Gran Turismo 7 Physics

[wheelhp]

Forget what Jimmy says about wet weather for a moment

Why would I forget all the evidence in this thread? Or pretend that it doesn't exist? Can the physics of a

Nordschleife/weather combo with a 911 not be different from the physics of an entriely different track/dry road with a FR or other RWD drivetrain with different tyres? We don't know how but we know that what jimmer accomplished seems to be a rarity(to me at least) and could be due to a number of things, hell he might have even borrowed a tune or setup from someone for all we know. I think what's more likely (I'm reaching, for sure) is his specific car/track/weather combo resulted in a better driving feel, for whatever reason, plus it's jimmer, you know he's able to pull off stuff that most casual GT players could only dream of. He makes it look easy. That's Jimmer. ​

It does not disprove the rest of the evidence in the entirety of this thread that people keep ignoring so they can claim GT7 is fine and then try to shut down any conversation on physics or tire model, regardless of civility. Maybe you just haven't read properly about the actual criticisms here.​

 

[wheelhp]

At 11:19 he was talking about what GT does better. He was saying trailing behind cars there is more grip since the cars in front displace the water and when he gets out in front there is less grip. He's been praising the wet weather all the time he streams and says it's probably the best simulation of it from any sim.

Nope (to it being best in any sim, which is a load of tripe). And Nope, I strongly suggest you actually watch and listen to what he says carefully before and after that timestamp I linked. Seems you might have glossed over the point he made.

I went so far as to put subtitles on, to ensure I was reading him correctly. And I stand by what I've found, which is exactly what he's said, lol. You might have to do the same and re-read him as it can be confusing when he's speaking so quickly.

 

[NikNakTobasco]

Realistic or not, the fact he managed to get that car around the track in cockpit view with no ABS on torrential rain and didn’t face the wrong way once was very impressive indeed. He was modulating throttle input constantly and was hardly ever at 100%, he was doing the same with the S10 test.

 

[xMAXIx79]

I think that is and will be one of the most important points in the near future. The possibility and also sometimes the necessity of metering the gas and brakes very precisely. That wasn't possible at all in GTS... now it's possible and it's important.

With GTS I gave full throttle and zb. at the courage curve of the Nordschleife, the pedal lifted just a little bit, but I still only had 20% accelerator pedal position in play and when I accelerated again, it rose very quickly to 100%. With GTS it worked because I usually had enough grip. If I were to drive like this now with the new physics, I would fly off the track immediately OR I would be much too slow.
Now in GT7 I can and MUST use the brakes and the gas very finely.. I can eg. on the Nordschleife route experience, control the M6 extremely sensitively with the gas and can e.g. before the courage curve just reduce full throttle by 10%-20% to get a slight weight shift and to reduce the speed a little bit. I drive through the corner at between 225-232 km/h in this section without the car becoming unstable or touching the curbs. With GTS, this speed wasn't possible there because the car either decelerated too much or I didn't get enough grip on the front wheels to be able to steer into the corner.

Driving in road vehicles is much more demanding than before, I don't think anyone can deny that. But it's fun if you push the frustration aside and try to grow from it.

 

[DPereira_2909]

Damn good when the most cars aren't able to drive a banked curve without crashing?

Yes they are damn good. The feeling is very close to AC, especially on race cars. I just tried the Super Formula with ABS off around Spa and felt just like a faster Lotus t125 S1 on Assetto. There are significant issues on road cars but it's levels above GTS

I don't think you're should be saying physics are horrible if you cant even complete the I-licences when getting gold on everything but S10 is a cakewalk.

 

[xMAXIx79]

Why would I forget all the evidence in this thread? Or pretend that it doesn't exist? Can the physics of a

Nordschleife/weather combo with a 911 not be different from the physics of an entriely different track/dry road with a FR or other RWD drivetrain with different tyres? We don't know how but we know that what jimmer accomplished seems to be a rarity(to me at least) and could be due to a number of things, hell he might have even borrowed a tune or setup from someone for all we know. I think what's more likely (I'm reaching, for sure) is his specific car/track/weather combo resulted in a better driving feel, for whatever reason, plus it's jimmer, you know he's able to pull off stuff that most casual GT players could only dream of. He makes it look easy. That's Jimmer. ​

It does not disprove the rest of the evidence in the entirety of this thread that people keep ignoring so they can claim GT7 is fine and then try to shut down any conversation on physics or tire model, regardless of civility. Maybe you just haven't read enough about the actual criticisms here.​

I think YOU are one of those people who can't read properly or understand what is written.

