GT5 Latest News & Discussion
- Thread starter gamelle71
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- 1,629
- RedSuinit
Based on my understanding of fluid mechanics (which as a science compromises drag, fluid friction, drag coefficients, and principles of density, and chemical bonds between atoms in a fluid) I think it is definitely reasonable, perhaps slightly exaggerated, but I don't think it is overly exaggerated to the degree that most around here seem to think. BUT I have no personal experience to back up what I think. What drives this question for me is nothing more than pure curiosity. Is there something that I just don't know that a lot of other people around here do?
- 1,629
- RedSuinit
Oh, we agree - exaggerated. You say slightly, and that's your experience, fair enough.
So, I'd really want realistic slipstream in gt5.I know I'm not the only one. Really big deal, imo.
No offence to anybody.
Well, possibly, if it is exaggerated, then I only think it is very slight. I want to know what has spurred on this thought that it is exaggerated to an extreme. I am just curious and don't want to bash or attack anyone, but I don't know what could spur on this train of thought other than personal feeling. Even though I doubt that many (if any) of us have had the experience in real life to actually make a good comparison between our real experience and our virtual one. If anyone can enlighten me, please do, my ears our open!
Timppaq
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Ok, this is just my opinion, and I'm not going to do a novel but few points of the draft not being realistic / being exaggerated:
- ghost car standing on the track --> you get draft of it.
- it starts about 1,6 secs off the car ahead of you. No matter the speed you're at..
- you can easily be overtaken on the s/f straight of Suzuka and overtake back to the first corner. (is it about 450m long? - don't know, an estimation)
Even if I don't have the real racing background, it doesn't take much to see it is not realistic.
- ghost car standing on the track --> you get draft of it.
- it starts about 1,6 secs off the car ahead of you. No matter the speed you're at..
- you can easily be overtaken on the s/f straight of Suzuka and overtake back to the first corner. (is it about 450m long? - don't know, an estimation)
Even if I don't have the real racing background, it doesn't take much to see it is not realistic.
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- 35,556
- Addison,Texas
- GTP_RACECAR
It wasn't really said per se, it was just the way I described the negative reaction to it, which is something I've never seen criticised on other games (not even the NASCAR games to my surprise, which was more like playing trains with Turtles
)Why yes, but I'm honestly not annoyed. Maybe because I don't have wheel but its never been that big a deal to me and this is coming from a huge race fan, who most of his weekend is catching one race after the other (in rare cases, up to nine in one weekend
) Not to say GT5 can't be, I just brought up something that was purpoise built for it. Of course your comment definately applies to those that don't exactly have the income to pay for a racing experiance every month.
- 71
- GTP_Mike_Delaney
In my experience of watching hundreds of races at Road America, I know the best place to be on the last lap in a Formula Vee or Spec Racer Ford race is 3rd or 4th. The draft is so strong that the 1st and 2nd place cars have no chance. Plus, those are cars that are hardly reaching 100 mph at the start/finish line.
- 6,804
- The Netherlands
Well, possibly, if it is exaggerated, then I only think it is very slight. I want to know what has spurred on this thought that it is exaggerated to an extreme. I am just curious and don't want to bash or attack anyone, but I don't know what could spur on this train of thought other than personal feeling. Even though I doubt that many (if any) of us have had the experience in real life to actually make a good comparison between our real experience and our virtual one. If anyone can enlighten me, please do, my ears our open!
I wouldn't know from experience either and to be honest I didn't mind the effect being as it is right now ( Prologue I mean ).
Although from what I've read on this forum by people who were critical of this element it mainly concerned the effect being replicated too soon, meaning the car ahead being too far away when the slipstream kicks in.
Again I wouldn't know whether this is realistic or not but this is I think why many feel it's exaggerated, not the effect itself but the timing/distance.
- 1,629
- RedSuinit
Ok, this is just my opinion, and I'm not going to do a novel but few points of the draft not being realistic / being exaggerated:
- ghost car standing on the track --> you get draft of it.
- it starts about 1,6 secs off the car ahead of you. No matter the speed you're at..
