Gran Turismo Sport: General Discussion

[GT Sport]

@Imari I think you are mistaken.
Not everything can be featured in BETA. They said that it is going ti be a full game.
Neither a Prologue nor a "small" game

 

[sems4arsenal]

Uh, yeah, it was. If you look at any of the many threads about the best GT game of all time, it tends to be a toss up between GT4 and GT3.



Pull the other one. It has bells on.



Really? Higher than the PS2 in 2004? The PS2 hit 100 million a year later, so that'd be maybe ~70-80 million in 2004?

http://www.pcworld.com/article/123760/article.html

How many PS4s are there out there now? Latest I could find was 53 million.

http://1reddrop.com/2017/04/02/ps4-beats-xbox-one-install-base-2017-nintendo-switch-rise/



You can bet whatever you like, Maka is staying where she is.

GT3 didn't have a 70-80 million install base did it? Also the PS4 was at 56 million LTD 2 months ago. By the time GTSport releases it will be anything between 60-70 million.

PCARS 2 to GTS is what PES is to FIFA.

 

[PzR Slim]

PCARS 2 to GTS is what PES is to FIFA.

What, a much better game?

 

[ArR29]

What, a much better game?

In terms of sales, I guess. PES is still stuck at PS2 days.

 

[sems4arsenal]

What, a much better game?

No arguments from me, I hate FIFA.

 

[Tired Tyres]

I disagree with the timing.
Yes, it was SONY's choice, but I think they made an error, and I think it cost them.
I doubt sales figures would be as low (PD wise) if it was a PS4 release.
But sure, GT6 had its issues.
Disregarding launch timing, Online racing was its biggest downfall.
Sure, feature updates dragged out, in particular the CM which was way too late and had stupid limitations.
But the online issues reigned supreme, where Quickmatch became the go-to, but match-making was a nightmare.
I'm not sure though that GT6 deserves the condemnation you are putting forward.

85 million PS3 owners at the time vs an unknown number of PS4 owners at the time. It would have had to be a fundamentally different game on PS4. PS2 game assets TWO generations behind? That would mean a protracted development delay. You say Online was the biggest downfall? What about me as a solo player? NO racing - in a RACE game! The entirety of GT6 reduced to time attacking due to AI programmed to let you win.

Regarding sim-racing game release time frames, game budgets, staff numbers etc.
To me, it's irrelevant.
As a console player, every game I buy is near enough the same.
There is the protracted wait for GT games, which IMO is stretching what's reasonable.
But to be comparing 5 games sales on a direct competitive console with 1 game on the other major console, at some stage it's worth questioning exactly how well the alternative is travelling.

It was said that GT5 cost $60 million to develop. That was five years with annual running costs at $12 million. Now they have more staff and given inflation you can say that it now costs quite a lot more. At which point does it become economically sensible to stop sustaining protracted development like this?

 

[EDK]

85 million PS3 owners at the time vs an unknown number of PS4 owners at the time. It would have had to be a fundamentally different game on PS4. PS2 game assets TWO generations behind? That would mean a protracted development delay. You say Online was the biggest downfall? What about me as a solo player? NO racing - in a RACE game! The entirety of GT6 reduced to time attacking due to AI programmed to let you win.

Did you find the single player mode of GT5 to be superior to GT6?

My personal perspective is that it still lacked the depth of single player mode on GT4. I believe GT4 had a flawed physics model and was far from a perfect game, but I spent considerably more time completing the single player mode than on GT5 or GT6.

In that sense, I believe the direction that gaming in general has gone, with online play is partly to blame, if not entirely to blame.

Understand what you are saying about AI, and certainly the level of competition was also better on GT4. But that's not the only factor from my personal perspective.

 

[sems4arsenal]

@Tired Tyres Assuming GTS costs 100 million, you need to sell 1.6 million copies at 60$ to recoup that cost.

So a pretty easy affair. (that's also not counting DLC, micro-transactions, etc).

Edit: I hope my math is correct , I'm about to graduate.

 

[GT Sport]

@Tired Tyres Assuming GTS costs 100 million, you need to sell 1.6 million copies at 60$ to recoup that cost.

So a pretty easy affair. (that's also not counting DLC, micro-transactions, etc).

They will make depreciation from the first 48 hours GT Sport releases.

