Gran Turismo 7 Update 1.52 Discussion Thread

[ZevZoq]

Had my G29 for about 7 months now...hundreds of hours use with basically zero issues. The microswitch on the right shift paddle would occasionally not engage early on but that issue hasn't occurred in some time now.

 

[h0tpotatoes]

Had my G29 for about 7 months now...hundreds of hours use with basically zero issues. The microswitch on the right shift paddle would occasionally not engage early on but that issue hasn't occurred in some time now.

Yeah I mean I’ve had this G29 for about 2 years now, thing was a champ as far as I could see, but you never know. Could be the game, could be the pedals. Quality control doesn’t seem to be Logitech’s strongest feature, but I know Polyphony is known for patching up one hole to tear a new one open.

 

[jlbmel]

Hey guys, brand spanking new here and have only played GT7 for a few months now. Upon hearing this new reveal for their new wheel, it makes me think and ask - G29/G293 owners, have you guys had any recent problems with your pedals? And as for all players; have you noticed your throttle input decreasing without TC or lifting your foot?

It’s very subtle if anything, but as I have been grinding out license tests and golding them, it’s very apparent in tests like Master IA-3 and S-4 that upon keeping the throttle flatout, the input fluctuates from 100 to 95-75% at random times. Of course, this would affect any car, but for cars like the WRX STI and the XJ220, these cars require very high throttle input to spool up, primarily the XJ220 (which I have tried over the course of 3 days with multiple stints per day). I have also only had this problem with the release of Update 1.52, and upon testing and recalibrating my pedals, I find no fluctuation between how much input I’m giving.

I would like to believe it’s just my rig and I may just need something else, but stuff like this turns my lap times from a 2:02.360 (my best with the issue) to a 2:03 with next to no differences in technique outside of adjusting the XJ’s AWFUL, AWFUL, UNBEARABLE understeer to find a smooth exit.

So yeah, somebody please let me know if I just need to git gud, find a better system that will last longer (even though I’m quite sure it’s not my pedals), or that you’re at least struggling with the same issue. Thanks!

This is a classic case of a dirty potentiometer. There are videos on how to clean them which is very easy to do. This should cure the problem for now, but it will happen again. After a few cleanings, the pot will fail completely and need to be replaced.

 

[P-Courty]

The pedals do suffer from poor potentiometers though and there is an upgrade you can buy (or cleaning them may fix the issue for you).

@h0tpotatoes this is the upgraded potentiometers, I couldn't find the web page when I wrote the other post.

Someone on this forum has them and has said that they are brilliant.

Potentiometer Upgrade Kit for Logitech G Series Pedals (v1.1) - G25/G27/G29/G920/G923

This kit replaces the standard Logitech pedal potentiometer with a high quality linear position sensor.

www.axc-sim.com

 

[Sir Crashalot]

Hm, I guess some people aren't that happy about this update😄

 

[LSFDRX]

WARNING: LONG RANT POST

Maybe there needs to be some time with YouTube and a Nurburgring crash compilation, just as a reminder what real cars, in real life, do when pushed to their limits.

I don't know what that will show other than unskilled drivers missing turn-in points, traffic issues, racing incidents etc.. I can't find any accident footage specific to a lone vehicle having issues with foxhole/compression because of compromised factory suspension calibration, but you're very likely to find a whole bunch of people overshooting Adenaur.

The discussion revolves around GT7 having some pretty terrible stock suspension setups. I don't think I've ever seen a car bottom out so hard in the foxhole (or anywhere) that it violently threw the steering wheel and flung the car off track. It would take a severely worn suspension setup in multiple areas (damping, steering, subframe mounting) for a car to completely give up going in a straight line under compression. Foxhole can be a challenging section of the track, but it isn't yeeting cars into the wall all day. The ring would be closed if that was the case.

It is obvious that with some vehicles in game there are MAJOR ISSUES with suspension compression, and sometimes this is correlated with unwanted steering input and the car exhibiting MASSIVE bump-steer.


Nobody can argue that there is "nothing wrong" when so many of us have observed and documented the issues for ourselves. You CAN NOT say "just change the suspension" as a fix for stock vehicles because stock vehicles SHOULD BE DRIVEABLE AS THEY ARE.

In my own recent experience, an EVO IIIs (stock suspension/dirt tires) rear jumped high enough to stand the car on its nose when hitting a dip at speed... this is not realistic behavior. The front suspension bounces several times when landing after a jump, which is worn/no damper behavior. Even if the springs were at max-soft the dampers would control them and prevent any form of excessive rebound, let alone the carnival-ride like bounce they are capable of in this model.

Some vehicle's suspension setups act like there is a pinball bumper reacting to severe compression by rapidly pushing back against compression which is further exacerbated by unusually soft initial setups. This behavior was been reduced in the latest update, but not fixed (see post 1.52 update EVO below). It is very much still there in more than a few cars, and is a real issue that needs to be fixed and points to bigger underlying problems.

If anyone watches @TumeK5 vette video and thinks "this is normal/fine" then you're simply WRONG. There is no debate about that. A C4 Vette (or any car in good repair from the last 50 years) will not violently react to suspension compression with thumb-shredding bumpsteer like that. I challenge anyone to find crashes/incidents related to the foxhole itself (or any other incidence of compression based control issues) and not driver error/racing incidents... or hell, ANY incident in which a car reacts uncontrollably after a compression event.

I don't get how saying "just fix it yourself", "stiffen things up" or "everything is fine" helps anything when there are obvious issues that are well documented (in here, in the physics thread, and in numerous other discussions). We all know tuning can fix things... that's not the point.

If you think this is all fine and normal you're just announcing how firmly your head is in the sand. Your opinion can be disregarded and you can go on your merry way, blissfully unaware of reality.

I don't have time for the back and forth today, but if you'd like to continue the discussion come find me in the paddock at the Glen. I'll be here all weekend.

