Gran Turismo 7 Physics

[Scaff]

FBB is totally correct. Lol.
For example, if my steering angle is too much and my car starts to understeer, the tires tend to lightly skip over the road surface and you can feel a slight rumble in the wheel. I verified this over and over again. It communicates exactly what I feel in real life. I play on a G27 with the Feedback torque set to 8.
When I enter a 4 wheel slide, with the Evo, you give the wheel a slight counter steer and the car straightens out. Rear end of the car swings out exactly how it does irl. PD got the suspension movement on point and when going over undulating bumps around corners, the car’s suspension feels wavy. You can feel the weight shifting through the wheel and the body movement trying to upset the steering.

As I’ve said before, I’ve driven the car at Streets of Willow. The elevation changes translate through the wheel well. It’s the same exact cornering speeds. There are long sweeper to the left before the punch bowl that’s slightly banked which you are danching at the edge of grip and you can feel the tires start to struggle. The punch bowl exit has the same exit points for full throttle. If you get on the throttle too early, you’ll understeer to the dirt. The long straight to the blind chicane, up to speed, the way you steer slightly right and left entering and exiting, suspension reacts exactly the same way. Same braking points. If you over cook, you out brake yourself. Skid pad to pit straight, same holding and exit speeds and throttle applications.

The FFB has a number of issues, aside form lacking detail.

Let's start with understeer, as you've missed out a phase, one which is rather critical and is covered in every driving school, dynamics lecture, tyres physics session, etc.

Steering load increases as lateral load increases, upto the slip transition point, at which point as the contact patch starts to realign and the steering load goes light, and does so dramatically.

GT7 utterly misses this (as did GTS) , this occurs before tyre skip occurs, if tyre skip occurs.

Gran Turismo 7 Physics

I would think that basic QA for PD could entail a capable driver setting a good baseline setup for each car? (better yet, generate a few different default setups such as ACC, for different preferences). I find it baffling that there is so much blood and sweat poured onto the detailed audiovisual...

www.gtplanet.net

In addition certain compression wheel deflections don't get represented. One example being Paddock Hill Bend at Brands Hatch, in reality as you go through the drop and compression you can feel the wheels being deflected clearly through the steering. Rf2, AMS2, AC, ACC, etc all get this right, in GTS and GT7 this is absent.

I have a 1:1 experience with the game and track and that’s why my confidence in the Sim model is high. Regarding the 80-90%, the missing 10-20 percent has to do with certain aspects with cold tires and tire pressure affecting your handling. Also with sustaining slides with rwd cars. The game is fine a certain percent over the limit. When you are driving hard focusing on grip driving, the other 5% doesn’t really matter, but I know it hurts the drift guys.

As verification. Lol

View attachment 1124981View attachment 1124982

As have I for a number of combinations already discussed, as have others, all of which you have handwaved away. Why should you do that and then expect others to simply accept yours.

Oh and the roll on your two shots looks quite different.

 

[Firestone]

The FFB has a number of issues, aside form lacking detail.

Let's start with understeer, as you've missed out a phase, one which is rather critical and is covered in every driving school, dynamics lecture, tyres physics session, etc.

Steering load increases as lateral load increases, upto the slip transition point, at which point as the contact patch starts to realign and the steering load goes light, and does so dramatically.

GT7 utterly misses this (as did GTS) , this occurs before tyre skip occurs, if tyre skip occurs.

Gran Turismo 7 Physics

I would think that basic QA for PD could entail a capable driver setting a good baseline setup for each car? (better yet, generate a few different default setups such as ACC, for different preferences). I find it baffling that there is so much blood and sweat poured onto the detailed audiovisual...

www.gtplanet.net

In addition certain compression wheel deflections don't get represented. One example being Paddock Hill Bend at Brands Hatch, in reality as you go through the drop and compression you can feel the wheels being deflected clearly through the steering. Rf2, AMS2, AC, ACC, etc all get this right, in GTS and GT7 this is absent.

As have I for a number of combinations already discussed, as have others, all of which you have handwaved away. Why should you do that and then expect others to simply accept yours.

Oh and the roll on your two shots looks quite different.

What feedback settings are you using because I totally disagree with you. Torque settings 5 and below, the steering feels numb and doesn’t respond to the surface. I have my setting on 8 and you can quite easily feel what you described.

I have a 1:1 experience, so I’ll trust my experience more so than anything else. I’ve reverified, and that’s the key point from my own takeaway. I’m not fanboying this, I’m simply describing what I felt.

