Gran Turismo Sport: General Discussion

[Imari]

Also, to be fair to Poly, imagine how annoying it is working to a fixed console spec, as they have done during the entire span of the company, and then Sony just move the goalposts as they're getting ready to finally get something out...

Hardly. If Sony are getting ready to release Neo now, then there has to have been at least a couple of years of design, hardware negotiations and testing beforehand. Polyphony might not have had set in stone specs for the machine until recently, but they certainly would have known that there was a second machine coming as soon as anybody would have.

If they're being caught out by this then that's on them. Not to mention that they can absolutely go the easy route of making the PS4 and Neo versions identical (as I suppose all pre-Neo games will be when played on the Neo, and probably a bunch of third party games for a year or so after Neo release), or simply throw in a few minor graphical tweaks that they know are safe. There are easy outs for them in this if they want to avoid delays.

 

[jm79]

In fact, all considered, it's very odd that it's taking this long in the first place.

Yeah, this.

And fair points on the rest.

Super sick of all this now. 6 (SIX!) months from the trailer, nada.

 

[jm79]

Hardly. If Sony are getting ready to release Neo now, then there has to have been at least a couple of years of design, hardware negotiations and testing beforehand. Polyphony might not have had set in stone specs for the machine until recently, but they certainly would have known that there was a second machine coming as soon as anybody would have.

If they're being caught out by this then that's on them. Not to mention that they can absolutely go the easy route of making the PS4 and Neo versions identical (as I suppose all pre-Neo games will be when played on the Neo, and probably a bunch of third party games for a year or so after Neo release), or simply throw in a few minor graphical tweaks that they know are safe. There are easy outs for them in this if they want to avoid delays.

Yeah, all fair.

It was my last desperate shot at trying to think of PD as anything other than totally fricking useless.

Lol

 

[super_gt]

I'm not sure what kind of braking you meant, full force from beginning to stop in straight line ?

Exactly

If you still have GT6 and play it, download some of the replays that I often included in my garage replica posts, you can see how I used the brake balance as stated in the tune post.

Sorry,I sold it.

 

[Scaff]

Yeah, all fair.

It was my last desperate shot at trying to think of PD as anything other than totally fricking useless.

Lol

Also given that Kaz is on the SCE board as a VP, PD would have know about this before the majority of people within Sony, let alone other first or third party devs.

It's what always made me bang my head slightly about his (Kaz) moans about the PS3 being a limit, he was in a position to know about it before just about anyone else and have a potential influence on the damn thing (same with the PS4).

 

[jm79]

Also given that Kaz is on the SCE board as a VP, PD would have know about this before the majority of people within Sony, let alone other first or third party devs.

It's what always made me bang my head slightly about his (Kaz) moans about the PS3 being a limit, he was in a position to know about it before just about anyone else and have a potential influence on the damn thing (same with the PS4).

Yeah, he's a high up guy eh. Even for a 1st party, he's very close to the top. Maybe that's why they're so useless - because they have very few people to answer to within Sony, so just do their own thing.

Hard deadlines and a good bollocking every now and then work wonders for productivity, lol.

 

[Soundtrack]

It's what always made me bang my head slightly about his (Kaz) moans about the PS3 being a limit, he was in a position to know about it before just about anyone else and have a potential influence on the damn thing (same with the PS4).

What kind of influence could he have? Sony were making a huge loss on the original PS3 hardware due to the original optical drive exorbitant price. Savings where done on the gaming capabilities like the deletion of half the initial memory. What is the weight of one franchise when your objective is to establish a new video delivery format? By the way at what time where PD informed their game would become Sony’s PSVR racing game flagship? Wasn’t Driveclub the initial candidate for the role? Funny where already talking delays when no clear date has been set yet and that we blame PD for being PD as usual.

 

[Imari]

Funny where already talking delays when no clear date has been set yet and that we blame PD for being PD as usual.

It's the 20th of April, Polyphony haven't said boo for six months, let alone any information about their "early" 2016 beta. If something turns up in the next week and a half then sure, but it seems unlikely. It's reasonable to start expecting the delay now, and then if somehow it doesn't happen then that's a nice surprise.