Yes, cars can be loose under extreme braking, but immediately throwing the rear around under even light braking and "normal" bias? No... not at all...

No doubt this comment is an attempt at a cheeky little "I know what I'm talking about" feather in your cap, but in my track day experiences I find way more people that are out of their depth and frankly, scary, when it comes to being on track, so you being there means very little. Even some people that can talk-the-talk and give me a good impression in the paddock can be scarily unpredictable, worrisome, and slow. There is no way for us to know if you're a competent driver or if you frighten everyone in your group.

FWIW both my S6 and RX7 are pretty solid under threshold braking (monster brakes [Zimmerman rotors and Pagid pads] and ABS in the Audi, stock sized brakes and stainless lines with powerstop rotors, Hawk pads, Motul fluid, and no ABS on the RX). My previous MKII Golfs, or in the numerous other cars I've had the privilege to track: E46 M3, E60 M5, C5 Corvette Z06, SC'ed S197 Mustang, EVO 9 MR.... NONE of them ever made me white knuckle under braking. Squirm? Yes. Violently try to swap ends? No!

Off the top of my head in GT7 the GR Corolla, AMG A45, Audi R8 V10, and R34 GTR ALL have issues with the rear trying to come around on hard braking, even with the bias set all the way forward. They are death traps in this "state of tune", and this is NOT the way they behave in the real world. I was very much looking forward to the R8 V10 in GT7 and I hate it. It's absolutely ridiculous how unstable it is under braking... though I admit I haven't driven it since 1.52 and it may be better now.

Here's the A45 coming into the long L hand corner at the top of the hill at Miyabi. Threshold braking with very minimal corrective steering input and I'm STILL having to react and throw the wheel to opposite lock to gather up a monster slide. Any car that exhibited this behavior in stock form would be right back to the workshop figuring out what's wrong with the brakes or suspension setup before it killed somebody. I'm all for sliding and opposite lock, but this is ridiculous.

I test drive cars in part for a living and have done so for 20+ years.
In fact I have drilled the brakes in hundreds of cars from triple-digit speeds down to slow second-gear corners and I have never had a single one snap sideways into oblivion while braking like this in a STRAIGHT LINE on a LEVEL surface as a result, like some cars in the game do. So no, it’s not realistic whatsoever.
I hate the GT-Rs in GT7 for this exact reason—and they behaved that way before any of these recent physics updates. If I brake one of them the way I do in real life, they back their way into corners sideways to a silly degree that does not exist in real life. And the same goes for other cars that behave this way in the game. This isn’t conjecture, it’s a fact.
Certainly, I’m stating this in simple terms just to make the point about it not being realistic in game. For sure sometimes a car might get unstable depending on a variety of factors and the rear might get light and start to wobble which you have to account for as the driver. But I’ve never had a modern car even on stock tires spit itself 45° let alone 90° sideways on the initial pedal strike or very soon after like occurs in the game with certain vehicles.

This guy ^ gets it.


I am finding it pretty irritating, here and in the real world, to see so many people thinking in a binary/all-or-nothing mindset. Life exists in grey area and nuance, and is rarely about any 100% certainty.


GT7 can have issues AND do things right.

Some cars are good AND some are bad.

Some behaviors are expected AND some are unrealistic.

Many of us can love the game AND realize things still need to be fixed.

These things all exist at the same time...


TL;DR: GT7 is good AND still broken. This is not debatable.

 

[Voodoovaj]

View attachment 1395539

Hm, I guess some people aren't that happy about this update😄

The irony (and I admit, my first reaction was wtf?) is that this van has been a muse for so many. I myself have made a custom livery and I think it's funky. I also made a joke about the interior being customizable, but technically IT IS!! Mine is almost bare inside, although it does still have the rear benches.

I've gotten more out of this car update than I have with most of the others. Add to that, this livery has inspired me to make a few more flat black liveries.

WARNING: LONG RANT POST

I don't know what that will show other than unskilled drivers missing turn-in points, traffic issues, racing incidents etc.. I can't find any accident footage specific to a lone vehicle having issues with foxhole because of a compromised factory suspension calibration, but you're very likely to find a whole bunch of people overshooting Adenaur.

The discussion revolves around GT7 having some pretty terrible stock suspension setups. I don't think I've ever seen a car bottom out so hard in the foxhole that it violently threw the steering wheel and flung the car off track. It would take a severely worn suspension setup in multiple areas (damping, steering, subframe mounting) for a car to completely give up going in a straight line under compression. It can be a challenging section of the track, but it isn't yeeting cars into the wall all day. The ring would be closed if that was the case.

It is obvious that with some vehicles in game there are MAJOR ISSUES with suspension compression, and sometimes this is correlated with unwanted steering input with the car exhibiting MASSIVE bump-steer.


Nobody can argue that there is "nothing wrong" when so many of us have observed and documented the issues for ourselves. You CAN NOT say "just change the suspension" as a fix for stock vehicles because stock vehicles SHOULD BE DRIVEABLE AS THEY ARE.

In my own recent experience, an EVO IIIs (stock suspension/dirt tires) rear jumped high enough to stand the car on its nose when hitting a dip at speed... this is not realistic behavior. The front suspension bounces several times when landing after a jump, which is worn/no damper behavior. Some vehicle's suspension setups act like there is a pinball bumper reacting to severe compression by rapidly pushing back against compression which is further exacerbated by unusually soft initial setups. This behavior was been reduced in the latest update, but not fixed (see standing EVO post update 1.52 below). It is very much still there in more than a few cars, and is a real issue that needs to be fixed!

View attachment 1395533


If anyone watches @TumeK5 vette video and thinks "this is normal/fine" then you're simply WRONG. There is no debate about that. A C4 Vette (or any car in good repair from the last 50 years) will not violently react to suspension compression with thumb-shredding bumpsteer like that. I challenge anyone to find crashes/incidents related to the foxhole itself (or any other incidence of compression based control issues) and not driver error/racing incidents... or hell, ANY incident in which a car reacts uncontrollably after a compression event.

