Gran Turismo 7 Physics
- Thread starter Shingo_civic
- 6,197 comments
- 500,676 views
Progressive is the exact word I have been using. I love how you compare race cars with street cars in this regard and I fully agree with your conclusions. GT7 has advanced GT series physics markedly, in a good way if you are a sim racer. But it just has not gotten the progressive feel of a street car right. That one aspect was better in GT Sport. I don't know if the issue is the tires, the suspsension modeling or some other problem but I do know that an adjustment is called for if they want to get it right. That does not mean the title is not enjoyable. It means it needs to be improved. And that is not that surprising... most pc sims have needed physics improvements, tire model improvements etc.In comparison to GTS I agree.
Not even remotely close to being true. GT7's wet weather arguably looks better than anything else around, well it did until they nerfed the spray in the last update, and it's water on windscreen certainly isn't class leading either. However in terms of drying line, varying grip level, etc. Not only do a good number of other titles do that and have been doing so for years (PC and console), but they do so with more detail and accuracy.
GT 7 is running a single point tyre model, which while no bad thing on its own, can run into issues with curbs and surface changes, however we have a number of titles (on PC, just one on console) that are running 5 point contact patch models.
So I guess I need to roll this link out once again.
PHYSICS - Introducing the 5 point tyre model for ACC!
In modern computing, collision detection is still one of the most resource consuming operations a physics engine has to do. It needs to be very fast,...www.assettocorsa.net
Did you read that post fully before you decided to use a strawman argument?
At no point was it said that it's impossible to loose a car, simply that it's nothing like as easy as it is in GT7, but once again we have real-world experience being pushed aside in favour of confirmation bias.
Now I did watch it, just to see what's going on, and for the first ten incidents we have the following:
So based on a quick review of your video evidence it would seem that most accidents don't occur in the way they can with some road cars in GT 7.
- Out-braked themselves in a corner notorious for it
- Understeer
- Race car - not relevant to this, but they also out-braked themselves
- Race car - not relevant to this. but two cars off on the same corner in the same way? Most likely dropped oil or similar
- Understeer
- Offline in the wet
- Race car - not relevant to this, but blatantly unbalanced from ridding the curb
- Engine blowout
- Way to fast trying to keep pace with the 'vette, braked far too late and the curb didn't help either
- Can't actually see the start of the control loss so impossible to say
As it stands right now in GT 7 we have a situation in which race cars are more progressive on the limit than the majority of road cars. This runs counter to reality, as with stiffer suspension, less progressive tyres, lower ride-height, lower Polar Moment of Inertia, etc they have all the ingredients (and this isn't a subjective view, this is the objective laws of physics) that should make them less progressive over the limit than just about any road car.
I'm yet to see any of those saying that the snap oversteer we are finding in many road cars (many of them also cars known for being progressive in reality) is harder to manage than in race cars that should 100% be less progressive. The closest I've seen is some utter nonsense about soft suspension causing more load transfer (not the way physics works kids, not at all).
So those extoling the virtues of this physics build, please explain it to me? Why are the road cars less progressive than race cars, as this runs counter to reality? No vagaries, the actual physics (even in basics) of why this is, because as it stands right now, one of these is wrong!
The funny thing is that the arguments on both sides of this issue here at GT Planet are very similar to the discussions in iRacing forums up until about 2-3 years ago when iRacing really made a break through with their tires. Before that, for 10 bloody years, people argued about the tire model extensively. People still do a bit, because that's what people do. But iRacing kept working at it and now has a pretty great tire.
Scaff
Moderator
- 29,463
- He/Him
- ScaffUK
And that's exactly why we don't use other titles as the final benchmark.
It's known that every title around has it's own issues, some have more than others, and that arguably allows title to be ranked. But in terms of is X behaviour accurate in Title Y, then you look to reality to check, not to title Z.
- 947
- Australia
- R0T4RY99
- R0T4RY
I'm having a blast playing GT7 too. They got more right than wrong in GT7, their engine sound (porsche carrera GT sounds orgasmic they need to put Lexus LFA back ASAP!!!), tuning parts, body parts, photo scape, liveries, car detail, weather/day night cycle, replay is all fantastic IMO. I just wanted the game to be a little bit better that's all.
- 6,764
- Ontario
- SvennoJ
- SvenZ
I don't know what's realistic but it's all very inconsistent to me.
