Gran Turismo Sport: General Discussion

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Anyone ever wonder if Kaz ever considered going to AC/Pcars/iracing physics level for GTS or GT7 ? Would he think the sales number will increase from GT6 ? Sales is a big part of the decision making consideration, Kaz would need to convince Sony that such physics level would be beneficial to the brand name and sales number.

Have anyone here ever thought if GTS have Pcars/AC level of physics, would it sell more than GT6 did ?

 

[GranTurismo guy]

Anyone ever wonder if Kaz ever considered going to AC/Pcars/iracing physics level for GTS or GT7 ? Would he think the sales number will increase from GT6 ? Sales is a big part of the decision making consideration, Kaz would not to convince Sony that such physics level would be beneficial to the brand name and sales number.

Have anyone here ever thought if GTS have Pcars/AC level of physics, would it sell more than GT6 did ?

I don't think it would. hardcore sims are a niche market, I'm not sure how many more buyers it would pull in.

 

[Imari]

Project CARS has one major graphical flow, it uses different LOD models for every car, so in a replay your car transforms to be in more detail as it approaches the camera, it's not subtle at all and ruins the replays for me.

All games do this. It's simply that usually the transition between models happens at a distance where it is imperceptible. pCARS transitions them too late.

In short, any dev could aim high, the problem is the risk and the management decision. SMS took huge gamble with Pcars, but they did it. AC/Kunos is next with console port, will this gamble will return profit ? We'll see. If these 2 indeed find success and do make great sales with sequels, PD/Kaz might follow suit, otherwise, from all I can see, PD/Kaz is taking safer bet.

They could just license an engine if they wanted. I'm guessing Kunos would be happy to take a couple million dollars in order to sell Polyphony a license for their console physics engine. Probably SMS too.

 

[Samus]

Anyone ever wonder if Kaz ever considered going to AC/Pcars/iracing physics level for GTS or GT7 ? Would he think the sales number will increase from GT6 ? Sales is a big part of the decision making consideration, Kaz would not to convince Sony that such physics level would be beneficial to the brand name and sales number.

Have anyone here ever thought if GTS have Pcars/AC level of physics, would it sell more than GT6 did ?

Is there any evidence or quotes that suggest Kaz has ever not aimed for the absolute perfect physics? They've obviously not reached it but what makes you think they're purposely aiming not for the best physics simulation?

 

[Tornado]

All games do this. It's simply that usually the transition between models happens at a distance where it is imperceptible. pCARS transitions them too late.

Some games do it so late that they forget to actually load them at all.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

All games do this. It's simply that usually the transition between models happens at a distance where it is imperceptible. pCARS transitions them too late.



They could just license an engine if they wanted. I'm guessing Kunos would be happy to take a couple million dollars in order to sell Polyphony a license for their console physics engine. Probably SMS too.

Licenses, aren't they beautiful ? PD could just buy the engine from Kunos, even the company if needed PD, I think is one of the dev that has lots of capital, next to T10.

Is there any evidence or quotes that suggest Kaz has ever not aimed for the absolute perfect physics? They've obviously not reached it but what makes you think they're purposely aiming not for the best physics simulation?

No need for evidence than the games PD made, ever wonder why GT5 and 6 have no tire pressure even when Kaz said KW and Yokohama involved in GT6 ? They are just marketing, where's the 7 post rig from KW ? Those are signs that Kaz never aimed for better simulation than from PSX/PS2 days. He incrementally improved it, but not specifying it to similar level of PC sims. Kaz could have aimed for LFS level, it's playable on Celeron M laptop, why would PS3 not ?

Imagine GT5/6 with LFS physics license it could have been done, but it didn't.

 

[Samus]

Licenses, aren't they beautiful ? PD could just buy the engine from Kunos, even the company if needed PD, I think is one of the dev that has lots of capital, next to T10.



No need for evidence than the games PD made, ever wonder why GT5 and 6 have no tire pressure even when Kaz said KW and Yokohama involved in GT6 ? They are just marketing, where's the 7 post rig from KW ? Those are signs that Kaz never aimed for better simulation than from PSX/PS2 days. He incrementally improved it, but not specifying it to similar level of PC sims. Kaz could have aimed for LFS level, it's playable on Celeron M laptop, why would PS3 not ?

Imagine GT5/6 with LFS physics license it could have been done, but it didn't.

