Gran Turismo Physics(Poll)

[Exorcet]

Gran Turismo will never be hardcore because they want to keep casuals.

I'm saying it's not totally mutually exclusive. Even PD themselves tried to offer two paths with standard/sim physics and then with SRF on/off. Making it more realistic doesn't mean you'll drive people away. As it is, because of physics inaccuracies, GT can be more difficult than the real thing.

The type of hardcore I'm talking about is needing a wheel and driving rig just to play the game. No DS3 compatibility at all.

Hardcore doesn't mean you take away as many options as possible. No matter how hardcore GT gets, I don't see a reason why you'd need a wheel.

When you get onto the track, you feel like the car is physically around you and your seat rumbles when you hit the edge of the track. The car doesn't hit a bump or a wall and hop into the air or go from 200 MPH to 50, but it spins out or rolls and tumbles into the grass. Things that real cars do when they hit a stationary object. To do that, along with the high demands on processing power for dynamics rendering, they might as well move the game to PC instead. Something that specific, that niche in the gaming world, would never generate the revenue to make profits.

This sounds like the game I posted before, only with cars and that sounds like PC racing sims which seem to be profitable enough to exist. None of this sounds like something beyond the reach of current hardware.

It might be fun to some people but, I believe at that point, it would be more aimed toward novice drivers that are preparing for actual races.

For a good while GT seemed to benefit from the idea that it was the most realistic driving game available. People bought it because they thought it was a copy of reality, even if they weren't necessarily great at it. It might be because cars are something that the average person can access in real life, so it feels closer to most people than say, a flight sim would. I'm not convinced that a hardcore simulation must exclude the more casual crowd. Between options and casual interest in a non casual experience, you should be able to cover both ends without having to make the compromises seen in current GT games.

Maybe PS4 will have the hardware to improve GT7 immensely over 6, but it still won't be a driving simulator.

I'm sure PS3 has enough power to improve over GT6's physics. It's more about what PD wants at this point. It's already a simulator, just not one concerned with being overly realistic.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Not being able to adjust something doesn't mean it is not simulated.

Except that it's not. The tire model in GT is probably it's biggest weakness physics wise and it's why the more serious sims put so much effort into tire modeling. The tires don't retain heat for more than a second or two, there's no sidewall flex or tire deformation to speak of, no adjustable air pressure, camber didn't work until recently but it should also affect how tires pick up and shed heat which affects grip etc. etc. etc.
GT6 has the best physics on the PS system there's no doubt, but there's also little competition these days on the PS either. The competition is coming and at least one of them is putting a ton of work into the tire model.

 

[raweer]

Because to simulate tire air pressure GT needs more complex end realistic tire model which will lead to more realistic physics.

... perhaps something like that (iRacing, "Ruf RT 12R C-Spec"). r.

 

[Stotty]

I was just giving this a bit more thought and it did occur to me that the physics feel more realistic if you fit sensible tyre compounds to the cars - for example, a 458 on comfort tyres is much, much nicer to drive (and far more of a challenge) than on sports hards.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Yeah, sims are hard, modern society is lazy. So most people just go casual...

No wonder only a few visits my garage and enjoyed my tune/replica and on the other hand, the rest of them flock to mainstream tuner famous since GT5

 

[tomcat66]

Agreed, but a pedant might be keen to point out that Gran Turismo is a driving simulator. Or at least it calls itself that.

Very true. And being a "simulator" it is also no "game" by definition. Maybe that is the reason why it is not very funny at all.

 

[Starciller]

I believe a simulation should be difficult when you have no real life experience with whatever they're trying to simulate.

I think of GT6 as "simcade" because, I, a 15 year old with next to no real life driving experience, shouldn't be able to lap Le Mans in a 908 at the same speed as pro drivers. That was done on racing hard tires, no aids at all, not even ABS, a tune and no power mods.

