. I wish they would make a broad jump, but that just doesn't seem to be their style. We'll see how things develop over the coming years. Now, to see about those DD Pro suggested settings...

 

[HugoTwoWheels]

tire sounds - and I'd suggest again to juice them up in the audio mixer

In GTS i drove with +5 dB. In GT7 even with +5dB I can't hear the tyres in bumper cam. The FFB is better however so I don't think I miss it too much, but it'd be nice to have the option.
Who cares if the tyre squeal isn't realistic - when I can't feel anything in my body, I need all the help I can get. For a lack of one sensation, another one has to compensate - that's more realistic to me than judging each sensation by itself, isolated. Look at the big picture, all sensations combined.

 

[Firestone]

Nope is not, and the irony runs deep given the degree of GT flaws you've excused.

I mean, you don't call AC a benchmark and have pointed out other better games that execute physics better. But you still go out and bat for AC a lot. I've maintained that GT has a better overall feeling and AC has major flaws in its model that I pointed out repeatedly. Others have also. You are a vehicle dynamists, so it surprises me that you are holding it to such a high regard.

FWD lift off oversteer? Nope, nothing close to reality in that regard was present in GTS.

I guess. I can't remember. I spent 90% of the time in RWD and AWD cars in that game.

Odd given that you dismiss pretty much anyone else's real world experience unless it agrees with yours!

I can say with a high degree of certainty that I've more on the limit experience, across more tracks and more cars than you do. The majority with zero personal worry about damage to the cars in question as well. I more than understand the comparisons and the issues that remain with GT7.

Just to remind you that you used your real world experience to repeadly claim that the snap oversteer issue with GT7 was just down to others lack of on the limit experience. In reality it was a fundamental issue with GT7s physics engine!

For example, over a month before PD fixed that issue...

Post in thread 'Gran Turismo 7 Physics' https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/gran-turismo-7-physics.392642/post-13625160

iirc, I made that comment after the first wave of updates where they fixed the stability of the RWD cars. I made the claim it was 80-90% there. There was the whole argument about the use of TC vs not using it and whether the game was forcing the user to use it. Then the whole argument of cars system stability management and assists and without them, cars being basically death traps. The core physics were always there, it was a matter of RWD grip. As for jumping on other people's experience, I know you hold a bias towards AC, so I don't expect you to argue against others who argue against GT or get critical information about it incorrect. So I'll jump on others about it.

 

[MarrGuitar]

I can’t wait for them to fix the ffb and do another physics update so we can have something new to discuss instead of going round in circles

 

[Scaff]

I mean, you don't call AC a benchmark and have pointed out other better games that execute physics better.

Indeed.

But you still go out and bat for AC a lot.

No, I've rebutted 'whataboutism' regarding AC.

I've maintained that GT has a better overall feeling and AC has major flaws in its model that I pointed out repeatedly. Others have also. You are a vehicle dynamists, so it surprises me that you are holding it to such a high regard.

Flaws that are so major that they have been rebutted with video evidence from both console and PC versions of AC.

I guess. I can't remember. I spent 90% of the time in RWD and AWD cars in that game.

Odd as you were quite unequivocal just a post ago.

iirc, I made that comment after the first wave of updates where they fixed the stability of the RWD cars. I made the claim it was 80-90% there. There was the whole argument about the use of TC vs not using it and whether the game was forcing the user to use it. Then the whole argument of cars system stability management and assists and without them, cars being basically death traps. The core physics were always there, it was a matter of RWD grip. As for jumping on other people's experience, I know you hold a bias towards AC, so I don't expect you to argue against others who argue against GT or get critical information about it incorrect. So I'll jump on others about it.

The oversteer issue wasn't patched until update 1.13, over a month after you made that post, it wasn't 'stealth' updated before then, nor as you absurdly claimed changed without an update.

"Adjusted the geometry calculations algorithm for the suspension. This has resulted in improved traction for rear-wheel drive cars and lessened reactions to weight transfer;"

Update Details (1.13) - Update - Gran Turismo 7 - gran-turismo.com

A new update for Gran Turismo 7 has been released. The following is a list of the main features and adjustments introduced.Main Features Implemented1. Cars　- The following three new cars have been added:　　・ Subaru BRZ GT300 ’21 (Purchasable at Brand Central;)　　・ Subaru BRZ S ’21 (Purchasable at...

www.gran-turismo.com

 

[Lord Protector]

iRacing’s tyre model is in a completely different universe. It makes driving a GT3 cars stupidly easy, which it should be. The cars has grip, it doesn’t snap on lift off, but it doesn’t understeer like crazy under throttle either. It just does its job. Why can’t we have physics like this? It makes no sense, especially when Kaz always talks how driving is easy and yet GT7 is the most difficult sim of all.