And given that total silence is Polyphony's usual mode of communication, I fail to see how this is not PD being PD as usual. This is what they do. Make an announcement, and then fail to follow up on it. It's a poor system, but they seem to use it a lot.

 

[TS050]

Funny where already talking delays when no clear date has been set yet and that we blame PD for being PD as usual.

We are 10 days away from the end of 'Early 2016'.

We were expected a beta in this time frame, and yet, we have had an iota of information since the game was announced.

I don't know about you, but I'm beginning to feel like the game will be delayed. Sadly.

 

[Scaff]

What kind of influence could he have? Sony were making a huge loss on the original PS3 hardware due to the original optical drive exorbitant price. Savings where done on the gaming capabilities like the deletion of half the initial memory. What is the weight of one franchise when your objective is to establish a new video delivery format? By the way at what time where PD informed their game would become Sony’s PSVR racing game flagship? Wasn’t Driveclub the initial candidate for the role?

Given that as VP for Sony Computer Entertainment I would say that he has the second highest level of influence within SCE, care to name one other studio head who would have even close to that level of influence or early hardware access who has developed on the Playstation platform (and that will have included PSVR - or do you honestly believe they kept the company VP out of the loop on that one)? As a studio head his influence and access to hardware is pretty much unparalleled within the entire industry.

As far as the PS3 making a loss at launch, that could be applied to just about every console released ever, its hardly a unique factor to the PS3, quite the opposite its the norm.

Funny where already talking delays when no clear date has been set yet and that we blame PD for being PD as usual.

Zero communication from PD for six months, a Facebook account that repeats the same thing to every question (maybe, tell you soon) and a target date period that is as near as damn it past.

Who else would you say is responsible for the lack of communication?

 

[jm79]

It's the 20th of April, Polyphony haven't said boo for six months, let alone any information about their "early" 2016 beta. If something turns up in the next week and a half then sure, but it seems unlikely. It's reasonable to start expecting the delay now, and then if somehow it doesn't happen then that's a nice surprise.

And given that total silence is Polyphony's usual mode of communication, I fail to see how this is not PD being PD as usual. This is what they do. Make an announcement, and then fail to follow up on it. It's a poor system, but they seem to use it a lot.

Yeah, sorry Soundtrack chap, but I think we can say that the total silence on this 'Beta' indicates a major fail of communication and production.

After all, they definitely announced something, within a time period which is now almost over.

 

[Brend]

Arguing that 'PD never gave a date' is like your waiter saying your food will be ready soon and accepting that it still hasn't shown up 4 hours later.

If GTS was not ready to be unveiled it shouldn't have been. Simply put, all its caused is hysteria for the fans who are totally confused about what's happening.

There's no 'big bad PD' strawman here, just simple incompetence from a PR perspective.

 

[Soundtrack]

@Imari @TS040 My point is that if there is a pattern we may need to look at how Sony industrial and commercial objectives may or not influence PD's progress on their game in general. No need to start another "early" vs "Spring" debate. PSVR could explain a change of trajectory in a similar way E3 could explain no news on the game has been released so far. No matter how you see it PD is a subsidiary of Sony.

@jm79 no need to feel sorry, we are allowed to have different opinions

 

[jm79]

Arguing that 'PD never gave a date' is like your waiter saying your food will be ready soon and accepting that it still hasn't shown up 4 hours later.

If GTS was not ready to be unveiled it shouldn't have been. Simply put, all its caused is hysteria for the fans who are totally confused about what's happening.

There's no 'big bad PD' strawman here, just simple incompetence from a PR perspective.

PR incompetence, hiding development incompetence, is the follow-on assumption...

So sad it's got like this. None of us on here are demanding anything impossible, like THE GAME, NOW!
In fact, the opposite, we just want some info, any info.

 

[Imari]

PSVR could explain a change of trajectory...

Not really. PSVR/Morpheus has been in development for quite a long time. Sony had been working on it for three years in 2014, Wiki tells me. So that's before GT6 and PS4.

