Gran Turismo 7 Physics

[Stakado]

I‘m operating under the assumption that a gr3 car with upgrades will cost a million credits to race online with, and with that in mind it does seem like a very tough ask to get a nice roster to select from without using real money.

Definitely up for that. Im using TC on at least 1 now. I feel a bit dirty doing it, and like somewhat of a pleb but it gives me a little more confidence with exits. I think PD should have communicated what they changed and what they were trying to achieve By doing it.

Dont be afraid by using TC, in real life, GT3 cars in races are using TC and its prohibited runing without it.
Only in DTM and GT500 TC is disabled

 

[CBH]

I totally agree with this below.

I agree that the road surface is different, but it is plainly unrealistic at such a low speed. I was feathering the accelerator; I was not even attempting WOT.

I'm not saying that it's wrong that the car is harder to control, I'm saying that it's absurd at such a low speed and with cars that have such little horsepower.

 

[NikNakTobasco]

A track surface is very different from a road surface generally. Scaff touched on that in an earlier post. And I think when we are gaming, we don't realize just HOW much harder we are pushing a car than we could ever get away with in real life.

Yeah but we’ve driven road cars around corners in real life and a slight dab of throttle would never result in spinning out the way it does in low power rwd in game

Honestly, I feel like the dry condition physics on RWD cars are closer to driving in the rain; the game needs a boost to traction in general.

I think the whole game is operating under these odd physics. That’s why rally cross is like driving on the moon and everything is overly slippy.

 

[BolverkGTM]

Wow, I haven't been here since 2012. Crazy. Here's my current thoughts on GT7 and how its physics are holding up.

+ Physics are an improvement. Rain makes everything painful, especially for RWD cars. Yes, turning Traction Control off and having a sloppy foot will lead to bad times....as they should.

+ The feedback provided on gravel is way, way better. As a rally enjoyer, being able to feel my suspension compress and shift in such great detail is nice to have. Riding a rumble strip feels like it can actually hurt you now (spoiler alert, it can....and it does)

+ Thank god the license tests are back in full action. I've had a few moments where, despite sim racing for years, I had to check myself and think critically on how to improve until I got golds. The game successfully makes you feel like you can do better.

Honestly, the sense of speed overall is a significant improvement and the way the game reflects that by being so unapologetic in its desire to punish you for little mistakes? Freaking brilliant, this is what I wanted to see with Gran Turismo 7 taking the fight to the PC sim lineup. I love my iRacing, rFactor 2, ACC, etc. but it's nice to enjoy something that is more widely known and accepted as "The Real Driving Simulator."

 

[sejtur]

While I appreciate the suggestion for in-game purposes, it is quite ridiculous how unrealistic wet driving is.

I did the license test with the modern Alpine and I couldn't even turn at 35 mph without my car trying to go sideways. I'd hate to see highways while it's raining in the GT universe... lol.

Honestly, I feel like the dry condition physics on RWD cars are closer to driving in the rain; the game needs a boost to traction in general.

I'm all gold up to IA-8; so I feel as if I have a bit of a foot to stand on with this.

You're talking about the hairpin I assume, where my lowest speed was 28 mph. Let's take in account the circumstances: it's a MR car with 250 HP, in the wet through a hairpin. In contrast, an F1 car takes a hairpin in the dry going 35 mph. If we look at it that way, 28 mph seems very realistic.

 

[B80]

may be wrong, but can recall some extremely badly handling cars around 10 years ago in whatever GT was around then. Lambos all over the shop with just the slightest bit of power applied. I know they're reknowned for having a certain style/rawness/spriit, but not to the extent in that game, or for rwd's in this one.

Seems odd PD don;t notice this during what I assume is extensive testing?

I'm not talking about hammering cars on tracks either. But if you stepped into the M4 in this game and drove it fairly normally, you;d think you;d have to be some kind of pro driver to handle one in day to day driving, which is far from the truth.

 

[BolverkGTM]

may be wrong, but can recall some extremely badly handling cars around 10 years ago in whatever GT was around then. Lambos all over the shop with just the slightest bit of power applied. I know they're reknowned for having a certain style/rawness, but not to the extent in that game, or for rwd's in this one.