The banking at SOW punch bowl, the wheel wants to turn in at lower speeds.
Also most steering is electronically assisted in newer cars, so steering feeling is rather numb in general.
AC, the feedback is highly exaggerated. It give a false sense of what is going on, at least on the G27. I haven’t used other wheels. Irl, the wheel doesn’t shake as violently as in the game.

Regarding the suspension travel, I didn’t take the photo in the game at the same position , speed and load. That’s a bit of nit picking. Lol

 

[Scaff]

What feedback settings are you using because I totally disagree with you. Torque settings 5 and below, the steering feels numb and doesn’t respond to the surface. I have my setting on 8 and you can quite easily feel what you described.

I have a 1:1 experience, so I’ll trust my experience more so than anything else. I’ve reverified, and that’s the key point from my own takeaway. I’m not fanboying this, I’m simply describing what I felt.

The banking at SOW punch bowl, the wheel wants to turn in at lower speeds.
Also most steering is electronically assisted in newer cars, so steering feeling is rather numb in general.
AC, the feedback is highly exaggerated. It give a false sense of what is going on, at least on the G27. I haven’t used other wheels. Irl, the wheel doesn’t shake as violently as in the game.

Regarding the suspension travel, I didn’t take the photo in the game at the same position , speed and load. That’s a bit of nit picking. Lol

If I set my wheel to torque of 5 or above the weight would be completely and utterly innacurate, a T300 has a good deal more torque.

With regard to AC, its not exaggerated unless you have 'enhanced understeer' selected, and in reality this isn't a subtle effect, steering load can reduce in the region of up to 80%!

Tyre gough plots for a wide range of tyres and compounds clearly demonstrate this, I've experienced this in more cars than I can recall and have taught this.

 

[JDMKING13]

You can definitely feel the hills and sweeper turns through the wheel the feedback is way better than GTS… only big prob GT has is just track bumps… when going straight while is better than GTS it’s no where near like ACC or even AC… elevation changes can be felt through the wheel now this was not the case for GTS.

 

[extreme car]

The FFB has a number of issues, aside form lacking detail.

Let's start with understeer, as you've missed out a phase, one which is rather critical and is covered in every driving school, dynamics lecture, tyres physics session, etc.

Steering load increases as lateral load increases, upto the slip transition point, at which point as the contact patch starts to realign and the steering load goes light, and does so dramatically.

This is a very interesting topic for me because I've never been to a driving school/lecture before, I'm learning so much from you.

I've got a question on the point of steering load increase as lateral load increase, does that apply to all kind of steering rack? be it assisted by hydraulic or EPS or even unassisted? because when car journalist review cars they always says car with hydraulic/unassisted steering has a better steering information than that of EPS. they always point out car with EPS usually felt numb and doesn't give feedback to the driver.

 

[Jo3f1sh]

I also want to know why I have to fight to keep the Ford GT straight at SSX. I can literally feel it oscillating back and forth. On the banking, it's even worse. It's not a constant load on the wheel. It's literally "load, un-load, load, un-load" all through the turn.

Is this just an issue with Fanatec CSL wheels or something? I have the sensitivity at 1080, FFB at 87, BRF at low (due to my Clubsport pedals). Those are my only options.

Back to the 996 GT3, it's a 3000lb. car with under 400hp running racing slicks, and it still feels like it's on ice. My 450HP Mustang with garbage 245 Pirelli's honestly has more grip.

 

[Terronium-12]

I think I've about had it with this game for the time being. I don't know what the 🤬 it wants from me, I really don't.

- I short shift, lowering the torque curve and giving the car a bit more grip while corning, or at least that's how it's supposed to work. Nope. Snap oversteer.

- I go into a corner carefully and for some reason....snap oversteer.

- I don't know how brakes work in this game. And by "work", I mean they 🤬 don't. Is there like some jank brake fade or something? What is this?

I'm done. I'll be back after a patch or something.

 

[HugoTwoWheels]

I think I've about had it with this game for the time being. I don't know what the 🤬 it wants from me, I really don't.

- I short shift, lowering the torque curve and giving the car a bit more grip while corning, or at least that's how it's supposed to work. Nope. Snap oversteer.

- I go into a corner carefully and for some reason....snap oversteer.

- I don't know how brakes work in this game. And by "work", I mean they 🤬 don't. Is there like some jank brake fade or something? What is this?

I'm done. I'll be back after a patch or something.

Have you considered asking for help? I'm serious. Plenty of people are helpful.

 

[Johnnn]

Have you considered asking for help? I'm serious. Plenty of people are helpful.

Like bug report?