NOBODY here has written as far as I can remember that the physics in GT7 are perfect, no one will go that far with even a little brain in their heads. But it is different / more demanding / more interesting / more natural / or just more difficult than e.g. in GTS. Now it's time to find out what comes closer to claiming "The Real Driving Simulator". And for me as well as for many others it is just GT7 and not GTS and certainly not older GT parts. Before GTS the GT parts were very good and fun in their own time, but they were much more Acarde-heavy than GTS was... now GT7 came and you can see very clearly that GTS was much more Acarde compared to GT7 than many believe / want to admit.
There is a reason why games / simulations like AC / ACC and others are very difficult or impossible to play with a PAD. But it has to be the GT parts, otherwise the game would sell much worse. Therefore, compromises must always be made. With GT7 I notice for the first time that these compromises show a limit and now sometimes even the drivers of a steering wheel could be disadvantaged, because obviously there are imperceptible helpers in the game that allow users of a PAD's to stay on the track and much more to drive fast.
These helpers seem to be completely disabled when using a steering wheel and then require extremely precise and sometimes very fast reactions from the player.

At least that's my "critical" impression.

 

[wheelhp]

I cannot, for the life of me, comprehend why the factory live axle on my Super Bee is more consistent and stable than a two-way or full custom diff. It also feels like the settings on the diff make next to no difference on the car stepping out so violently.

car is 499 HP, 2500 lbs and on sports soft tyres. driver is actively trying to control the car with constant throttle adjustment.

I have an inclination that this needs more attention.

Edit: I'd try to use Praiano's tunes as a guide for how to tune the way GT7 wants you to tune. He makes the best tunes on this site, period. Seems the roll bars, damper extension and differential settings are the most important from a quick gloss over, as well as weight ballast.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/praianos-tunes-settings-for-gt7.404868/page-7#post-13619326

 

[wheelhp]

I think YOU are one of those people who can't read properly or understand what is written.

NOBODY here has written as far as I can remember that the physics in GT7 are perfect, no one will go that far with even a little brain in their heads. But it is different / more demanding / more interesting / more natural / or just more difficult than e.g. in GTS. Now it's time to find out what comes closer to claiming "The Real Driving Simulator". And for me as well as for many others it is just GT7 and not GTS and certainly not older GT parts. Before GTS the GT parts were very good and fun in their own time, but they were much more Acarde-heavy than GTS was... now GT7 came and you can see very clearly that GTS was much more Acarde compared to GT7 than many believe / want to admit.
There is a reason why games / simulations like AC / ACC and others are very difficult or impossible to play with a PAD. But it has to be the GT parts, otherwise the game would sell much worse. Therefore, compromises must always be made. With GT7 I notice for the first time that these compromises show a limit and now sometimes even the drivers of a steering wheel could be disadvantaged, because obviously there are imperceptible helpers in the game that allow users of a PAD's to stay on the track and much more to drive fast.
These helpers seem to be completely disabled when using a steering wheel and then require extremely precise and sometimes very fast reactions from the player.

At least that's my "critical" impression.

YOU can think WHAT you like. That's called an opinion. I'm merely just pointing out what Jimmer said, and already there's been chinese whispers about it.

Hell there's been people in this very thread who've seemingly got nothing, not one bad thing to say about GT7's unfinished physics, instead they only sing praise in unison. I'd call that people who have a smooth brain, not little brain. I wouldn't know how you keep selectively missing that. Ha Ha Ha. It's literally all over this thread. People who don't like criticisms on their new favourite game.

 

[extreme car]

If I take your word that loss of grip is instantaneous, then how is Jimmy doing this? And if I accept what I am seeing in Jimmy's vid, then how am I to believe you?...Gotta say, it's difficult to follow your assertions when I'm seeing Jimmy saw at the wheel of a 930 in the rain...unless you have vids on the contrary?

I don't know what you are using/doing to have the kind of experience you are describing. I don't want to guess or judge. If you can, share a vid. That way you have credibility.

For me, I'm with the reasonable voices here -- PD has some housekeeping to do, but general underlying physics is a good starting point.

Oh no Jimmy can't drift in GT7. how am I to believe GT7 is the "real driving simulator".