Seems odd PD don;t notice this during what I assume is extensive testing?

Lamborghini's badge is a prancing bull. Their entire brand is making cars that can and will kill you. But if you can tame the bull...you can ride it for a while. Lamborghinis have gotten better at being tame, way better, but they will always have the blood of being widow makers on their hands. The Aventador and Huracan make Lamborghini proud.

 

[B80]

Lamborghini's badge is a prancing bull. Their entire brand is making cars that can and will kill you. But if you can tame the bull...you can ride it for a while. Lamborghinis have gotten better at being tame, way better, but they will always have the blood of being widow makers on their hands. The Aventador and Huracan make Lamborghini proud.

agree, but it went too far imo. driving it fairly cautiously you'd still be all over the shop in that previous gt, which isn't a true reflection. obviously if you were hammering it, thats another story. 'normal' rich people have been driving them for decades. I assume most of them didn;t have severe crashes?

 

[FordGTGuy]

You're talking about the hairpin I assume, where my lowest speed was 28 mph. Let's take in account the circumstances: it's a MR car with 250 HP, in the wet through a hairpin. In contrast, an F1 car takes a hairpin in the dry going 35 mph. If we look at it that way, 28 mph seems very realistic.

I was talking about accelerating or even trying to turn slightly left or right; not the hairpin. The hairpin was worse.

C'mon guys, they raced 400-500 HP MR deathtraps in the rain in the 60s and didn't have this much trouble.

I don't understand people defending how RWD cars basically have no traction in this game. Many sports and supercars didn't even have TC and they were dangerous to drive but they didn't have such insane traction issues.

 

[BolverkGTM]

agree, but it went too far imo. driving it fairly cautiously you'd still be all over the shop in that previous gt, which isn't a true reflection. obviously if you were hammering it, thats another story. 'normal' rich people have been driving them for decades. I assume most of them didn;t have severe crashes?

Rich people survive long enough to become rich. They won't let their precious investment be an abrupt end to that, typically.

I'm not talking about hammering cars on tracks either. But if you stepped into the M4 in this game and drove it fairly normally, you;d think you;d have to be some kind of pro driver to handle one in day to day driving, which is fair from the truth.

The sense of speed on a screen versus the sense of speed in actual motion can deceive you into thinking wrongly about certain vehicles. If you can't feel what the car is telling you through what's happening to your five senses, you're almost begging to drive faster and faster until you crash. That's the fun of racing sims and stuff.

 

[B80]

Rich people survive long enough to become rich. They won't let their precious investment be an abrupt end to that, typically.

The sense of speed on a screen versus the sense of speed in actual motion can deceive you into thinking wrongly about certain vehicles. If you can't feel what the car is telling you through what's happening to your five senses, you're almost begging to drive faster and faster until you crash. That's the fun of racing sims and stuff.

yeah agree with sense of speed. in game sometimes feels like barely moving, when doing higher speeds.

not sure what you mean by rich comment? high test sportsmen, investment bankers, film stars etc have all owned them at different ages. I can't imagine a young footballer, basketball player, mma fighter drives them below the speed limit and defensively at all times.

 

[BolverkGTM]

yeah agree with sense of speed. in game sometimes feels like barely moving, when doing higher speeds.

not sure what you mean by rich comment? high test sportsmen, investment bankers, film stars etc have all owned them at different ages.

Bit of hyperbole on that comment. But you get the idea. People that own those machines are either respecting them or are well aware of what they're capable of doing and harness it.

I don't understand people defending how RWD cars basically have no traction in this game. Many sports and supercars didn't even have TC and they were dangerous to drive but they didn't have such insane traction issues.

I'll admit that feeling comfort softs suddenly act like tissue paper kind of annoyed me when driving the 180SX for the first time, but hey....we got access to better tire compounds these days.

 

[fortbo]

While I appreciate the suggestion for in-game purposes, it is quite ridiculous how unrealistic wet driving is.

I did the license test with the modern Alpine and I couldn't even turn at 35 mph without my car trying to go sideways. I'd hate to see highways while it's raining in the GT universe... lol.

Honestly, I feel like the dry condition physics on RWD cars are closer to driving in the rain; the game needs a boost to traction in general.

