Gran Turismo 7 Physics

[Lord Protector]

Who is advocating tire physics? Members and I have stated many times the physics are not perfect by no means but they are in the right direction.. while some are having difficulty driving some people aren’t.

Unlike others I don’t base GT7 off of my favorite game in which people seemed to be doing with GTS… GTS was my favorite game, but when it came to pure driving it could not come close to AC… My wife who doesn’t play any of these games after trying both said GTS looks great but AC felt more natural and realistic to her. AC on the console is the best pure driving game.. I think ACC is even better but it’s only GT cars so AC is a better comparison. If you compare GT7 to AC while AC is still better in the physics department GT7 has gone in the right direction and with the GT package also included I am loving this game.

Did you also use TC on the launch?

Some people are advocating it, saying it's totally fine and those having trouble can't manage the game's difficulty

And yes, I always use TC when launching a car, as everyone else who wants to have a decent grid start.

 

[JDMKING13]

Some people are advocating it, saying it's totally fine and those having trouble can't manage the game's difficulty

And yes, I always use TC when launching a car, as everyone else who wants to have a decent grid start.

I was saying so more to mimic some type of launch control 😂. I still feel as it’s a learning curve to get over… if we took people who normally play GTS and never played AC it would be the same thing… the difference is we were all expecting GT7 to be similar to GTS and that’s not the case.. it went into the direction of AC. It’s not there yet but it’s going in that direction.

 

[mattikake]

But... in IRL you absolutely can mash the throttle on many of these road cars that we're discussing... I can do it on an RX8 in corners on semi slicks. And I can't in GT7.

And you also won't reach real life 0-100kmh (0-60mph) in any RWD car. Same goes for 300hp+ AWD cars, which is even more ridiculous.

Some of you advocating these tire physics should do a simple test. Take a car of your liking, don't put on freaking racing tyres and try launching it 0-100kmh (0-60mph). You can find real life car data here. I tried Ferrari 458 Italia last night and the best time I've done was about 5 seconds!!! Real life: 3.4.

(Easiest method to try this are one of those drag race missions, just launch the car, wait till it hits the speed you want and pause the game.)

Is that on circuit tarmac?

I've taken my car to donnington on a track day. Warm and sunny. It was wheel spinning to the top of 4th. On ANY road, even a cold day, it only struggles for traction until mid 2nd gear max.

(R888's)

And where a the torque steer in GT7? I haven't seen any of that yet in fwd cars. If anything it's too forgiving

 

[FordGTGuy]

Some people are advocating it, saying it's totally fine and those having trouble can't manage the game's difficulty

And yes, I always use TC when launching a car, as everyone else who wants to have a decent grid start.

I've come to the conclusion that you basically need to use hard sport tires with TC on in order to even compete in online lobbies.

The PP you lose from having soft sport tires, combined with a harder to control car puts you at an insane disadvantage in speed and control.

I do find it funny that TC offers better traction with much more horsepower with worse tires than tires that are supposed to have much better traction.

 

[///M3]

To be fair, at some point you just have to admit there is no such thing as real physics but gameplay choices, all the data and modelling in the world doesn’t add the sense of inherent danger/risk which influences at least my perception of how it feels.

 

[///M3]

Is that on circuit tarmac?

I've taken my car to donnington on a track day. Warm and sunny. It was wheel spinning to the top of 4th. On ANY road, even a cold day, it only struggles for traction until mid 2nd gear max.

(R888's)

My current M140 with TC/DSC would put me in a ditch if i mashed anything mid corner….even with aids on it still feels ready to snap at any time when “making progress….”

 

[FordGTGuy]

People keep mentioning "circuit tarmac" but how much of a traction difference are you noticing between Tokyo Expressway and an actual race track? I am honestly not noticing much of a difference at all.

 

[xMAXIx79]

But... in IRL you absolutely can mash the throttle on many of these road cars that we're discussing... I can do it on an RX8 in corners on semi slicks. And I can't in GT7.

Funny, your car seems to be able to do everything, but it doesn't work in the game...

Well, with my BMW I couldn't just step on the gas in a curve without switched off helpers like TCS, that would have ended very quickly off the road. But that was "only" a tuned diesel.

 

[JDMKING13]

My current M140 with TC/DSC would put me in a ditch if i mashed anything mid corner….even with aids on it still feels ready to snap at any time when “making progress….”

I had a mid 2000 3 series nothing special good power six speed… bro I thought I was In GT.. turn of the DSC I believe… as soon I felt the rear slide out a little bit off of little bit of throttle I said nope! Put it right back on lol! I don’t know how many would drive their car with no electronic help and push like you were in GT.

 

[Lord Protector]

People keep mentioning "circuit tarmac" but how much of a traction difference are you noticing between Tokyo Expressway and an actual race track? I am honestly not noticing much of a difference at all.

