Gran Turismo 7 Physics

[Tenacious D]

I would think that basic QA for PD could entail a capable driver setting a good baseline setup for each car? (better yet, generate a few different default setups such as ACC, for different preferences). I find it baffling that there is so much blood and sweat poured onto the detailed audiovisual representation of the cars while the setups are left in the current state, in particular as I feel they have a much stronger impact on the cars than in previous GTs.

Wholeheartedly agree. Most of us aren't tuning savvy, myself included, and need help from the "pros" here. In fact, I should check out that tuning thread on here before I head off to race. PD should have tuning pros of their own which can offer a small menu of tunes for the cars with different tires, and different styles in mind. They could update these tunes along with each physics-involved patch they release.

I just hope that the whiners don't overwhelm the critics, and make PD afraid to offer us something very realistic. That would be a crying shame. I shouldn't worry, but... well, humans are human, and GT is a product for making money...

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Question: Is here any difference in reducing the power output with the ECU or Power Restrictor. They stack and sort of have the same effect. I do a bit of both to get as close as possible to the PP limit.

 

[wheelhp]

Question: Is here any difference in reducing the power output with the ECU or Power Restrictor. They stack and sort of have the same effect. I do a bit of both to get as close as possible to the PP limit.

I'd check the torque/hp curves. I'm guessing here, but it's usually better to use power restrictor? If there's no difference I'd be amazed in a kind of bad way

 

[HugoTwoWheels]

@Scaff
You shouldn't ever feel the vibration effects from under-/oversteer. If you do, you've gone way too far for what's optimal for speed/pace.
The FFB goes from scratchy/bumpy to totally smooth when you start sliding. If you continue pushing it starts vibrating.
I very rarely feel the vibration effect, except for when crashing. As soon as the wheel goes smooth, it's time to correct or back off - no need to wait for the vibration.

 

[Scaff]

@Scaff
You shouldn't ever feel the vibration effects from under-/oversteer. If you do, you've gone way too far for what's optimal for speed/pace.
The FFB goes from scratchy/bumpy to totally smooth when you start sliding. If you continue pushing it starts vibrating.
I very rarely feel the vibration effect, except for when crashing. As soon as the wheel goes smooth, it's time to correct or back off - no need to wait for the vibration.

On the T300 there is no 'smooth' and it shouldn't be smooth, it should be light, steering weight should reduce (due to a reduction in self-aligning torque as the tire's slip angle increases), and I've had that vibration occur at speeds that shouldn't be seeing understeer, let along tire-skip (the update has reduced that), which I assume it's (badly) attempting to communicate, just with a **** load of weight still on the steering that shouldn't be present.

This is exactly what the video is rightly and accurately raising an issue with, as can be seen from the example gough plot below, at peak grip (6degrees slip/770kgs lateral force in this example) the load on the steering wheel (Self Aligning Torque in N-m -= the force generated by a contact patch fighting to return to shape) has reduced by around 80% of its peak value, and done so suddenly. It's not smoothness, it's lightness we should be feeling.

What GT 7 is doing here is absurd, it allows for zero real-world transferable knowledge at all in this area, I have decades of muscle-memory that works perfectly well in every other sim in this regard and PD has basically just said, nah screw that.

 

[HugoTwoWheels]

On the T300 there is no 'smooth' and it shouldn't be smooth, it should be light, steering weight should reduce (due to a reduction in self-aligning torque as the tire's slip angle increases), and I've had that vibration occur at speeds that shouldn't be seeing understeer, let along tire-skip (the update has reduced that), which I assume it's (badly) attempting to communicate, just with a **** load of weight still on the steering that shouldn't be present.

This is exactly what the video is rightly and accurately raising an issue with, as can be seen from the example gough plot below, at peak grip (6degrees slip/770kgs lateral force in this example) the load on the steering wheel (Self Aligning Torque in N-m -= the force generated by a contact patch fighting to return to shape) has reduced by around 80% of its peak value, and done so suddenly. It's not smoothness, it's lightness we should be feeling.

View attachment 1124105

What GT 7 is doing here is absurd, it allows for zero real-world transferable knowledge at all in this area, I have decades of muscle-memory that works perfectly well in every other sim in this regard and PD has basically just said, nah screw that.

Yeah... That's not simulating in GT7, for sure. On a DD with the most transparent possible settings, it just goes perfectly smooth with a constant heaviness. It's like FFB dies and is replaced by a spring effect. This effect is very clear and obvious. I just view that area or border as a place not to go.

I'd love to try a T300 or G29 to see what the difference is.