I'm all gold up to IA-8; so I feel as if I have a bit of a foot to stand on with this.

Depending on the track, the wet weather driving is actually pretty realistic. Depending on the surface and track conditions, it can be super treacherous especially when you’re not on full wets. Mid Ohio as an example feels like you’re literally on ice when I raced in the wet there, but other tracks have more grip. I think it has to do with a lot of factors like how much rubber is laid down and the track conditions though. Wet driving on any race track though will generally feel more slippery compared to just being on a public road because of the amount of rubber laid down.

 

[barak181]

To those who have driven high performance cars in real life (including me): it's not so easy to make direct comparisons. Yes, those who have real life track experience (including me), or those who have overdriven their road car (including me), have a good sense of what feels right or wrong. However, that experience does not translate 100% to a game because we armchair racers have likely never pushed the limit in real life, besides the few people who have posted here that do track racing as a hobby.

Besides 32 years of driving experience, 11 in North America and 21 in South America where I had some hairy but inconsequential moments on the same gravel stages present in the WRC, I had the pleasure of driving a Ferrari 488 GTB on a racetrack. My real world + sim racing knowledge helped me immensely to attack the track in that beast, but I knew I was leaving massive amounts of time on the table. There were two forces holding me back: the physical abuse that the g-forces were causing, and the very real threat of death or serious injury. Those are two things you will never be able to model in a racing sim.

I do believe that some of the RWD cars are too skittish, however it is extremely difficult for most of us with real-world experience to make a valid comparison while invoking the caveat "I drove x car and this kind of stuff doesn't happen". There is a world of variables such as tires, assist settings, driving style and atmospheric conditions, not to mention the fact that a lot of people (including me) are not pushing the limit in their real world car no matter how brave they think they are.

My Ferrari instructor would not allow me to take the car out of sport mode which is the mode that has minimal TC and ABS; it was made clear that if I turned off assists the car was stopped and my session was immediately finished.

In a nutshell, if you don't have the balls to take your real car and crash it while pushing the limit you also don't have the authority to say "x or y car shouldn't step out in z situation". There are a precious few human beings on this planet that have been on the limit in the cars we drive in videogame car simulators. We don't know jack. We like to think we know, but we don't. Because g-forces and the threat of death hold us back in real life. So no matter what car we own in real life I doubt many of us here have ever driven that car to its true limits.

Gran Turismo has always been oversteery and the more I play GT7 the more I accept that. It's been like this since day one in 1997. Let's just get over this and move on before PD ruins the physics because a bunch of armchair racers (including me) can't stop whining.

So, what you're saying is we need Lando Norris to chime in with his opinion on GT7 physics...

 

[kilesa4568]

they were correct I had ver.30 when ver.34 was the updated firmware… which switch the wheel to PS5 mode

I doubled checked mine this morning and it said V33 was the latest but after I updated the PC software, it finally saw V34 as an update.

No noticeable change for me on the PS4 though. Plenty of understeer rattle like before but still zero feel when the rear breaks loose.

Anyone else on the same T300-PS4 combo as me?

 

[BolverkGTM]

So, what you're saying is we need Lando Norris to chime in with his opinion on GT7 physics...

Would pay to see Lando Norris yell at Jimmy Broadbent on stream again. 🤣

"JIMMYYYY!" lives in my head rent free.

 

[sejtur]

I was talking about accelerating or even trying to turn slightly left or right; not the hairpin. The hairpin was worse.

C'mon guys, they raced 400-500 HP MR deathtraps in the rain in the 60s and didn't have this much trouble.

I don't understand people defending how RWD cars basically have no traction in this game. Many sports and supercars didn't even have TC and they were dangerous to drive but they didn't have such insane traction issues.

Do you have a source about this? I think it must have been very hard to turn, as they had even more narrow tires.

We need someone who did this IRL to tell if it's realistic or not in the wet. In another thread, fortbo who drives a AMG GT IRL on track said that it feels very similar, talking about dry weather I suppose.

 

[Scaff]

C'mon guys, they raced 400-500 HP MR deathtraps in the rain in the 60s and didn't have this much trouble.

And they drove them much slower than you think, while babying the throttle and shortshifting.