Assetto Corsa on the other hand, I can barely keep the car on track at any given moment. Having to heel-toe under braking just to maintain stability is something you can't even do in GT6. The game automatically rev matches for you and when you try to rev-match with an H-pattern it automatically throws you into neutral. I'm not entirely sure but is that what happens in real life?

I'm unsure how that can be considered a simulation when it takes away a large part of interaction with the car.

 

[sparkytooth]

I'll go with #4, needs more options though.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Therefor PD should consider separate GT Pro game or mode.

No one will buy it, for MANY MANY reasons, not the least of which is the gap between a person's perception of them being an awesome racer and the reality that they are far from it.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Because to simulate tire air pressure GT needs more complex end realistic tire model which will lead to more realistic physics.

What you showed in the video was artistic simulation which may or may not have any real impact on that game...and GT6 does it as well if you look close.

Just curious, but do you know what adjusting tire pressure does in reality on a race track?

(MASSIVE GENERALIZATION WARNING)
For those who do not, if you are going to a track day, you generally alter tire pressure to increase or decrease your contact patch. Generally speaking, you want to get maximum contact patch without sacrifices too much tire lateral tire movement. I have more experience on this point with motorcycles than cars and I am sure there are additional considerations given you have four corners to deal with. On an F1 car, they also use it as suspension damping (which is why they run such high sidewalls). I could get into tire degradation as well, but I am not a fan of see walls of text.

...I would not want to have to deal with this as well.

 

[super_gt]

No one will buy it, for MANY MANY reasons, not the least of which is the gap between a person's perception of them being an awesome racer and the reality that they are far from it.

I'll buy it,and more specific I will pre-order this game with PS4.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I believe a simulation should be difficult when you have no real life experience with whatever they're trying to simulate.

I think of GT6 as "simcade" because, I, a 15 year old with next to no real life driving experience, shouldn't be able to lap Le Mans in a 908 at the same speed as pro drivers. That was done on racing hard tires, no aids at all, not even ABS, a tune and no power mods.

Assetto Corsa on the other hand, I can barely keep the car on track at any given moment. Having to heel-toe under braking just to maintain stability is something you can't even do in GT6. The game automatically rev matches for you and when you try to rev-match with an H-pattern it automatically throws you into neutral. I'm not entirely sure but is that what happens in real life?

I'm unsure how that can be considered a simulation when it takes away a large part of interaction with the car.

Modern transmission are syncromeshed so you don't have to heel and toe to get them to work. In older cars it was necessary to heel and toe or double clutch to get the gears to mesh on a downshift. GT takes it to an extreme though. You can downshift any time into any gear on any car regardless of it's age, with perfect synchronization and little to no added transmission braking effect. Upshifts are also perfect in every car again regardless of age, with no delay in gear engagement. The transmission model is very "arcadish" for lack of a better word.

 

[GTracer98]

I believe a simulation should be difficult when you have no real life experience with whatever they're trying to simulate.

I think of GT6 as "simcade" because, I, a 15 year old with next to no real life driving experience, shouldn't be able to lap Le Mans in a 908 at the same speed as pro drivers. That was done on racing hard tires, no aids at all, not even ABS, a tune and no power mods.


I'm unsure how that can be considered a simulation when it takes away a large part of interaction with the car.

Though I partly agree with you on the fact that cars in real life are tougher to drive, the difficulty of real life racing lies largely on the forces and exhaustion you feel in the car. And then there's the fear of death or injury. That's something a simulator will never be able simulate. That's one the reasons you can lap the 908 at similar paces as the real drivers: you're probably sitting very comfy on a sofa, not having any fear or fatigue.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Except that it's not. The tire model in GT is probably it's biggest weakness physics wise and it's why the more serious sims put so much effort into tire modeling.

BINGO!

As discussed in the tuning forum, in GT the CHASSIS controls a car's grip. The tires are just modifiers. The tires SHOULD give cars equal grip, but instead a car's stock tire dynamics are mimicked in the chassis and you can do nothing to fix it.