GT being at the level it is isn't in itself evidence they stopped at that level on purpose. Tyre pressures not being included could just as easily because there were fudges in their tyre simulation and they couldn't it working properly when simulated.

I've never once seen Kaz suggest GT physics are gimped on purpose and could have been better if he wanted.

 

[jm79]

Licenses, aren't they beautiful ? PD could just buy the engine from Kunos, even the company if needed PD, I think is one of the dev that has lots of capital, next to T10.



No need for evidence than the games PD made, ever wonder why GT5 and 6 have no tire pressure even when Kaz said KW and Yokohama involved in GT6 ? They are just marketing, where's the 7 post rig from KW ? Those are signs that Kaz never aimed for better simulation than from PSX/PS2 days. He incrementally improved it, but not specifying it to similar level of PC sims. Kaz could have aimed for LFS level, it's playable on Celeron M laptop, why would PS3 not ?

Imagine GT5/6 with LFS physics license it could have been done, but it didn't.

Wasn't there a rumour that Turn 10 wanted to buy Kunos?

 

[PzR Slim]

Wasn't there a rumour that Turn 10 wanted to buy Kunos?

There was but it was completely rubbished by Kunos soon after.

 

[McLaren]

PD: Hey guys! Want to make a completely over the top awesome fantasy car for a bunch of fans to enjoy?
Lamborghini: EEhhh were not really into that sort of thing.

Seriously what happened?

They could give GT the Egoista. That's pretty much in the realm of VGT as far as fantasy goes.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

GT being at the level it is isn't in itself evidence they stopped at that level on purpose. Tyre pressures not being included could just as easily because there were fudges in their tyre simulation and they couldn't it working properly when simulated.

I've never once seen Kaz suggest GT physics are gimped on purpose and could have been better if he wanted.

He would never say it in public, it will tarnish GT brand name. Do you believe PD couldn't make tire pressure adjustable ? I sure don't, when PC sims managed to do decent tire simulation from late 90's and improved a lot in 10 years. Am I going to need to suggest that PD physics lead is not as smart as we think he is ? Back in 2007-2010, most PC sim physics engine had working decent tire simulation physics, PD could have license them or build their own to similar level, the tech and resources were there. ( LFS is one good example )

Chances are PD/Sony specify design requirement to keep similar level of physics, with only small improvement on each life cycle (games)

Makes us wonder Kunos with 12 people ? can do high level physics simulation, while PD with a lot more money and resources got stuck in same level of physics for more than 10 years.

 

[Noz]

And here, this is a comparaison of GTSport sound CR7 / Real / AC /PC

now, what´s the problem to make the gamesound as similar as possible to the sound in the real video?
i dont get it, is there something i dont think of?
none of the gamesounds are even close to the real sound imho.
but, yes, its better than in gt5/6 thats for sure!

 

[Samus]

He would never say it in public, it will tarnish GT brand name. Do you believe PD couldn't make tire pressure adjustable ? I sure don't, when PC sims managed to do decent tire simulation from late 90's. Am I going to need to suggest that PD physics lead is not as smart as we think he is ?

So if he's never said it, how do you know it's true? You're just making an assumption. I have no idea what Mr Tan is or isn't capable of, all I know is there is absolutely zero indication they're holding back on purpose yet there is plenty of evidence he's just not that good, such as the documented tuning issues, aero issues and so on.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

So if he's never said it, how do you know it's true? You're just making an assumption. I have no idea what Mr Tan is or isn't capable of, all I know is there is absolutely zero indication they're holding back on purpose yet there is plenty of evidence he's just not that good, such as the documented tuning issues, aero issues and so on.

Take it as assumption then if that makes you feel better. Every software or games are made with specific design specification and requirements, and the reality is PD choose specific level of physics in their game to develop. PD knows the level of simulation possible to be made, they choose to limit it. You can say that holding back, as part of business decision. If you suggest PD do not holding back or do not intentionally lowered the physics level in GT5/6, then PD may have been the most incompetent dev with lots of money in the world. Back in 2003, we have NR2003, the physics alone would have been possible in 2007 for console, but no one dare to take the risk making such game.

I only say what I think is the most likely scenario based on what PD have made ( GT5/6 ) and how much progress made in GTS physics. Very slow improvement, not sure if it's possible not to be intentional.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Anyone ever wonder if Kaz ever considered going to AC/Pcars/iracing physics level for GTS or GT7 ? Would he think the sales number will increase from GT6 ? Sales is a big part of the decision making consideration, Kaz would need to convince Sony that such physics level would be beneficial to the brand name and sales number.