I don't get how saying "just fix it yourself", "stiffen things up" or "everything is fine" helps anything when there are obvious issues that are well documented (in here, in the physics thread, and in numerous other discussions). We all know tuning can fix things... that's not the point.

If you think this is all fine and normal you're just announcing how firmly your head is in the sand. Your opinion can be disregarded and you can go on your merry way, blissfully unaware of reality.


Yes, cars can be loose under extreme braking, but immediately throwing the rear around on even light braking and "normal" bias? No... not at all...

No doubt this comment is an attempt at a cheeky little "I know what I'm talking about" feather in your cap, but in my track day experiences I find way more people that are out of their depth and frankly, scary, when it comes to being on track, so you being there means very little. Even some people that can talk-the-talk and give me a good impression in the paddock can be scarily unpredictable, worrisome, and slow. There is no way for us to know if you're a competent driver or if you frighten everyone in your group.

FWIW both my S6 and RX7 are pretty solid under threshold braking (monster brakes [Zimmerman rotors and Pagid pads] and ABS in the Audi, stock sized brakes and stainless lines with powerstop rotors, Hawk pads, Motul fluid, and no ABS on the RX). My previous MKII Golfs, or in the numerous other cars I've had the privilege to track: E46 M3, E60 M5, C5 Corvette Z06, SC'ed S197 Mustang, EVO 9 MR.... NONE of them ever made me white knuckle under braking. Squirm? Yes. Violently try to swap ends? No!

Off the top of my head in GT7 the GR Corolla, AMG A45, Audi R8 V10, and R34 GTR ALL have issues with the rear trying to come around on hard braking, even with the bias set all the way forward. They are death traps in this "state of tune", and this is NOT the way they behave in the real world.

Here's the A45 coming into the long L hand corner at the top of the hill at Miyabi. Threshold braking with very minimal corrective steering input and I'm STILL having to react and throw the wheel to opposite lock to gather up a monster slide. Any car that exhibited this behavior in stock form would be right back to the workshop figuring out what's wrong with the brakes or suspension setup before it killed somebody. I'm all for sliding and opposite lock, but this is ridiculous.

View attachment 1395537

View attachment 1395538


This guy ^ gets it.


I am finding it pretty irritating, here and in the real world, to see so many people thinking in a binary/all-or-nothing mindset. Life exists in grey area and nuance, and is rarely about any 100% certainty.


GT7 can have issues AND do things right.

Some cars are good AND some are bad.

Some behaviors are expected AND some are unrealistic.

Many of us can love the game AND realize things still need to be fixed.

These things all exist at the same time...

TL;DR: GT7 is good AND still broken. This is not debatable.

Since I was called out, I will respond.

I ran the evo dirt event with a stock evo and experienced no such issue. In fact, I had half a mind to mention it here but thought it was irrelevant. It seems like you've found a bug. If you can repeat it, put it in the bugs thread. Again, I did the exact same thing and had no issue.

Also, regarding the image of you losing the rear with the Merc, I will respond with this TikTok account, where many cars exhibit the behaviour that you say is super uncommon. So, maybe the point that GT7 is "still broken" or broken at all IS indeed debateable.




I want to be clear, I'm not saying there are no issues. There are some, yes. However, is the game "broken"? no. It is completely playable with no issue the vast majority of the time and it's current better than it has been IMHO based on my experience.

 

[CMB350]

@h0tpotatoes this is the upgraded potentiometers, I couldn't find the web page when I wrote the other post.

Someone on this forum has them and has said that they are brilliant.

Potentiometer Upgrade Kit for Logitech G Series Pedals (v1.1) - G25/G27/G29/G920/G923

This kit replaces the standard Logitech pedal potentiometer with a high quality linear position sensor.

www.axc-sim.com

I had those on my rig when I was using the G29. It is a nice upgrade, however, I did find they also wear out after a lot of use. My accelerator would not go to 100% after many hours of use.

I would recommend buying a backup one to have as a spare.

 

[LSFDRX]

Since I was called out, I will respond.

I ran the evo dirt event with a stock evo and experienced no such issue. In fact, I had half a mind to mention it here but thought it was irrelevant. It seems like you've found a bug. If you can repeat it, put it in the bugs thread. Again, I did the exact same thing and had no issue.

Also, regarding the image of you losing the rear with the Merc, I will respond with this TikTok account, where many cars exhibit the behaviour that you say is super uncommon. So, maybe the point that GT7 is "still broken" or broken at all IS indeed debateable.

That video showed nothing even close to what I'm talking about, and in fact proved my point that NBR accident videos are driver error and racing incidents, not cars taking themselves out because of suspension compression.

The MKV Golf was the only thing remotely similar, but it is just an example of lift-throttle oversteer not being corrected at all by a ham-fisted driver... not wild, on-brake, super sudden, oversteer like we're talking about. These aren't the same things.

The rest of the video showed a EP3 Type-R getting too much curb and rolling (monster curbs are a known thing at the Ring, especially there), lots of normal understeer and oversteer... and a lot of normal driving. None of it supports any kind of point.

The EVOs bouncing is not a "bug" it's a symptom of an issue. It's well documented the bounciness that EVOs have been displaying. Now it's just muted and takes a bit more to upset them. I also probably drove more aggressively than you at that point in the track, flicking it hard over the out-road on the left, but it makes no difference. The car should not have enough stored uncontrolled energy in the damper to launch the rear 6ft in the air, I still had reverberating after-bounce following every jump, and no cars in real life do that if they have functioning dampers on them.

 

[Voodoovaj]

That video showed nothing even close to what I'm talking about, and in fact proved my point that NBR accident videos are driver error and racing incidents, not cars taking themselves out because of suspension compression.

