GT5 Sound Thread

[Uxi]

Was doing the Prius seasonal since I won one free.... was amused that it has the deepest engine note I've heard yet (i did put a sports exhaust on it and usually have the titanium racing on all the other cars)...

 

[calan_svc]

The problem I have with the sound in cockpit view is that it is not centered.

I do understand why. It is because PD has created a sound system with specific sources located in the threedimensional space. Exhaust, engine, tires and whatnot all have their sounds located at the places they are being generated. A good idea at first glance. But this generates the problem that when you're in a car, you usually don't sit in the center and therefore will hear the engine (and probably the exaust) louder on one side, which I find quite annoying.

Also, this is not the case in a real car due to the numerous reflections inside the cabin and most surfaces generating their own sound through vibrations and resonances.

This might not be the case in a surround sound setup, but every stereo setup is prone to this ... oversight. I have only used stereo headphones and stereo speakers so far, and I'd be happy if any surround sound owner with sensitive ears could confirm or deny this problem for multichannel setups.

There's several posts in this thread about it. It bugs the hell out of me; probably even more annoying than the majority of lame sounds themselves.

 

[zedextreme8177]

The Ferrari F1 cars aren't that bad, the upshifts just need to be faster (which if I'm not mistaken, you can actully yourself when you mess around with the gearing). The F10 is an improvement in regards to syncing the two tones over the F2007, which appears unchanged from Prologue and still off. My only problem with the FGT is the gearwhine and how it tends to overpower the engine tone (a problem with many race cars in GT5).




To be fair, the road car in GT5 is a representative of a finished, mass-produced road car (which ironically, Citreon did say would have a choice of engine options before the news came that it wouldn't be mass produced). That car there is the rolling concept car and that doesn't even sound like a finished transmission.

True about the Citroen GT Prototype with the V8. The car doesn't even have a reverse gear.

The FGT description states that it is powered by a V12 spinning to 18,500 rpm, while the engine sound doesn't match up at all.

For example, this video shows a 1995 Ferrari 412, with a V12 at 17,500 rpm


PD needs to up the priority on realistic engine sounds This is how cars should sound in a videogame





And now compare to the actual car in this video (incar footage starts at about 30 seconds)

 

[JoeMaPampang]

That was sick /\/\/\/\ It sounds just like the real deal. nice

 

[Killinator]

That was sick /\/\/\/\ It sounds just like the real deal. nice

Ya, sometimes 'pre-canned' sounds just work,
If GT sounded like that I wouldn't give a 'insert expletive' if it was 'pre-canned', realtime or magic powered.

Theres no point bragging about real time engine sound or damage if its not up to par with the non real time stuff out there in other games,

Sounds like the above are done by people in their spare time getting no money for it,

Heres an idea PD get these guys to work for ya and send the guys your using out into the real world and let them hear what a car actually sounds like outside a laboratory.

 

[Griffith500]

Ya, sometimes 'pre-canned' sounds just work,
If GT sounded like that I wouldn't give a 'insert expletive' if it was 'pre-canned', realtime or magic powered.

Theres no point bragging about real time engine sound or damage if its not up to par with the non real time stuff out there in other games,

Sounds like the above are done by people in their spare time getting no money for it,

Heres an idea PD get these guys to work for ya and send the guys your using out into the real world and let them hear what a car actually sounds like outside a laboratory.

You're missing the point somewhat. If the goal is to make the in-game car sound like the car does in the YouTube videos, then it is very easy to achieve success, assuming you can isolate enough decent parts of the recordings to use as clean loops (no mean feat in itself.) In essence, you're making the game sound like the video by using the soundtrack from the video. Not especially difficult - but all credit to the modders, just the same.

PD's challenge is to use their multitude of recordings of the actual car, which if you were to listen to, wouldn't necessarily sound like the car "in use". It's a by-product of the high-fidelity recording methods, that isolate only parts of the car and nothing else - we rarely hear cars in that way. That's where the sound designers come in (of which there appear to be two, in charge of all sound in the game.)
It's their job to make the car sound like the real thing from a bunch of disembodied recordings, using some form of reference - the tendency nowadays seems to be to rely on track recordings of the car driving about, accelerating, braking etc. Most of which could probably never be used to sample from (though it would be "perfect" for these so-called amateur mods, it seems.)