Have anyone here ever thought if GTS have Pcars/AC level of physics, would it sell more than GT6 did ?

GT could duplicate AC physics as long as they added the friendly assistance on top of it then it wouldn't affect sales at all. Both camps would be happy enough at that point.
GT6 sales failure model is down to personal interpretation but I'd say it had more to do with the bad feeling over GT5 rather than other reasons.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

GT could duplicate AC physics as long as they added the friendly assistance on top of it then it wouldn't affect sales at all. Both camps would be happy enough at that point.
GT6 sales failure model is down to personal interpretation but I'd say it had more to do with the bad feeling over GT5 rather than other reasons.

The most important thing is does physics count as prime incentive for more sales ? If PD/Kaz do read GTP, I'm sure it must have crossed Kaz's mind, what if I implemented AC or Pcars level of physics/tuning to GT, would that be profitable or better for the market I'm aiming for ? I could add assist and other stuff like options/adjustable physics, but how much gain to be had for more cost/development ?

 

[Samus]

Take it as assumption then if that makes you feel better. Every software or games are made with specific design specification and requirements, and the reality is PD choose specific level of physics in their game to develop. PD knows the level of simulation possible to be made, they choose to limit it. You can say that holding back, as part of business decision. If you suggest PD do not holding back or do not intentionally lowered the physics level in GT5/6, then PD may have been the most incompetent dev with lots of money in the world.

I only say what I think is the most likely scenario based on what PD have made ( GT5/6 ) and how much progress made in GTS physics. Very slow improvement, not sure if it's possible not to be intentional.

It's not like this is the only area PD are lagging behind in. I'm not sure you would say they're holding sounds back on purpose, would you? No because that would be silly, but the premise is the same, you're saying that because of the level of physics you find it hard to believe it's not on purpose. If they're lagging behind on other areas simply because they can't/haven't done better, I don't find it beyond the realms of possibility physics is the same, rather than they can do better, they just don't want to.

 

[jm79]

now, what´s the problem to make the gamesound as similar as possible to the sound in the real video?
i dont get it, is there something i dont think of?
none of the gamesounds are even close to the real sound imho.
but, yes, its better than in gt5/6 thats for sure!

I agree on none of them being close to the real sound, but it's worth remembering that the real-world example was probably recorded with a GoPro inbuilt mic or something, so that extra power, messiness and distortion is actually just that - distortion, from the signal clipping. Like an electric guitar through a distortion pedal sounds more gritty and nasty.

The guys recording these things have pro equipment, very good mics and recorders, so the game sound, slightly counter-intuitively, is actually more 'realistic' even though it doesn't seem to be. Perhaps what needs to happen is the game engine needs to simulate the distortion and messiness of the signal clipping from a bad mic. That way, despite a degradation in the 'quality' of the sound compared to the original samples, it will seem closer to the GoPro example, and thus, more realistic.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Take it as assumption then if that makes you feel better. Every software or games are made with specific design specification and requirements, and the reality is PD choose specific level of physics in their game to develop. PD knows the level of simulation possible to be made, they choose to limit it. You can say that holding back, as part of business decision. If you suggest PD do not holding back or do not intentionally lowered the physics level in GT5/6, then PD may have been the most incompetent dev with lots of money in the world. Back in 2003, we have NR2003, the physics alone would have been possible in 2007 for console, but no one dare to take the risk making such game.

I only say what I think is the most likely scenario based on what PD have made ( GT5/6 ) and how much progress made in GTS physics. Very slow improvement, not sure if it's possible not to be intentional.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumstantial_evidence

It is an assumption. Nothing more. You have no proof, you're simply guessing. Which seems to be going around a lot lately...

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

It's not like this is the only area PD are lagging behind in. I'm not sure you would say they're holding sounds back on purpose, would you? No because that would be silly, but the premise is the same, you're saying that because of the level of physics you find it hard to believe it's not on purpose. If they're lagging behind on other areas simply because they can't/haven't done better, I don't find it beyond the realms of possibility physics is the same, rather than they can do better, they just don't want to.

