Gran Turismo Physics(Poll)

[Zer0]

And GT does not simulate tyre pressure buildup, or tyre flex. at least not visually, but it could very well simulate it physically?

Probably, but until the GT6 replays can be played in ultra-slow speed it would be very difficult to prove anything. The game 30fps replays can't display much of the subtleness which happens during the game physical rate and without visually modelled tyre deformations, no photo can be taken as a proof. The same applies to the absence of a detailed telemetry screen data to check what happens internally. So, guesses appears in many flavours. Pick what suit better what you feel in the game.

Tyre Modelling
With the help of our technical partner, the Yokohama Rubber, a new tyre model has been introduced that reflects the tyre compound, tyre structure, and changes in characteristics under extreme load conditions.
http://www.gran-turismo.com/gb/news/00_4937863.html

 

[GTracer98]

Probably, but until the GT6 replays can be played in ultra-slow speed it would be very difficult to prove anything. The game 30fps replays can't display much of the subtleness which happens during the game physical rate and without visually modelled tyre deformations, no photo can be taken as a proof. The same applies to the absence of a detailed telemetry screen data to check what happens internally. So, guesses appears in many flavours. Pick what suit better what you feel in the game.

Tyre Modelling
With the help of our technical partner, the Yokohama Rubber, a new tyre model has been introduced that reflects the tyre compound, tyre structure, and changes in characteristics under extreme load conditions.
http://www.gran-turismo.com/gb/news/00_4937863.html

That gif seems to show some tyre flex. Not very detailed but there is some.

 

[Stotty]

Clear enough from that video that GT6 doesn't model tyre deformation or side wall flex visually.

Looks like the tyre is modelled in 2 parts... the sidewall and the treaded area, and when under load the game simply reduced the amount of visible treaded area. There's no sidewall 'bulge' as the rear lands from the kerb, and no flex in the front tyre (which is clearly understeering fairly hard).

 

[GTracer98]

Clear enough from that video that GT6 doesn't model tyre deformation or side wall flex visually.

Looks like the tyre is modelled in 2 parts... the sidewall and the treaded area, and when under load the game simply reduced the amount of visible treaded area. There's no sidewall 'bulge' as the rear lands from the kerb, and no flex in the front tyre (which is clearly understeering fairly hard).

You mean, the tyre doesn't get wider when under load?

 

[Zer0]

Clear enough from that video that GT6 doesn't model tyre deformation or side wall flex visually.

Looks like the tyre is modelled in 2 parts... the sidewall and the treaded area, and when under load the game simply reduced the amount of visible treaded area. There's no sidewall 'bulge' as the rear lands from the kerb, and no flex in the front tyre (which is clearly understeering fairly hard).

That would be if you wrongly asume that the physics necessarily need to be linked visually in order to being processed in the simulation.

What shows that gif is some load simulated in the tyre during the jump. Not more can be represented visually without a deforming model in a graphical form.

 

[Stotty]

You mean, the tyre doesn't get wider when under load?

Yes.

The sidewall doesn't compress (and bulge) as it would in real life... the lower part of the tyre (the 'treaded area') simply 'disappears'... makes it look like the tyre is compressing, but it's not really.

The gap between the edge of the rim and the edge of the tyre wall (the lighter black band) remains constant. The darker black area (the tread) simply disappears as the rear tyre lands from the kerbing.

At the front, the tyre remains vertical despite being relatively high profile and being under load as it understeers across the track.

That would be if you wrongly assume that the physics necessarily need to be linked visually in order to being processed in the simulation.

What shows that gif is some load simulated in the tyre during the jump. Not more can be represented visually without a deforming model in a graphical form.

That's why I used the term 'visually'... I didn't say the game doesn't model it in the way the car behaves.

 

[GTracer98]

Here's a video I found which shows tyre behaviour under load. WARNING: LOUD SOUND!

Yes.

The sidewall doesn't compress (and bulge) as it would in real life... the lower part of the tyre (the 'treaded area') simply 'disappears'... makes it look like the tyre is compressing, but it's not really.

The gap between the edge of the rim and the edge of the tyre wall (the lighter black band) remains constant. The darker black area (the tread) simply disappears as the rear tyre lands from the kerbing.

