GT5 Latest News & Discussion

[TBR 427]

^ Actually all of PD's cars are laser scanned, and they don't use normal maps to increase detail. All the detail is geometry in GT5!

see all the creases and what not? It's actual polygons there
http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/7/8/6/3/0/0/GT5_exclusive_FOR_ONLINE_ONLY_007.jpg.jpg
http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/articles//a/7/8/6/3/0/0/GT5_exclusive_FOR_ONLINE_ONLY_008.jpg.jpg

LOLNO

Look at the spoiler on the enzo. Look at the ends. 3 flat planes. Look at the middle. See how it appears to be a smooth, beveled surface?

As much as I'd like the spoiler bevel to be actual geometry, it's not realistic, well, not realistic for anyone to expect it of the PS3, anyway.

Wait wait wait wait...

People with PS3s can steal my internet because I have PS3s and vice versa?

LOL WUT?

Well no. But, in theory, it COULD do that at some point in the future. Currently you can only download from other PS3's and the content they already have on the HDD. But, if it's just a 0.5kb file every hour of gameplay...I wouldn't mind taking one for the team.

That said, I live in Australia, and here we have more non-lethal spiders than good internet connections.


(sorry for the DP)

 

[Seismica]

Nope.

It's not the quality of the lighting effects that's the problem. It's that they exist. You can turn the reflective properties of a material down 50%, it still uses the same power.

Think of it as typing 1111 + 1111 into a calculator. Uses the same amount of memory as calculating 2222 + 2222.

No it doesn't. Explain why the races in prologue can run at 60fps but replays only run at 30fps. I'll tell you why; it uses less effects, lighting, anti-aliasing etc. than the replays. But the replays only run at 30fps because the extra effects require more processing power. So if you take the race engine and reduce the graphical effects it will require less processing power (Sure, they need to put a bit - or a lot - of work in to do that)

What I did not mean, and I think you may have misunderstood my point here, is that it would take less processing power because there was nothing to reflect when it is cloudy. What I meant was, they could dumb some of the visual effects in that sort of weather without it being visually noticeable, hence reducing the processing power required and allowing enough to account for rain etc.

That said, there are a few things to think about for rain.

Firstly, the track. It's gotta be darker, a darker flat texture (which would be used for the tarmac) needs a bit more contrast, which drives up texture size.
Then, and probably most importantly, water pools and reflects! Reflection = huge performance hit. And these won't just reflect the world, they need to reflect the cars moving in it, so double that performance hit.
Add in some dry and drying lines, another hit.

Now to the cars.
For the strange uncivilized people who use chase cam, you'll need water flowing over the body of the car. This is a nightmare - remember those scratches? You've got to animate them to move over the texture of the body of the car.
Then there's the spray coming off the car, it's wheels, spoilers (remember those flick up a lot of spray). Nightmary.

For us legendary gentlemen who use driver cam, we've got wipers. Easy to animate the blades, pain to animate them WIPING OFF WATER FROM THE WINDSHIELD. And the way that happens will be different at different speeds, because the water won't fly up and over the top if you're standing still, will it?
And that spray has to appear in the rear view mirror (can't forget those).

That said, there are some tricks and gains to be made.

You won't be able to see as far, so you can drop the LODs for anything and everything by about ~35%. Save a couple of hundred thousand polys, a few meg of textures.

Shadows on the world won't be as noticable - those small things that cast visible but faint shadows in full light don't need them anymore. And you don't need anywhere near as much quality in the rest of the world because you're not going to see it.


Actually, those are the only two 'good' things to come from racing in the rain. P.D., good lock and god speed.

And i'm sure they have taken all of that into account

 

[TokyoDrift]

LOLNO

Look at the spoiler on the enzo. Look at the ends. 3 flat planes. Look at the middle. See how it appears to be a smooth, beveled surface?

As much as I'd like the spoiler bevel to be actual geometry, it's not realistic, well, not realistic for anyone to expect it of the PS3, anyway.

At that close-up, the spoiler geometry at the ends looks just fine (but flat as you say). However, what leaps out WAY more, are the straight lines and angles around the lights.

But, the million dollar question is, "Does it really matter?" No, certainly not for me. The car has detail in the places where the car needs it so that from most gameplay angles and even most close-ups, it looks bloody fantastic. While the cars could be improved, it really is a case of diminishing returns. Why spend twice as long making a car model look 10% better, when 90% of the time it will only be viewed from the outside during replays (by way of example)?

 

[Watevaman]

Nope. Even the stitching on leather interiors are polys. Which is nuts. Sometimes you'll find a shot of them working on a wireframe model and you'll see it's all polys. Considering the PS3 is better at rendering pure polygons vs normal maps, I'd see why that's a good call. That's why Unreal Engine 3 has had several "bad" years for the PS3 in terms of optimization, it's because the PS3 is bad at those normal maps.

I'm not talking about stitching (which takes maybe 5 or 6 tris), I'm talking about the dash, the radio, the seats, the leather, etc.

All that is normal mapped.