 

[wheelhp]

Oh no Jimmy can't drift in GT7. how am I to believe GT7 is the "real driving simulator".

Nice catch. Haven't seen this one. 4hrs 2mins 30 seconds in he struggles up and down all right! That's 4:02:30 . Good to have him represent wonky physics so clearly. Wouldn't have been able to find this myself!

 

[DaRealPoverty]

Oh, I don't know about that. When the rain is (relatively) heavy on the highway, even travelling at 100kph is dicey. I was in LA once and saw the highway traffic slow to a crawl during a mild storm. My real life car can feel light and disconnected from the asphalt at speeds above 110 when the rain is heavy.

I've been on a wet track, and yes, there is decent, but unpredictable grip. And that changes from track to track. Anything painted though, and forget it. It's like ice. And you really want to avoid puddles because you'll lose a lot of heat in your tires very rapidly, so I'd say they did a decent job.

If you’re getting that at 110kmh you need to change your tyres, or invest in a better brand.

My car will aquaplane at 50mph on semi slicks, same car, same conditions, same road, on Michelin PS4s road tyres I can do 150mph without issue.

Except they do. lol



By the way. Nice TTRS

Literally all those cars out braked themselves. They didn’t just slide off for no reason.

 

[Scaff]

Wet weather is definitely more detail.

In comparison to GTS I agree.

No other game has the dynamics of a dry line developing over the course of the race, not to mention the varying level of grip depending on the amount of water on the surface.

Not even remotely close to being true. GT7's wet weather arguably looks better than anything else around, well it did until they nerfed the spray in the last update, and it's water on windscreen certainly isn't class leading either. However in terms of drying line, varying grip level, etc. Not only do a good number of other titles do that and have been doing so for years (PC and console), but they do so with more detail and accuracy.

Some were also commenting on the details of the curbs and contact patches of the tires being more than just binary.

GT 7 is running a single point tyre model, which while no bad thing on its own, can run into issues with curbs and surface changes, however we have a number of titles (on PC, just one on console) that are running 5 point contact patch models.

So I guess I need to roll this link out once again.

PHYSICS - Introducing the 5 point tyre model for ACC!

In modern computing, collision detection is still one of the most resource consuming operations a physics engine has to do. It needs to be very fast,...

www.assettocorsa.net

Except they do. lol



By the way. Nice TTRS

Did you read that post fully before you decided to use a strawman argument?

At no point was it said that it's impossible to loose a car, simply that it's nothing like as easy as it is in GT7, but once again we have real-world experience being pushed aside in favour of confirmation bias.

Now I did watch it, just to see what's going on, and for the first ten incidents we have the following:

1. Out-braked themselves in a corner notorious for it
2. Understeer
3. Race car - not relevant to this, but they also out-braked themselves
4. Race car - not relevant to this. but two cars off on the same corner in the same way? Most likely dropped oil or similar
5. Understeer
6. Offline in the wet
7. Race car - not relevant to this, but blatantly unbalanced from ridding the curb
8. Engine blowout
9. Way to fast trying to keep pace with the 'vette, braked far too late and the curb didn't help either
10. Can't actually see the start of the control loss so impossible to say

So based on a quick review of your video evidence it would seem that most accidents don't occur in the way they can with some road cars in GT 7.

As it stands right now in GT 7 we have a situation in which race cars are more progressive on the limit than the majority of road cars. This runs counter to reality, as with stiffer suspension, less progressive tyres, lower ride-height, lower Polar Moment of Inertia, etc they have all the ingredients (and this isn't a subjective view, this is the objective laws of physics) that should make them less progressive over the limit than just about any road car.

I'm yet to see any of those saying that the snap oversteer we are finding in many road cars (many of them also cars known for being progressive in reality) is harder to manage than in race cars that should 100% be less progressive. The closest I've seen is some utter nonsense about soft suspension causing more load transfer (not the way physics works kids, not at all).

So those extoling the virtues of this physics build, please explain it to me? Why are the road cars less progressive than race cars, as this runs counter to reality? No vagaries, the actual physics (even in basics) of why this is, because as it stands right now, one of these is wrong!

 

[Mark folsom]

Instead of making false claims how GT7 is almost like Assetto Corsa, just do download AC on PS NOW.

It's free. We can then put this GT7/AC comparison to rest. They are NOTHING alike.

 

[KAlex122]

PS Now has a very small userbase. Understandably, i find. Dont care about comparisons. Already love GT7.