I would totally be in favour of having them move grip out of the chassis and completely onto the tires. Leave the chassis to deal with flex, weight, track and wheelbase.

 

[Scaff]

What you showed in the video was artistic simulation which may or may not have any real impact on that game...and GT6 does it as well if you look close.

A massive amount of testing has shown little to no evidence of this being modeled in GT at all, as such while it could be modeled in the simulation but not graphically, nothing actually points to that at all. As such evidence that this is the case would be needed.

Just curious, but do you know what adjusting tire pressure does in reality on a race track?

Yes

(MASSIVE GENERALIZATION WARNING)
For those who do not, if you are going to a track day, you generally alter tire pressure to increase or decrease your contact patch. Generally speaking, you want to get maximum contact patch without sacrifices too much tire lateral tire movement. I have more experience on this point with motorcycles than cars and I am sure there are additional considerations given you have four corners to deal with. On an F1 car, they also use it as suspension damping (which is why they run such high sidewalls). I could get into tire degradation as well, but I am not a fan of see walls of text.

...I would not want to have to deal with this as well.

Tyre pressure affects tyre temperatures (how quickly it builds and cools, under what loads, etc.) and is massively important in being able to set camber correctly, which in turn changes grip and wear.

Which is why its considered pretty much a standard in anything wanting to be a full blown sim.

 

[Voodoovaj]

I'll buy it,and more specific I will pre-order this game with PS4.

Well, unless you are prepared to pay the 20 million dollar cost, one sale isn't going to cut it

Also, with iRacing and other more in depth simulators out there already, for those who do not like GT, it's tough to justify.

 

[Scaff]

Modern transmission are syncromeshed so you don't have to heel and toe to get them to work. In older cars it was necessary to heel and toe or double clutch to get the gears to mesh on a downshift.

And while that may be fine on the road, its actually a rather big issue on the track.

GT takes it to an extreme though. You can downshift any time into any gear on any car regardless of it's age, with perfect synchronization and little to no added transmission braking effect. Upshifts are also perfect in every car again regardless of age, with no delay in gear engagement. The transmission model is very "arcadish" for lack of a better word.

Now that I agree with.

 

[Voodoovaj]

A massive amount of testing has shown little to no evidence of this being modeled in GT at all, as such while it could be modeled in the simulation but not graphically, nothing actually points to that at all. As such evidence that this is the case would be needed.

Take a car with a high tire profile (I used the Mach1 mustang). Go around a corner. Look at the replay and pause. You will see the tire sidewall flex

Does it make a difference in the game? not that I can tell.

Tyre pressure affects tyre temperatures (how quickly it builds and cools, under what loads, etc.) and is massively important in being able to set camber correctly, which in turn changes grip and wear.

Which is why its considered pretty much a standard in anything wanting to be a full blown sim.

Yes yes yes...and it's a pain dealing with it. You spend more time in the pits than on track. I have actually thrown my hands up and tossed new tires on my bike rather than continue losing daylight dealing with it (at the time, Pirelli's were easier to deal with than my Michelins) They could also get into tire construction and carcass types. Do they simulate Pirelli or do they simulate Bridgestone? Bias ply for the cars from the 60's? They could do TONS that many on this forum would appreciate.

However, given that the vast majority of players can't negotiate a corner without SRF, true tire simulation might be overkill...that's all I'm saying.

 

[lGNAl]

The game (or any other racing game) will never be a full simulator.

- Companies like PD will try to compensate the feel of the car under you ,when you're driving in real life, by making the wheel (for wheel user's) feel way heavier than in real road cars.

- Hardware. There aren't any wheels that have the same turning radios as road cars. The features that come with/lacking, makes the wheels even worse. Like a proper handbrake stick/handle, which is very important for drifting and rallying. Both of which are a big part of GT. In games it's either off or on, there's no leverage.

- Another thing missing in games is G force. I'm sure it makes a ton of difference.

So even if the physics were perfect, it still wouldn't feel real.