The MKV Golf was the only thing remotely similar, but it is just an example of lift-throttle oversteer not being corrected at all by a ham-fisted driver... not wild, on-brake, super sudden, oversteer like we're talking about. These aren't the same things.

So it's in no way YOUR driver error?

The rest of the video showed a EP3 Type-R getting too much curb and rolling (monster curbs are a known thing at the Ring, especially there), lots of normal understeer and oversteer... and a lot of normal driving. None of it supports any kind of point.

It's an entire account full of examples.

The EVOs bouncing is not a "bug" it's a symptom of an issue. It's well documented the bounciness that EVOs have been displaying. Now it's just muted and takes a bit more to upset them. I also probably drove more aggressively than you at that point in the track, flicking it hard over the out-road on the left, but it makes no difference.

So again, NOT something you did?

The car should not have enough stored uncontrolled energy in the damper to launch the rear 6ft in the air, I still had reverberating after-bounce following every jump, and no cars in real life do that if they have functioning dampers on them.

Again, I will repeat, I have not experienced these issues, so I refute that the entire game is broken. I, an no point, ever sit down with the fear that something completely uncontrolled will happen.

If everyone was experiencing it all the time, then I would agree. The only knowledge i have of these issues are the posts on this site, so, there must be something that PEOPLE are doing to cause this...something. I'm not saying there isn't an issue, I'm saying that I don't experience it, and I drive pretty hard

I will try again this evening. See if I can take a completely stock car to these events and experience these issues.

 

[Nebuc72]

I can't believe people are honestly still pretending there's nothing wrong.

Go into the Clubman Cup+ event at Watkins Glen. Restart until there's a mondial on the grid, and watch it. That's all.

The suspension is knackered. It's bouncing all over the place, just completely fundamentally incorrect to how reality works. This is something that never happened before 1.49, and it's an AI car so I don't think changing settings will help anything!

 

[LSFDRX]

So it's in no way YOUR driver error?

It's an entire account full of examples.

So again, NOT something you did?

Again, I will repeat, I have not experienced these issues, so I refute that the entire game is broken. I, an no point, ever sit down with the fear that something completely uncontrolled will happen.

If everyone was experiencing it all the time, then I would agree. The only knowledge i have of these issues are the posts on this site, so, there must be something that PEOPLE are doing to cause this...something. I'm not saying there isn't an issue, I'm saying that I don't experience it, and I drive pretty hard

I will try again this evening. See if I can take a completely stock car to these events and experience these issues.

I'm a pretty experienced real-world driver that has participated in a few instruction courses (Bonderant, karting and smaller courses in TX and WA), done many autocross/HPDE/track days, have done a little bit of instruction myself (drift instruction at Evergreen speedway in WA), am an A/S driver in game, and have been obsessed with cars and car control for as long as I can remember. I also worked for several years diagnosing and repairing vehicle issues professionally. I'm no pro, but I'm no slouch either.

That account just shows all the same things any NBR compilation does, and NONE of it is a car exhibiting any kind of issues with suspension compression or unpredictable snap oversteer on heavy braking.

These suspension upsets didn't exist in game before 1.49, the braking issues have. Neither of them rely on anything I'm doing being out of the ordinary. This behavior should take drastic inputs to happen.

You can refute all you like, but between here, the physics thread, and many other places, the issues are well known, so I don't know what to tell you. You see the posts on the site, a place that aggregates GT7 experiences, yet you still don't believe it then I don't know where to go from there. I mean, just look at Tumeks post in the Vette. Stock suspension, SM tires, goes crazy at foxhole... there isn't anything he is doing to make that happen, and it is not just a "Vette is broken" bug, it's something that underpins many vehicles, and I feel is inherent through the entire model.

I can try to capture some on video, but I haven't had much time since school started back up to play, so that's probably not going to happen any time soon. The only reason I'm here today is because it's slow in the ER for the moment.

 

[Nebuc72]

I struggle to understand how you would actually not manage to notice that with the settings mentioned.

This was literally my first time logging on today (look at my miles), in a bone stock evo 3 on dirt tyres, and the first significant bump made the cars rear decide to hop up 3 feet higher than the front and cause the car to skirt on its front wheels for a good couple seconds.

It's just not how physics works. I would love to see an example of any sim, any game, or any real world footage where a singular bounce causes anything even remotely similar to this. There is 100% something wrong with how compression/rebound is simulated right now, and it doesn't understand how to handle high values.

 

[Voodoovaj]

I struggle to understand how you would actually not manage to notice that with the settings mentioned.

This was literally my first time logging on today (look at my miles), in a bone stock evo 3 on dirt tyres, and the first significant bump made the cars rear decide to hop up 3 feet higher than the front and cause the car to skirt on its front wheels for a good couple seconds.

It's just not how physics works. I would love to see an example of any sim, any game, or any real world footage where a singular bounce causes anything even remotely similar to this. There is 100% something wrong with how compression/rebound is simulated right now, and it doesn't understand how to handle high values.

Well, you are driving OFFROAD at high speed. Again, I did this event, and no issue. Then again, I wasn't looking to launch the car. I was looking to NOT launch the car by avoiding large undulations....you know, like one would if one were driving a street car offroad on street suspension.

I am almost 100% certain that, IRL, you'd also launch the car and break your suspension. None the less, again, I did this event and I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary. At least, not out of the ordinary according to my expectation of what is ordinary and expected.

Also, since the A45 was used as an example, at Kyoto Park, I went and tested it. I bought a brand new A45 and entered the event BONE STOCK



Btw @QuagDingo instead of a 💩 emoji, give us your opinion. Why do you think some experience issues while some, as evidenced by the video above, experience nothing? I'm pushing super hard...no strange behavior at all.


Remember, I am one of this game's harshest critics, but I have to give the devil his due.