The GR.4 Lancer drives as if it's on rails. Can't upset it. Same for GR.2. But I drive those with power limiters to use them in the 550 pp and 800 pp races (which makes those trivially easy). It's like driving a train.
Yet Bopped GR.3 cars have that snap oversteer, while certain GR.1 cars seem to have binary grip, on/off and you spin out on the slightest high speed turn.
Road cars are easier to catch on sports tires, but do break out a lot.
GR.B is silly, or maybe I broke it with tuning. The race around Tokyo I resorted to wall riding as my tuned GR.B car can't take a single corner without going sideways into the opposite wall. Might as well start on the wall... Slow down enough to not go sideways and the AI comes by so fast they often crash into me.
The GR.4 Lancer drives as if it's on rails. Can't upset it. Same for GR.2. But I drive those with power limiters to use them in the 550 pp and 800 pp races (which makes those trivially easy). It's like driving a train.
Yet Bopped GR.3 cars have that snap oversteer, while certain GR.1 cars seem to have binary grip, on/off and you spin out on the slightest high speed turn.
Road cars are easier to catch on sports tires, but do break out a lot.
GR.B is silly, or maybe I broke it with tuning. The race around Tokyo I resorted to wall riding as my tuned GR.B car can't take a single corner without going sideways into the opposite wall. Might as well start on the wall... Slow down enough to not go sideways and the AI comes by so fast they often crash into me.
- 1,306
- Canada
We need a "good things about GT7" thread! Some of us bought this game with our hard earned money and GTP tends to lean towards the side that wants to convince us that PD is incompetent as a whole and GT7 is an affront to motorsport games. Maybe the same people who need to justify their $20 000 rig and hundreds of weekends spent hotlapping Monza and Spa.
I know some people here bring legitimate criticisms as a school teacher would criticize their best student but others just can't bring themselves to say one good thing which is what I find baffling. I'm sorry but driving racecars in this game is sublime. Qualifying for Daytona yesterday was so damn fun and for whatever reason, trail braking was working way better for me than it was a few days ago.
- 1,306
- Canada
And I just kept braking later and later and I'd always manage to hit the apex and get more speed on the subsequent straight. Whether it was the Porsche or the Vette or the Vantage, everything felt so fun to use. Such a big improvement over GTS. The races will feel more dynamic now, too.
Scaff
Moderator
- 29,463
- He/Him
- ScaffUK
You mean like this one...
Little Things You Love about GT7?
Also I really like the environmental animations, like planes landing in the background of Daytona? I think but just generally it brings the world to life especially on replays I saw a space ship at Daytona ;)
www.gtplanet.net
... I know it says little things, but it doesn't have to be.
Or you could have created such a a thread, rather than posting off topic in this one?
- 393
- Germany
- RaceFace85
- 393
- Germany
- RaceFace85
- 1,306
- Canada
I made sure to mention that I have been able to trail brake better. It could be me just getting used to it, though, but it did feel different.You mean like this one...
Little Things You Love about GT7?
Also I really like the environmental animations, like planes landing in the background of Daytona? I think but just generally it brings the world to life especially on replays I saw a space ship at Daytona ;)
... I know it says little things, but it doesn't have to be.
Or you could have created such a a thread, rather than posting off topic in this one?
- 3,052
- England
- kilesa4568
He's reacting to what he's seeing instead of feeling. I can drive the same way in road cars but it's not sustainable with how much effort it needs. Not for me anyway.
I tried. Oh, how I tried. The fact that people are defending these compromised physics by compromising their driving, all while throwing mild insults at anyone who disagrees made it easy to walk away and just lurk instead.
- 1,306
- Canada
I know reality is the benchmark but as someone who has never raced before or driven a very fast car even, I have to say that GT7 is far more intuitive than GTS. The inputs people did to put up a good time in GTS were practically foreign to me. I never really could trust myself or the car I was in, despite seeing video evidence implying that I could. But, and I am probably setting myself up for disappointment here, I think I have the potential to perform even better in sport mode in GT7. And I appreciate that I will be able to be more creative with the lines I take and how I will generally steer the car with pedals.