 

[Mark folsom]

PS Now has a very small userbase. Understandably, i find. Dont care about comparisons. Already love GT7.

Say what? 3.2 million is small?

 

[KAlex122]

Say what? 3.2 million is small?

Yess. So, about 1/40 of PS4/5 players has it.

 

[Mark folsom]

Yess

Lol

 

[HugoTwoWheels]

He's one of the fastest racers in the world in GT Sport, and this is the best review on the topic we're having here I've seen so far. Listen to the parts on simulation and his conclusion in the end. Spot on. It's short and well worth the click and time.

 

[RaceFace85]

Yes they are damn good. The feeling is very close to AC, especially on race cars. I just tried the Super Formula with ABS off around Spa and felt just like a faster Lotus t125 S1 on Assetto. There are significant issues on road cars but it's levels above GTS

I don't think you're should be saying physics are horrible if you cant even complete the I-licences when getting gold on everything but S10 is a cakewalk.

The handling from AC for road cars is bad too.
I just can compare the RX-8 and MX-5 from real life and I can say you that the handling of this two cars is completely wrong. When you have slight understeering in the most corners and in GT7 you have oversteering in every corner (no matter how fast you are), then you know that something is completely wrong.

 

[Grandi]

So those extoling the virtues of this physics build, please explain it to me? Why are the road cars less progressive than race cars, as this runs counter to reality? No vagaries, the actual physics (even in basics) of why this is, because as it stands right now, one of these is wrong!

I (partially) don't agree with this, to me most of the road cars I've tested are highly progressive, up to the small slip angles that one would usually prefer in circuit driving. Mostly once you reach hooning territory, the issues become very apparent, and there are the occasional odd and sensitive spinouts, depending a bit on the car. In terms of race cars, I've only properly driven a few such as the GT500 Supra and Gr2 Lexus. These feel appropriately stiff, nuanced and sensitive, although the FFB could use some more detail. I wonder how the feedback is with a DD wheel? I think there's also an (intuitively) apporpriate increase in sensitivity once you fit a road car with stiffer suspension and more capable rubber, don't you agree?

Many race cars such as the GT500 Supra have very understeery setups by default; combine this with the snap oversteer on exit = bad time driving. Others such as the R8 are a mess and a handful, and need significant diff adjustment at the very least. I would think that basic QA for PD could entail a capable driver setting a good baseline setup for each car? (better yet, generate a few different default setups such as ACC, for different preferences). I find it baffling that there is so much blood and sweat poured onto the detailed audiovisual representation of the cars while the setups are left in the current state, in particular as I feel they have a much stronger impact on the cars than in previous GTs.

I hope that PD finds it a priority to make improvements, I really do enjoy the driving in GT7 despite its issues, and in my opinion it does many things very well. For any sim-minded person to prefer GTS, I cannot agree but they are of course entitled to their view.

 

[BlazeTheCat05]

Call me crazy, but I feel like something's happened with the road cars. Suddenly they're much more manageable for me. Drove a stock Camaro Z/28 '69 on Sports Mediums yesterday and it was a load of fun. Didn't have to baby it much. Then I switched to Comfort Softs, and apart from slightly more wheelspin from the loaded wheel, it was still very drivable.

I chatted with a few friends and they all noticed improvements to the RWD and AWD road cars. Seems to be just for Comfort and Sport tires though. Possibly a tuneable edit (If that's possible)?

 

[Johnnn]

He's one of the fastest racers in the world in GT Sport, and this is the best review on the topic we're having here I've seen so far. Listen to the parts on simulation and his conclusion in the end. Spot on. It's short and well worth the click and time.

The problem is what can GTS champion knows about proper physics?

 

[RaceFace85]

Call me crazy, but I feel like something's happened with the road cars. Suddenly they're much more manageable for me. Drove a stock Camaro Z/28 '69 on Sports Mediums yesterday and it was a load of fun. Didn't have to baby it much. Then I switched to Comfort Softs, and apart from slightly more wheelspin from the loaded wheel, it was still very drivable.

I chatted with a few friends and they all noticed improvements to the RWD and AWD road cars. Seems to be just for Comfort and Sport tires though. Possibly a tuneable edit (If that's possible)?

There was an undocumented improvement to the handling but it's still far away from a realistic grip.

 

[Scaff]

I (partially) don't agree with this, to me most of the road cars I've tested are highly progressive, up to the small slip angles that one would usually prefer in circuit driving.