 

[LSFDRX]

I struggle to understand how you would actually not manage to notice that with the settings mentioned.

This was literally my first time logging on today (look at my miles), in a bone stock evo 3 on dirt tyres, and the first significant bump made the cars rear decide to hop up 3 feet higher than the front and cause the car to skirt on its front wheels for a good couple seconds.

It's just not how physics works. I would love to see an example of any sim, any game, or any real world footage where a singular bounce causes anything even remotely similar to this. There is 100% something wrong with how compression/rebound is simulated right now, and it doesn't understand how to handle high values.

YES!! Thank you for saving me from going to make the same vid later!

What were you doing to make this happen?!?! Haha.

Does ANYONE want to try and rationalize this! I'd love to see someone try!

 

[Nebuc72]

Well, you are driving OFFROAD at high speed. Again, I did this event, and no issue. Then again, I wasn't looking to launch the car. I was looking to NOT launch the car by avoiding large undulations....you know, like one would if one were driving a street car offroad on street suspension.

I am almost 100% certain that, IRL, you'd also launch the car and break your suspension. None the less, again, I did this event and I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary. At least, not out of the ordinary according to my expectation of what is ordinary and expected.

Also, since the A45 was used as an example, at Kyoto Park, I went and tested it. I bought a brand new A45 and entered the event BONE STOCK



Btw @QuagDingo instead of a 💩 emoji, give us your opinion. Why do you think some experience issues while some, as evidenced by the video above, experience nothing? I'm pushing super hard...no strange behavior at all.


Remember, I am one of this game's harshest critics, but I have to give the devil his due.

I wasn't trying to launch the car, I was trying to drive it normally to see if it would happen, and it did.

None of that excuses what actually happened, which was the rear snapping into the air at an immediate rebound and forcing the car into gliding on the front bumper. Is it reasonable to expect a bit of a harsh landing? Sure. Is it reasonable to expect the laws of physics to be defied by mass momentum transfer upwards into only the rear of the car? No, of course not. That is where the problem is.

These things never happened before, which is sort of why this is an issue now. It would react reasonably beforehand, and reacts reasonably if you do it in most cars.

 

[Voodoovaj]

@LSFDRX @Nebuc72

I'm sorry, I'm just not seeing the issue here. You're expecting WRC suspension behaviour from what's supposed to be stock suspension OR you seem to forget that IRL, that shock towers would have punctured the floor and completely collapsed the suspension. You hit a bump, at high speed, on a low grade suspension. Ya, that's what is supposed to happen.

Here's WRC, with super expensive suspension specifically designed for off road...sure, these cars don't bounce back in the air. If this what you are expected from an old, stock, Mitsu evo?

 

[LSFDRX]

Well, you are driving OFFROAD at high speed. Again, I did this event, and no issue. Then again, I wasn't looking to launch the car. I was looking to NOT launch the car by avoiding large undulations....you know, like one would if one were driving a street car offroad on street suspension.

I am almost 100% certain that, IRL, you'd also launch the car and break your suspension. None the less, again, I did this event and I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary. At least, not out of the ordinary according to my expectation of what is ordinary and expected.

Also, since the A45 was used as an example, at Kyoto Park, I went and tested it. I bought a brand new A45 and entered the event BONE STOCK



Btw @QuagDingo instead of a 💩 emoji, give us your opinion. Why do you think some experience issues while some, as evidenced by the video above, experience nothing? I'm pushing super hard...no strange behavior at all.


Remember, I am one of this game's harshest critics, but I have to give the devil his due.

Driving a stock car offroad and hitting a bump doesn't turn any car into a trampoline. I've done a fair amount of spirited offroad driving in my own Impreza (lifted w/spacers and factory forester struts) and and not only has it never broken, it also has never bounced itself onto it's roof (or bounced at all, ever, even when it used to have rear dampers with literal holes in their body). Most vehicles are very resilient.

What settings are you using when you drove the A45? I only use ABS weak, and that might play into the looseness a bit. Default is just too planted most times.

Looking at the picture dates I have not have driven the A45 since the update and it may be a lot better than it used to be. The suspension issues are still a post 1.52 thing though.

 

[Nebuc72]

@LSFDRX @Nebuc72

I'm sorry, I'm just not seeing the issue here. You're expecting WRC suspension behaviour from what's supposed to be stock suspension OR you seem to forget that IRL, that shock towers would have punctured the floor and completely collapsed the suspension. You hit a bump, at high speed, on a low grade suspension. Ya, that's what is supposed to happen.

Here's WRC, with super expensive suspension specifically designed for off road...sure, these cars don't bounce back in the air. If this what you are expected from an old, stock, Mitsu evo?

No I'm expecting compression to not result in the rear of the car levitating off the ground. Stop being disingenuous.

 

[LSFDRX]

@LSFDRX @Nebuc72

I'm sorry, I'm just not seeing the issue here. You're expecting WRC suspension behaviour from what's supposed to be stock suspension OR you seem to forget that IRL, that shock towers would have punctured the floor and completely collapsed the suspension. You hit a bump, at high speed, on a low grade suspension. Ya, that's what is supposed to happen.

Here's WRC, with super expensive suspension specifically designed for off road...sure, these cars don't bounce back in the air. If this what you are expected from an old, stock, Mitsu evo?

If you're conflating a small bump in a road car to HUGE lofty jumps at 80+mph in purpose built rally cars then you've got some work to do on how correlation works, and how you're missing it entirely.

Go to any local rallycross event and tell me how many of the stock sprung cars there hit a bump and bounce like shown above. I'll tell you... ZERO. A stock car if taken off the jumps you showed in that video STILL wouldn't bounce. It would collapse and most things would be broken, sure, but it still wouldn't bounce off of it's springs like we're talking about.

All you folks posting videos that don't support your point are pretty funny.

