GT Sport beta physics discussion - Read the First Post Before Replying

[bdj57]

Has anyone posted on the beta forums regarding physics feedback and concerns?

No, not really. Everyone seems pretty happy about the new physics...

It's not very likely that PD will read any of what is said here. So I would kindly suggest everyone here to voice their opinion (positive or negative) on the Sony beta forums directly.

I agree. It would be wise to voice these kind of opinion in beta forums. Since PD finally start to listen what people's want (even there are some miss, hopefully those would be fixed later I guess). But I'm okay for everyone discussed about it here, to give some perspective to others that doesn't have access to the beta or just sharing experience with fellow beta testers. (Even sometimes I admit I have slight headache reading some of the comments... but it is for the game sake so it is fine imo and I will bear with it.)

 

[praiano63]

I´ve finished my job as fast as possible tonight just in time to race the last GR3 Dragon tail session with the Mercedes-Benz Mercedes-AMG GT3.
I have experienced for the first time today a big difference with the car´s behaviors before the race and during the race.
-Before , the car was perfectly balanced (car ready to publish ,just fine tuning) excellent front grip, a lot of eagerness printing perfectly in every corner.....
-During the race the car was totaly different, huge understeer under brake and under accel out corner, almost undrivable.
This is the first time i see such a big difference. My connection was ok, 120 ping, no lag..... i really don´t understand what could have happened.

I´m really sorry for some other racers that i have rammed or disturbed in their race , but i couldn´t keep my normal driving line, it was not my intention.

 

[trustjab]

I noticed the same as well. Even on DS4. It was like this online in GT6 between qualifying and race. The cars would handle differently when you were in the two different modes even though you were online. Same with GTSport. Seems like a connection thing on PD's side?

 

[kingpen]

I´ve finished my job as fast as possible tonight just in time to race the last GR3 Dragon tail session with the Mercedes-Benz Mercedes-AMG GT3.
I have experienced for the first time today a big difference with the car´s behaviors before the race and during the race.
-Before , the car was perfectly balanced (car ready to publish ,just fine tuning) excellent front grip, a lot of eagerness printing perfectly in every corner.....
-During the race the car was totaly different, huge understeer under brake and under accel out corner, almost undrivable.
This is the first time i see such a big difference. My connection was ok, 120 ping, no lag..... i really don´t understand what could have happened.

I´m really sorry for some other racers that i have rammed or disturbed in their race , but i couldn´t keep my normal driving line, it was not my intention.

They say it's because of the draft or displacement of air while cars are ahead of you. I forget what it's called. It supposedly makes you have to change your braking points and causes you to carry more speed into corners than you would during qualifying. It's hard to get used to.

 

[another_jakhole]

They say it's because of the draft or displacement of air while cars are ahead of you. I forget what it's called. It supposedly makes you have to change your braking points and causes you to carry more speed into corners than you would during qualifying. It's hard to get used to.

It's referred to as dirty air. A better way to describe it is turbulent. Going in a straight line, you're in the slip stream of the car ahead of you. There's less drag on your car. But driving around corners and under braking, your car loses downforce so it destabilizes your car's movements. In reality, if you're chasing a car, it causes your tires to degrade at a faster rate since your car isn't as planted to the road.

 

[Haitauer]

It's referred to as dirty air. A better way to describe it is turbulent. Going in a straight line, you're in the slip stream of the car ahead of you. There's less drag on your car. But driving around corners and under braking, your car loses downforce so it destabilizes your car's movements. In reality, if you're chasing a car, it causes your tires to degrade at a faster rate since your car isn't as planted to the road.

Yes - that is also the single biggest issuen in the 2017 season of F1.

 

[another_jakhole]

Yes - that is also the single biggest issuen in the 2017 season of F1.

It's the single biggest reason why overtaking has become more intense to do and to watch.

 

[trustjab]

GT6 has the 'dirty air' affect. Not huge but it was there. With GT car it's not so prevalent because their shape and covered wheels. F1 otoh it's a big problem.

 

[kingpen]

It's referred to as dirty air. A better way to describe it is turbulent. Going in a straight line, you're in the slip stream of the car ahead of you. There's less drag on your car. But driving around corners and under braking, your car loses downforce so it destabilizes your car's movements. In reality, if you're chasing a car, it causes your tires to degrade at a faster rate since your car isn't as planted to the road.