A driving game like Gran Turismo is a shoo-in for a virtual reality experience, a number of other simulation games have added Oculus support on PC while there were only development kits available. If Polyphony and Sony haven't been thinking of a PS4 Gran Turismo being VR capable from the very beginning then that's just terrible, terrible planning. Any moderately enthusiastic simulation racer would be able to tell them that it was a good idea.

So really, they should have been planning GT+VR since before GT6, so it can't really explain any potential changed situations now. Unless they're completely incompetent and nobody at Sony or Polyphony thought to use GT as a platform for VR and they strongarmed the requirement at the last minute. But I don't believe that, that would require complete idiocy and willful ignorance from way, way too many people in Sony and Polyphony.

Whatever is going on, it's not VR being sprung on them at the last moment. For lack of any other information, one might assume that it's the same story that we've had for the last ten years: Polyphony have designed and attempted to build a game that is beyond both the hardware and their manpower capabilities, and now are running into problems polishing it into something worthy of a AAA first party title.

 

[Turnaround]

...So sad it's got like this. None of us on here are demanding anything impossible, like THE GAME, NOW!...

Though really, releasing the beta now shouldn't be impossible considering they announced it 6 months ago with a target time-frame.

...hiding development incompetence...

Sadly, an assumption supported by the fact that Polyphony spent the entire PS3 generation taking a long, long time to develop games that ultimately lacked in key areas compared to the rest of the genre. Refer to Scaff's analysis of what GT is lacking in just the physics alone; namely the lack of torque steer and an unrealistic low speed tire model (and that's far from covering everything that's wrong, like camber, gear changing, aerodynamics etc). In fact, take a look at any This Vs GT threads and note that GT was not strong in any of them.

Seems like the situation is getting worse.

Edit: Actually, I should've said "beta" and not "game" since it was a beta that was given a release window and not the full game.

 

[Soundtrack]

If Polyphony and Sony haven't been thinking of a PS4 Gran Turismo being VR capable from the very beginning then that's just terrible, terrible planning.

Are you suggesting Sony where confident their initial PS4 specs where save to run a GT game at 90/120fps? Shortsighted planning is not out of the equation indeed.

 

[tillbot8]

I'm am pretty sure I am in the minority here, but the fact that the PS4 upgrade has been all but confirmed relives me a bit on the subject of PD keeping stuff so close to their chest! They obviously cant disclosing any information if they are working in tandem with Sony in implementing the extra power into GT Sport! I'm sure there was a full non-disclosure agreement in place! Therefore no pics, no screenshots, no vids etc! People would assume they would be bullshots, ask PD if they were and would only get silence back which would bring up more questions than answers! This is of course only speculation and guessing but an educated guess if nothing else! Them Jag cores are an issue though regardless of anything else! 60fps is a must! I am quietly optimistic but am well aware of Kaz's reach exceeding his grasp before!

 

[super_gt]

Arguing that 'PD never gave a date' is like your waiter saying your food will be ready soon and accepting that it still hasn't shown up 4 hours later.

 

[GTEFGHA]

I'm am pretty sure I am in the minority here, but the fact that the PS4 upgrade has been all but confirmed relives me a bit on the subject of PD keeping stuff so close to their chest! They obviously cant disclosing any information if they are working in tandem with Sony in implementing the extra power into GT Sport! I'm sure there was a full non-disclosure agreement in place! Therefore no pics, no screenshots, no vids etc! People would assume they would be bullshots, ask PD if they were and would only get silence back which would bring up more questions than answers! This is of course only speculation and guessing but an educated guess if nothing else! Them Jag cores are an issue though regardless of anything else! 60fps is a must! I am quietly optimistic but am well aware of Kaz's reach exceeding his grasp before!