 

[Voodoovaj]

@LSFDRX @Nebuc72

Ok, I tested it. As I expected, it is driver error. In this video you can see it on lap 3 and lap 4 (because I tried to make it happen on lap 4).

What's happening? It's pretty simple. If you hit the brakes at just the right time, you pitch the front forward. pitching the weight forward, and it rebounds less than the rear, getting that rear high "nose riding" behaviour, and yes this is expected behaviour. On lap 4 I just hoon and try to make something bad happen.

I find it hard to watch this video, see the car behave great through 4 laps, and then conclude that this is broken. Sorry, but I am literally not seeing the issues, and I did two video tests.



Edit, the car is a widebody, but otherwise completely stock

 

[Nebuc72]

@LSFDRX @Nebuc72

Ok, I tested it. As I expected, it is driver error. In this video you can see it on lap 3 and lap 4 (because I tried to make it happen on lap 4).

What's happening? It's pretty simple. If you hit the brakes at just the right time, you pitch the front forward. pitching the weight forward, and it rebounds less than the rear, getting that rear high "nose riding" behaviour, and yes this is expected behaviour. On lap 4 I just hoon and try to make something bad happen.

I find it hard to watch this video, see the car behave great through 4 laps, and then conclude that this is broken. Sorry, but I am literally not seeing the issues, and I did two video tests.



Edit, the car is a widebody, but otherwise completely stock

That's cool. I don't touch the brakes in my video, so try again.

 

[Voodoovaj]

That's cool. I don't touch the brakes in my video, so try again.

That's cool, I did four laps on video with no issue. Go figure. Maybe you're nitpicking?

 

[LSFDRX]

@LSFDRX @Nebuc72

Ok, I tested it. As I expected, it is driver error. In this video you can see it on lap 3 and lap 4 (because I tried to make it happen on lap 4).

What's happening? It's pretty simple. If you hit the brakes at just the right time, you pitch the front forward. pitching the weight forward, and it rebounds less than the rear, getting that rear high "nose riding" behaviour, and yes this is expected behaviour. On lap 4 I just hoon and try to make something bad happen.

I find it hard to watch this video, see the car behave great through 4 laps, and then conclude that this is broken. Sorry, but I am literally not seeing the issues, and I did two video tests.



Edit, the car is a widebody, but otherwise completely stock

Driver error... haha, ok. Braking and turning into a corner... got it. Ha ha.

In your video the front end continually rebounds excessively on most of the jumps, and you stay center/right of the track where I have the issue with the rear coming up, braking very straight down the hill whereas I'm usually closer to the fence on the left. The way your car kicked up on the 4th lap looked okay, not terribly far from what I would expect the car to do there, and it may be that the specific spot I'm hitting on the left is a bigger bump/hole, but it takes a BIG bump to send a car ass over tea-kettle onto its roof, bigger than anything there.

We also don't know if the widebody changes any part of a vehicles handling either. I don't imagine that it does, but we don't know that it doesn't.

Either way, we're probably not going to see eye to eye on this, so it is what it is. Me and others think this isn't normal, you and others do... going forward I'll try to keep better track of the issues as I play.

I just hope that as GT7 goes on, things improve instead of creating oddities for us to ramble about.

 

[Marcus Garvey]

WARNING: LONG RANT POST

I don't know what that will show other than unskilled drivers missing turn-in points, traffic issues, racing incidents etc.. I can't find any accident footage specific to a lone vehicle having issues with foxhole/compression because of compromised factory suspension calibration, but you're very likely to find a whole bunch of people overshooting Adenaur.

The discussion revolves around GT7 having some pretty terrible stock suspension setups. I don't think I've ever seen a car bottom out so hard in the foxhole (or anywhere) that it violently threw the steering wheel and flung the car off track. It would take a severely worn suspension setup in multiple areas (damping, steering, subframe mounting) for a car to completely give up going in a straight line under compression. Foxhole can be a challenging section of the track, but it isn't yeeting cars into the wall all day. The ring would be closed if that was the case.

It is obvious that with some vehicles in game there are MAJOR ISSUES with suspension compression, and sometimes this is correlated with unwanted steering input and the car exhibiting MASSIVE bump-steer.


Nobody can argue that there is "nothing wrong" when so many of us have observed and documented the issues for ourselves. You CAN NOT say "just change the suspension" as a fix for stock vehicles because stock vehicles SHOULD BE DRIVEABLE AS THEY ARE.

In my own recent experience, an EVO IIIs (stock suspension/dirt tires) rear jumped high enough to stand the car on its nose when hitting a dip at speed... this is not realistic behavior. The front suspension bounces several times when landing after a jump, which is worn/no damper behavior. Even if the springs were at max-soft the dampers would control them and prevent any form of excessive rebound, let alone the carnival-ride like bounce they are capable of in this model.

Some vehicle's suspension setups act like there is a pinball bumper reacting to severe compression by rapidly pushing back against compression which is further exacerbated by unusually soft initial setups. This behavior was been reduced in the latest update, but not fixed (see post 1.52 update EVO below). It is very much still there in more than a few cars, and is a real issue that needs to be fixed and points to bigger underlying problems.

View attachment 1395533


If anyone watches @TumeK5 vette video and thinks "this is normal/fine" then you're simply WRONG. There is no debate about that. A C4 Vette (or any car in good repair from the last 50 years) will not violently react to suspension compression with thumb-shredding bumpsteer like that. I challenge anyone to find crashes/incidents related to the foxhole itself (or any other incidence of compression based control issues) and not driver error/racing incidents... or hell, ANY incident in which a car reacts uncontrollably after a compression event.

I don't get how saying "just fix it yourself", "stiffen things up" or "everything is fine" helps anything when there are obvious issues that are well documented (in here, in the physics thread, and in numerous other discussions). We all know tuning can fix things... that's not the point.