 

[dabz343]

Within this thread is alot a good real world info that applies to the new FFB and physics mixed with alot of opinion and lack of experience. No offense meant at all. What I'm saying is let's trouble shoot because I discovered something today.

Doesn't get much simpler than this...

This is really an important concept when evaluating FFB in games. Perhaps the claimed 'detailed ffb' advantage from DD wheels is their ability to articulate the upper-end nuances? I can't say because I don't own one.



This Alfa shows the Gough plot in action pretty convincingly. If you have not pushed this hard, then you may be aware of how steering forces change...but then again, IMO -- one has to account for a lot more than just steering forces when on the limit of grip.

 

[Terronium-12]

Have you considered asking for help? I'm serious. Plenty of people are helpful.

Help with what, exactly? There are things about the game that I fundamentally do not like. I don't want those issues masked, I want them gone. My driving style and the way GT7 wants you to drive clash, and that's perfectly fine.

I'll either come back after updates or play the game once every few days. If there were a way to sell cars, that would be another solution as I'd only have the cars that I know don't handle like absolute dog piss for my style.

 

[Firestone]

If I set my wheel to torque of 5 or above the weight would be completely and utterly innacurate, a T300 has a good deal more torque.

With regard to AC, its not exaggerated unless you have 'enhanced understeer' selected, and in reality this isn't a subtle effect, steering load can reduce in the region of up to 80%!

Tyre gough plots for a wide range of tyres and compounds clearly demonstrate this, I've experienced this in more cars than I can recall and have taught this.

Yeah, I don’t think torque should be set too low. The game doesn’t translate bumps well with a low setting. I think the sensitivity needs to be turned up also for more pronunciation of road surface. If torque is 10 and sensitivity is 1, the wheel would just feel dead heavy and won’t react to surface bumps. With a low torque and high sensitivity, steering is light but the torque transmission isn’t enough to dictate steering movement. I set torque and sensitivity at both 8 and can’t really differentiate my actual car steering weight for the game in all driving conditions.

 

[dabz343]

Help with what, exactly? There are things about the game that I fundamentally do not like. I don't want those issues masked, I want them gone. My driving style and the way GT7 wants you to drive clash, and that's perfectly fine.

I'll either come back after updates or play the game once every few days. If there were a way to sell cars, that would be another solution as I'd only have the cars that I know don't handle like absolute dog piss for my style.

This tone is toxic and you are a moderator?

 

[Terronium-12]

This tone is toxic and you are a moderator?

Quite the opposite, actually but I do appreciate you being offended on someone else's behalf!

 

[extreme car]

I think I've about had it with this game for the time being. I don't know what the 🤬 it wants from me, I really don't.

- I short shift, lowering the torque curve and giving the car a bit more grip while corning, or at least that's how it's supposed to work. Nope. Snap oversteer.

- I go into a corner carefully and for some reason....snap oversteer.

- I don't know how brakes work in this game. And by "work", I mean they 🤬 don't. Is there like some jank brake fade or something? What is this?

I'm done. I'll be back after a patch or something.

I'd avoid the rwd car for now. try FF, AWD, and Gr.4 cars they seem less murdery.

 

[JDMKING13]

I also want to know why I have to fight to keep the Ford GT straight at SSX. I can literally feel it oscillating back and forth. On the banking, it's even worse. It's not a constant load on the wheel. It's literally "load, un-load, load, un-load" all through the turn.

Is this just an issue with Fanatec CSL wheels or something? I have the sensitivity at 1080, FFB at 87, BRF at low (due to my Clubsport pedals). Those are my only options.

Back to the 996 GT3, it's a 3000lb. car with under 400hp running racing slicks, and it still feels like it's on ice. My 450HP Mustang with garbage 245 Pirelli's honestly has more grip.

Been driving the 996 GT3 and while not better than the 997 it’s still a good car and easy to drive and this is on SH tires. I don’t know how you are having problem with racing tires?

 

[Terronium-12]

I'd avoid the rwd car for now. try FF, AWD, and Gr.4 cars they seem less murdery.

I adore the Civic Type R. I haven't driven too many AWD cars as of yet. The problem isn't even every rear-wheel driven car. The E92 M3? Amazing. AMG GT Black? Respectably murderous. F40? Squirrely under braking but is otherwise another amazing car. And that's three examples off the top of my head.

 

[FA_Hayes]

Doesn't get much simpler than this...

View attachment 1125007

This is really an important concept when evaluating FFB in games. Perhaps the claimed 'detailed ffb' advantage from DD wheels is their ability to articulate the upper-end nuances? I can't say because I don't own one.