Exactly. Is there any difference at all? I doubt it.

Is that on circuit tarmac?

I've taken my car to donnington on a track day. Warm and sunny. It was wheel spinning to the top of 4th. On ANY road, even a cold day, it only struggles for traction until mid 2nd gear max.

(R888's)

And where a the torque steer in GT7? I haven't seen any of that yet in fwd cars. If anything it's too forgiving

Must be an old asphalt. Slovakia Ring feels even more grippier then our roads it's really rubberry, especially the driving line.

 

[mattikake]

People keep mentioning "circuit tarmac" but how much of a traction difference are you noticing between Tokyo Expressway and an actual race track? I am honestly not noticing much of a difference at all.

True but maybe for ease of programming every track is considered a circuit. Spa and Mt. Panorama are public roads that are now circuits with circuit tarmac. Who knows?

 

[Lord Protector]

Funny, your car seems to be able to do everything, but it doesn't work in the game...

Well, with my BMW I couldn't just step on the gas in a curve without switched off helpers like TCS, that would have ended very quickly off the road. But that was "only" a tuned diesel.

No it's not like that. It's a low torque car with a really good LSD and suspension, what else is there to say? You're talking about 'only' a tuned BMW diesel car, with likely much less weight in the rear. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? How much torque does it have anyway?

 

[FordGTGuy]

Getting everyone in this thread together for a real track day would be the most hilarious thing ever.

 

[Scaff]

OK then try a car without a launch control Like a Viper GTS '02.

OK, do you want the bad news with that one as well (and any manual car).

When 0-60 times are generated, no concern for the wellbeing of the car is made (I know this as I've done it), and to get a 0-60 time you always flat shift.

It's crap for the entire drivetrain, but it gets you to 60 quicker, PD has nerfed the clutch in GT, so we can't flat shift, so you will never match the 0 - 60 times for any manual car.

That's before you get into the myriad of other factors that make both 0 - 60 and lap times poor measures to use for the accuracy of a physics model.

And, that's without discussing the fact that OEM's have press car preparation teams for a reason, and let's just say that some cars that go out to the press are very good examples of that specific model!

 

[///M3]

Getting everyone in this thread together for a real track day would be the most hilarious dangerous thing ever.

Fixed that for you

 

[D_Dragline]

So I just got access to my first Ferrari and I think MR car? Got the F430 in that card prize.

Is it just me or does this thing behave completely different than everything else I've driven? It exhibits zero sense of weight transfer. There is almost no feedback in the wheel. And it's incredibly easy and fast to drive. I can just mash the throttle or brake like it's GT Sport.

I feel like I'm going crazy. All I did was slap a bunch of parts on it and adjusted it down to 700PP. And do some blind tweaks to the suspension before even driving the car. Racing softs. Catalunya circuit Ferrari race.

Would appreciate someone else's feedback. @Scaff have you tried an MR car yet? Are they all like this? It's amazing but also feels like it's from a different game.

I can post more detailed setup info if someone wants to go deeper. Not sure how the stock car handles.

Edit: The front of the car is doing a wheelie over the crest into the fast downhill at Maggiore at 160mph. I can't recall this happening to me in Sport? The car drive like it's on rails. I'm actually not going to post the specs in case it's a bug somehow. I'll wait for someone else to say MR cars handle like this or I can send Scaff the deets if he's curious.

Edit2: Okay, after driving the stock 458 on Racing Softs, I'm confident in saying it's just the MR platform or high end MR cars only maybe. Or Ferraris specifically. So not really a bug but for all the people talking about RWD being hard to handle, I'd be curious to hear their thoughts on these. Not because it's RWD but because the cars barely exhibit that body roll weight sensation and traction loss but drive like a GT Sport Gr4 car out of the box.

If you think it’s MR cars in general can I encourage you to try the Deep Forest Circuit Experience challenge in the Grouo 3 R8? I think you’ll change your mind pretty quickly.

 

[///M3]

That's before you get into the myriad of other factors that make both 0 - 60 and lap times poor measures to use for the accuracy of a physics model.

To be fair they take a real world lap time bench mark and then have to create gameplay to match that as the baseline (maybe across a range of performance cars tbf) so you work your physics model back from that was how I understood it but I could be very wrong I appreciate that.

 

[JDMKING13]

Getting everyone in this thread together for a real track day would be the most hilarious thing ever.

I suggested we all get the same car and do at least a 15 min session… I would love to watch that replay!

 

[Scaff]

To be fair they take a real world lap time bench mark and then have to create gameplay to match that as the baseline (maybe across a range of performance cars tbf) so you work your physics model back from that was how I understood it but I could be very wrong I appreciate that.

Which says nothing for the accuracy of a title's physics.

People could accurately match real-world lap times in GT4, which doesn't make its physics engine or tyre model accurate.