In many cases, I'd imagine that such a reference is not available; that, coupled with the mammoth task of being personally familiar with the sound of every car in the game, probably accounts for a good deal of the perceived inaccuracy (in any game). Add to that an insistence to avoid using intake sounds at all, or the vibration of the engine (very important in race cars) in the mix and the problem gets quite dire.


This latter point is why cockpit sounds are so "lifeless" - it's all well and good relying on the 3D positioning audio for the exterior views (it works very well, in fact - overlooking the dodgy "engine" sound, or inaccurate exhaust sound) but, as mentioned in other posts above, the sound of the car is transmitted (and selectively amplified and attenuated) through the body and reflected and absorbed inside the cabin. This not only has an effect on the spectral balance of the sound, but introduces a whole new set of unique sounds / sources which would be almost impossible to hear outside the car, or even in the engine bay.

It's a bit like trying to model the sound of a violin using only the sound the strings make - it's well known that the "secret" to the specific sound of a violin (and the differences between a great one or an average one) is all to do with the body and the cavity it encapsulates - the difference being that it is specifically designed to radiate this coloured sound, whilst a car is not. This is why you need a specific interior-mix, separate from the 3D-positional external stuff. However, you're almost never going to be able to perfectly simulate the effect of the chassis / shell and cabin on the sound, just as people have really struggled with simulating the effect of the violin's construction on its sound - particularly with dynamic changes (also why "canned" sounds are inferior.)

The next challenge, then, is how to get good reference material for interior sounds, since most "onboard" recordings are quite terrible, given the huge dynamic range required, and the types of sounds present. For example, isolating the camera microphone from the vibration is considered a good idea, but you need that sound... the question is, how much of it? There's loads of it on that Ferrari F1 video above, for instance - is that accurate?

 

[RACECAR]

I'm not so sure I agree on the Porsche. Only thing I hear thats about right on is the tone itself(even then, its slightly still off pitch in high revs). The gearwhine is unfortunately still the generic one heard on many rFactor mods. Again, gearwhine is not the same on all race cars and unfortunately, people still seem to struggle to understand this. PD sounds are not that bad, just inconsistancy is the issue. For some cars, they actually have managed to get quite close (Peugeot 908, Ferrari 458 Italia), others they have alot of work to do on. Overall there is progress, but there is still plenty of room to improve.


Also Killinator, might I ask where they "bragged" about there damage and Sound? Only thing I remember said was how they were gonna approach damage and sound wasn't even mentioned until TGS, where it was stated to be improved. I think you might have heard a few fans once again spewing fabricated nonsense as fact(something they still are doing in the GT5 forums)

 

[Killinator]

I understand PD is going a different route with the sounds, they even clearly have the sounds for alot of the cars but the system they use isnt good enough,
I take the R10 for example, it has the right engine sound in lower revs but then as you go higher and higher it starts to sound nothing like the R10 Diesel and just starts to sound like a computer generated noise(I appreciate thats what it really is but I'm sure you get my point).
PD might have a good engine that changes the sound depending on where you hear it from, that still doesn't change the fact that the R10 dosn't sound anything close to the real deal, and I know, I 'experienced' what they sound like IRL.

And as far as 'bragging' is concerned I may have used the wrong term, but when I hear the words 'expect perfection' I expect alot more than what was given in that regard,
When Kaz says they won't do damage unless they do it right then I expect better than bumps and paint scrathces at 300kmph,
When they say they're redoing the sound I expect sound thats significantly better on all cars and not just a few, while the rest still sound like GT1/GT2.

I'd much rather GT sounded like GTR and Forza even with their 'inferior' sound engines on the basis the cars sound better, maybe not as much of a technical achievement or as complex,
But I'd take what sounds like the real instrument over what sounds like a synthesised instrument any day, I'm not bothered how either sound is made, just the end result!

 

[zedextreme8177]

I understand PD is going a different route with the sounds, they even clearly have the sounds for alot of the cars but the system they use isnt good enough,
I take the R10 for example, it has the right engine sound in lower revs but then as you go higher and higher it starts to sound nothing like the R10 Diesel and just starts to sound like a computer generated noise(I appreciate thats what it really is but I'm sure you get my point).
PD might have a good engine that changes the sound depending on where you hear it from, that still doesn't change the fact that the R10 dosn't sound anything close to the real deal, and I know, I 'experienced' what they sound like IRL.