 

[Keitaro333]

Nope. Even the stitching on leather interiors are polys. Which is nuts. Sometimes you'll find a shot of them working on a wireframe model and you'll see it's all polys. Considering the PS3 is better at rendering pure polygons vs normal maps, I'd see why that's a good call. That's why Unreal Engine 3 has had several "bad" years for the PS3 in terms of optimization, it's because the PS3 is bad at those normal maps.

Stitching is most definitely a normal map, i couldnt imagine a bigger waste of power if it wasnt.
And of course it can be polys on a wireframe when they work on it, they have to make that normal map out of something. They model the cars more detailed and after they make the normal maps they put them on a lower detail versions of those models.

 

[Famine]

Well no. But, in theory, it COULD do that at some point in the future. Currently you can only download from other PS3's and the content they already have on the HDD. But, if it's just a 0.5kb file every hour of gameplay...I wouldn't mind taking one for the team.

Well no full stop. You aren't getting stuff off my PS3 or my internet connection unless I've given you access to it.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Exactly, you need to log-in with the account and download the stuff you want to your HDD from the Store.

 

[phosphor112]

I'm not talking about stitching (which takes maybe 5 or 6 tris), I'm talking about the dash, the radio, the seats, the leather, etc.

All that is normal mapped.

Negative. Look closely at all that stuff. It's all polygons. Otherwise you can see normal artifacts not to mention lots of the dash detail (like horn icons, smaller stitching like in the SLS) can be done using only textures... Also, why would they render a high poly model then use the lower one in game when they use only 1 model in game anyway? Forza 3, they do those things, but GT5P uses all the same models as it shows in the showroom.

Stitching is most definitely a normal map, i couldnt imagine a bigger waste of power if it wasnt.
And of course it can be polys on a wireframe when they work on it, they have to make that normal map out of something. They model the cars more detailed and after they make the normal maps they put them on a lower detail versions of those models.

Normal maps don't show up on a wireframe. It shows up as a texture (well of course like you said, you make the model first). Anyways, it's a fact that the PS3's rendering strength is polygons. KZ2 featured 500k polys per NPC. They only used normal maps for things like ground textures n such. Uncharted 2 is the same way. Renders a crap ton of polys but very little normal maps.

 

[Seismica]

Negative. Look closely at all that stuff. It's all polygons. Otherwise you can see normal artifacts not to mention lots of the dash detail (like horn icons, smaller stitching like in the SLS) can be done using only textures... Also, why would they render a high poly model then use the lower one in game when they use only 1 model in game anyway? Forza 3, they do those things, but GT5P uses all the same models as it shows in the showroom.



Normal maps don't show up on a wireframe. It shows up as a texture (well of course like you said, you make the model first). Anyways, it's a fact that the PS3's rendering strength is polygons. KZ2 featured 500k polys per NPC. They only used normal maps for things like ground textures n such. Uncharted 2 is the same way. Renders a crap ton of polys but very little normal maps.

Actually I think the models used in the race are scaled down. Infact i'm pretty sure they are, because we have been given so many different figures from various sources on the poly count for cars in GT5, ranging from 150-200k right up to 500k+.

 

[Perkel]

KZ2 featured 500k polys per NPC. They only used normal maps for things like ground textures n such. Uncharted 2 is the same way. Renders a crap ton of polys but very little normal maps.

i don't want to prove how wrong you are ...

EVERY SINGLE THING IN QUOTE IS WRONG !

If you don't know about graphic processing then don't try prove otherwise.

 

[deep_sky]

Man, it's hard to know which poster knows what they're talking about, what with all these contradictions...

 

[scope72]

Man, it's hard to know which poster knows what they're talking about, what with all these contradictions...

I do...

wait...

no I don't.

Please guys, if its something you think you know, please do not try to pretend you know for sure. There is a difference.

 

[CoolColJ]

LOLNO

Look at the spoiler on the enzo. Look at the ends. 3 flat planes. Look at the middle. See how it appears to be a smooth, beveled surface?

As much as I'd like the spoiler bevel to be actual geometry, it's not realistic, well, not realistic for anyone to expect it of the PS3, anyway.

It's called phong shading, it has nothing to do with normal/bump mapping. All 3D programs and renderers do it. You will never get a smooth surface in 3D without it, no matter how many polys you use. A smooth surface is infinitely smooth in real life

All those gaps between the panels are actual geometry. Those are areas where you would normally use bump/normal mapping...

 

[Perkel]

I do...

wait...

no I don't.

Please guys, if its something you think you know, please do not try to pretend you know for sure. There is a difference.

in age of internet you can find almost 100 vacum cleaner specialist on every forum

 

[Watevaman]

Negative. Look closely at all that stuff. It's all polygons. Otherwise you can see normal artifacts not to mention lots of the dash detail (like horn icons, smaller stitching like in the SLS) can be done using only textures... Also, why would they render a high poly model then use the lower one in game when they use only 1 model in game anyway? Forza 3, they do those things, but GT5P uses all the same models as it shows in the showroom.

Either you're not getting what I'm talking about or you're just being really dense.