- you can easily be overtaken on the s/f straight of Suzuka and overtake back to the first corner. (is it about 450m long? - don't know, an estimation)
Even if I don't have the real racing backround, it doesn't take much to see it is not realistic.
Really? That is bad. I have not experienced any draft from a ghost car. Or do you mean online where another players car is just sitting on the track in the state where you can drive though it?
The other two points don't seem wrong to me.
- 1,629
- RedSuinit
Yes, online for the first point and speaking about a lapped car standing still on the track.
The other points.. hmm ok. If that's ok with you, I have no problem with it, of course. But realistic?
That's awful! That needs to be fixed for sure.
Like I said, I don't know from personal experience, but based on my understanding of fluid mechanics, (which admittedly might not be the greatest, but I feel like I can speak on the subject with a fair amount of certainty based on my schooling) I do think that it is fairly realistic, however it may be slightly exaggerated, I only wish I had some real life experience in this area.
- 10,403
- GTP_Spag69
- spagetti69
I'm not sure so don't shoot me.
If your a certain distance away shouldn't the effect be known as dirty air. What I mean is when you are close you will get a tow. But a bit further back causes the airstream to effect your aero. Slightly further back again equals no effect.
If you get my drift ( no pun intended ).
If your a certain distance away shouldn't the effect be known as dirty air. What I mean is when you are close you will get a tow. But a bit further back causes the airstream to effect your aero. Slightly further back again equals no effect.
If you get my drift ( no pun intended ).
Timppaq
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Don't know jack about fluids (beer maybe), but do you need life experience (as if racing real cars) having an opinion about a sports car (/ racing car) overtaking another at the start of under 500m straight and then being overtaken back before the next corner? Would like to see one yt vid like that. If we find one, I won't say a word about the draft..
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Timppaq
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I'd guess so, and the speed the vehicles are moving makes a BIG difference, hence my points.
edit,
sorry double, the bear got me.
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- 6,804
- The Netherlands
I'm not very knowledgeable either about this issue but the effect is also highly dependant on the specific aerodynamics of the cars in question, F1 cars for example are far more sensitive to what you're decribing than a family hatchback.
Don't know jack about fluids (beer maybe), but do you need life experience having an opinion about a sports car (/ racing car) overtaking another at the start of under 500m straight and then being overtaken back before the next corner? Would like to see one yt vid like that. If we find one, I won't say a word about the draft..
You may be right but don't forget slipstream could perhaps still be realistically replicated ( as in laws of physics ) in a game whilst the action you're describing may not be replicated in real life due to other reasons ( a real situation comes with fear, etc. not apparant whilst playing a game ).
- 814
- Goes_To_11 GTP_GoesTo11
Would you mind elaborating a little more on how your experience makes you believe that its realistic? I'm not an engineer but I have published in engineering journals. I would have thought that it would be very hard to predict what the actual effect would be. I would have thought that you would need some fairly sophisticated data to be able to calculate what effect slipstreaming should have.
Personally, I feel like it is exaggerated but that is just based on my limited driving experience and watching some racing. It just doesn't seem realistic that you can catapult from 6 or 7th to 1rst or 2nd in one corner on an oval against the same cars against arguable faster drivers. It almost seems like the game gives you a set acceleration boost that doesn't change until you leave the slip stream. If you start further back in the draft you can really get a run on the other driver and fly past them. I don't see that in real life racing. Fluid dynamics are very complicated. Just look at how much formula 1 spends on f ducts and exhaust blown diffusers and so on. I could be wrong but GT5Ps slipstreaming just doesn't jive with what I see on TV.
Timppaq
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Funny enough, one of the best people to answer this all would be Mr.Kaz Or Lucas (some REAL racing experience + good skills & experience on GT). For most of us, the best reference truly is the TV. What I see there is when the best gets a great passing chance they won't miss it - there isn't much place for fear. And also you get a pretty good reference about the differences the draft makes in top speeds, after the main straight, seeing one clip of Nascar.
Or Lucas (some REAL racing experience + good skills & experience on GT). For most of us, the best reference truly is the TV. What I see there is when the best gets a great passing chance they won't miss it - there isn't much place for fear. And also you get a pretty good reference about the differences the draft makes in top speeds, after the main straight, seeing one clip of Nascar.