 

[FA_Hayes]

Had to take a small break after hurting my back and a bunch of chiropractor trips. After some heal time and back to it I think it's a pretty game but I'm still meh. Especially the constant FFB changes. I mean I get it but it's quite tedious if I want to take it seriously on a competitive level as I intend.

Was able to sell some things last week to fund my upgrade so now it's on to PC based and occasional for fun GT7. Picked up a nice PC, triple 32 curved screens, and some HV sprints to go with my DD1 to make me all giddy like a schoolgirl and can't wait to start pushing hard again!

 

[Pizzicato1985]

Yes, it is 100% possible to judge the physics even with poor FFB, GT7's FFB even pre 1.15 nerf is nothing to write home about.

I've been away from the game since 1.15 dropped, played the new races and dipped out for a week or so. Just came back in today to do some time trials and noticed my GT40 Mark 1 was acting really strange yet when I checked it was on the proper settings sheet.
Switched to the F1 and I can barely keep it on the track yet it was my second quickest super car in 1.13 and prior, as per track records... So I started to suspect something was wrong and switched to maybe the most planted sports/super car I had driven in GT7, the F50. Even prior to 1.13's RWD "bug fix" I had it tuned to the point where it could still be pushed very hard, yet when I took it around Brands Hatch I was coming in 4sec behind my best lap in the F50 as the rear-end kept wanting to step-out, even under careful throttle.

Anyway, I essentially came here to see if there was indeed a change to the physics with 1.15 so I assume this is true? Was going to post a separate thread about it but figured I'd check here first and luckily saw your post. Haven't really messes with racers but road cars feel like they're back to pre-1.13 or maybe worse with the copious wheel-spin, comically exaggerated oversteer, and weight-transfer (or tire model?) seemingly broken again. I noticed many cars want to go into the "uncatchable" fish-tails just like many of them did on 1.13. Pretty sure I read all of the patch notes and don't recall seeing anything about them tweaking the physics but maybe I should re-read it to be sure.

 

[Firestone]

Flaws that are so major that they have been rebutted with video evidence from both console and PC versions of AC.

Yes, however I’ve been repeating the claim that the cars don’t react or respond to steering inputs has they should. The response is lazy. Cars don’t feel nimble as they should. And understeer, I can’t stress enough.

Odd as you were quite unequivocal just a post ago.

You said cars don’t lift off oversteer on GT Sport, I said they do, then you narrowed the argument to FWD.

The oversteer issue wasn't patched until update 1.13, over a month after you made that post, it wasn't 'stealth' updated before then, nor as you absurdly claimed changed without an update.

"Adjusted the geometry calculations algorithm for the suspension. This has resulted in improved traction for rear-wheel drive cars and lessened reactions to weight transfer;"

undocumented changes were made as early as 1.06. A lot of us have been playing the game everyday to know changes and it has been already specified by other forum members that undocumented changes have been occurring. The first week oversteer and control issues were changed. I recall overhearing people at my autox event talking about the changes.

 

[ScottPuss20]

Yes, however I’ve been repeating the claim that the cars don’t react or respond to steering inputs has they should. The response is lazy. Cars don’t feel nimble as they should. And understeer, I can’t stress enough.

The cars react very well to your input. I'd hardly call the response lazy.

You said cars don’t lift off oversteer on GT Sport, I said they do, then you narrowed the argument to FWD.

He didn't narrow the argument at all. FWD cars are known for their lift-off oversteer!

 

[Scaff]

Yes, however I’ve been repeating the claim that the cars don’t react or respond to steering inputs has they should. The response is lazy. Cars don’t feel nimble as they should. And understeer, I can’t stress enough.

They don't, but I suspect that this actually has nothing to do with AC's physics engine and more to do with it running at 30fps on console. Oh, and you can stress understeer all you like, your overblown claims about it have been repeatedly debunked by videos from numerous sources on both console and PC.

You said cars don’t lift off oversteer on GT Sport, I said they do, then you narrowed the argument to FWD.

No, I used FWD as the example that should be by far the most obvious. Of all the drivetrains that should show it, if it's modeled, FWD should be it, yet they don't. Also given that you were singularly unequivocal about its presence, examining a particular drivetrain shouldn't be an issue.

undocumented changes were made as early as 1.06. A lot of us have been playing the game everyday to know changes and it has been already specified by other forum members that undocumented changes have been occurring. The first week oversteer and control issues were changed. I recall overhearing people at my autox event talking about the changes.

With zero agreement until 1.13, and you've already demonstrated a very clear confirmation bias in that regard.