At the front, the tyre remains vertical despite being relatively high profile and being under load as it understeers across the track.

Now I see, I guess PD simply didn't model it visually. The question is, how much is that modeled physics wise?

 

[super_gt]

Great onboard video

 

[Stotty]

Now I see, I guess PD simply didn't model it visually. The question is, how much is that modeled physics wise?

Well, it models understeer and the effect this has on tyre temperature for example. A tyre sliding under lateral load gains heat and loses more grip.

Whether it models understeer caused by sidewall flex/roll alone is another question... personally I suspect not as fitting bigger diameter wheels (with lower profile tyres) doesn't affect the handling/grip.

More likely (IMO), the handling characteristics of a car with high sidewalls is built in to that particular cars handling model, rather than the different elements being modelled separately... with stickier tyres being a simple grip multiplier with a change to the rate at which grip disappears/comes back - hence stickier tyres being less progressive.

Edit...

I think this video show very clearly how a tyre behaves in real life under vertical and lateral load - and this is with what looks like a very well located rear end and a low profile tyre. Imagine what that would look like with a 70 profile tyre and a live axle!!

 

[Jump_Ace]

Voted that GT6 is a simulation (without SRF!) but want better physics *gazes into PCars alluring eyes*


Jerome

 

[et_]

@Stotty : You keep coming back to the lift off oversteer on FWD cars, and I'd like to add that it is present in GT6, in some cars more than others, and setup changes makes for a huge difference. I remember the VW Scirocco Seasonal TT, where I actually managed to spin off coming into first corner, when I lifted off the throttle at the wrong time.

Back on the tire debate:
While I think the tyre flex is not visible, I still think they have programmed the engine to simulate tyre flex physically, however I believe its the same flex regardless of what tire profile you use, and what rubber compound you use. making it a bit wrong, but I dont see that as a major problem really...
So in essence, fitting lower profile tires is just visual, and better tires is just a grip multiplier.

 

[super_gt]

for hardcore racing sim Vote here
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/any-plans-for-a-racing-sim.310476/#post-9839488
for Tire Air Pressure vote here
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/tire-air-pressure-tuning.298252/

 

[Voodoovaj]

Clear enough from that video that GT6 doesn't model tyre deformation or side wall flex visually.

Looks like the tyre is modelled in 2 parts... the sidewall and the treaded area, and when under load the game simply reduced the amount of visible treaded area. There's no sidewall 'bulge' as the rear lands from the kerb, and no flex in the front tyre (which is clearly understeering fairly hard).

But, to play devil's advocate, it does show tire compression and (on the front) tire deformation from lateral force. Granted the whole tire is moving rather than jst the part closest to the ground...but is that in game or pre rendered?

 

[Venny_]

GT is a sim, but the weight shift physics and such need to be fixed.

 

[super_gt]

When it comes to tire pressure, there is an optimum value that do not change, just like camber. its not something you change to change the balance of the car.
.

Actually in this particular case they have changed the car balance using the tire air pressure:

 

[Squach240]

I voted it is a sim. still the best sim on a console in terms of physics. equal grounds to race pro on the x360.

 

[stash]

The better you are at driving the more realistic the game becomes.

 

[NixxxoN]

They're good enough for me because they feel realistic and fun to play at the same time.

It must not be too realistic if its not fun to play, because at the end, more simulator or less simulator, its a game, a game that people (in general) buy to have fun, and if a game is not fun to play, then its not good, and people (in general) will not buy it.

 

[super_gt]

They're good enough for me because they feel realistic and fun to play at the same time.

It must not be too realistic if its not fun to play, because at the end, more simulator or less simulator, its a game, a game that people (in general) buy to have fun, and if a game is not fun to play, then its not good, and people (in general) will not buy it.

Sim=fun for me

 

[Johnnypenso]

There's no reason you can't make the most realistic physics possible on console and then allow users whatever aids they need if they choose to use them. SRF is pretty much a cure all for everything on every car, TC helps control wheelspin, ABS not only helps with braking but it's a magical stabilizer. And RS tires make everything possible for even the noobiest of noobs. If someone can't drive cars with all those aids on, they should probably be looking at something more on the arcade side and more forgiving.
Even if people don't use all the cool physics and mask everything with all the above features, they like to be able to tell their friends, "I play Gran Turismo, it's a racing simulator, Forza is just a game". Bragging rights, goes a long way towards a feeling of ownership and repeat business.