Yes that's it. Thanks for the reminder and concise explanation.

 

[praiano63]

They say it's because of the draft or displacement of air while cars are ahead of you. I forget what it's called. It supposedly makes you have to change your braking points and causes you to carry more speed into corners than you would during qualifying. It's hard to get used to.

Sorry but i don´t think it could be this. It happened when i was alone on track far enough from the guy in front of me and also at very low speed like in the hairpin. It was not a sensation, the underster was really huge. The fact i had droven it 4 or 5 laps just before the race don´t let me any doubt about his change of behavior.

 

[Haitauer]

It's the single biggest reason why overtaking has become more intense to do and to watch.

Even lapping slower cars is hard in the F1 at the moment, as they struggle to get within a second of the car being lapped due to dirty air, and hence no blue flag.

Which reminds me.. No blue flags in GTS.

 

[Haitauer]

Sorry but i don´t think it could be this. It happened when i was alone on track far enough from the guy in front of me and also at very low speed like in the hairpin. It was not a sensation, the underster was really huge. The fact i had droven it 4 or 5 laps just before the race don´t let me any doubt about his change of behavior.

Havent experienced this during race, but i have noticed some inconsistency few times as the car has been very understeery compared to last session while qualifying. (easy to notice from braking points being way off) Restarted the session and the grip was back. Didnt think it was anything much as it has only happened to me 3-4 times. Still not sure its actually happening..

Sorry for the double post...

 

[PzR Slim]

FFB sensitivity is just multiplier for actual FFB effects, only difference is FFB sensitivity uses canned FFB effects to give you "extra feel" of FFB.
Actual FFB effects are controlled from FFB torque value, technically best value should be 10 on torque and "0" on FFB sensitivity, but most wheels aren't able to produce good feedback around center, but slight boost from FFB sensitivity gives you sensible touch around center, meaning you'll get every road bump on wheel by those canned FFB effects even near to center.
Using higher value on FFB sensitivity wil easily numb actual FFB effects, therefore you need to find balance where you can get both of those effects, canned and real stay on similar strenght, on Logitech G27 8/2 is kinda good balance, someone might want more centering spring effect and use 3 on FFB sensitivity, personally I feel that to start numb actual FFB effects and making harder to feel tire sweet spot during cornering.
Controller sensitivity is just how tight rubber band is between your steering input and game reaction to it, higher number represents tighter band, no lag on steering inputs, lower number gives lag to game reaction from your inputs.



This same effect was on GT6 and GT5 too, it was caller "steering mode" or Something similar, only "simulation" choice was giving zero speed sensitive, other options were just adding more and more speed sensitivity, hopefully GTS will contain same options and then we have choice to switch it off.

ok

 

[SileightyCyrus]

I believe PDI is testing and optimizing some driving aids and accessibility by forcing them on at the moment. Only way to get feedback from people not usually using them - and to compare performance.

Yeah, I noticed the ABS is no longer fully defeatable.

 

[Scaff]

Has anyone posted on the beta forums regarding physics feedback and concerns?

I have.

"OK. I'm going that be 'that person'.


The physics changes in 1.05 are bloody awful. I've worked around cars and motorsport pretty much my entire life and been sim racing since the '90's and while 1.04 had issues, this has not moved things in the right direction at all (not if reality is the benchmark to use).


The Evora has gone from wanting to swap ends far too easily (you had no onset of understeer on a constantly increasing throttle as you should do, just straight to rotational oversteer - which seemed to have no regard for the tyres as actual physical objects) to being almost impossible to upset.


You can attack the 'ring with almost no need to worry about what will happen if you attack curbs that you should in reality never go near (yes I have been), you can cut corners, run the grass and gravel with almost zero impact on the cars stability or degree of traction. In addition you get no rubbish on the tyres affecting grip for doing so, and its still possible to make massive cuts without triggering the penalty system.


All of this is running the car with TC, ASM and ABS all disabled.


I can also set the brake bias fully to the rear and do a full brake pressure stop with no issues at all (again no ABS) while also hammering down through the gears - all the time bouncing off the limiter). This doesn't upset the balance of the car one bit, while in reality everything I'm doing here should be upsetting the balance of the car to such a degree that it should be trying to swap ends, yet not even a wiggle (not to mention the engine and gearbox should be dead).