 

[Scaff]

Yeah... That's not simulating in GT7, for sure. On a DD with the most transparent possible settings, it just goes perfectly smooth with a constant heaviness. It's like FFB dies and is replaced by a spring effect. This effect is very clear and obvious. I just view that area or border as a place not to go.

I'd love to try a T300 or G29 to see what the difference is.

It's a huge difference, and a failure on PDs part in two areas.

First they've rewritten how physics work in a nonsencially and gamified way, I hope that this is a bug and will be fixed quickly. As I can name arcade titles that get this fundamental right!

Second is that detail and fidelity on non DD wheels is perfectly possible, as other titles show, and they are giving the impression right now that they didn't bother with non DD wheels.

 

[Johnnn]

You're trying to make out like it's black and white when it's anything but. There's more nuance there than "is real" and "is not real".

It's just I asked people for a long time why are tires in ACC so strange. They said it's OK, it's my problem. And after some time, they completely changed the behavior. Maybe both were real but at least the change is very strange. I am happy, I like the game much more now. It's hard to believe same simulation of tires has so different behavior.

 

[Phaceless_Ph]

I've put this in the bugs thread, but should probably be mentioned in here, there's something going on with how the game is processing damper rebound that I think it's causing some of the weird physics issues with overly slidey road cars (which should have aerodynamic grip) and some cars being completely unstable on banked turns (e.g.: RX Vision GT3 on High Speed Ring, Ford GT road car on Route X).

Can't really explain how or why I think this is the case, but it feels like it's related to damper rebound.

 

[Maciaty]

In all honesty what you're describing is 'racecraft' and doesn't really fall into the physics side of things, it's possible in almost all racing titles, often regardless of the accuracy of the simulation. I just wish in GT it extended to the AI as well.

True on the AI part. But what Ive meant is that because the physics are more forgiving, then more people can focus on keeping the line and driving as fast as they can, and in return making those fun close races possible.
The fact that you don't exactly need to splurge on a steering wheel from the get go is also a plus - more players. Its not ideal on those "true" sims

Why can't they replicate them? It's possible, and other titles have to a greater or lesser degree, most do just opt for the Sport or Race mode, but AC and Project Cars (the first two) have done so and also tried to replicate the same types of TC and Stability Control the actual cars have.


These features are most certainly not just the preserve of PC titles, and while PC title often get more granualr options a lot of console titles get more in terms of these aeas than GT provides.

Yet its less and less possible with the amount of cars you get in each title. I know that a lot of the cars in GT7 are probably copies of each other, but in my opinion it would be a really big thing in the sim racing sim if gran turismo nailed all the cars.
In regards of the PC titles, correct me if Im wrong, but usually the FFB is on the weaker side with consoles, compared to their PC counterparts, no?
Theres more options with the drivers on PC, to even set up the wheel correctly

If mainstream titles on console such as WRC and F1 can offer adjustable FoV and FFB on console that include the kind of options you are refereeing to, then so can GT. After all AC, ACC and the first two Project Cars also offered these, Gran Turismo is arguable the outlier here.

True, that's why I think PD needs to step up in this department, especially if they're trying to do a more realistic sim this time around

GT 7 categorically could offer these kind of options, as I've mentioned about, plenty of console titles do. It's not a limitation of being a console title that stops PD doing so, it's a design choice by them.

And this is where Im a bit puzzled and I start thinking. Im wondering where Gran Turismo stops being Gran Turismo. The music, the menus, the physics, its all part of its charm.
If all of the racing sim developers suddenly came up with a physics engine so real, that everyone accepts - yes, this is what a real car feels like - then all of the games would be indistinguishable from themselves, apart of the graphics, sounds, content etc.
There are already games competing for the realest of them reals in the physics department, I can play them freely, but in the end, I would want GT to remain GT, with its quirks and charm and probably endless discussions about its physics and poor design choices ;D

 

[Lord Protector]

Wet weather is definitely more detail. No other game has the dynamics of a dry line developing over the course of the race, not to mention the varying level of grip depending on the amount of water on the surface.
Some were also commenting on the details of the curbs and contact patches of the tires being more than just binary.

Uhm… GT5 did, GT6 did, pCARS2 did and I’m sure many other hardcore sims do.

And by the way, the "dynamic" dry racing line in GT7 is a total scam. It’s completely pre-scriped, it doesn’t reflect the actual path that cars take, I tried this several times on several tracks.

 

[Lalalalala]

Just got gold for license test S6 with the mustang. Tried with no assist except low ABS (got gold in the same setting for all previous license tests) and was stuck at 1:16 (gold is 1:15). Got fed up and turned TCS to 2 and got 1:14.5 in 2 more tries (1.5s improvement). I felt like I cheated...