 

[Lord Protector]

OK, do you want the bad news with that one as well (and any manual car).

When 0-60 times are generated, no concern for the wellbeing of the car is made (I know this as I've done it), and to get a 0-60 time you always flat shift.

It's crap for the entire drivetrain, but it gets you to 60 quicker, PD has nerfed the clutch in GT, so we can't flat shift, so you will never match the 0 - 60 times for any manual car.

That's before you get into the myriad of other factors that make both 0 - 60 and lap times poor measures to use for the accuracy of a physics model.

And, that's without discussing the fact that OEM's have press car preparation teams for a reason, and let's just say that some cars that go out to the press are very good examples of that specific model!

OK, fair enough. How about this though? Pick a RWD car of your liking. Stop the car and do not rev it. Now fully press the accelerator. The car will lose traction instantly and start hitting the rev limiter with spinning tyres. Surely, there's no justification for this from you

 

[xMAXIx79]

No it's not like that. It's a low torque car with a really good LSD and suspension, what else is there to say? You're talking about 'only' a tuned BMW diesel car, with likely much less weight in the rear. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? How much torque does it have anyway?

E91 with almost 600 Nm of torque.

But I don't drive it anymore, I ended up with Cupra a while ago.

 

[///M3]

Which says nothing for the accuracy of a title's physics.

People could accurately match real-world lap times in GT4, which doesn't make its physics engine or tyre model accurate.

Just playing devils advocate and then I will stop....but isn't that the definition of an accurate physics model in a game, you achieve close to real world results in a virtual one?

Adding more variables just adds more authenticity to the experience, not sure it makes it better or worse those.

Sorry just musing about things. Ignore me.

 

[Lord Protector]

E91 with almost 600 Nm of torque.

But I don't drive it anymore, I ended up with Cupra a while ago.

You rest my case.

(I think your browser auto-translates webpages, I'm not writing in German)

 

[xMAXIx79]

You rest my case.

(I think your browser auto-translates webpages, I'm not writing in German)

sorry just edit it.

 

[Lord Protector]

sorry just edit it.

So you surely understand the difference here. My car with under 200Nm, with semi-slicks can't spin out in corners unless I'd be really stupid with my inputs. Yours? I'm sure it can.

 

[NikNakTobasco]

I suggested we all get the same car and do at least a 15 min session… I would love to watch that replay!

MX5s all round 😆

 

[RacingFan1]

As @Scaff has explained, this is normal behavior. You can tune it out but it won't make you faster. Anyone who learned how to drive FF cars in GTS need to re-learn them now because they behave more realistically.

What do you mean by normal behavior?
Pretty sure IRL some of those FF cars understeer when braking hard instead of oversteer. I have tested some myself, I have a Golf.

 

[szejok666]

Unfortunately in case of physics this game has some serious problems.

Little background:
I haven't been playing GT Sport (I switched to Forza Motorsport at that time underwhelmed by car list and online-focus), but I played all previous GT games from the beginning and spent countless hours with them.
For many years it was the only game series that really mattered to me. I've been waiting for GT7 and I'm very disappoited, mainly because of physics.

Here's what's wrong in my opinion:

• As stated here before, behaviour of RWD cars is unacceptable. Front end feel is great (best I've encountered in any racing game - but only at higher speeds), but grip progression in general is just plain broken. It becomes most evident in High-powered cars RWD cars, but can be also seen in 4WD cars (Driving Mission at Tokyo Expressway in NISMO GT-R - it spins all 4 wheels at corner exit even in 2 gear). When car starts sliding - it's over - it feels like it's on ice. Even cars that put power down extremely well in real life (like f. e. Mustang GT350R - according to Randy Pobst ) become pretty much undrivable even at low speeds. Gran Turismo since 3 always had problem with realistic longitudinal grip, but here it's completely over the top. At this moment game is completely unplayable for me - I feel like I'm fighting game mechanics, instead of my skills and limitations. I tried to fix this with LSD settings, but probem is deeper than that. Driving on the edge of grip is very hard/impossible even in slow cars like first MX-5 or S13 Silvia, not to mention anything with more than 200bhp. Changing tires to SH/SM/SS only makes them react more violently.
• Weight transfer also feels a bit off - it feels somehow limited (hard to throw a car into a corner), at the same time it's very nervous and unstable. Feels like front of the car is completely disconnected from the rear.
• Handling at low speeds - sometimes steering angle won't increase, even when I'm slowing down to something like 30-40km/h, feels like steering suddenly blocks itself - car just won't turn more - most visible in FWD cars at tracks like Tsukuba.
• Braking - probably due to problems mentioned before it's inconsistent - sometimes I start braking at the same point at the same speed in the same conditions and outcome may vary mor than slightly.