 

[fortbo]

And they drove them much slower than you think, while babying the throttle and shortshifting.

Exactly, you’d be surprised how slow to have to drive a car in the wet a times. It was even easy to spin out the Audi I raced in the wet going as slow as 30 in some areas if you’re not driving properly. I’m not saying the physics I’m GT7 are perfect by any means, there’s still a few flaws for sure, but they’re definitely a massive step in the right direction compared to GTS. I can’t speak much on the GT3’s since I’ve never raced one of those (hopefully someday) but the road car physics definitely feel quite a bit improved. Although the GT3 car physics definitely feel closer to ACC and from what I’ve heard, that’s one of the most realistic sim’s for those cars.

 

[Seikenfreak]

I've got maybe a dozen track days under my belt so far in a couple different cars and I think the game is doing a fairly good job in the handling department. It's an improvement over Sport for sure. And driving in the wet can absolutely be like driving on ice.

I had my '03 (Mustang) Mach 1 at an HPDE where it was pouring rain. Went out with the instructor and the car (with not-so-great sporty but old 275 tires out front, 315s in the rear) was skating around even going 30-40MPH. It was so not-fun to drive. The car would understeer on corner exit on this one slow, tight, bowled corner and the instructor kept grabbing the wheel and turning it and getting annoyed at me saying "You can't feel it?!" (a big no-no in my opinion..) but nah I couldn't feel anything in wheel or my butt when I was exiting that turn. That car wasn't exactly some nice track car though. I actually left the event after that one session because it was an entirely unpleasant experience. Driving super slow around the track, cold, with the windows down blowing in rain, and constantly feeling like the car was going to spin out, hit a wall, and total the car. All the instructors and track rats of course say its the best time to learn car control and were very excited for the rain.

At a later date though, I ran the main course there in the rain and I think I had R888 275 tires square setup on it at that point and I was having a blast. Still went like 110 down the straight in the wet which was maybe a bad idea. Was also awesome to see the dry line form and be able to pick up the pace.

I think a lot of people don't quite understand that what they are doing on their (usually) controller isn't quite what you do in real life. The throttle and brake isn't some tiny lever or button so you have much more nuanced control. Even with a steering wheel, you aren't getting the sense of g-force. You're almost never going full throttle through corners (depending on car of course) in a RWD car. Plenty of people are handling this game and these cars with just the controller so, to be honest, it's probably driver error. People need to practice being gentle and smooth. Smooth is fast.

Anyway, GT7 is a lot of fun.

 

[FordGTGuy]

Do you have a source about this? I think it must have been very hard to turn, as they had even more narrow tires.

We need someone who did this IRL to tell if it's realistic or not in the wet. In another thread, fortbo who drives a AMG GT IRL on track said that it feels very similar, talking about dry weather I suppose.

Again, I'm talking specifically about low horsepower cars at low speeds, not even tight corners.

 

[Moglet]

I'm fine with the wet racing physics being slippery as they would be in real life but the AI should at least react like they're driving on the same surface. Earlier on I was driving a 4WD car round Suzuka and was about 6 seconds in the lead when it started to rain. So I bumped up the TCS to 3 and was being as smooth as I can with the pad - I never lost control, just got a little twitchy now and then. Meanwhile the 2nd place AI controlled RWD car on the same tyres (on Normal difficulty) was catching up to me at a pace of 3 seconds per lap. This is the same AI car that was previously going super slow through corners in the dry and braking when it didn't need to. Something doesn't feel right.

 

[super_gt]

Anti-Roll bars set to 10, front and rear makes oversteer at the corner exit more gradual/enjoyable with rear wheel drive cars.

 

[Pfei]

I think a lot of people don't quite understand that what they are doing on their (usually) controller isn't quite what you do in real life.