With sound, it's more complicated IMO, PD/Kaz design in GT5/6 for PS3 seems to allocate more RAM/CPU cycle for graphics, less for physics and sound, even less for AI. This is one of their design specification. GT5/6 was supposed to be Sony system showcase, look at GT5P Although, PD seems trying to find balance on later games, albeit with strange decision on resolution increase in GT6 for example.

Some part might be on the sound designer, he may felt the sound is adequate and realistic enough given the playroom he has given ( hardware wise ) and solution used ( software ) as well as recording process used ( PD allocation of budget may be more on the car/track modelling ) From what I can say, PD sure have put sound below graphics. It will be interesting to see how the sound engine will be in GTS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumstantial_evidence

It is an assumption. Nothing more. You have no proof, you're simply guessing. Which seems to be going around a lot lately...

Anything wrong with that ? You can make your own conclusion or disagree with me I simply stated what I thought of PD regarding physics simulation.

Have PD ever shown the details of their physics, graphics and sound engine that they used in GT ? Are they wholly in house ?

 

[jpbonadio]

I don't know if they are new, but I hadn't seen those pictures around here yet:

 

[GTPorsche]

Not new.

 

[jpbonadio]

Not new.

Sorry, I thought I had all the screenshots released so far, but those were not in my collection.

 

[McLaren]

1st and 3rd pic look awful compared to the rest.

 

[jm79]

@Noz Here you go:



That's me just adding signal clipping to the game examples.
Makes it more 'real' seeming, no?

 

[Scaff]

Chances are PD/Sony specify design requirement to keep similar level of physics, with only small improvement on each life cycle (games)

Makes us wonder Kunos with 12 people ? can do high level physics simulation, while PD with a lot more money and resources got stuck in same level of physics for more than 10 years.

Now I have been one of the biggest critics of PD's physics engines around and quite frankly I don't agree with this at all.

First off PD's physics engine has evolved over the last ten years, to say otherwise is simply not true.

Its hasn't evolved quickly enough and has still had big issues, but it certainly hasn't stood still at all.

Now as far as GTS goes that too has moved forward from GT6, particularly in the three key weak areas (tyre, suspension and aero). Is it up to the level of PCars or AC? No, but its got a damn sight closer with GTS.

 

[Akouhi]

This photo looks very similar to the photomode of GT Sport ...

But as we all know, the game will miss an essential car brand...
link of the photo : http://www.caranddriver.com/compari...-2015-porsche-911-carrera-gts-comparison-test

 

[Noz]

@Noz Here you go:



That's me just adding signal clipping to the game examples.
Makes it more 'real' seeming, no?

yep, sounds more brutal ^^
i was aware of the go pro mic situation but the team behind driveclub also recorded from real cars with i think it was 16 mics, and the ingame sound still is brutal so why is gran turismo still way behind in this section?
Why didnt they use the driveclub technique or let the driveclub soundteam take care of the gts sound design?
sony has so many options to choose from!

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Now I have been one of the biggest critics of PD's physics engines around and quite frankly I do't agree with this at all.

First off PD's physics engine has evolved over the last ten years, to say otherwise is simply not true.

Its hasn't evolved quickly enough and has still had big issues, but it certainly hasn't stood still at all.

Now as far as GTS goes that too has moved forward from GT6, particularly in the three key weak areas (tyre, suspension and aero). Is it up to the level of PCars or AC? No, but its got a damn sight closer with GTS.

I understand if you disagree I should have wrote more in details, what I see as the same from GT5 to 6 is no tire pressure, broken aero/drag in GT6 which was okay in GT5, camber issue which was working in GT5 ( though not that good ), ride height issue, torque steer, tire heat model ( slight improvement in GT6, but still very basic ) and how MR/RR cars modeled in game, some MR cars are fine, more likely tire stagger grip level issue ( can be solved by fitting lower grip tire at the front ). I say ten years, from GT5P to GT6 life cycle, 2006-2016. I really hope GTS will do good,

What really boggles me is tire pressure and tire temp that can't be used or adjusted, and lots of car inaccuracy as well stock setups that borders silly ( rear toe in, camber and springs ) from GT4-5-6 that seems to be just bad IMO, some cars that were accurate in GT5 ( spring rate of RX7 ) went crazy in GT6 ( lot harder than it should ), this happens on many cars, spring rate becomes harder, like the Ferrari F40 that was close to the real car in GT5, not so in GT6 stock ( much harder rate )

To me, the physics lead seems to be experimenting or playing around with the cars between GT5 and GT6.