- 357
- Singapore
Something wrong with ffb now
Scaff
Moderator
- 29,463
- He/Him
- ScaffUK
GT's FFB has never been great, but a lot of feeling from curbs that was present in GTS has been lost in GT7 and the (inaccurate) understeer rumble, which was annoying in GTS is now at times totally obnoxious and overpowering.
- 6,764
- Ontario
- SvennoJ
- SvenZ
So much for BoP races, all 3 races are tuning again 
Back to GT Sport then.
Back to GT Sport then.
- 289
- Canada
- H_Knight19
These physics are severely impacting my enjoyment of GT7. NO car gets turn lock and snap spin at just 60km/h. Or snap spins turning into a fast corner at 120km/h. Many cars are just undriveable because they're so unstable.
You can't tell me that's realistic. I have never seen a car IRL behave that way.
You can't tell me that's realistic. I have never seen a car IRL behave that way.
- 16
- Poland
I don't know guys. Its just a game, and a console game at that, so I have lower realism expectations.
Ive had all the options, could play any of the racing sims, VR included, yet I settled on GTS and now on GT7 for a single reason - In my eyes it properly simulates racing cars. Racing as is, using different lines to outsmart your rival, behave in traffic and have some simple pit stop strategies to spice things up.
Sure there are some things that need adjusting/fixing, and Im pretty sure they will eventually.
It is also evident to me, that the cars will behave different than their real life counterparts, I just have no expectations that the developer will realistically simulate all the electronics that make for example Focus RS mk3 special. And even if, what would they replicate? The behavior in normal mode? or In Sport Mode with lowered TCS? (Probably track mode xD) In those modes you hav different behaving cars, what would be the "reality" benchmark here?
Anyway, as long as PD is gonna give me those sweet sweet close races in sport mode, Im happy. I don't even need to win, just the joy of driving in a tight pack is awesome.
Also remember that those true pc sims have couple of additions, like for example customizable FOV, or triple monitor setups.
All of those help with space awareness, sense of speed and hitting apexes. Also FFB that is considered "good" among the users gives more information that a real steering wheel would. It needs to compensate for the info your body would usually get. So, basically, less realistic steering wheel feedback feels more realistic to the user playing the game.
GTS in that regards felt like a complete package, and was laser focused. sure the fov was fixed and the FFB was on the dull side, but the less demanding physics complemented that.
Now we have more demanding physics, yet I feel even less informed both by the wheel, and by the tyre squeal being muted.
Wobble 2 camera gives more info, as you can see what's happening with the car more, and it helps with the sense of speed, but I refuse to use it, its too obtrusive.
Im not so sure about the inputs coming from the steering wheel too. As you all already noticed, the throttle and brake pedal has different linearity, but Im wondering if this is not the case with the steering too. Sometimes I do a minimal turn on the wheel, yet it chugs the car into the curve like I really meant it. If those inputs are over the top then no wonder that its hard to catch a slide, especially with muscle memory coming from GTS or a real car.
Ive had all the options, could play any of the racing sims, VR included, yet I settled on GTS and now on GT7 for a single reason - In my eyes it properly simulates racing cars. Racing as is, using different lines to outsmart your rival, behave in traffic and have some simple pit stop strategies to spice things up.
Sure there are some things that need adjusting/fixing, and Im pretty sure they will eventually.
It is also evident to me, that the cars will behave different than their real life counterparts, I just have no expectations that the developer will realistically simulate all the electronics that make for example Focus RS mk3 special. And even if, what would they replicate? The behavior in normal mode? or In Sport Mode with lowered TCS? (Probably track mode xD) In those modes you hav different behaving cars, what would be the "reality" benchmark here?
Anyway, as long as PD is gonna give me those sweet sweet close races in sport mode, Im happy. I don't even need to win, just the joy of driving in a tight pack is awesome.
Also remember that those true pc sims have couple of additions, like for example customizable FOV, or triple monitor setups.
All of those help with space awareness, sense of speed and hitting apexes. Also FFB that is considered "good" among the users gives more information that a real steering wheel would. It needs to compensate for the info your body would usually get. So, basically, less realistic steering wheel feedback feels more realistic to the user playing the game.
GTS in that regards felt like a complete package, and was laser focused. sure the fov was fixed and the FFB was on the dull side, but the less demanding physics complemented that.
Now we have more demanding physics, yet I feel even less informed both by the wheel, and by the tyre squeal being muted.