If you think this is all fine and normal you're just announcing how firmly your head is in the sand. Your opinion can be disregarded and you can go on your merry way, blissfully unaware of reality.


Yes, cars can be loose under extreme braking, but immediately throwing the rear around under even light braking and "normal" bias? No... not at all...

No doubt this comment is an attempt at a cheeky little "I know what I'm talking about" feather in your cap, but in my track day experiences I find way more people that are out of their depth and frankly, scary, when it comes to being on track, so you being there means very little. Even some people that can talk-the-talk and give me a good impression in the paddock can be scarily unpredictable, worrisome, and slow. There is no way for us to know if you're a competent driver or if you frighten everyone in your group.

FWIW both my S6 and RX7 are pretty solid under threshold braking (monster brakes [Zimmerman rotors and Pagid pads] and ABS in the Audi, stock sized brakes and stainless lines with powerstop rotors, Hawk pads, Motul fluid, and no ABS on the RX). My previous MKII Golfs, or in the numerous other cars I've had the privilege to track: E46 M3, E60 M5, C5 Corvette Z06, SC'ed S197 Mustang, EVO 9 MR.... NONE of them ever made me white knuckle under braking. Squirm? Yes. Violently try to swap ends? No!

Off the top of my head in GT7 the GR Corolla, AMG A45, Audi R8 V10, and R34 GTR ALL have issues with the rear trying to come around on hard braking, even with the bias set all the way forward. They are death traps in this "state of tune", and this is NOT the way they behave in the real world. I was very much looking forward to the R8 V10 in GT7 and I hate it. It's absolutely ridiculous how unstable it is under braking... though I admit I haven't driven it since 1.52 and it may be better now.

Here's the A45 coming into the long L hand corner at the top of the hill at Miyabi. Threshold braking with very minimal corrective steering input and I'm STILL having to react and throw the wheel to opposite lock to gather up a monster slide. Any car that exhibited this behavior in stock form would be right back to the workshop figuring out what's wrong with the brakes or suspension setup before it killed somebody. I'm all for sliding and opposite lock, but this is ridiculous.

View attachment 1395537

View attachment 1395538


This guy ^ gets it.


I am finding it pretty irritating, here and in the real world, to see so many people thinking in a binary/all-or-nothing mindset. Life exists in grey area and nuance, and is rarely about any 100% certainty.


GT7 can have issues AND do things right.

Some cars are good AND some are bad.

Some behaviors are expected AND some are unrealistic.

Many of us can love the game AND realize things still need to be fixed.

These things all exist at the same time...


TL;DR: GT7 is good AND still broken. This is not debatable.

If you turn on stability control in the game, you will find the cars behave much more like you would expect from modern stock production cars to with all their safety systems intact and operating. I wager most people are driving cars with stability control turned off in game, whereas the cars they are driving have these systems catching the cars long before it gets that far in real life.

Using the GTR from another post as an example, this is how GTRs drive with just VDC turned off, doing exactly as described, backing itself in on entry braking...and even then, torque vectoring is always on.



I'm not home to test this but I suspect that if you turn stability control, the car will behave less like the above and more like you would expect.

 

[rsspyder21]

WARNING: LONG RANT POST

I don't know what that will show other than unskilled drivers missing turn-in points, traffic issues, racing incidents etc.. I can't find any accident footage specific to a lone vehicle having issues with foxhole/compression because of compromised factory suspension calibration, but you're very likely to find a whole bunch of people overshooting Adenaur.

The discussion revolves around GT7 having some pretty terrible stock suspension setups. I don't think I've ever seen a car bottom out so hard in the foxhole (or anywhere) that it violently threw the steering wheel and flung the car off track. It would take a severely worn suspension setup in multiple areas (damping, steering, subframe mounting) for a car to completely give up going in a straight line under compression. Foxhole can be a challenging section of the track, but it isn't yeeting cars into the wall all day. The ring would be closed if that was the case.

It is obvious that with some vehicles in game there are MAJOR ISSUES with suspension compression, and sometimes this is correlated with unwanted steering input and the car exhibiting MASSIVE bump-steer.


Nobody can argue that there is "nothing wrong" when so many of us have observed and documented the issues for ourselves. You CAN NOT say "just change the suspension" as a fix for stock vehicles because stock vehicles SHOULD BE DRIVEABLE AS THEY ARE.

In my own recent experience, an EVO IIIs (stock suspension/dirt tires) rear jumped high enough to stand the car on its nose when hitting a dip at speed... this is not realistic behavior. The front suspension bounces several times when landing after a jump, which is worn/no damper behavior. Even if the springs were at max-soft the dampers would control them and prevent any form of excessive rebound, let alone the carnival-ride like bounce they are capable of in this model.

Some vehicle's suspension setups act like there is a pinball bumper reacting to severe compression by rapidly pushing back against compression which is further exacerbated by unusually soft initial setups. This behavior was been reduced in the latest update, but not fixed (see post 1.52 update EVO below). It is very much still there in more than a few cars, and is a real issue that needs to be fixed and points to bigger underlying problems.

View attachment 1395533


If anyone watches @TumeK5 vette video and thinks "this is normal/fine" then you're simply WRONG. There is no debate about that. A C4 Vette (or any car in good repair from the last 50 years) will not violently react to suspension compression with thumb-shredding bumpsteer like that. I challenge anyone to find crashes/incidents related to the foxhole itself (or any other incidence of compression based control issues) and not driver error/racing incidents... or hell, ANY incident in which a car reacts uncontrollably after a compression event.

I don't get how saying "just fix it yourself", "stiffen things up" or "everything is fine" helps anything when there are obvious issues that are well documented (in here, in the physics thread, and in numerous other discussions). We all know tuning can fix things... that's not the point.

If you think this is all fine and normal you're just announcing how firmly your head is in the sand. Your opinion can be disregarded and you can go on your merry way, blissfully unaware of reality.