Did you see any hint of tire pressure being adjustable in GTS ? That will be a sign PD improved the tire model, even better with I,M,O temp reading

 

[ColouredBadger]

Ha, quite. Anyway changing subjects somewhat but since I was reminded about it in the master thread, are we going to speculate/discuss what the location/track list could look like?

19 locations and 27 layouts doesn't give a lot of scope for tracks with multiple layouts, only 8 extra over 1 per location. First of all though, the locations.

These are confirmed

1. Brands Hatch
2. Nurburgring
3. Willow Springs
4. Unnamed dirt track location
5. Northern Isle Speedway
6. Tokyo

Which obviously leaves 13.

This is what was in GT6, minus the 4 above known to return:

1. Fuji
2. Suzuka
3. Daytona
4. Tsukuba
5. Circuit de la Sarthe
6. Indianapolis
7. Monza
8. Laguna Seca
9. Spa
10. Motegi
11. Silverstone
12. Ascari
13. Goodwood
14. Bathurst
15. Red Bull Ring
16. High Speed Ring
17. Cape Ring
18. Autumn Ring
19. Deep Forest
20. Grand Valley
21. Eiger
22. Trial Mountain
23. Kart Space
24. Special Stage X
25. Apricot Hill
26. GT Arena
27. Matterhorn
28. Sierra
29. Mid-Field
30. London
31. Roma
32. Madrid
33. Cote d'Azur
34. SSR5
35. SSR7
36. Toscana
37. Chamonix

So the question is, which will make the cut? Personally, this would be my guess, based on their GT6 quality. In brackets is where I think the 27 variations will come from.

1. Suzuka (1)
   
2. Circuit de la Sarthe (1)
   
3. Monza (1)
   
4. Spa (1)
   
5. Silverstone (2)
   
6. Bathurst (1)
   
7. Red Bull Ring (1)
   
8. High Speed Ring (1)
   
9. Grand Valley (2)
   
10. Apricot Hill (1)
    
11. Mid-Field (1)
    
12. Tsukuba (1)
    
13. Autumn Ring (2)
    
14. Brands Hatch (2)
    
15. Nurburgring (2)
    
16. Willow Springs (2)
    
17. Unnamed dirt track location (2)
    
18. Northern Isle Speedway (1)
    
19. Tokyo (2)

I don't think R246 will return for Tokyo, I think it'll be two versions of the new track. Only thing I'm not really sure on is there being only one dirt location, they could add more, and perhaps Autumn Ring or Grand Valley will get cut.

What is worrying though is there really isn't any place for more new locations, or if there are, some big name old locations won't make the cut.

If I remember rightly, Autopolis was being tested a while back in an unfinished version of an unnamed game, as well as an unfinished version of this very track. My thoughts would be, as Super GT hasn't been mentioned yet, and as Gran Turismo has always featured Super GT (to my knowledge), that this might be a contender for addition.

So my potential list would be;

Autopolis
-Full Circuit
Suzuka (because they remade it for GT6)
-GP Circuit
Motegi (Again, re-done for GT6)
-Full Circuit, Speedway
Nurburgring
-Short, GP, Nordschleife, 24h
Willow Springs
-Full Track
Brands Hatch
-Indy, GP
Northern Isle Speedway
-Oval
Tokyo Esperessway
-Possible 2 layouts
Spa-Francorchamps
-GP Circuit
Silverstone
-GP, National, International
Bathurst
-Full Circuit
Red Bull Ring
-GP Circuit
Random Dirt Track
-Possible 2 layouts
Random Dirt Track 2
-1 layout
Random City Track
-1 layout
Laguna Seca
-Full Circuit
Daytona
-Full Track, Oval
New Location
-1 track
New Location 2 or Circuit De La Sarthe (I really hope)
-1 track


I reckon other Oval tracks will be included other than Northern Isle, suggesting there might be a NASCAR offering of some form. Super GT seems almost impossible to be missed, so I selected three tracks to reflect that, as well as some other tracks aimed at GT3 racing.

I honestly don't think Sarthe or Monza will feature this time around, which is a shame because Sarthe is one of my favourite tracks, and P1's being one of my favourite disciplines. And it seems daft to have P1 race cars and not the main track that they race on.

That equals my 19 Locations and 27 Layouts that I think might feature. But who knows with PD.