Wobble 2 camera gives more info, as you can see what's happening with the car more, and it helps with the sense of speed, but I refuse to use it, its too obtrusive.
Im not so sure about the inputs coming from the steering wheel too. As you all already noticed, the throttle and brake pedal has different linearity, but Im wondering if this is not the case with the steering too. Sometimes I do a minimal turn on the wheel, yet it chugs the car into the curve like I really meant it. If those inputs are over the top then no wonder that its hard to catch a slide, especially with muscle memory coming from GTS or a real car.
Scaff
Moderator
- 29,463
- He/Him
- ScaffUK
In all honesty what you're describing is 'racecraft' and doesn't really fall into the physics side of things, it's possible in almost all racing titles, often regardless of the accuracy of the simulation. I just wish in GT it extended to the AI as well.
Why can't they replicate them? It's possible, and other titles have to a greater or lesser degree, most do just opt for the Sport or Race mode, but AC and Project Cars (the first two) have done so and also tried to replicate the same types of TC and Stability Control the actual cars have.
These features are most certainly not just the preserve of PC titles, and while PC title often get more granualr options a lot of console titles get more in terms of these aeas than GT provides.
If mainstream titles on console such as WRC and F1 can offer adjustable FoV and FFB on console that include the kind of options you are refereeing to, then so can GT. After all AC, ACC and the first two Project Cars also offered these, Gran Turismo is arguable the outlier here.
GT 7 categorically could offer these kind of options, as I've mentioned about, plenty of console titles do. It's not a limitation of being a console title that stops PD doing so, it's a design choice by them.
Last edited:
- 3,987
- Chicago
- fortbo
- fortbo
Some cars are definitely more accurate than others. Like I said a while ago, the AMG GTS in game feels properly simulated, doesn't feel any crazier at the limit compared to driving the real car on the limit and everything just feels correct. Then there's some other car's like the BRZ, which still feel very accurate to what I've felt on the limit in real life, but are a little too twitchy once you start getting passed the limit. I think this is a big reason why everyone has such drastically differing opinions on the handling. Some cars are just more accurately simulated than others. As for the rain physics, I don't have any issue with the general peak grip you get in the wet, the vast majority of tracks will have less grip (sometimes massively less) than the amount of grip you will find on a public road. On a few it's even very easy to loop a front wheel drive car.
Just to share my thoughts..
Yesterday I tryed with friends the skyline r34 at laguna seca on gt7 and Ac.
As the 458 Italia, now lap times are about the same, and a lot slower than the same cars on gt sport.
Talking about feeling, on Ac cars are too much understeering.. Even the 458 on third gear, without tcs and full torque rpm should be more aggressive and try to spin. At least this is what I saw too in hotlap video with Alonso and massa.. On Ac it is really understeering and then progressive on oversteer.
On gt7, the opposite, it spin out very fast (too much probably).
Anyways, just personal taste I guess, I prefer weight transfer and the need to keep the car balanced on gt7.
Ac let you more "abuse" (it is not the right word for this game, anyways) on the throttle and steering and i can't feel good the weight transfer on cars, but maybe is just me.
R34 is similar.. I feel more the weight on gt, but even here is just my opinion
Yesterday I tryed with friends the skyline r34 at laguna seca on gt7 and Ac.
As the 458 Italia, now lap times are about the same, and a lot slower than the same cars on gt sport.
Talking about feeling, on Ac cars are too much understeering.. Even the 458 on third gear, without tcs and full torque rpm should be more aggressive and try to spin. At least this is what I saw too in hotlap video with Alonso and massa.. On Ac it is really understeering and then progressive on oversteer.
On gt7, the opposite, it spin out very fast (too much probably).
Anyways, just personal taste I guess, I prefer weight transfer and the need to keep the car balanced on gt7.
Ac let you more "abuse" (it is not the right word for this game, anyways) on the throttle and steering and i can't feel good the weight transfer on cars, but maybe is just me.
R34 is similar.. I feel more the weight on gt, but even here is just my opinion
- 1,251
- Australia
I think Lord protector mentioned that the game now simulates the rub of the tyre against the wheel wells or something? Not sure if he was on a controller, but Which if true is bloody huge and could have all sorts of implications for wonky physics being not so?. But I doubt it?
Last edited:
Similar threads