Besides that there are a whole bunch more variables in games that we don't have in real life:

• Platform: while not nearly as big of a variable as it is on PC, the game is playable on three different consoles and things like frame drops can affect the physics but from what I hear even the base PS4 is pretty solid.
• Controller users: stick or dpad or gyro for turning; stick or R2/L2 or cross/square for braking and acceleration.
• Wheel users: brand, quality and FFB settings. Sometimes people use wrong FFB settings which satisfies them personally but interferes with the physics engine.
• Television: believe it or not this is the most critical component. An inadequate or incorrectly configured TV can introduce latency which interferes with the output from the physics engine.
• Player ability: obviously a big variable.
• Player background: another huge variable. Are you new to sim racing? Are you coming from iRacing and rFactor 2? Are you coming from GTS? Do you race in real life? Were you expecting GT7 to be a game or a sim? All of us have different things we want to get out of this game and we have different expectations of it depending on the peculiarities of each of our's past and present.

There will never be consensus on this issue. Just go to Race Department and check out the fire storms that break out over every racing sim.

 

[JDMKING13]

I doubled checked mine this morning and it said V33 was the latest but after I updated the PC software, it finally saw V34 as an update.

No noticeable change for me on the PS4 though. Plenty of understeer rattle like before but still zero feel when the rear breaks loose.

Anyone else on the same T300-PS4 combo as me?

I use it… is your led also red for PlayStation 5 mode make sure it is.

 

[traind]

To those who have driven high performance cars in real life (including me): it's not so easy to make direct comparisons. Yes, those who have real life track experience (including me), or those who have overdriven their road car (including me), have a good sense of what feels right or wrong. However, that experience does not translate 100% to a game because we armchair racers have likely never pushed the limit in real life, besides the few people who have posted here that do track racing as a hobby.

Besides 32 years of driving experience, 11 in North America and 21 in South America where I had some hairy but inconsequential moments on the same gravel stages present in the WRC, I had the pleasure of driving a Ferrari 488 GTB on a racetrack. My real world + sim racing knowledge helped me immensely to attack the track in that beast, but I knew I was leaving massive amounts of time on the table. There were two forces holding me back: the physical abuse that the g-forces were causing, and the very real threat of death or serious injury. Those are two things you will never be able to model in a racing sim.

I do believe that some of the RWD cars are too skittish, however it is extremely difficult for most of us with real-world experience to make a valid comparison while invoking the caveat "I drove x car and this kind of stuff doesn't happen". There is a world of variables such as tires, assist settings, driving style and atmospheric conditions, not to mention the fact that a lot of people (including me) are not pushing the limit in their real world car no matter how brave they think they are.

My Ferrari instructor would not allow me to take the car out of sport mode which is the mode that has minimal TC and ABS; it was made clear that if I turned off assists the car was stopped and my session was immediately finished.

In a nutshell, if you don't have the balls to take your real car and crash it while pushing the limit you also don't have the authority to say "x or y car shouldn't step out in z situation". There are a precious few human beings on this planet that have been on the limit in the cars we drive in videogame car simulators. We don't know jack. We like to think we know, but we don't. Because g-forces and the threat of death hold us back in real life. So no matter what car we own in real life I doubt many of us here have ever driven that car to its true limits.

Gran Turismo has always been oversteery and the more I play GT7 the more I accept that. It's been like this since day one in 1997. Let's just get over this and move on before PD ruins the physics because a bunch of armchair racers (including me) can't stop whining.

There is a lot here I agree with and it is a well written post. At the same time, many of us do have enough experience, both real life and sim, to understand what the limit should feel like. I agree with your comments about real world cars and track days but I have done track days on some tracks where there is ample runoff room so you feel more comfortable going to the limit when there is no immediate wall to hit and no gravel trap either. So yes, I have spun my car at 80 mph on a track day by not catching it quick enough. I have also had the pleasure of doing skidpad work in multiple cars on both dry and wet skidpads (more wet than dry though). On top of that, this at the limit feel and degree of progressive control of the tire model has been debated in other sims for many years. IRacing in particular, lol. The iRacing tire model is quite grippy and pretty progressive at this point but for 5+ years or so it was known as Ice Racing, lol. The debate raged in the forums all that time and many pro racers have weighed in both then and now.

GT7 now feels a bit like iRacing used to. Overall, I think PD has taken a firm step toward simulation and I am very pleased with it. But I think it is actually pretty obvious they need to slightly dial down the propensity for snap oversteer on rear drive cars and increase the progressive feel of the tires at the limit. They've moved in the right direction and I applaud them for it; they just have to keep tweaking the model and I think they will.