 

[Imari]

@Imari I think you are mistaken.
Not everything can be featured in BETA. They said that it is going ti be a full game.
Neither a Prologue nor a "small" game

This isn't about the beta. They've been very clear about what's going to be in the final game. Limited single player. No customisation, outside of the livery. Online focused.

I didn't say it wasn't going to be a full game. I said that if people buying it expecting a game like Gran Turismos 1 through 6, they're going to be disappointed.

GT3 didn't have a 70-80 million install base did it? Also the PS4 was at 56 million LTD 2 months ago. By the time GTSport releases it will be anything between 60-70 million.

No, GT3 didn't. But that's not what you said. You said a higher install base than previous games. You weren't specific. And that's not true.

PCARS 2 to GTS is what PES is to FIFA.

Sure? I don't play either so I wouldn't know.

All I can see from looking online is that they're both considered to be very good and each tends to complement the others weaknesses. One is a better game at the expense of the window dressing, the other is slightly worse but is a premium experience. Neither is considered bad, and rational comparisons are made between the two because they are direct competitors.

http://www.trustedreviews.com/opinions/fifa-17-vs-pes-2017

So that would seem to sort of shoot your "GTS has no competition" argument down.

Did you find the single player mode of GT5 to be superior to GT6?

My personal perspective is that it still lacked the depth of single player mode on GT4. I believe GT4 had a flawed physics model and was far from a perfect game, but I spent considerably more time completing the single player mode than on GT5 or GT6.

I found the structure of the career in both to be awful. GT5 more so with it's awful XP system. On the other hand, with GT5 you could manufacture challenges much more easily than in GT6 with the ridiculous AI that was desperately trying to let you win.

If I had to pick one of the two to be stuck on a desert island with and had no internet connection, it'd probably be GT5. But I wouldn't be terribly happy about either, and GT4 would be preferable.

Why they got rid of A-spec points I'll never know.

@Tired Tyres Assuming GTS costs 100 million, you need to sell 1.6 million copies at 60$ to recoup that cost.

So a pretty easy affair. (that's also not counting DLC, micro-transactions, etc).

Edit: I hope my math is correct , I'm about to graduate.

It's not correct. Other people have to make money too. Polyphony/Sony do not see $60 a copy. They maybe see $30, if you're lucky. So 3 million copies, which still isn't too hard for a Gran Turismo game probably, but it's not a trivial number any more.

 

[GT Sport]

This isn't about the beta. They've been very clear about what's going to be in the final game. Limited single player. No customisation, outside of the livery. Online focused.
That's why DLCs are for

 

[Imari]

That's why DLC's are for

Ah, so your argument is that people should buy a game that isn't what they want in the hope that the developer releases DLC to change it into something that suits them more.

Strong logic. You got me beat.

 

[GT Sport]

Strong logic. You got me beat.


Are you saying this ironically?

No. But a game can't have everything by the time it releases.
They stated that it'll be a full game.

 

[diesel97]

Ah, so your argument is that people should buy a game that isn't what they want in the hope that the developer releases DLC to change it into something that suits them more.

Strong logic. You got me beat.

It's the same thing as people buying this (many on this site have said so) just for the photo mode and scapes

 

[Tired Tyres]

Did you find the single player mode of GT5 to be superior to GT6?

My personal perspective is that it still lacked the depth of single player mode on GT4. I believe GT4 had a flawed physics model and was far from a perfect game, but I spent considerably more time completing the single player mode than on GT5 or GT6.

In that sense, I believe the direction that gaming in general has gone, with online play is partly to blame, if not entirely to blame.

Understand what you are saying about AI, and certainly the level of competition was also better on GT4. But that's not the only factor from my personal perspective.

Vastly better. Until PD fixed the AI with a patch that is. You could get a good race against AI in Arcade mode - if you chose the right car- and practice mode single make races with two grade tyre drop over the AI was good. The shorter Endurance races could be good if you chose the right car. According to a PSN 10th Anniversary email I received my most played PS3 game was GT5 with 1,365 hours. That from a game I stopped playing 12-18 months before GT6 came out. GT4 on the other hand - 15 memory cards with separate completed GT4 saves! Ouch.

@Tired Tyres Assuming GTS costs 100 million, you need to sell 1.6 million copies at 60$ to recoup that cost.

So a pretty easy affair. (that's also not counting DLC, micro-transactions, etc).

Edit: I hope my math is correct , I'm about to graduate.