Bottom line is it realistic that we should always be playing with no assists? For some of these FR road cars I think the game is cheating us with no rear grip, and I feel like I have to turn on TCS to feel less cheated.

To me it's fairly obvious why mainly only road cars have this problem... The game treats them as having 0 aerodynamics downforce, and are solely relying on mechanical grip. Hence the backend easily slides around, especially if it gets lift up with bumps and whatnot.

 

[HarVee]

I still laugh at this:

What happened you may wonder? I put racing hards on a fully tuned FF car and braked hard going down that little hill into the first turn on the Nordscheliefe.

 

[kilesa4568]

Nothing unusual in that.

Man, that's funny. Made my day.

 

[graesand]

I still laugh at this:

What happened you may wonder? I put racing hards on a fully tuned FF car and braked hard going down that little hill into the first turn on the Nordscheliefe.

"The real driving simulator."

 

[JDMKING13]

997 and the Carrera are two of my favorite cars right now! The way you can attack turns it’s insane and the engine sounds is amazing. I haven’t drove all the cars yet but the cars I have driven I don’t know what’s better than the Porsches!

 

[Techlet]

Don't you see? GT7 physics are more realistic than AC. Of course cars do front flips on the ring. There's hundreds of cherry picked videos on Youtube to support my argument.

 

[xtro01]

Learn to tweak your own wheel setups instead of writing essays about car physics.

 

[JDMKING13]

Learn to tweak your own wheel setups instead of writing essays about car physics.

I seriously wouldn’t blame it on the wheel setup.. After almost two weeks of driving the cars are pretty easy to drive.. stock Road cars have to be respected a lot vs GTS and tuned/race cars in GT7. It no more throw the car in a corner and stomp on the gas.. the precision you have to have on the throttle honestly has been one of the best things in GT7… and every car is different… back to driving lol

 

[graesand]

Learn to tweak your own wheel setups instead of writing essays about car physics.

Dont need essays, a picture says more than a thousand words.

 

[xtro01]

Dont need essays, a picture says more than a thousand words.

A picture of what people pressing on the throttle 100% after a tight turn or before a bump. do it irl floor it (not on the open road)..

 

[JDMKING13]

A picture of what people pressing on the throttle 100% after a tight turn or before a bump. do it irl floor it (not on the open road)..

I have been asking people to post a lap and still nothing… so to me a lot of this is just talk… as I said anytime I have spun the car it was because of my throttle inputs… you go into a turn with the car unbalanced and try to gas it your going to upset the car.. these were absent sensation you get in GTS..

 

[kilesa4568]

A picture of what people pressing on the throttle 100% after a tight turn or before a bump. do it irl floor it (not on the open road)..

Not sure if serious...

 

[xtro01]

I have been asking people to post a lap and still nothing… so to me a lot of this is just talk… as I said anytime I have spun the car it was because of my throttle inputs… you go into a turn with the car unbalanced and try to gas it your going to upset the car.. these were absent sensation you get in GTS..

People are just lazy to learn anything they ask for realism and cry because they have to learn something new. The wheel spin on turn exit can be managed with lsd setup or right foot control... I doubt anyone here is flooring their real life cars throttle. most have electronic assists anyway. Throttle input is different from gts but you can manage it.. at least you can play with it when you need wheel spin. Lateral grip is very manageable in the game once you realize the game has very precise inputs just increase your rotation a bit. People spinning at high speeds and crying are just at the wrong steering angles turning twice as much as they should.. even when i see the god of sim jimmer shaking his wheel left and right 45 degrees im thinking he must be at 540 degrees of rotation. I beat s10 today and barely moved the wheel only small adjustments.. aquaplaning is really well done in this game btw.

 

[JDMKING13]

People are just lazy to learn anything they ask for realism and cry because they have to learn something new. The wheel spin on turn exit can be managed with lsd setup or right foot control... I doubt anyone here is flooring their real life cars throttle. most have electronic assists anyway. Throttle input is different from gts but you can manage it.. at least you can play with it when you need wheel spin. Lateral grip is very manageable in the game once you realize the game has very precise inputs just increase your rotation a bit. People spinning at high speeds and crying are just at the wrong steering angles turning twice as much as they should.. even when i see the god of sim jimmer shaking his wheel left and right 45 degrees im thinking he must be at 540 degrees of rotation. I beat s10 today and barely moved the wheel only small adjustments.. aquaplaning is really well done in this game btw.