This Alfa shows the Gough plot in action pretty convincingly. If you have not pushed this hard, then you may be aware of how steering forces change...but then again, IMO -- one has to account for a lot more than just steering forces when on the limit of grip.

If the detail is in the game my DD wheel does an excellent job compared to my former gear. I actually think a good gear driven wheel would do better than a belt, thinking a belt drive may dampen sensation to a certain degree. Opinion of course.

In regards to at limit driving in game I find the exclusion of achieving good slip angle a bit frustrating. I'm so used to releasing the brake at just enough slide to rotate the car but not so much now. It could be the new linear pedal input or it's just not in the code. Time will tell but I agree, velocity and angle of approach are just as important as steering forces on the limit.

I want to do more steering angle testing because I see the issue. I'm not sure if it's Fanatec specific but I have to wait until tomorrow. It's my wife's birthday so I'll cook delicious foods instead of driving...

 

[JDMKING13]

If the detail is in the game my DD wheel does an excellent job compared to my former gear. I actually think a good gear driven wheel would do better than a belt, thinking a belt drive may dampen sensation to a certain degree. Opinion of course.

In regards to at limit driving in game I find the exclusion of achieving good slip angle a bit frustrating. I'm so used to releasing the brake at just enough slide to rotate the car but not so much now. It could be the new linear pedal input or it's just not in the code. Time will tell but I agree, velocity and angle of approach are just as important as steering forces on the limit.

I want to do more steering angle testing because I see the issue. I'm not sure if it's Fanatec specific but I have to wait until tomorrow. It's my wife's birthday so I'll cook delicious foods instead of driving...

Happy birthday to her I hope y’all turn up!!! Going of your steering angle point.. All I can say compared to GTS I’m barley turning the wheel. The rotation needed In GT7 is a lot shorter compared to GTS.

 

[dabz343]

In regards to at limit driving in game I find the exclusion of achieving good slip angle a bit frustrating. I'm so used to releasing the brake at just enough slide to rotate the car but not so much now. It could be the new linear pedal input or it's just not in the code.

Same here. Today I'm trying to overlap my throttle/brake inputs to see if that helps with rotation and getting mixed results. Sometimes I do get a nice sensation of roll and pitch though the wheel, but it's not consistent enough for me to rely on...but maybe I should not expect anything more than what is currently offered...

EDIT -- I'm signing off here, just received a 10 point warning for inappropriate behavior from GTP, go figure that one out... GL & HF!

 

[FA_Hayes]

Happy birthday to her I hope y’all turn up!!! Going of your steering angle point.. All I can say compared to GTS I’m barley turning the wheel. The rotation needed In GT7 is a lot shorter compared to GTS.

Thanks man. It will be a chill night. She doesn't turn up often but it's cool.

What wheel are you using? Also do me a favor and report back. Go cockpit view in some GR3 cars and tell me if the wheel matches at 180 degrees of rotation.

I'll do more observant testing and report but something is amiss for sure. Even though the steering ratios seem tighter by design what I see could also be hardware related given Fanatec's bugs.

Same here. Today I'm trying to overlap my throttle/brake inputs to see if that helps with rotation and getting mixed results. Sometimes I do get a nice sensation of roll and pitch though the wheel, but it's not consistent enough for me to rely on...but maybe I should not expect anything more than what is currently offered...

I've seen reports of slip angles not represented well in game and I can say that overlapping inputs isn't at all the same as GTS. Maybe thay took the whole "find your line" marketing pitch too far. I want to slide around the line damnit!

 

[Lalalalala]

@Scaff, Terronium-12
Does any of the gtplanet staff have a more direct communication with PD/Kaz? I used to remember Jordan? seemed to be in more direct contact previously.

I think aside from this physics thread and the bug thread, we need to create a thread that directly addresses to PD/Kaz to let them know the major issues/concerns we all have.

For example:
1) snap (uncontrollable) oversteer and unrealistic lack of grip on road rwd cars
2) missing content (gr2 or gr1 championships, endurance races, etc)
3) (semi) forced micro transactions due to severe lack of credits (cannot sell cars, was promoted as a feature, now missing)

 

[oqvist]

Doesn't get much simpler than this...


This is really an important concept when evaluating FFB in games. Perhaps the claimed 'detailed ffb' advantage from DD wheels is their ability to articulate the upper-end nuances? I can't say because I don't own one.



This Alfa shows the Gough plot in action pretty convincingly. If you have not pushed this hard, then you may be aware of how steering forces change...but then again, IMO -- one has to account for a lot more than just steering forces when on the limit of grip.

