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Gran Turismo Sport: General Discussion
- Thread starter Formidable
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Except GT6 was by far the worst selling and the lowest critically rated mainline title.
I'm confused as to why you're suggesting it was a good trade off because you think it did well commercially, when as a gamer surely a good trade off is one which is good for the gamer, not the bank balances of the company?
PD focusing on the best graphics whilst leaving the AI and sound way behind their competition is not a good trade off to me, a gamer.
Also, not developing something now because you might have hardware to do it even better down the line is a shocking excuse. How would games ever get properly developed if anyone took that attitude.
As a customer, that would be a terrible way to tell me you work on games. "Yeah we'd like you to buy this game on X console but it's not that good, we'll have Y console soon where we can do things better, so we didn't bother trying on this one".
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cutmeamango
(Banned)
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I thought that "trade off" had already happened in GT5. 
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Yeah, that could be the case - a fast AI by rubber banding isn't necessarily the same as a consistently fast AI the user can actually select as an option. It's hard to know really because PD/Kaz have never really talked about AI much (which is a shame).
Hmmm again it's a good point but I'm still not so sure - what you say about being customisable is definitely logical, but in PD's world (which is absent of logic remember
) I have a feeling they prefer to stick to what I'd call "safe" AI (slow and non-aggressive), and combine that with short chase-the-pack races to (attempt to) appeal to casual audiences. I'm not suggesting it's entirely deliberate and PD could whip up an awesome AI if they wanted - they probably can't, or at least don't wish to throw the resources at trying it - but I wouldn't be surprised if the AI is influenced by design to some extent, even if to us it seems so "irrelevant" (nice way of describing it 
).
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Like you mentioned GRID 2 before, GT6 likely outsold the entire GRID franchise on all platforms so if they say aimed for lower graphical detail, simpler physics, lower frame rate but competitive AI, I don't think GT6 would do as well as it did.
You likely get other benefits in the game such as better physics and graphics, something has to give. Online racing is much more fun although I have yet to race online in GT6.
I like the way PDI go about development, seems more efficient thinking towards the future and that likely will help a lot for this game. I can see why so why PDI have such good partnerships. Get the feeling coming to GT part of forum, people think that PDI (The most succesful developers in the genre) don't know what they are doing and should follow in the footsteps of others who are struggling a lot more. In real world, PDI's reputation is probably at an all time high which is what matters and probably main reason why such a game like GT SPORT is being created.
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How did deliberately making GT6's AI worse than GT5's allow them to better achieve a target frame rate, graphical fidelity and more advanced physics? How did deliberately making GT6's AI worse than GT5's allow them to better plan for a future GT game AI on a more powerful platform?
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- Lma_robot
- lImaRobotl
For someone who is apparently so willing to accept trade-off of the game at hand, its really odd how vocal you are about other games also making trade-offs for the better.Like you mentioned GRID 2 before, GT6 likely outsold the entire GRID franchise on all platforms so if they say aimed for lower graphical detail, simpler physics, lower frame rate but competitive AI, I don't think GT6 would do as well as it did.
You likely get other benefits in the game such as better physics and graphics, something has to give. Online racing is much more fun although I have yet to race online in GT6.
I like the way PDI go about development, seems more efficient thinking towards the future and that likely will help a lot for this game. I can see why so why PDI have such good partnerships. Get the feeling coming to GT part of forum, people think that PDI (The most succesful developers in the genre) don't know what they are doing and should follow in the footsteps of others who are struggling a lot more. In real world, PDI's reputation is probably at an all time high which is what matters and probably main reason why such a game like GT SPORT is being created.
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- United Kingdom
I think the AI is worse due to not having enough power left over. They likely did MLAA, more advanced driving physics and adapative tessellation on Cell so that I think would leave a lot less room for AI processing. The trade off seemed to require to make a less resource intensive AI, seems more in direction of what they used in GT PSP. Anyway they likely already knew about PS4 and shifted their focus to that and left GT6 with placeholder stuff. I do find the nVidia stuff interesting though, hopefully PDI learned off them, that would have been shortly after GT6 launch.
Ameer67
Premium
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So GT6 was just a big placeholder?
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- NewAesthetic
- SlipZtrEm
We'll never know either way.
It's efficient only for the nebulous "future game". It's utterly the opposite for the current one. Giving players some of the worst AI to grace console racing games on the promise it might be good down the road isn't efficient.
There isn't even a track record for the promise of future games being better panning out. Before GT6's release, so many people were quick to point out that GT5 was a learning exercise for PD. That it was their first full game on the PS3, so the second one would fix a lot of the issues with things like sounds, AI, and a consistent frame rate.
Look how that turned out.
We've been told the PS4 is massively easier to work with. We're now 28 months into the PS4's release: that's longer than the time it took for Prologue to show up on the PS3.
Their reputation with automakers? Absolutely, I'd mostly agree. Their reputation for genre-defining, unarguably-great games?
*shrug*
It could all turn around with GT Sport, of course. And I'm hoping it does.