Yes, cars can be loose under extreme braking, but immediately throwing the rear around under even light braking and "normal" bias? No... not at all...

No doubt this comment is an attempt at a cheeky little "I know what I'm talking about" feather in your cap, but in my track day experiences I find way more people that are out of their depth and frankly, scary, when it comes to being on track, so you being there means very little. Even some people that can talk-the-talk and give me a good impression in the paddock can be scarily unpredictable, worrisome, and slow. There is no way for us to know if you're a competent driver or if you frighten everyone in your group.

FWIW both my S6 and RX7 are pretty solid under threshold braking (monster brakes [Zimmerman rotors and Pagid pads] and ABS in the Audi, stock sized brakes and stainless lines with powerstop rotors, Hawk pads, Motul fluid, and no ABS on the RX). My previous MKII Golfs, or in the numerous other cars I've had the privilege to track: E46 M3, E60 M5, C5 Corvette Z06, SC'ed S197 Mustang, EVO 9 MR.... NONE of them ever made me white knuckle under braking. Squirm? Yes. Violently try to swap ends? No!

Off the top of my head in GT7 the GR Corolla, AMG A45, Audi R8 V10, and R34 GTR ALL have issues with the rear trying to come around on hard braking, even with the bias set all the way forward. They are death traps in this "state of tune", and this is NOT the way they behave in the real world. I was very much looking forward to the R8 V10 in GT7 and I hate it. It's absolutely ridiculous how unstable it is under braking... though I admit I haven't driven it since 1.52 and it may be better now.

Here's the A45 coming into the long L hand corner at the top of the hill at Miyabi. Threshold braking with very minimal corrective steering input and I'm STILL having to react and throw the wheel to opposite lock to gather up a monster slide. Any car that exhibited this behavior in stock form would be right back to the workshop figuring out what's wrong with the brakes or suspension setup before it killed somebody. I'm all for sliding and opposite lock, but this is ridiculous.

View attachment 1395537

View attachment 1395538


This guy ^ gets it.


I am finding it pretty irritating, here and in the real world, to see so many people thinking in a binary/all-or-nothing mindset. Life exists in grey area and nuance, and is rarely about any 100% certainty.


GT7 can have issues AND do things right.

Some cars are good AND some are bad.

Some behaviors are expected AND some are unrealistic.

Many of us can love the game AND realize things still need to be fixed.

These things all exist at the same time...


TL;DR: GT7 is good AND still broken. This is not debatable.

You make some good points, and I totally agree that GT7 is very good while simply having issues that still need to be fixed.

Just as a fun aside, I once hit the bottom of the Foxhole in real life in a 2008 AMG SL63 and the compression load told the car to fire off the rollover bar because the sensors thought the car was flipping over. The compression event didn't cause me to lose control let alone crash, but the unexpected fright from the loud BANG from the rollover bar directly behind my head while hitting the bottom of the hill at around 120 mph easily could have caused someone to do just that, if only from an involuntary physical reaction on the wheel and/or pedals in response to the noise LOL

If you turn on stability control in the game, you will find the cars behave much more like you would expect from modern stock production cars to with all their safety systems intact and operating. I wager most people are driving cars with stability control turned off in game, whereas the cars they are driving have these systems catching the cars long before it gets that far in real life.

Using the GTR from another post as an example, this is how GTRs drive with just VDC turned off, doing exactly as described, backing itself in on entry braking...and even then, torque vectoring is always on.



I'm not home to test this but I suspect that if you turn stability control, the car will behave less like the above and more like you would expect.

This is also a good point I hadn't considered when I posted what I did on the subject while being somewhat tired late last night. The cars in the game affected badly by this trait are for sure unrealistic, but that GT-R video is interesting. I've driven GT-Rs on the track, but not in many years, and while I don't recall ever having this issue, I also can't recall if I ran with the stab control fully off. I probably didn't, so I may not have been aware of how poor the underlying dynamics might be in this regard. Personally, you're absolutely correct that I'm running everything in the game with TC/ESC switched off. Now you have me interested, I'm going to try that GT-R I just drove the other day for one of the weekly challenge races and turn stab on and see if it reduces or even eliminates that effect.

 

[Overnight]

• The GT-R Safety Car is now eligible for Nissan GT-R Cup events.

I didn't understand exactly

How I understood it: can it race like everyone else or has it become a show car now?

 

[RACECAR]

• The GT-R Safety Car is now eligible for Nissan GT-R Cup events.

I didn't understand exactly

How I understood it: can it race like everyone else or has it become a show car now?

From what I understand, you were not able to race it in the Nissan GT-R Cup events previously despite it being a Nissan GT-R itself (that you can even get from the Nissan showroom) just with some lights. With this update, now you can.

 

[JDMKING13]

If you turn on stability control in the game, you will find the cars behave much more like you would expect from modern stock production cars to with all their safety systems intact and operating. I wager most people are driving cars with stability control turned off in game, whereas the cars they are driving have these systems catching the cars long before it gets that far in real life.

Using the GTR from another post as an example, this is how GTRs drive with just VDC turned off, doing exactly as described, backing itself in on entry braking...and even then, torque vectoring is always on.



I'm not home to test this but I suspect that if you turn stability control, the car will behave less like the above and more like you would expect.

I’m going to have to agree with you on this driving with stability control on VS off makes a huge difference..

 

[mynameis66]

But should you have to turn on driver aids to fix a problem that wasnt there prior to the update?
Ive always found the GTR,s to be fairly planted,they were my go to cars to grind on Tokyo,but not so much so now.
The Yaris with engine swap was great around Tokyo prior to the update but now I have to apply what I class as unrealistic suspension settings to get it near to what it was.
Just because not everybody is having issues doesnt mean they dont exist,the 'driver error' excuse for thesr issues is just crap.Just my opinion.