I use a DD using the old popular mige 20 nm motor on pc and the main benefit is it´s so direct. Gear and belts there is "input lag" just like on displays before you feel everything. It also feels more rigid and is more fun with more torque but that will in the end make you go slower on a hotlap though it can help with consistency being smoother and having to fight the wheel to do wrong. But your muscles having to overcome resistance also causes "input lag"

Since in most cars in real life you should make the suspension do the hard work for you though there is not always the same rules in driving games or sims like this. Getting from lock to lock fast seem to be the reason why gamepads can be so competitive in console optimized racing titles. Where on the pc sims you can still get quite fast but there is no records set using them.

For me for hotlapping least amount of internal resistance wins. I am always faster with the logitech G25-G27-G29 and so on. They are all essentially the same. Dual motors but virtually no resistance for countersteer and they can never owerpower you like powerful dd motors easilly can. On my mige there is still some resistance and the sheer mass of the shaft make for some inertia versus the logitech wheels. I hate the feel and it´s always frustrating when I spend 30 minutes hotlapping on my better wheels and then do two laps and beat the time on the logitech. I ain´t no hotlapper so I always end up selling my logitechs I owned the g25-G27 and PS 3 was the excuse for G29 . I ain´t buying the G923 for GT 7 just to get faster!

I am using the TS-PC now though as I preferr the feel of belt drive if I can´t use my simucube.

 

[Pickle_Rick74]

Yeah, I don’t think torque should be set too low. The game doesn’t translate bumps well with a low setting. I think the sensitivity needs to be turned up also for more pronunciation of road surface. If torque is 10 and sensitivity is 1, the wheel would just feel dead heavy and won’t react to surface bumps. With a low torque and high sensitivity, steering is light but the torque transmission isn’t enough to dictate steering movement. I set torque and sensitivity at both 8 and can’t really differentiate my actual car steering weight for the game in all driving conditions.

Actually the lower the sensitivity the more road feel you get. The higher sensitivity just centers the wheel more really. I watched a YouTube video on it and the guy said lower gives more feel, so I figured, why not give it a try. I have mine set at 1 now and the road feel is a lot more precise. I have the torque at 7 to stop my t300 from overheating.

 

[DPereira_2909]

Besides the accuracy of the physics I don't know how some people say they're not having fun. Even discounting all other features and focusing solely on driving the game's awesome.

Wrestling a 500/600/700/800hp+ diva, be it road or race car, be it powersliding every corner or setting a great time is a load of ****ing fun!

 

[HarVee]

3) (semi) forced micro transactions due to severe lack of credits (cannot sell cars, was promoted as a feature, now missing)

Personally I have this theory that they removed the ability to sell cars as not to bug out the collection book thing.

 

[Lalalalala]

Personally I have this theory that they removed the ability to sell cars as not to bug out the collection book thing.

In addition, for the roulette I have literally won nothing but the lowest prize... It's crazy.

 

[Jo3f1sh]

Been driving the 996 GT3 and while not better than the 997 it’s still a good car and easy to drive and this is on SH tires. I don’t know how you are having problem with racing tires?

Me either. I don't run any assists other than ABS. Coming out of slow turns in 2nd isn't too bad, it's mainly 3rd and 4th gear turns where the back just wants to keep turning. I've got rear downforce maxxed, and front downforce at a minimum, but it doesn't seem to do enough. The last downhill turn at Maggiore is the worst. I'm sawing at the wheel just trying to keep the car under control.

 

[RaceFace85]

Now I unocked the Nordschleife
In real life I have oversteering at 1 - 2 spots with the RX-8 and in GT7 I have oversteering at 42 spots with 1 spin and 1 snap oversteer with a crash. This is so funny. When you drive the car in real life oversteering is nearly impssoble over 60 km/h and in GT7 the speed doesn't matter. Oversteering is always possible. This would be extremely dangerous in Germany with the Autobahn exits. I cannot remember a recall action because of this dangerous behavior.

 

[platocplx]

Now I unocked the Nordschleife
In real life I have oversteering at 1 - 2 spots with the RX-8 and in GT7 I have oversteering at 42 spots with 1 spin and 1 snap oversteer with a crash. This is so funny. When you drive the car in real life oversteering is nearly impssoble over 60 km/h and in GT7 the speed doesn't matter. Oversteering is always possible. This would be extremely dangerous in Germany with the Autobahn exits. I cannot remember a recall action because of this dangerous behavior.

is this running it stock? Or with. Any tunes like better tires etc In game.