And as far as 'bragging' is concerned I may have used the wrong term, but when I hear the words 'expect perfection' I expect alot more than what was given in that regard,
When Kaz says they won't do damage unless they do it right then I expect better than bumps and paint scrathces at 300kmph,
When they say they're redoing the sound I expect sound thats significantly better on all cars and not just a few, while the rest still sound like GT1/GT2.

I'd much rather GT sounded like GTR and Forza even with their 'inferior' sound engines on the basis the cars sound better, maybe not as much of a technical achievement or as complex,
But I'd take what sounds like the real instrument over what sounds like a synthesised instrument any day, I'm not bothered how either sound is made, just the end result!

100% agreed:tup:

You can have a very advanced sound engine, but it may not produce realistic sounds at all. It's just like saying that using an advanced speaker system is much better, even if it sounds totally:censored:

Eg: I race modded my Corvette C6- Big mistake. The car now has the generic exhaust sound from GT3, which sounds nothing like a 7 liter V8.

I don't care how the sounds are made, as long as it's as close to real life as possible.

I'm not so sure I agree on the Porsche. Only thing I hear thats about right on is the tone itself(even then, its slightly still off pitch in high revs).

That Rfactor Porsche definitely sounds more realistic than any car in GT5, even though it uses a simpler sound engine. The 908 sounds a bit too high-pitched and doesn't have any proper rumble you'd expect from a Diesel.

 

[JoeMaPampang]

 

[doktor]

I just got a 908 Le Mans, and... i think they didn't heard the real deal.
On diesel High Performance Car, you heard the transmission sound and the turbos whistling much louder than the motor himself, i was present at Le Mans in 2008, sounds are way too differents than the real deal.

 

[CoolColJ]

I'd much rather GT sounded like GTR and Forza even with their 'inferior' sound engines on the basis the cars sound better, maybe not as much of a technical achievement or as complex,
But I'd take what sounds like the real instrument over what sounds like a synthesised instrument any day, I'm not bothered how either sound is made, just the end result!

You also have to take into account GT5 runs on a different platform with it's own advantages and disadvantges, 360 and PC games have more memory to play with. PS3 has a lot of bandwidth and processing grunt, but lacks in system memory. 200+ megs after the XMB allocation is used. The rest is video memory.

There isn't one PC game that can run on 200 megs. I know GTR Evolution, which uses the same game engine as RFactor has some sound sets that approach 30 megs! Audi R8 set is around 20 megs for example, and the sample system it not even that complex, just 3-4 samples over the rev range, on/off throttle etc, and it's already that large.

Don't think PD has the luxury of giving 12-16 cars on track that much memory...

 

[Carbonfiber]

There's plenty of new material here, and good discussion. I choose to take apart just this post on my visit today:

I'm not so sure I agree on the Porsche. Only thing I hear thats about right on is the tone itself(even then, its slightly still off pitch in high revs).

So like most GT5 car sounds then? You borrowed my opinion.

The gearwhine is unfortunately still the generic one heard on many rFactor mods.

Incorrect, this gearwhine is a completely new sample by modders, Enduracers. Generic gearwhine would be GT5 in a nutshell. rFactor had only 2 distinict transmission samples but a third was made by Enduracers which has the canned warble effect.

Again, gearwhine is not the same on all race cars and unfortunately, people still seem to struggle to understand this.

If you wish to change a gearwhine sample, raise or lower volume mix, or remove completely. It can be done very simply by .sfx editing for personalisation. I switch old samples over to this new sample by myself on my installation. Canned effects over nothing is so much better than that generic sample from GTR2.

If modders had the sort of money that PD had, we would probably have over 30 transmission samples to choose from by now, it's all relative to what can be achieved on a budget. Remember Forza 3 devs had a few contraptions built to make pure gearwhine sounds. If only modders could get hold of that kind of equipment!

PD sounds are not that bad, just inconsistancy is the issue. For some cars, they actually have managed to get quite close (Peugeot 908, Ferrari 458 Italia), others they have alot of work to do on. Overall there is progress, but there is still plenty of room to improve.