And up to that point I've already said GT7 is doing an OK job, certainly better than GTS.

Mostly once you reach hooning territory, the issues become very apparent, and there are the occasional odd and sensitive spinouts, depending a bit on the car.

Exactly, which doesn't happen as much with the race-spec cars.

In terms of race cars, I've only properly driven a few such as the GT500 Supra and Gr2 Lexus. These feel appropriately stiff, nuanced and sensitive, although the FFB could use some more detail. I wonder how the feedback is with a DD wheel? I think there's also an (intuitively) apporpriate increase in sensitivity once you fit a road car with stiffer suspension and more capable rubber, don't you agree?

I wouldn't. Cross testing between the two the race cars still offer more progression that a lot of the road cars do stock, and some of the road cars actually feel more progressive when you fit race rubber and stiffer, lower suspension to them than they did stock (a lot of the US muscle falls into this category).

 

[Imari]

Wet weather is definitely more detail. No other game has the dynamics of a dry line developing over the course of the race, not to mention the varying level of grip depending on the amount of water on the surface.
Some were also commenting on the details of the curbs and contact patches of the tires being more than just binary.

No. Multiple other games have this, and have done for some time.

If you’re getting that at 110kmh you need to change your tyres, or invest in a better brand.

My car will aquaplane at 50mph on semi slicks, same car, same conditions, same road, on Michelin PS4s road tyres I can do 150mph without issue.

Or the drainage on the road is just shocking. I've been on some bad roads where the water just wouldn't run off fast enough to allow me to drive at speed. But on a racetrack that seems unlikely, they're usually designed with drainage in mind.

 

[Scaff]

Or the drainage on the road is just shocking. I've been on some bad roads where the water just wouldn't run off fast enough to allow me to drive at speed. But on a racetrack that seems unlikely, they're usually designed with drainage in mind.

Oh you would be surprised, the lack of a road crown combined with a finer grade of aggregate used makes standing water an issue at a number of tracks, often building up quicker than they would on a public road in the same conditions.

 

[BigSarj]

I'm just asking a question here but why is it that Jimmy said that other games should take note of how GT7 does the rain/drying lines, etc? He made it seem like other games don't do this at all. This was in his "my favourite thing about GT7" video in which he drives the AE86.

 

[m76]

If I take your word that loss of grip is instantaneous, then how is Jimmy doing this? And if I accept what I am seeing in Jimmy's vid, then how am I to believe you?...Gotta say, it's difficult to follow your assertions when I'm seeing Jimmy saw at the wheel of a 930 in the rain...unless you have vids on the contrary?

I don't know what you are using/doing to have the kind of experience you are describing. I don't want to guess or judge. If you can, share a vid. That way you have credibility.

For me, I'm with the reasonable voices here -- PD has some housekeeping to do, but general underlying physics is a good starting point.

The two things do not contradict each other. You can still retain some level of control and prevent spinning when cars snap oversteer in the game / Even I managed to do it a few times, despite not playing any racing game for more than 5 minutes since GT6 / But that does not make the physics realistic or good in any way. That's like saying the horrendous clutch implementation is realistic because someone can learn to cope with it.

What I find most disappointing is that the cars will snap oversteer coming out of corners if you short shift. The exact opposite should happen, in higher gear the car has less torque so it should be less likely to loose grip. This technique is used even in F1, yet it completely backfires in GT7, this is not good.

Oh and one more thing, yes driving in GT7 does feel like driving in the wet even in dry conditions. and in the wet it feels like driving with slicks in torrential water. It is ridiculous.

 

[MagpieRacer]

I'm just asking a question here but why is it that Jimmy said that other games should take note of how GT7 does the rain/drying lines, etc? He made it seem like other games don't do this at all. This was in his "my favourite thing about GT7" video in which he drives the AE86.

I think he's probably getting caught up in the visuals. It is, in my opinion, the most attractive way it's been done. Other games have done it for years so it's absolutely not a new thing. But it's possibly the most attractive version.

 

[BigSarj]

I think he's probably getting caught up in the visuals. It is, in my opinion, the most attractive way it's been done. Other games have done it for years so it's absolutely not a new thing. But it's possibly the most attractive version.

Gotcha. Anyway, I'm having a ton of fun, despite how completely unrealistic and trash and borderline evil some people make this game out to be. I was so excited about Race C this week...