 

[et_]

When it comes to tire pressure, there is an optimum value that do not change, just like camber. its not something you change to change the balance of the car.
@Scaff : I'd say it's the other way around, tire temperature affects tire pressure. Small difference, but still.👍

And GT does not simulate tyre pressure buildup, or tyre flex. at least not visually, but it could very well simulate it physically? After all it does simulate tyre heat buildup decently, and also overheating, however it does that pretty badly. Also, iracing doesn't simulate overheating that good either.

 

[super_gt]

Well, unless you are prepared to pay the 20 million dollar cost, one sale isn't going to cut it

Also, with iRacing and other more in depth simulators out there already, for those who do not like GT, it's tough to justify.

It is not only me that will buy GT Pro

 

[Voodoovaj]

At a certain point, it makes more sense to simulate a pit crew to whom you give feedback.

I want more front grip, more rear grip, etc, etc, etc.

As with the Warthog video in this thread, I don't want to have to earn an engineering degree in order to drive a Honda Civic.

 

[raweer]

It is not only me that will buy GT Pro

... no, i'm with you r.

 

[Stotty]

I believe a simulation should be difficult when you have no real life experience with whatever they're trying to simulate.

I think of GT6 as "simcade" because, I, a 15 year old with next to no real life driving experience, shouldn't be able to lap Le Mans in a 908 at the same speed as pro drivers. That was done on racing hard tires, no aids at all, not even ABS, a tune and no power mods.

Assetto Corsa on the other hand, I can barely keep the car on track at any given moment. Having to heel-toe under braking just to maintain stability is something you can't even do in GT6. The game automatically rev matches for you and when you try to rev-match with an H-pattern it automatically throws you into neutral. I'm not entirely sure but is that what happens in real life?

I'm unsure how that can be considered a simulation when it takes away a large part of interaction with the car.

The reason the vast majority buy GT is to live out their racing driver dreams/fantasies... Who wants a game where your fantasies and dreams are shattered because you can hardly keep a car on the road?

Fine if cars are difficult to drive, or take a lot of effort to get the best out of, but there's no point in building something that requires you to have the real life skills of a top LMP1 driver to get the est out of - the market for a game like that would be miniscule!

However, there are some tweaks PD could implement to make it more realistic and still keep the game accessible... blocking downshifts that would buzz the engine (and lock up the driven wheels) would be a small fix.

 

[varmintx]

How anyone can pick something other than the 4th option is beyond my comprehension.

 

[Scaff]

Take a car with a high tire profile (I used the Mach1 mustang). Go around a corner. Look at the replay and pause. You will see the tire sidewall flex

Can't say I've noticed it at all.

Does it make a difference in the game? not that I can tell.

That I would agree on.

Yes yes yes...and it's a pain dealing with it. You spend more time in the pits than on track. I have actually thrown my hands up and tossed new tires on my bike rather than continue losing daylight dealing with it (at the time, Pirelli's were easier to deal with than my Michelins) They could also get into tire construction and carcass types. Do they simulate Pirelli or do they simulate Bridgestone? Bias ply for the cars from the 60's? They could do TONS that many on this forum would appreciate.

Why does it have to be an all or nothing option?

The physics could take into account all of these areas and then give the player the option of a 'pit mechanic' who advises or sets up for the player. Its perfectly possible to have both.

However, given that the vast majority of players can't negotiate a corner without SRF, true tire simulation might be overkill...that's all I'm saying.

Citation required.

Its been included in a good number of titles without any major problem at all.

@Scaff : I'd say it's the other way around, tire temperature affects tire pressure. Small difference, but still.👍

Actually it would be more accurate to say its a kind of chicken and egg situation, temp affects pressure and pressure affects temp. However if you take a tyre at 'track temp' before driving and lower the pressure you will struggle to build and maintain heat as you start to drive, do the opposite and the opposite will happen with temp.

Pressure most definitely affects temperature, far more than most people realize, which is why not being able to adjust it is such a pain.