 

[Seikenfreak]

I just hope they don't change it. Maybe barely tweak it. I remember people complaining about Sport when that released. I can't remember if they were saying it was too hard to what, but they released a patch soon after and it felt like everything was way more glued to the road. That was a long time ago so maybe I'm misremembering it.

People are always asking for more realism but seem to complain when it's too difficult for them. And I'm guessing they also won't use the assists because they don't believe they need them 🤷‍♂️

Just keep playing and practicing. Work on your own abilities before jumping to the conclusion that the entire game is broken.

 

[kilesa4568]

I use it… is your led also red for PlayStation 5 mode make sure it is.

I'm on the PS4 (gave up chasing PS5's).

I've got 6 years on a wheel and golded the first 4 licenses but every FR test was a real fight. To be honest, if this physics is as intended, this game isn't for me. It'll kill me!

 

[Fredzy]

I haven't spent a ton of time in more powerful cars yet, but I'm definitely finding myself displeased by the at-limit grip/slip physics. TLDR is it's oddly slippery.

GT Sport physics weren't too wonky to me, but I was put off by the at-limit physics. It seemed like when you tried to dance around the limit, you would often get a quick shot of punitive snap oversteer. This was mostly evident in GT3 cars for me. It would rarely cause any real problem (the game really didn't want people crashing, it seemed) but would sort of suddenly slow the car down in weird way and penalize you a few tenths on the lap time. This was frustrating because it discouraged working many cars at the limit. To be fair, I think this was as far back as 2017 and I never really came back to it so it could have changed a lot and I just sound crazy. One final relevant note on GTS - in the last year I've played it a lot but only lower power road cars - cars I like/want but can't get in AC (main sim I've played since 2017) aside from mods. For these cars, I always felt sports tires were way too grippy in GTS. SH tires would put my favorite 200-400hp cars on rails and hide away their characteristics, make them not as fun. CS tires seemed to bring the cars to a level that reflected their real world performance on a track too, I felt.

Anyhow, GT7. I'm at menu 12 or 13 now. Everything is fine at lower power and some of the quicker license test cars, nothing amiss. Just lots of forgiveness when overcooking it into corners and understeering. Then I did one of these clubman+ races. Wow, not handing me the win on a platter? Cool! I started having flashbacks to some of my favorite racing ever - 500pp Quick Match races in GT6! So I finally start playing with tuning so I can actually compete there and whoa, the car is sliding around like its on ice. SH.. then SM.. then SS tires, 275hp/2700lb GR86 - I could almost never be WOT with any steering angle without losing it. 215lb-ft or so.. not exactly a torque monster.. confused. I need to spend more time with this for sure, but I have started to put my finger on what I think I'm feeling.

My working theory at the moment is that instead of the safe but conspicuous punishment that GTS doled out when exceeding the limit (the aforementioned snap oversteer/grip/recover/speed penalty sub-routine) GT7 applies a sort of Forza Horizon drift mode effect to the car around the limit. Like, I'm sliding? Ok, it's easy enough to control but.. I really don't think I should be sliding. I use T300RS, an OK wheel, and I'm getting very little indication that I'm exceeding grip threshold from any of my senses. The car just starts to rotate slightly and revs start to climb a little too fast (wheels spinning) and it's just weird. I'm getting put off pretty hard by it but I'm reserving that it's possibly something going on with tuning (though it's definitely not just tuned cars) or can be band-aided with diffs. I haven't messed with them at all yet.

When I got sick of dealing with this sliding, I turned on TC. This had a surprisingly huge effect on it. I really don't think it should have, particularly a sub 300hp car with SS tires. I have barely messed with rain, and am certain I won't unless I have to.

 

[Fredzy]

I'm on the PS4 (gave up chasing PS5's).

I've got 6 years on a wheel and golded the first 4 licenses but every FR test was a real fight. To be honest, if this physics is as intended, this game isn't for me. It'll kill me!

Oh man, I must not have comprehended your first post on this page, and it hit me reading this one. Seems we're experiencing the same thing. I'll have to look into this as well.

And I even mentioned GT6 QM, which I recall scrapping with you a lot in there way back when! Good times.