 

[Johnnypenso]

oops...

 

[Voodoovaj]

Justy check the tires in game...got up close with the camera when they should be deformed. I checked all for corners and both sides and they all looked exactly the same.

I could swear it was there and I know there was a video showing it off prior to release. Maybe it was yanked to get the framerate back up. ????

 

[NixxxoN]

Sim=fun for me

Not for the casuals. You have to think for the whole GT community which includes casuals.
I'd say GT should be a game which can be fun for both casuals and pro-simulation and I think always has tried to be like this.
In my case I really like GT physics and I'm close to 100% simulation player but not the extreme.

 

[Imari]

The better you are at driving the more realistic the game becomes.

I'd have said the opposite, the better you are at driving the more apparent the deficiencies in Gran Turismo's simulation method become.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Not for the casuals. You have to think for the whole GT community which includes casuals.
I'd say GT should be a game which can be fun for both casuals and pro-simulation and I think always has tried to be like this.
In my case I really like GT physics and I'm close to 100% simulation player but not the extreme.

Driving aids buddy, driving aids.

 

[ScottPuss20]

You can feel the width of whatever tyre you're driving on. You see, on muscle cars (like the Dodge Charger, especially when tuned) struggles to get a grip due to the width of the tyre in proportion the width of the vehicle. When turning in to a corner really hard, the rear tyre which is under load has smoke coming off it, indicating the grip limits. When driving a car with fatter tyres, you don't feel the stress as much. The Ferrari 458 Italia is just as wide as the Charger, but has bigger tyres so there's no need to fight for grip. That's one aspect of simulation which has been represented well

 

[synon]

The competition is coming and at least one of them is putting a ton of work into the tire model.

Will they have the budget to enable them to collect real world data such as T10 did with Calspan and PD did with Yokohama?

This is why we can't have nice things.

I'm not sure how you jump from a discussion on physics to a conclusion about what options people want

 

[Exorcet]

Not for the casuals. You have to think for the whole GT community which includes casuals.

Why not for the casuals? GT is a car game, even casual players may drive cars daily in real life. It might create a stronger desire for realism in them than in other genres where simulation is much more obscure. More realism also doesn't mean more difficulty. GT5 had lots of flaws that makes driving more difficult than it should be like overly sensitive brakes or ridiculously low tire grip for some cars.

I'd say GT should be a game which can be fun for both casuals and pro-simulation and I think always has tried to be like this.
In my case I really like GT physics and I'm close to 100% simulation player but not the extreme.

Why do both types need to be forced to play exactly the same? The whole point of driver assists and alternate physics (SRF) is to avoid that.

GT wants to be a game for all comers, that doesn't mean it should avoid ultra realism.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Will they have the budget to enable them to collect real world data such as T10 did with Calspan and PD did with Yokohama?

I can't say for sure, but if I had to guess I don't think it's very expensive for this sort of stuff. On a relative shoestring they've modeled 75 cars in ultra-high detail and 40+ tracks and licensed both LeMans and the Indy 500. I think manufacturers bend over backwards to be in these games for the fun factor and the relatively cheap advertising. But I'm not a PCars member so I can't say for sure. Might be able to find out if you're interested though.

Can you point out how this data from Yokohama has improved PD tire modeling? Is it in heat dissipation? Tire flex? Camber? Tire pressure?

 

[synon]

I can't say for sure, but if I had to guess I don't think it's very expensive for this sort of stuff. On a relative shoestring they've modeled 75 cars in ultra-high detail and 40+ tracks and licensed both LeMans and the Indy 500. I think manufacturers bend over backwards to be in these games for the fun factor and the relatively cheap advertising. But I'm not a PCars member so I can't say for sure. Might be able to find out if you're interested though.

Can you point out how this data from Yokohama has improved PD tire modeling? Is it in heat dissipation? Tire flex? Camber? Tire pressure?

It appears the Pcars tire model is based on feedback from a couple of race drivers and the members, which makes sense as the members are a sample of likely players.