Everything in the picture here is done using normal mapping:

 

[CoolColJ]

It's not even normal mapping, mostly just simple textures and rare use of bump mapping

plenty of real geometry here - even the screws are 3D

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/3885/gt5nascar2.jpg

 

[Watevaman]

Normal mapping and bumping are essentially the same tech, but normal mapping incorporates depth, and it's what is used more today. The bumps on the steering wheel are normal'd.

 

[alucard0712]

What I did not mean, and I think you may have misunderstood my point here, is that it would take less processing power because there was nothing to reflect when it is cloudy. What I meant was, they could dumb some of the visual effects in that sort of weather without it being visually noticeable, hence reducing the processing power required and allowing enough to account for rain etc.

Turning reflections off won't save many power simply because it's not real reflections.It's a "movie" running on car.Trick they used since GT3.

Im so hard on "no processing power left" because i know it's ALREADY optimized as hell.No skidmarks, no 3D trees,even there is no reflections on mirrors - simply GTPSP running backwards.You think why is that?I repeat HUGELY optimized engine.

But some things they can do:
Maybe using low poly car models when distant.(like Forza but more detailed when close)
Reducing resolution (to 720p).
Turning off anti-aliasing.

But they really don't want to do this that's why (i think) Kaz says "we have weather system done but we not sure about quality of it"

They wont one race runs in 1080p, the next one 720p.Again Kaz says "1080p and 60fps is MUST HAVE to enhance the experience"

My thoughts.Thanks.

 

[Custer85]

Don't all games use some sort of LOD System, which reduces the amount of polygons depending on the viewers distance to the object?
I allways thought the reflections in GT5 Prologue were realtime reflections, because they do reflect every single sign and billboard along the track, according to its position to the car.

Actually I shouldn't care. As long as the game looks as fantastic as it does, I give a d... on how they did it.

 

[Sureboss]

I know that this discussion is annoying some one in this forum,but only 20tracks in gt5 will suck me at all!!Yes I love the Ring,Sarthe,Suzuka and Fuji but come on Pd give us some new tracks;Pau,Monza,Imola,Spa.....I don't care about damage and day/night cycle but I do about more layouts!!
GT5 with 500cars,60tracks>>>>>>>>1000cars and only 20tracks

It's a bit of a flogged horse but...PD has used locations before, in GT4 there were 6 locations iirc. World Circuit, Dirt & Snow, Original, etc.

 

[alucard0712]

Yes GeForce use some kind of LOD by hardware,but maybe it's not so good as optimized, game engine's LOD.
XBOX videocard is more powerful and have more and quicker bandwidth, but they use it in Forza 3.I think it's makes sense.
Reflections seems to be prerendered.Cars,shadows are not reflected but they seems very accurate in GT5.I remember GT3 "reflect" things that simply not exist in track! that was a lot of fun...
It's great trick and saves a lot of power.Also check mirror "reflections" - it's GTPSP ))

 

[CoolColJ]

Well you know realtime calculations of reflections are incredible taxing? it's no surprise GT5 doesn't do it, nor many games for that matter.

The game's rendering engine would need to shoot a ray for every pixel from the camera to the mirror and calculate where it bounces to, every frame

 

[alucard0712]

^^^
That's what i'm trying to say.No power left.Almost no

 

[CoolColJ]

I'm sure they have power left, but just not enough memory to use it

PS3 has plenty of grunt, but 256megs - 50+ for OS is not quite enough

 

[Custer85]

Ah ok, the other cars are not reflected. I never noticed that those reflections were missing.

The Xbox360 videocard might, or might not be more powerful, but the Cell processor is there to do the job. And as of now the combination of the Cell and the PS3 video card is superior, as far as the visuals in recent exclusive games are concerned.

I just hope the visuals do not suffer because of the implementation of 3D, which is completely unnecissary in my eyes. There will probably be 10-15 people out there with a 3D TV and Gran Turismo 5. Including a feature, that only those few people will ever experience (wether its a good or bad experience) is wasted development time and money. SONY may want to push the 3D technology foreward, but Iam pretty sure it will never become as wide spread as FullHD TVs are today.

I hope the game remains unchanged because of 3D. When introducing 3D means, that they can only deliver 30fps 720p while runing the game in 3D, but playing in 2D will give us the expected 60fps 1080p 2xAA its fine with me.

 

[patriotzero]

There will be turn off-on function 3d feature in the game...

 

[Seismica]

I'm sure they have power left, but just not enough memory to use it

PS3 has plenty of grunt, but 256megs - 50+ for OS is not quite enough

Its 512MB overall, 256 general use, 256 dedicated for graphics.

But because of the nature of the cell processor, most of the regular RAM gets used for graphics anyway.

 

[sems4arsenal]

Cool little compilation about previous ces demos .

 

[mr_VOLCANO]

I'm sure they have power left, but just not enough memory to use it

PS3 has plenty of grunt, but 256megs - 50+ for OS is not quite enough

This is what I never have understand about ps3... isnt memory one of the cheaper parts? Why didnt Sony put in some extra memory to make the ps3 last longer

 

[Owen.C93]

DDR3 memory was far from cheap when the PS3 released.

But yes it is the weakest link in the PS3's specs.