Here let me add you:
1. Driveclub has a Place, 2 cars, and 2 bikes as DLC released recently.
2. SLR EVO has 2 DLC released.
3. NFS 2015 has a new HotRod DLC and Update
4. Dirt Rally Coming to consoles as well as the new DLC.
A non Sim example apart from the latter. Its to show how silent PD are. The discussion here are just looming in circles which is predictable.
I dont care anymore at this point. Its now a "Sunk Cost Fallacy" when it comes to GT.
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There is no technical limitation that manifests itself in the AI running laps that are seconds slower per sector when the player is far behind and then speeding up in the final laps to match their time. There is no technical limitation that causes the AI to slow down and match the player's speed when coming up on them in the final straight of a race. It's deliberately programmed behavior on top of AI that otherwise functions much the same as it did in GT5 in A-Spec. The reason the AI in GT6 is as bad as it is is because PD purposefully made it that bad, perhaps to offset how bad races themselves are set up, perhaps not.
So again I ask: How did deliberately making GT6's AI worse than GT5's allow them to better achieve a target frame rate, graphical fidelity and more advanced physics? How did deliberately making GT6's AI worse than GT5's allow them to better plan for a future GT game AI on a more powerful platform?
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- Johnnypenso
It might take more computing power to tell the AI to deliberately slow down than it would be to maintain a constant pace.
- 11,660
- GTP_Orido
Rubber band AI usually ran on very simplified physics ( otherwise a waste of CPU cycle to have it with same physics as player ), thus they can warp speed or slow down like a worm without adhering to the car physics ( maybe PD increase AI car acceleration + grip in real time without actually simulating it properly, they may just sort of moving it around like slot car, maybe this is why some of them can get funky stoppie when braking )
I see them AI like ant in GT
In seasonal, some AI driver can be very aggressive, sort of B spec personality, but only after they are being passed. Some got really slow and timid after being passed. I often wonder if PD would use these aggressive behavior on all AI
Another side is, PS3 simply can't really handle 16 cars on track in close proximity to each other ( packs ), I often felt these cars are spread apart to reduce CPU load, even then with 4 cars close to each other, and they are being premium with weather, frame drops can occur ( especially on 1080p output )
I often intentionally play single races offline at 720p, picked track like London or Big Willow, and game limit the car to just 10 and most of them always have standard cars.
Last time I ran Super GT race with courtesy cars, most are premium AI, at Big Willow no rain at dawn, got into a crowd of another 4 or 5 premium Super GT cars in front of me ( cockpit view ), very visible frame drops ( the time counter is an easy indicator that gets slower as more cars in view at close distance, no tearing though on my PDP ) entering 1st turn even on 720p at rather empty track like Big Willow, now imagine a standing start race with 9 or 15 cars in front of me with cockpit view
With online races, PS3 deals with less load as other cars are other players, it only have to deal with the player physics, but still can have hiccups in fps.
Is there other title on PS3 with similar graphics level that have AI cars the same physics as player cars and actually drive well while keeping stable frame rate at 60fps ?
I see them AI like ant in GT
In seasonal, some AI driver can be very aggressive, sort of B spec personality, but only after they are being passed. Some got really slow and timid after being passed. I often wonder if PD would use these aggressive behavior on all AI
Another side is, PS3 simply can't really handle 16 cars on track in close proximity to each other ( packs ), I often felt these cars are spread apart to reduce CPU load, even then with 4 cars close to each other, and they are being premium with weather, frame drops can occur ( especially on 1080p output )
I often intentionally play single races offline at 720p, picked track like London or Big Willow, and game limit the car to just 10 and most of them always have standard cars.
Last time I ran Super GT race with courtesy cars, most are premium AI, at Big Willow no rain at dawn, got into a crowd of another 4 or 5 premium Super GT cars in front of me ( cockpit view ), very visible frame drops ( the time counter is an easy indicator that gets slower as more cars in view at close distance, no tearing though on my PDP ) entering 1st turn even on 720p at rather empty track like Big Willow, now imagine a standing start race with 9 or 15 cars in front of me with cockpit view
With online races, PS3 deals with less load as other cars are other players, it only have to deal with the player physics, but still can have hiccups in fps.
Is there other title on PS3 with similar graphics level that have AI cars the same physics as player cars and actually drive well while keeping stable frame rate at 60fps ?
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- Formidable_LG
- Formidable77
Meanwhile, on the news page...
>checks GTPlanet news
>sees new article for GT
>gets excited
>just something about GT6 on showcase in a museum
>dies
>checks GTPlanet news
>sees new article for GT
>gets excited
>just something about GT6 on showcase in a museum
>dies
- 27,387
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- NewAesthetic
- SlipZtrEm
The worst part about that for us, is the constant "bring us Gran Turismo news" rabble from the social media channels when we dare to post anything that isn't GT. Believe me, we all want news about the new game to fill the front page, we really do.
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- gohan_girabyt3
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I'm not complaining on your part (great article by the way), it's just we are still not getting any more GTS news from PD, and it's concerning me quite a bit. I'm not wanting all the details just yet, but just at least something to show that they're still active and working on the game. It's really making me think the beta and release is going to be pushed back, but then again, that wouldn't surprise me knowing that Project Cars and AC for console were delayed themselves.