Close, but no cigar. (sorry couldn't resist) The best they get right is the tone, a stale poker-faced tone. If PS3 is limited by memory I don't see how they can improve what they have done already. But hey, on the bright side, a racing keyboard gives you more "information" about what the engine is doing and helps you race faster for some reason (I've heard). Real sounds will spoil times, so better is often worse for those types of people out there.

 

[Obli]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtMlQw5uC0w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdAMcNUlv_8

I also don't care how the sound is captured and reproduced if the end result is decent. Those Forza 3 engine sounds are a huge improvement in comparison to GT5's engine sounds.

 

[RACECAR]

That Rfactor Porsche definitely sounds more realistic than any car in GT5, even though it uses a simpler sound engine.

*sigh* why is this the usual retort I get for disagreeing about another game's sounds?

The 908 sounds a bit too high-pitched and doesn't have any proper rumble you'd expect from a Diesel.

Its not really that bad when compared side-to-side (something that can't be said for the R10 ). My take on it:

I must say, the Peugeot 908 is not too far off its real life counterpart. Major wind noise and diesel tone is there. The only three things I see would make it perfect is lower the overall volume of the engine tone on the outside to the point the wind noise overpowers it as it passes by, increase the volume of gear whine where its audible (on the outside) when its going through slow corners and bring the engine tone down about an octive or two as well as its volume in the cockpit so the gearwhine is heard in low revs.

The Audi R10 on the other hand (you can tell I'm visibly dissapointed with this) has so much wrong with it, I'd be violating the AUP trying to describe it.

So like most GT5 car sounds then? You borrowed my opinion.

Borrowed your opinion? I don't get it. Also, I wouldn't say Most GT5 cars. Some, but not most. More like, a few.

Incorrect, this gearwhine is a completely new sample by modders, Enduracers. Generic gearwhine would be GT5 in a nutshell. rFactor had only 2 distict transmission samples but a third was made by Enduracers which has the canned warble effect.

Quite honestly, I can't tell the difference but then again, it doesn't help that I'm listening to the samples on my other laptop's one speaker so I'll need to listen to it on my primery one and therefore, I'll retract my stance on that for now. I disagree on assessment Generic gearwhine in GT5. For instance, the gearwhine on the Pagani Zonda R doesn't even sound remotely close to the Lexus IS-F Racing Concept. Likewise, the Gearwhine (that isn't even supposed to be there in the first place) on the NASCAR COTs don't sound exactly the same as the Peugeot 908.

If you wish to change a gearwhine sample, raise or lower volume mix, or remove completely. It can be done very simply by .sfx editing for personalisation. I switch old samples over to this new sample by myself on my installation. Canned effects over nothing is so much better than that generic sample from GTR2.

If modders had the sort of money that PD had, we would probably have over 30 transmission samples to choose from by now, it's all relative to what can be achieved on a budget. Remember Forza 3 devs had a few contraptions built to make pure gearwhine sounds. If only modders could get hold of that kind of equipment!

To be blunt, I don't think any of the devs working with the higher budgets of Microsoft and Sony are even in the field of Motorsport and I also am curious to know if these modders actually get access to these cars or just use youtube videos as someone suggested.




Close, but no cigar. (sorry couldn't resist) The best they get right is the tone, a stale poker-faced tone. If PS3 is limited by memory I don't see how they can improve what they have done already. But hey, on the bright side, a racing keyboard gives you more "information" about what the engine is doing and helps you race faster for some reason (I've heard). Real sounds will spoil times, so better is often worse for those types of people out there.[/QUOTE]

 

[Killinator]

You also have to take into account GT5 runs on a different platform with it's own advantages and disadvantges, 360 and PC games have more memory to play with. PS3 has a lot of bandwidth and processing grunt, but lacks in system memory. 200+ megs after the XMB allocation is used........
.......
.......
Don't think PD has the luxury of giving 12-16 cars on track that much memory...

I'm not going pretend to understand the technical aspects as I'd surely just make a fool of myself if I did and be exposed by the clearly much better informed posters in this forum,
But I find it hard to believe the PS3 is holding PD back in sound regards when GT5 is such an over achiever in other areas(premium detail, weather, track creator),
Also again I'm not up on the technicalities so perhaps my point is flawed but how does a game like Battlefield BC2 : Vietnam sound so ear meltingly good(with so much happening at the same time) on all platforms(xbox, PS3 and PC)?
If EA/Dice can do it then why can't PD, I'm well aware of EA's spending power(nothing is too expensive) but GT was no budget title either.