You have to split that $60 up between all the relevant parties. I don't know what the split is but I'm sure the retailer makes the biggest cut.

Also you'd have to know what percentage of players buy DLC.

 

[Imari]

Are you saying this ironically?

If you can't tell that it's not strong logic, I guess that's why you thought it was strong logic.

They stated that it'll be a full game.

Please read what I wrote. I didn't say it wouldn't be. But "full game" doesn't necessarily mean 500+ cars with full body kits, aero parts, engine and exhaust tuning, and 30+ tracks. Which is probably what someone looking for GT7 is going to expect

GTS as they've explained it now is ~140 cars, 19 tracks, limited single player, limited "customisation", online focused, with an exceptional photo mode. That is the full game. Unless they've decided to chuck something else in during the last six months, but probably not.

It's the same thing as people buying this (many on this site have said so) just for the photo mode and scapes

To be fair, I think that's fine. That particular feature is pretty much a tier above anything any other game can do. If someone wants to pay money specifically for a motorsport photography simulator, they should absolutely buy GTS.

I know that sounds sarcastic, but it's actually not. The game does it really well. It's a niche market, but people who are into that exist and the game is going to be super sweet for them.

That isn't a case of buying a game and hoping that DLC turns it into something it's not. They know what the game is from day one and are buying it with eyes open. It may be something that you or I wouldn't choose to spend money on, but they're more than welcome to if they wish.

 

[EDK]

Vastly better. Until PD fixed the AI with a patch that is. You could get a good race against AI in Arcade mode - if you chose the right car- and practice mode single make races with two grade tyre drop over the AI was good. The shorter Endurance races could be good if you chose the right car. According to a PSN 10th Anniversary email I received my most played PS3 game was GT5 with 1,365 hours. That from a game I stopped playing 12-18 months before GT6 came out. GT4 on the other hand - 15 memory cards with separate completed GT4 saves! Ouch.

Yeah, I played the crap out of GT4. But I got hooked on WRS and LAN racing after the first couple of years. I completed the game once and cooked my save with the Max Drive when extracting a replay, so ended up with one of the uber saves that I used to have all the cars.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

@Imari it doesn't have competition in terms of racing games.

I... what? What do you think we've been covering on the front page for two years now?

GTSport will have the advantage of an even higher install base than when previous games got released.

GT3 and GT6.

I'm really not seeing evidence as to whatever reason a "sales decline" is happening.

Here's a good post on it by @Famine. Though it's from before we knew the actual sales figures of GT6, the points remain valid. Both Forza and GT hit their sales peaks ages ago. Despite other games arriving on the scene, the cumulative total for the genre suggests racing games just aren't selling like they used to.

I don't see that as a bad thing, so long as devs aren't going in expecting eight-digit sales figures. Then again, we could be seeing an up-swing: as you said, FH3 has sold well for a fairly long period of time (and has cleared FH2's sales figures by a substantial margin IIRC), and apparently AC sold well on consoles. If PCARS2 delivers on its promises, I wouldn't be surprised to hear it outsells the original too.

 

[diesel97]

If you can't tell that it's not strong logic, I guess that's why you thought it was strong logic.



Please read what I wrote. I didn't say it wouldn't be. But "full game" doesn't necessarily mean 500+ cars with full body kits, aero parts, engine and exhaust tuning, and 30+ tracks. Which is probably what someone looking for GT7 is going to expect

GTS as they've explained it now is ~140 cars, 19 tracks, limited single player, limited "customisation", online focused, with an exceptional photo mode. That is the full game. Unless they've decided to chuck something else in during the last six months, but probably not.



To be fair, I think that's fine. That particular feature is pretty much a tier above anything any other game can do. If someone wants to pay money specifically for a motorsport photography simulator, they should absolutely buy GTS.

I know that sounds sarcastic, but it's actually not. The game does it really well. It's a niche market, but people who are into that exist and the game is going to be super sweet for them.

That isn't a case of buying a game and hoping that DLC turns it into something it's not. They know what the game is from day one and are buying it with eyes open. It may be something that you or I wouldn't choose to spend money on, but they're more than welcome to if they wish.

I understand it's not apple to apple comparison but I feel sorry for someone that buys a "racing game" only to find out that Kaz has blown 3/4 of his manpower and budget on scapes and photo mode

 

[EDK]

Here's a good post on it by @Famine. Though it's from before we knew the actual sales figures of GT6, the points remain valid. Both Forza and GT hit their sales peaks ages ago. Despite other games arriving on the scene, the cumulative total for the genre suggests racing games just aren't selling like they used to.