I can run lap after lap of Brands Indy with the Brake Bias set fully to the rear with no impact on the cars stability or noticeable difference to lap times.


These changes to the physics may well make GTS more accessible and that may indeed be the direction PD are looking for (and if it is then fair enough), however as a sim I've more than enough experience of cars on track, vehicle dynamics and sims to know this is a move in the wrong direction if a true racing sim is the end goal.


More than happy to go into detail around what the issues are in regard to what GTS seems to be doing in relation to how the actual dynamics should be if interested."

 

[baldgye]

I have.

"OK. I'm going that be 'that person'.


The physics changes in 1.05 are bloody awful. I've worked around cars and motorsport pretty much my entire life and been sim racing since the '90's and while 1.04 had issues, this has not moved things in the right direction at all (not if reality is the benchmark to use).


The Evora has gone from wanting to swap ends far too easily (you had no onset of understeer on a constantly increasing throttle as you should do, just straight to rotational oversteer - which seemed to have no regard for the tyres as actual physical objects) to being almost impossible to upset.


You can attack the 'ring with almost no need to worry about what will happen if you attack curbs that you should in reality never go near (yes I have been), you can cut corners, run the grass and gravel with almost zero impact on the cars stability or degree of traction. In addition you get no rubbish on the tyres affecting grip for doing so, and its still possible to make massive cuts without triggering the penalty system.


All of this is running the car with TC, ASM and ABS all disabled.


I can also set the brake bias fully to the rear and do a full brake pressure stop with no issues at all (again no ABS) while also hammering down through the gears - all the time bouncing off the limiter). This doesn't upset the balance of the car one bit, while in reality everything I'm doing here should be upsetting the balance of the car to such a degree that it should be trying to swap ends, yet not even a wiggle (not to mention the engine and gearbox should be dead).


I can run lap after lap of Brands Indy with the Brake Bias set fully to the rear with no impact on the cars stability or noticeable difference to lap times.


These changes to the physics may well make GTS more accessible and that may indeed be the direction PD are looking for (and if it is then fair enough), however as a sim I've more than enough experience of cars on track, vehicle dynamics and sims to know this is a move in the wrong direction if a true racing sim is the end goal.


More than happy to go into detail around what the issues are in regard to what GTS seems to be doing in relation to how the actual dynamics should be if interested."

If you do go into detail on those forums, would you mind reposting it on here too, I would like to read that!

 

[GordonS]

I'm not saying the Evora or the physics are correct but it's challenging nearer its limit. My observations can be found soon in the video thread.

 

[Scaff]

If you do go into detail on those forums, would you mind reposting it on here too, I would like to read that!

No problem.

I'm not however expecting a great response from the Beta forum on it, I may end up pleasantly surprised, but it would be a surprise.

 

[Vspectra]

I have.

"OK. I'm going that be 'that person'.


The physics changes in 1.05 are bloody awful. I've worked around cars and motorsport pretty much my entire life and been sim racing since the '90's and while 1.04 had issues, this has not moved things in the right direction at all (not if reality is the benchmark to use).


The Evora has gone from wanting to swap ends far too easily (you had no onset of understeer on a constantly increasing throttle as you should do, just straight to rotational oversteer - which seemed to have no regard for the tyres as actual physical objects) to being almost impossible to upset.


You can attack the 'ring with almost no need to worry about what will happen if you attack curbs that you should in reality never go near (yes I have been), you can cut corners, run the grass and gravel with almost zero impact on the cars stability or degree of traction. In addition you get no rubbish on the tyres affecting grip for doing so, and its still possible to make massive cuts without triggering the penalty system.


All of this is running the car with TC, ASM and ABS all disabled.


I can also set the brake bias fully to the rear and do a full brake pressure stop with no issues at all (again no ABS) while also hammering down through the gears - all the time bouncing off the limiter). This doesn't upset the balance of the car one bit, while in reality everything I'm doing here should be upsetting the balance of the car to such a degree that it should be trying to swap ends, yet not even a wiggle (not to mention the engine and gearbox should be dead).