- 1,629
- RedSuinit
Well from my studies and what I understand, due to fluid friction (meaning the friction between the fluid and the moving surface) the air both moves out of the way, and speeds up to the speed of the vehicle. Now, based on the speed of car one, and the speed of car two, if car two reaches the moving and dispersed air before it returns to normal speed, (due to the friction between air molecules) then the drag is reduced. The formula for drag force is Fd = 1/2p * v^2 * Dc * A however this is a VERY basic formula. However the KEY here is v^2! (where v represent the relative velocity of the object with respect to the air. Now car one is experiencing the full affect of the drag force, however as long as car two is in the dispersed and moving air, drag force is reduced exponentially. For example if the speed of car one is 70 mph relative to the air and car two is 50 mph relative to the air (while the car is actually moving 70 mph) then the difference in the drag force will be a factor of 20^2 or 400! Which would make a HUGE difference in how much force the car has to exert in order to accelerate the car. However like I said, this is basic, there are a lot of factors in play, but like I said, I can see how the effects in GT5p would be reasonable and realistic. HOWEVER being able to draft a non-moving car is impossible.
Dapper
(Banned)
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Unless professional drivers dislike passing, the draft in GT5p and the videos of the GT5 demo is unrealistic. Mr. Timp is completely right, must be the beer. 
Passes are made in GT5p that have nothing to do with corner speed or having a power advantage. 👎
Passes are made in GT5p that have nothing to do with corner speed or having a power advantage. 👎
- 5,603
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- GTP_Sigma
Just like many of the other great cars in the past, namely the Sauber C9 Mercedes.
I am glad to see it is not initially accessible, and there will be at least a modicum of challenge to unlock it. Lets just hope for most peoples sake that its not the prize for getting all gold licences, otherwise that will cheese quite a lot of people off.
- 1,629
- RedSuinit
Unless professional drivers dislike passing, the draft in GT5p and the videos of the GT5 demo is unrealistic. Mr. Timp is completely right, must be the beer.
I disagree, there are a LOT of rules, regs and DANGERS to making the kind of passes like what happens on GT.
For example, watch this video.
Now it doesn't show a double pass, and the car behind is fairly close to begin with, but it does show you how much draft can affect driving speed. But F1 cars disperse so little air in the first place, and unlike regular cars, even long straights aren't long. So I don't know how good of a comparison this is.
Timppaq
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I this case, what would be the cars in question, and what then would be the distance between them (at this exact moment) to make this a realistic situation? And how did you conclude those?
If you can't answer those questions, that doesn't tell anything about the realism of the slipstream in gt5p. At some brief moment, I'm sure the draft effect is 100% correct, but is the distance to the front runner car right too?
I'm not taking any sides if what you wrote is true or not. I'm just a 'normal' engineer.
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- 1,629
- RedSuinit
I this case, what would be the cars in question, and what then would be the distance between them (at this exact moment) to make this a realistic situation? And how did you conclude those?
If you can't answer those questions, that doens't tell anything about the realism of the slipstream in gt5p. At some brief moment, I'm sure the draft effect is 100% correct, but is the distance to the front runner car right too?
I'm not taking any sides if what you wrote is true or not. I'm just a 'normal' engineer.
I wouldn't know. Like I said, this is solely based on my understanding of fluid mechanics, which isn't my forte. I am much, MUCH, better at mechanics systems, and dynamics. I could be way off, (and quite honestly probably am) I was merely looking for what thoughts and ideas led to the conclusion that GT draft is over-exaggerated. Most of what I have heard sound really intelligent and quite reasonable. Perhaps it is extremely exaggerated.
Of course, hence why I said that what I was presenting was VERY basic, but does represent the concept of how drastic draft can be.
I am not trying to prove that GT has it right, I just want to understand what mindset brought forth this whole "GT is super exaggerated draft" stuff came from, and like I said already, what has been said is intelligent, and reasonable. So perhaps I am very wrong about the draft in GT.
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