Yes I have notice steering inputs play a huge role and again the steering is not the same a GTS you could turn your wheel a lot more and gas it and just understeer.. it’s terrible.. we gotta race our league races on GTS because GT7 online is just terrible right now and the driving is soo bad…

Also bro make sure you edit your post so you don’t have to double post… that’s a easy way to get the mods irritated 😂 I have done it a lot In this thread

 

[4everdelayed]

Ugh, played again this evening and I'm now 90% sure they changed the physics with the 1.06 update. I kept telling myself that it was all in my head but it just doesnt feel like the license tests on launch day anymore. The physics were fun right away, even on the simplest of tests, but now it seems it's just a stupid arcade understeer simulator again.

The cars all do that weird 4 wheel slide on corner entry if carrying a bit too much speed which is corrected with any amount of countersteering, doesnt matter how much, it will almost always sort itself out. GTS was like that too...

 

[graesand]

A picture of what people pressing on the throttle 100% after a tight turn or before a bump. do it irl floor it (not on the open road)..

Multiple examples of ppl in this thread who own X car IRL that vouch for unrealistic twitchiness and rwd nonsense behaviour in the game. Read it. I got the chance to hoon around in an NB 1.6 last summer. Fully stock, condition like new, completely overhauled for $$$$ and with stock size rims. The closest thing in game is the NA miata.

You think im lying to you when i say that thing will be on rails full throttle any gear irl? Try that in gt7 with just a hint of steering angle. Im not talking throwing it in a corner, im just saying keep a steady throttle and go through a corner. Its like they put massive toe out, or the ffb is off or whatever i dont know, ive tried anything i can think of and it still does my head in why on earth its so far from reality.

Considering a simulator is best at simulating when the feedback and physics are so close to real you should be able to intuitivly drive a car this is where gt7 fails in my opinion, and im not tlaking bout gt3 cars, obviously none of us drive those irl.
Irl the miata summer has been one of the best driving experiences ive had.
Ok i lied just a little there i could break the rear out in 1st on a parking lot. It was intentional and controllable. Hummm. Wierd. Controllable.. intuitive ... Wieeerd stuff...
Anyways you have to be a real bull to make a 1.6 miata act up and even then it will tell you before youve slipped your rears past 20deg.

This thread is getting boring and i dont have a problem driving other sims or driving irl either, thank god i have that option, like the FFB and physics irl are sooo good! GT7 is proving to be the most broken GT of all in its state now, the game mechanics outside of physics are even stranger haha so yeah atleast im happy i have other places to go just sad ppl really stand up for such a clearly broken and unfinished product.

Oh and i did some quick math what my venture into fully submersing myself into a new ps5, tv, simrig all kitted with fanatecs greatest and its in the same realm as a half decent miata so i think im happy with my shoddy t300 working on all other sims and start to bank for miata.... Just doesnt get realer than real.

/Rant

Edit: oh and the miata i drove had no tcs, only abs. The one in the game should have neither yet has both. Great simulating right there. I reckon i should have driver aids in a game to be able to drive like a car without them irl? Makes perfect sense....

 

[Johnnn]

@graesand, I have completely same experience. I can play anything but GT7. It's not a coincidence, I guess.

 

[Scaff]

People are just lazy to learn anything they ask for realism and cry because they have to learn something new.

I've spent over two and a half decades driving on tracks and proving grounds, if GT 7 is as realistic as claimed I shouldn't have to "learn" it, my existing muscle memory should work just fine (as it does with pretty much every other title on console and PC).

And yet...

Oh and stop using personal digs, the AUP is quite clear they are unacceptable.

 

[Firestone]

Nope (to it being best in any sim, which is a load of tripe). And Nope, I strongly suggest you actually watch and listen to what he says carefully before and after that timestamp I linked. Seems you might have glossed over the point he made.

I went so far as to put subtitles on, to ensure I was reading him correctly. And I stand by what I've found, which is exactly what he's said, lol. You might have to do the same and re-read him as it can be confusing when he's speaking so quickly.

I really don't know if you are really listening and understanding to what he says. He said the wet weather driving in GT7 is amazing and it isn't "a million percent realistic" in regards to the lines the AI are taking since they were taking the dry lines rather than the wet lines. At 11:19, I listened to what he was talking about a few times over and what he was saying before that time stamp and I remain correct. He was exemplifying that the cars in front cutting a path in the water allowed his car to have more grip. As soon as he got out front, that cut path was no longer there and he was struggling more for grip. He has been praising the wet weather the whole time he has been playing and said it is the best execution of any sim.
Even in previous video at Tsukuba in wet weather, he discovered he could steer lock his front tires to approach a corner that helps turn in which is a tactic that is used in karting irl. He just been saying the we weather driving has a ridiculous amount of detail.