I can run lap after lap of Brands Indy with the Brake Bias set fully to the rear with no impact on the cars stability or noticeable difference to lap times.


These changes to the physics may well make GTS more accessible and that may indeed be the direction PD are looking for (and if it is then fair enough), however as a sim I've more than enough experience of cars on track, vehicle dynamics and sims to know this is a move in the wrong direction if a true racing sim is the end goal.


More than happy to go into detail around what the issues are in regard to what GTS seems to be doing in relation to how the actual dynamics should be if interested."

Good stuff, I'm gonna make a post on the US forums with concerns about them possibly moving away from being more simulation. One of their tag lines is "realistic doesn't mean difficult" and Kaz saying in interviews how easy it is to drive a car, but I fear they might be taking this a bit too far, especially when the game still has the motto "real driving simulator."

Btw, didn't you play a preview build of GTS a while back at some event? How were the physics there compared to here? I vaguely recall you saying you were optimistic after playing that build.

 

[BrainsBush]

I´ve finished my job as fast as possible tonight just in time to race the last GR3 Dragon tail session with the Mercedes-Benz Mercedes-AMG GT3.
I have experienced for the first time today a big difference with the car´s behaviors before the race and during the race.
-Before , the car was perfectly balanced (car ready to publish ,just fine tuning) excellent front grip, a lot of eagerness printing perfectly in every corner.....
-During the race the car was totaly different, huge understeer under brake and under accel out corner, almost undrivable.
This is the first time i see such a big difference. My connection was ok, 120 ping, no lag..... i really don´t understand what could have happened.

I´m really sorry for some other racers that i have rammed or disturbed in their race , but i couldn´t keep my normal driving line, it was not my intention.

Glad you shared this with us. Yesterday during the races I had the same 'feeling' of changed car behavior in hotlapping vs racing (no slipstream because I was 1st). Was mainly in cornering. You had to put more effort into it during the race. I was doubting myself...but you also experienced it. I thought it 'race stress'. In quali 8:14 @nords with the Lancer in race 8:20

Would be nice if PD could confirm that they are trying out different car physic settings in quali vs race??? Thx!

 

[Scaff]

Y

Good stuff, I'm gonna make a post on the US forums with concerns about them possibly moving away from being more simulation. One of their tag lines is "realistic doesn't mean difficult" and Kaz saying in interviews how easy it is to drive a car, but I fear they might be taking this a bit too far, especially when the game still has the motto "real driving simulator."

Btw, didn't you play a preview build of GTS a while back at some event? How were the physics there compared to here? I vaguely recall you saying you were optimistic after playing that build.

Yep I played the Copper Box built around a year ago, and I have to say I far preferred that build.

Far better feel for the car and the tyres.

 

[OdeFinn]

Even lapping slower cars is hard in the F1 at the moment, as they struggle to get within a second of the car being lapped due to dirty air, and hence no blue flag.

Which reminds me.. No blue flags in GTS.

No blue flag until car is in 1sec range of overlapped car, new F1 rules

Maybe in GTS they could implement blue flag also, and with forced option, if lapped person isn't lifting a bit (same system as "slow down" penalty could be used) in certain amount of time after blue flags (ie. 20sec flagged) game will force him to slow down.

 

[baldgye]

Glad you shared this with us. Yesterday during the races I had the same 'feeling' of changed car behavior in hotlapping vs racing (no slipstream because I was 1st). Was mainly in cornering. You had to put more effort into it during the race. I was doubting myself...but you also experienced it. I thought it 'race stress'. In quali 8:14 @nords with the Lancer in race 8:20

Would be nice if PD could confirm that they are trying out different car physic settings in quali vs race??? Thx!

I wonder if the change is due to them wanting to replicate a 'race situation' where time trial is more like quali. So in the race you'll have more fuel on board, tires that have wear etc?? I know they don't really display any of this but it does make me wonder

 

[MMX]

I'm of average skill at best, and I agree the Evora has more grip than before, but I still had trouble making a lap at Brands without the rear wanting to come around. I was drifting through turn 1 every single time, and not by choice.

 

[Haitauer]

Sorry but i don´t think it could be this. It happened when i was alone on track far enough from the guy in front of me and also at very low speed like in the hairpin. It was not a sensation, the underster was really huge. The fact i had droven it 4 or 5 laps just before the race don´t let me any doubt about his change of behavior.