I see all of this news for things coming to AC, FM6 and in future Forza games, but so little from PD and GTS. I just wonder what they're up to.
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- Neomone
Of course not. If you make the requirements specific enough, then of course no other game can meet them.
Why not just say "Are there any titles on PS3 with similar graphics level that have AI cars the same physics as player cars and actually drive well while keeping stable frame rate at 60fps?"
And the answer to that is also no.
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What if I lower the graphic part and fps to 30 ? I often wonder also how much CPU power to run all cars in high fidelity physics similar to Live For Speed on PS3 console ? Would it be possible to have LFS physics on GT6 ( including AI cars ) at 60fps while keeping graphics details like now but at 720p native ?
I always sensed PD made a lot of compromise just to bump up native res in GT6
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That's always a possibility, but hopefully it would be more like AC, as Project Cars was delayed for two years
AC and FM6 are of course already released games so they're slightly different.
I assume Sony are waiting until all the details are finalised before any announcement.
Sure it can. It could handle 50 cars in close proximity if a game was designed to manage that, and prioritise that. Old PC sims managed that on much lesser hardware. GT6 can't, no, because PD prioritised the graphics and other areas instead.
No, and don't you have to ask yourself why? Because that is something the PS3 actually can't handle, but PD tried to ask it to do it anyway. The result being what we got, framerate drops and poor design compromises. Meanwhile the other devs understood what the PS3 could do and designed their games accordingly, with lesser graphics and lower framerate so they could include good AI.
Of course I don't think PD should have sacrificed on framerate and gone for 30fps like most other games but they clearly went too far on graphics, at a detriment to the rest of the game. Why did no other dev aim for (upscaled) 1080p @ 60fps and the visual fidelity of GT5+6? Because they knew it wasn't possible.
I know certain members here will say they're happy that PD aim for more than other devs but I'm afraid I don't see it the same way when they can never meet those aims. If they did, it'd be a completely different story.
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- GTP_Orido
I should have wrote GT6 can't handle 16 cars
What bothers from beginning was res increase to 1440x1080 in GT6 when GT5 was already struggling I always run the game on 720p to make it more stable in fps, but GT5 was still better in terms of fps even at same 720p.PD decision to aim 60fps/1080p may be influenced by Sony, at release PS3 was claimed to make 1080p 60fps gaming possible, clearly it was not capable of doing that without much sacrifice, early title like Wipeout HD could do it and it still has screen tearing back then. PD tried to squeeze in 1080p at non native res ( much lower width ), just to get that 1080p tag.
The GT5/6 premium models would have been more suited for PS4 1st GT title instead.
With GTS, 1080p/60 would be easily possible, now the question is, will PD follow same path with graphics, aiming photo realism at the expense of AI and physics again ?
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This has been discussed 100 times. They decided to release PS3 version in 2013. It was a right decision IMO so next game would not be coming out around this time. Forza games have no bearings unless the game would have made some records. In fact Forza6 did much worst than expecteand basically tanked. Horzon games are more casual probably more less same like Forza.
It will be compared to other titles and just like any other game lot of people are going to like it and some won't. Time will tell. But one thing is for sure community is much bigger than other platform and for GT it is probably biggest and almost everyone knows that whether they like to accept it or not. This guy used to be in inside sim racing and he made a video about GTS.
Most people buying this game like me are probably not going care about their competition and just want a GT game on PS4 but I can see lot of other people also trying it just for the sake of it.
We know Sony pushed 3D but I doubt they were pushing PD to do 1080p, they didn't on any other first party titles to my knowledge except as you say Wipeout. Beyond that I don't know of any, the only other games on PS3 doing 1080p are certainly less graphically demanding.
Well that's the million dollar question, isn't it. All we can do is hope they don't.
Very nice. Still has diddly squat to do with the point that was being made.
Well that's the million dollar question, isn't it. All we can do is hope they don't.
Very nice. Still has diddly squat to do with the point that was being made.
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No point was being made. It is the same thing same people are making for years. Taking shots at GT and doing stealth trolling.
The point being made and discussed was that in three years there have been three Forza games and zero GT games.
It wasn't a shot, it was a factual observation and how popular they are doesn't make it any less true.
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- ScottPuss20
- CheetahsMeow
PD don't settle for second best in terms of graphics and physics. It's the reason why people want to buy the game, not because of useless AI and some questionable design decisions. Like me. I know that a few of you will disagree with this statement and say that it's not that good at all, but I am able to see the love PD has for Gran Turismo. No, it may not be obvious but then again I'm don't feel bad playing it - in fact I was on GT6 a few days ago. The game isn't torture to play without traction control, unlike Project Cars which is not enjoyable without traction control. I struggle to like Project Cars and it's sad because it's a PS4 game with BETTER physics, sounds and track list. I thought it would be one of my favourite games. It isn't. If anything, I enjoy playing COD Black Ops 3 and Fallout because they AREN'T difficult to play - they don't focus on the tiny details or making the game feel realistic, they just want you to HAVE FUN and REMEMBER the experience in a positive light. That's why I can't put down PD. Or Gran Turismo for that matter. I don't care if the game is perfect, because that's the very reason why IT IS.