I don't see that as a bad thing, so long as devs aren't going in expecting eight-digit sales figures. Then again, we could be seeing an up-swing: as you said, FH3 has sold well for a fairly long period of time (and has cleared FH2's sales figures by a substantial margin IIRC), and apparently AC sold well on consoles. If PCARS2 delivers on its promises, I wouldn't be surprised to hear it outsells the original too.

One wonders if those lost sales are the most casual players who are not purchasing next generation consoles and are getting their gaming fix with smart phones and tablets?

 

[lancia delta hf]

Ah, so your argument is that people should buy a game that isn't what they want in the hope that the developer releases DLC to change it into something that suits them more.

Strong logic. You got me beat.

Maybe GTsport potential buyers are hoping for a "quantum leap" in DLC?

 

[bdj57]

To be fair, I think that's fine. That particular feature is pretty much a tier above anything any other game can do. If someone wants to pay money specifically for a motorsport photography simulator, they should absolutely buy GTS.

I know that sounds sarcastic, but it's actually not. The game does it really well. It's a niche market, but people who are into that exist and the game is going to be super sweet for them.

That isn't a case of buying a game and hoping that DLC turns it into something it's not. They know what the game is from day one and are buying it with eyes open. It may be something that you or I wouldn't choose to spend money on, but they're more than welcome to if they wish.

I agree with your statement. GT is not about you having cars and raced them on track, but it is even more depth than you can think of. I have learned a lot from my experience playing GT4 day and night back then and my conclusion GT is the only game (at that time) that understood not just casuals or professionals players, but car enthusiast in general. You can spend much time in Photomode, tuning your cars, testing it even change your oil! That was fun! (for me at least). Also don't forget bunch of stuff in Career Mode. My point is that playing GT is not just about playing mainstream racing games. It is to give a people sense of love having cars and how you spend and feel most of times with it. A very vast and deep experience with many types of cars.

I don't know yet if GTS will capture the essence of what previous series had, but with stuff like Scapes and livery editor, people will take a look at it and likely still buy it in a heartbeat then have a good time with it even just messing around making pretty shots and creating custom livery out of GTS. I'm okay if the selling point is not about racing for GT as a whole (obviously would be better if they more focus on the primary aspect, like everyone said here). Otherwise it still have some tricks on it sleeves to make it competitive in the market I guess.

 

[imported_rik19]

I understand it's not apple to apple comparison but I feel sorry for someone that buys a "racing game" only to find out that Kaz has blown 3/4 of his manpower and budget on scapes and photo mode

Those are the best bits tho, and you forgot replays...Cannot wait to use them parts of the game..

 

[sems4arsenal]

I... what? What do you think we've been covering on the front page for two years now

In terms of sales. Like I said above, Forza in on a different platform and PCARS won't eat much into GTSport's consumer base in my opinion.

GT3 and GT6

I meant the other games this gen that didn't reach 7 million+ sales.

Here's a good post on it by @Famine. Though it's from before we knew the actual sales figures of GT6, the points remain valid. Both Forza and GT hit their sales peaks ages ago. Despite other games arriving on the scene, the cumulative total for the genre suggests racing games just aren't selling like they used to.

Famine makes a valid argument but I have reservations. GT6 sold less for obvious reasons (and even then it sold a huge amount). FH3 is on track to be the best selling Forza IIRC so sales seem to be picking up. DC had a disastrous launch, PCARS and AC are a new ip (one was crowdfunded).

The one that raises the alarm bells is NFS. This could be down to series fatigue or the fact the latest ones just weren't very good (which somehow made EA reboot the franchise and launch the 2015 turd).

Is there a genre fatigue? I think there is, but just how big?

big enough for GTS to have less sales than GT6?, not in my opinion.

@Imari The install base argument, I meant in terms of the 7 million+ sellers not for previous GT games.

PCARS 2 is not competition in terms of sales. I made the analogy to PES and FIFA because although PES is considered the superior, it barely makes a dent in FIFA's sales numbers because they're significantly less.

 

[gregorius93]

It's the same thing as people buying this (many on this site have said so) just for the photo mode and scapes

I'm the one who will spend a lot of time at photo mode, I'm sure.

Yes, I'm a GT fan.