Glad you shared this with us. Yesterday during the races I had the same 'feeling' of changed car behavior in hotlapping vs racing (no slipstream because I was 1st). Was mainly in cornering. You had to put more effort into it during the race. I was doubting myself...but you also experienced it. I thought it 'race stress'. In quali 8:14 @nords with the Lancer in race 8:20

Would be nice if PD could confirm that they are trying out different car physic settings in quali vs race??? Thx!

Y

Yep I played the Copper Box built around a year ago, and I have to say I far preferred that build.

Far better feel for the car and the tyres.

No blue flag until car is in 1sec range of overlapped car, new F1 rules

Maybe in GTS they could implement blue flag also, and with forced option, if lapped person isn't lifting a bit (same system as "slow down" penalty could be used) in certain amount of time after blue flags (ie. 20sec flagged) game will force him to slow down.

How many of us here is reporting at the beta forum? I have the no access issue, so cant do it my self.

 

[Scaff]

How many of us here is reporting at the beta forum? I have the no access issue, so cant do it my self.

I am.

 

[Haitauer]

I am.

Scaff - could you check if theres anything on the request for own setup for the engine/exhaust vs drivetrain etc sound in sound settings.

 

[OdeFinn]

How many of us here is reporting at the beta forum? I have the no access issue, so cant do it my self.

Not me, access denied, just flash of left side menu of GTS sections and access denied, made bug report of this on day one when get beta.. Bit feeling dropper, no interest to send bug reports coz no idea what's already on forum discussed, just b-class beta tester, maybe installing 1.05 update on next week..maybe.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Why can't PD release detailed change log ? Would have made life much easier Did the tune for the Evora that I gave you worked in 1.05 ? You can lower the ARB to 4 2, instead 5 3 that you prefer at Big Willow, that may be better at the Ring.



Are you sure SH has reduced grip ? PD got balls, previously in 1.04, SH on GTS is roughly similar to CS in GT6 in terms of lap time performance, cornering speed, braking points etc ( using almost exact same setup - power/weight/suspension/lsd/gearing, on both GT6 and GTS with Genesis and Evora at Big Willow ) The ARB min-max range is different, though with same value, the result is very close in handling. The Evora was balanced on both.

I tried your setup, the rear end feels quite loose now with both ARB settings.

I haven't driven on Nordschleife before with Evora or driven it for a while but gut feeling even in first corner is grip has been reduced by quite a bit. Seems to break traction more easily now and struggles to carry the speed in high speed corners as well as before, rear starts sliding a lot more. Will be interesting to compare if Big Willow comes back, BoP settings are still the same for this car. I think with this update they've done something with torque mappings especially in 1st gear, so it is harder to get wheelspin at low speed as engine bogs down so with SH it still feels like grip is reduced and RH grip increased slightly to me.

It is hard to get rear tyres to lock with no ABS in GT Sport, game limits maximum brake pressure. However, you can get it to in certain corners and the car trys to swap ends, even easier if you are on grass slightly and brake hard then, rear locks. Megane and Evo I tried it on as well and it does the same. Easiest way to lock the rear wheels is just using handbrake and outcome seems quite realistic.

Assetto Corsa has the S model which has more power but that has better drivability than the Evora in GT Sport, you can just full throttle in second gear without any real worry and it's insane how much you can ride the kerbs and on grass with wide open throttle. You can drive ham-fisted. I think Assetto Corsa is a bit too easy to drive which is why some might say it is simcade / has no simulation value, GT Sport is more understandable in you can attack the kerbs as grip reduction feels like low on GT6 and there is a lot of countersteer help, but on Assetto Corsa without that but still getting away with terrible driving shows up weaknesses in handling model.

AC allows you full brake pressure, but even with damaged car veering right, full brake, locking tyres, aggressive downshifts and also pressing handbrake, car went mostly straight which surprised me as in GT Sport the Evora without damage, the car is more likely to want to swap ends. GT doesn't even allow you to engage into lower gears too without being at right speed on controller, need to get a wheel to see if you can force it with H-shifter and clutch and I think if that happens then the car might come around even more abruptly and/or do a lot of damage to internals of the car if there was damage available.