For now GT7 goes back on the shelf until PD fixes this. This is no-go for me. Even Forza 7, which has it's own problems in terms of physics, feels more balanced and realistic at the moment. Not to mention engine sounds.
I only hope they won't fix GT7 like they fixed GT6 - throwing 0.60 toe-in to all cars as default. Job well done. But even despite that, I still think cars in GT6 drive mostly great and with right tires (CH/CM in most cars) can achieve very realistic lap times and behave pretty naturally. I've been playing it yesterday and realised I've forgotten, how great it is even after all these years, especially in comparison with GT7.

To sum up: Something is wrong in game mechanics, and I think it's more than one thing.

 

[Scaff]

OK, fair enough. How about this though? Pick a RWD car of your liking. Stop the car and do not rev it. Now fully press the accelerator. The car will lose traction instantly and start hitting the rev limiter with spinning tyres. Surely, there's no justification for this from you

None, but then I've not claimed it's without its faults, simply that it's overall more accurate than GTS was/is.

Just playing devils advocate and then I will stop....but isn't that the definition of an accurate physics model in a game, you achieve close to real world results in a virtual one?

Adding more variables just adds more authenticity to the experience, not sure it makes it better or worse those.

Sorry just musing about things. Ignore me.

Differences in ambient temperature, humidity, track surface degradation, what races have run recently, time of day, etc, etc.

All these factors can cause real-world lap times to differ significantly, and the longer the track, the more they differ. Lap times are a tricky enough comparison in reality alone, without trying to match all of those variables in a game (which you never will do). That's aside from people then 'fudging' game times to hit a specific target.

It would be great if it was a nice consistent and easily repeated variable, but it's just not, and as such a poor tool for judging physics accuracy.

 

[Mark folsom]

Unfortunately in case of physics this game has some serious problems.

Little background:
I haven't been playing GT Sport (I switched to Forza Motorsport at that time underwhelmed by car list and online-focus), but I played all previous GT games from the beginning and spent countless hours with them.
For many years it was the only game series that really mattered to me. I've been waiting for GT7 and I'm very disappoited, mainly because of physics.

Here's what's wrong in my opinion:

• As stated here before, behaviour of RWD cars is unacceptable. Front end feel is great (best I've encountered in any racing game - but only at higher speeds), but grip progression in general is just plain broken. It becomes most evident in High-powered cars RWD cars, but can be also seen in 4WD cars (Driving Mission at Tokyo Expressway in NISMO GT-R - it spins all 4 wheels at corner exit even in 2 gear). When car starts sliding - it's over - it feels like it's on ice. Even cars that put power down extremely well in real life (like f. e. Mustang GT350R - according to Randy Pobst ) become pretty much undrivable even at low speeds. Gran Turismo since 3 always had problem with realistic longitudinal grip, but here it's completely over the top. At this moment game is completely unplayable for me - I feel like I'm fighting game mechanics, instead of my skills and limitations. I tried to fix this with LSD settings, but probem is deeper than that. Driving on the edge of grip is very hard/impossible even in slow cars like first MX-5 or S13 Silvia, not to mention anything with more than 200bhp. Changing tires to SH/SM/SS only makes them react more violently.
• Weight transfer also feels a bit off - it feels somehow limited (hard to throw a car into a corner), at the same time it's very nervous and unstable. Feels like front of the car is completely disconnected from the rear.
• Handling at low speeds - sometimes steering angle won't increase, even when I'm slowing down to something like 30-40km/h, feels like steering suddenly blocks itself - car just won't turn more - most visible in FWD cars at tracks like Tsukuba.
• Braking - probably due to problems mentioned before it's inconsistent - sometimes I start braking at the same point at the same speed in the same conditions and outcome may vary mor than slightly.

For now GT7 goes back on the shelf until PD fixes this. This is no-go for me. Even Forza 7, which has it's own problems in terms of physics, feels more balanced and realistic at the moment. Not to mention engine sounds.
I only hope they won't fix GT7 like they fixed GT6 - throwing 0.60 toe-in to all cars as default. Job well done. But even despite that, I still think cars in GT6 drive mostly great and with right tires (CH/CM in most cars) can achieve very realistic lap times and behave pretty naturally. I've been playing it yesterday and realised I've forgotten, how great it is even after all these years, especially in comparison with GT7.

To sum up: Something is wrong in game mechanics, and I think it's more than one thing.

It's an arcade racer set to insane difficulty level. There's very little weight transfer and interia going on. Very little of any slip angle on the tires.

The reason people overlook it is for two reasons:

1) It has shiny cars.
2) They've been invested in it's release.


Just like the real race car driver who says iRacing and GT7 are both realistic. That's impossible. They couldn't be any different as far as physics go

Don't trust anything anyone says about realism. It doesn't matter who they are and what job they have. Trust yourself. And you did exactly that.