How exactly do you know that they are "working in tandem with Sony in implementing the extra power into GT Sport"

 

[Mendori]

Bring os the dame Beta of Gran Turismo Sport. Y is there nothing news on this game PD? So glad I have the Xbox One allso

 

[ImaRobot]

I'm am pretty sure I am in the minority here, but the fact that the PS4 upgrade has been all but confirmed relives me a bit on the subject of PD keeping stuff so close to their chest! They obviously cant disclosing any information if they are working in tandem with Sony in implementing the extra power into GT Sport!

Why, though? How is that stopping them from saying "This game is going to consist of this and that" ? Revealing some information about what's going to be going on within the game, that isn't vague, will do nothing to reveal any sort of significant information concerning the PS4 upgrade. We have no idea what their limit is, or was, so it would be hard to guess what things where implemented because of the new hardware.

 

[jm79]

View attachment 539053

 

[JKgo]

....That is creepy.

 

[tillbot8]

How exactly do you know that they are "working in tandem with Sony in implementing the extra power into GT Sport"

Just from the fact that Kaz is a VP in Sony, he surely heard about it before! And Kaz likes more power! It's just an opinion I am not stating anything!

 

[civicgsir]

Probably OT, but anybody have the pic or video of Kaz doing a presentation of GT5 I think at a game show, and it list all the features and items to be featured in the game? Want to say it was a burgundy backdrop with white text.

 

[synon]

Arrives at a different phase of acceleration, torque steer from the car is occurring from the moment driven force is applied, environmental factors require the car to Gabe started moving a distance.

I don't quite know what you mean by a different phase of acceleration. Wouldn't the environment affect the tires' traction straight away? eg if the car is moving, the tires will have different loadings etc.

Your mixing the affect (steering wheel will also turn) with the cause which is differential yaw rates at each corner. Unless you are referring to the steering axis of each tire.

However even in that case, as tyres are not solid objects, the steering will take time to catch up with the steer effect, as the contact patch flexes and distorts. As such it's not just a ffb effect.

There's also a force on the steering from eg unequal angled drive-shafts for cars with transverse engines etc.

Torque steer for FWD cars usually refers to the steering pulling in one direction, it's certainly the most noticeable effect.

 

[TurismoBad]

So if third party games have to come out with "normal" and "neo" modes then GTS, being first party will also probably have these.

It only makes sense to use your biggest IP to push your new stuff.

Now this could come in various forms.

Looks the same but holds 60FPS more on neo.

Looks the same runs the same but it have:

bigger grids

better graphics

GTS VR - heavily gimped on regular PS4, same game as non VR on neo

In any case - I would imagine selling a PS4 right now would net anyone a lot more than in October when this thing comes out and regular PS4 is discounted with a lot of new buyers steering towards PS4 neo.

Thinking of doing this myself then getting a nice GTS bundle.

 

[Scaff]

I don't quite know what you mean by a different phase of acceleration. Wouldn't the environment affect the tires' traction straight away? eg if the car is moving, the tires will have different loadings etc.

No they don't. The driven force has to first overcome the rolling resistance of the tyre before it will even start moving and due to different loading etc. this will lead to differing levels of driven force on each tyre and different deformation patterns and yaw rates before the car has even started to move. Many environmental factors (in particular road camber) would need the car to be moving before they have a significant effect on the car, where as driven torque will be trying to split around 8,000+ lb/ft of torque between the two driven wheels (in the case of the Pagani) before the car has even started rolling.

Environmental factors are a factor, but a minor one when compared to the driven force being applied to the tyres before they have even started rolling. Yes a camber or slope in the road will change the loading on each tyre, but in many cases the weight of the driver and/or fuel load will have an even greater effect, and how the driven force is applied will be affected by all of these (and many others) but that driven force is still going to be the single biggest factor.

There's also a force on the steering from eg unequal angled drive-shafts for cars with transverse engines etc.

I know, I don't believe I have ever stated otherwise (in fact I know I have, when discussing this in other threads, covered it as a factor).

Torque steer for FWD cars usually refers to the steering pulling in one direction, it's certainly the most noticeable effect.

Indeed, but its still an effect, not a cause.

 

[chengman]

6 months later and the only news we have had is a couple pictures from twitter featuring the RC-F and such... It would be nice to know if the beta even exists.