Personally think PDI still need to do a lot of work with the physics, briefly drove the FWD cars and they understeer like crazy, feel horrible to drive. Not really any lift-off oversteer. Gr.3 cars in general still have poor drivability at low speeds. AWD cars feel the best to drive at the moment like the N300 Evo and Gr.4 GT-R, will be interesting to see how they drive without the countersteering aid. Hopefully PDI gives us Real options too and not just full on accessibility. I like what they've done in that regard so far, feels so easy to drive a decent lap compared to GT6 with controller and can be really competitive with top wheel users which was a surprise as I expected to dislike driving with controller a lot going by my previous GT5 and GT6 experiences. It is quite a lot of fun and not frustrating like pretty much every other sim racing game using a pad for me, cars in general turn when you want them to and you can drive on the ragged edge without worrying about any oversteer moments being likely an instant tank slapper due to steering being too slow in reacting and countersteering amount not enough. Think it will keep people's attention longer than say likes of AC and pCARS due to this.

 

[Scaff]

I tried your setup, the rear end feels quite loose now with both ARB settings.

I haven't driven on Nordschleife before with Evora or driven it for a while but gut feeling even in first corner is grip has been reduced by quite a bit. Seems to break traction more easily now and struggles to carry the speed in high speed corners as well as before, rear starts sliding a lot more. Will be interesting to compare if Big Willow comes back, BoP settings are still the same for this car. I think with this update they've done something with torque mappings especially in 1st gear, so it is harder to get wheelspin at low speed as engine bogs down so with SH it still feels like grip is reduced and RH grip increased slightly to me.

It is hard to get rear tyres to lock with no ABS in GT Sport, game limits maximum brake pressure. However, you can get it to in certain corners and the car trys to swap ends, even easier if you are on grass slightly and brake hard then, rear locks. Megane and Evo I tried it on as well and it does the same. Easiest way to lock the rear wheels is just using handbrake and outcome seems quite realistic.

Assetto Corsa has the S model which has more power but that has better drivability than the Evora in GT Sport, you can just full throttle in second gear without any real worry and it's insane how much you can ride the kerbs and on grass with wide open throttle. You can drive ham-fisted. I think Assetto Corsa is a bit too easy to drive which is why some might say it is simcade / has no simulation value, GT Sport is more understandable in you can attack the kerbs as grip reduction feels like low on GT6 and there is a lot of countersteer help, but on Assetto Corsa without that but still getting away with terrible driving shows up weaknesses in handling model.

AC allows you full brake pressure, but even with damaged car veering right, full brake, locking tyres, aggressive downshifts and also pressing handbrake, car went mostly straight which surprised me as in GT Sport the Evora without damage, the car is more likely to want to swap ends. GT doesn't even allow you to engage into lower gears too without being at right speed on controller, need to get a wheel to see if you can force it with H-shifter and clutch and I think if that happens then the car might come around even more abruptly and/or do a lot of damage to internals of the car if there was damage available.

Personally think PDI still need to do a lot of work with the physics, briefly drove the FWD cars and they understeer like crazy, feel horrible to drive. Not really any lift-off oversteer. Gr.3 cars in general still have poor drivability at low speeds. AWD cars feel the best to drive at the moment like the N300 Evo and Gr.4 GT-R, will be interesting to see how they drive without the countersteering aid. Hopefully PDI gives us Real options too and not just full on accessibility. I like what they've done in that regard so far, feels so easy to drive a decent lap compared to GT6 with controller and can be really competitive with top wheel users which was a surprise as I expected to dislike driving with controller a lot going by my previous GT5 and GT6 experiences. It is quite a lot of fun and not frustrating like pretty much every other sim racing game using a pad for me, cars in general turn when you want them to and you can drive on the ragged edge without worrying about any oversteer moments being likely an instant tank slapper due to steering being too slow in reacting and countersteering amount not enough. Think it will keep people's attention longer than say likes of AC and pCARS due to this.

I have video evidence to pretty much counter every bit of this.

The GTS Evora stops dead straight even with no ABS, full rear brake bias and an abused gearbox.


At 3.54.


You can also attack the curbs at the ring in a manner you simply can't get away with in AC at all.