 

[BrainsBush]

Do you have a decent tune for the SLS?

I just shared my setup : https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/share-your-gts-car-setups.354696/page-5

Hope it helps?

 

[Aerocoupe]

In terms of sales. Like I said above, Forza in on a different platform and PCARS won't eat much into GTSport's consumer base in my opinion.

Look at it this way. Say you're a general car/racing fan looking to buy one of the latest racing games. You'd look and see that Forza already has four titles under its belt, PCARS 2 is getting closer to release, AC has been out for a while, and GTS is...still in an incomplete beta phase. Sure, they're all a bit different in their approach, but since they all fall under the racing game category, people will most likely compare them and decide from there. Besides, Forza and GT have always been compared to one another, and I bet having one switch to more of an eSport focus won't change that.

While they (Forza and GT) are on different platforms, it doesn't make them uncompetitive-quite the opposite, actually, since it could sway someone one way or the other on which console they buy. Also, since GTS seems to be offering almost exactly the same thing PCARS 2 will, if PCARS offers a better experience, I'm sure those that feel GTS or even GT as a whole has fallen a bit flat will probably go for that instead.

 

[bdj57]

One wonders if those lost sales are the most casual players who are not purchasing next generation consoles and are getting their gaming fix with smart phones and tablets?

Could be, but in terms of immersion and content, consoles (we're not talking about PC here) still win against mobile games imo. Sure there are plenty of good mobile games out there, but usually it will let you to spend your money to unlocked items or features. I'm not into that kind of gaming, I'm type of person that expect interesting features and immersive gameplay from day one, not the guy who pay for better content through updates (free DLC updates is very welcome though) And some games are basically money making machines while it has less features and stuff than you expected and ended up dissapointed.

But some F2P mobile games did things right after you downloaded it. I tried some of mobile games and some of them stayed in my phone, while others were left to be desired. Console gaming however you assume you know what it is about inside the box and you can make decision to pay it or not for what you will get before you played it at home.

The reason of uprising popularity of mobile gaming is because it is practical and always available when you want to play it. Plus, the online server works better in mobile games than consoles imo. But to match the performance and the immersion of consoles mobile games are still steps behind. Surely we might see the day when mobile games capable of outrunning consoles performance, but it needs little bit more time and development to make it happen. For now, I guess consoles still win over mobile games in terms of performance (technically and graphically) also with immersive experience you get in front of your screen.

 

[sems4arsenal]

@Aerocoupe If you have a PC/Xbox then You'll buy Forza, don't see many people straight up buying a console for Forza 7 mind, so if you own a Playstation you're left with PCARS 2 and GTS.

For the average joe, you'll see this really pretty game with a name you're familiar with that gets shown at E3 and ads at the cinema and you see another crowd-funded racer that is supposedly very hard to drive. For average joe, the choice is really easy (won't even get into install bases so easier to find players, etc).

For the hardcore sim fan, it's more likely that you're getting both. I for one will get GTS day one and eventually PCARS 2 because I felt the original was a let down.

 

[EDK]

Could be, but in terms of immersion and content, consoles (we're not talking about PC here) still win against mobile games imo. Sure there are plenty of good mobile games out there, but usually it will let you to spend your money to unlocked items or features. I'm not into that kind of gaming, I'm type of person that expect interesting features and immersive gameplay from day one, not the guy who pay for better content through updates (free DLC updates is very welcome though) And some games are basically money making machines while it has less features and stuff than you expected and ended up dissapointed.

But some F2P mobile games did things right after you downloaded it. I tried some of mobile games and some of them stayed in my phone, while others were left to be desired. Console gaming however you assume you know what it is about inside the box and you can make decision to pay it or not for what you will get before you played it at home.

The reason of uprising popularity of mobile gaming is because it is practical and always available when you want to play it. Plus, the online server works better in mobile games than consoles imo. But to match the performance and the immersion of consoles mobile games are still steps behind. Surely we might see the day when mobile games capable of outrunning consoles performance, but it needs little bit more time and development to make it happen. For now, I guess consoles still win over mobile games in terms of performance (technically and graphically) also with immersive experience you get in front of your screen.

Right, I agree with your sentiment as well, it's just that people are making decisions with how to commit their time and money, and additional devices like PC's and Consoles are losing out.

Those of us who came up with them and are used to having these other devices will likely continue to use/have them.

But I have to believe it's a factor.