And GT does not simulate tyre pressure buildup, or tyre flex. at least not visually, but it could very well simulate it physically? After all it does simulate tyre heat buildup decently, and also overheating, however it does that pretty badly. Also, iracing doesn't simulate overheating that good either.

I would argue (based on the available evidence) that GT models the outcome based on some very basic data (if temp +x over initial temp then grip = grip-Y), which certainly doesn't seem to take into account the effect of pressure and/or tyre flex.

How anyone can pick something other than the 4th option is beyond my comprehension.

Why?

Its four subjective options based upon a set of subjective criteria. Any and all of which (given the almost infinite number of ways they could be subjectively viewed) are quite within the bounds of being held.

Its (in my opinion) far stranger to believe that any one of these is objective enough to be considered the only option worth considering![/user]

 

[Stotty]

The line between options 2 and 4 comes down to whether you think the holes in the engine are significant or not.

For me, a driving game which doesn't represent something as basic as lift-off oversteer in a FWD car, or creates oversteer when I release the brakes (err... the weight transferring in the other direction, dummy) cannot be called a simulation.

It means the fundamentals of weight transfer are not modelled correctly, and this is the most important part of the engine.

 

[Vagabond]

Although not everyone will have the opportunity or means to test the theory, all one actually has to do is drive a real car on a track, at the limit and then duplicate the car/tyre combo in GT; it quickly becomes evident that the tyre mechanics are not modelled correctly in GT. Behaviour during changes in load are only one of the things that seem to behave in opposition to reality.

 

[GregOr1971]

I believe a simulation should be difficult when you have no real life experience with whatever they're trying to simulate.

I think of GT6 as "simcade" because, I, a 15 year old with next to no real life driving experience, shouldn't be able to lap Le Mans in a 908 at the same speed as pro drivers. That was done on racing hard tires, no aids at all, not even ABS, a tune and no power mods.
.

Maybe you should reconsider using some SH-SM tires ? I know their definition is "sports" and they visualy have profile/they're not slicks , but not everything in GT land is what it seems to be at first glance. Try it.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...f-tires-your-experiences-and-opinions.312216/

 

[Starciller]

Though I partly agree with you on the fact that cars in real life are tougher to drive, the difficulty of real life racing lies largely on the forces and exhaustion you feel in the car. And then there's the fear of death or injury. That's something a simulator will never be able simulate. That's one the reasons you can lap the 908 at similar paces as the real drivers: you're probably sitting very comfy on a sofa, not having any fear or fatigue.

I agree completely; I feel no fear when sitting in front of a television inside of an air conditioned home where as the driver is sitting in a 100 degree or more fahrenheit car. I'm sure I would have been slower had I felt fear and had the physical stress put upon me.

The reason the vast majority buy GT is to live out their racing driver dreams/fantasies... Who wants a game where your fantasies and dreams are shattered because you can hardly keep a car on the road?

Fine if cars are difficult to drive, or take a lot of effort to get the best out of, but there's no point in building something that requires you to have the real life skills of a top LMP1 driver to get the est out of - the market for a game like that would be miniscule!

However, there are some tweaks PD could implement to make it more realistic and still keep the game accessible... blocking downshifts that would buzz the engine (and lock up the driven wheels) would be a small fix.

That's why I described GT6 as Simcade. In my eyes a simulator should live up to its name; giving someone the near same experience as if it were real life.

I believe GT6 should stay a Simcade game. I enjoy running laps around tracks the same speeds as pro racers; but I also enjoy being given the whole experience of a full on simulator and knowing what the drivers have to deal with when controlling the car.

I wouldn't mind PD adding what you've suggested with the downshifts. It would be a nice option for you to select or deselect so you can race it as a simulator if you want, or an arcadish drive with some friends.

Maybe you should reconsider using some SH-SM tires ? I know their definition is "sports" and they visualy have profile/they're not slicks , but not everything in GT land is what it seems to be at first glance. Try it.

I'll definitely give it a try next time I play the game. PC sim racing has me hooked so it might be a couple days.