 

[Zer0]

I'm not going pretend to understand the technical aspects as I'd surely just make a fool of myself if I did and be exposed by the clearly much better informed posters in this forum,
But I find it hard to believe the PS3 is holding PD back in sound regards when GT5 is such an over achiever in other areas(premium detail, weather, track creator),
Also again I'm not up on the technicalities so perhaps my point is flawed but how does a game like Battlefield BC2 : Vietnam sound so ear meltingly good(with so much happening at the same time) on all platforms(xbox, PS3 and PC)?
If EA/Dice can do it then why can't PD, I'm well aware of EA's spending power(nothing is too expensive) but GT was no budget title either.

See it in the same way as visual damage. GT5 approach is more advanced and complex in the sense of a real simulated environment sound. Damage is the same, real time damage is more advanced and realistic than precalculated damage but that don't means that with the actual hardware restrictions will look or sound better.

There were arcade games in the 90s with sampled sounds that sounded more realistic than most simulators today but that is not the way to generate a simulated sound accurately, just an old school place holder recording.

The future games with the best simulated sound and most realistic damage will choose the GT route for accuracy. It's like the first polygon games vs the older 2D sprite games, at first were less detailed but more real at the same time. Now are even more detailed and real than any 2D game in the past.

 

[CoolColJ]

I'm not going pretend to understand the technical aspects as I'd surely just make a fool of myself if I did and be exposed by the clearly much better informed posters in this forum,
But I find it hard to believe the PS3 is holding PD back in sound regards when GT5 is such an over achiever in other areas(premium detail, weather, track creator),
Also again I'm not up on the technicalities so perhaps my point is flawed but how does a game like Battlefield BC2 : Vietnam sound so ear meltingly good(with so much happening at the same time) on all platforms(xbox, PS3 and PC)?
If EA/Dice can do it then why can't PD, I'm well aware of EA's spending power(nothing is too expensive) but GT was no budget title either.

They left out PS Eye head tracking in online and GT Life, due to lack of memory, that should tell you the PS3 is holding back GT5, and they have to budget down everything extremely tight, memory wise. What about the low res frame buffer with the smoke, reflections and shadows?

If PD wanted really nice sounds I'm sure they could have done it, but then something else will suffer. Well PS Eye head tracking will still be missing in that case, but skid marks might not be around, along with dynamic weather and lighting maybe, less cars on track most probably, like just one car type at a time or AI cars have a generic hum like in GT1

F1 2010 on the consoles is limited to 2MB for all the sounds, according to the devs, to give you an idea of the compromises you have to make.

It's like a pie graph, make the sound part larger, and some other area of the pie will have to shrink. With the PS3 CPU grunt is more abundant so doing things with processing and streaming, rather than memory usage that needs to be stored will be easier

 

[Bigbazz]

Forza sounds are off in a different way, those videos sound like someone slapped a microphone infront of the exhaust pipe exit. GT5 sounds like a digital/midi reproduction of the sound of a car, and most Rfactor mods are made up of a combination of digital/midi and actual recordsings. The actual recordings thing, if done right can sound fantastic. Though its not something you would want to have to do if you have over a thousand cars to emulate, its just not viable.

 

[calan_svc]

You also have to take into account GT5 runs on a different platform with it's own advantages and disadvantges

...

Don't think PD has the luxury of giving 12-16 cars on track that much memory...

If that were the case, then every car would sound like 🤬.

Since a (very) few cars actually sound quite good, that proves that they have the technical ability to make any and all cars sound good. What they are missing is the time, motivation, manpower...whatever it is. But it isn't a technical issue.

 

[CoolColJ]

What?

How is lack of memory budget = not technical.

If everything was unlimited, you can accomplish anything, but there are usually restrictions.
I hear pitch shifting at the low RPM for every car, even the so called good ones, so there are still memory issues here.
With more memory, you could use a proper low RPM sound rather than pitch shifting it down

 

[calan_svc]

What?

How is lack of memory budget = not technical.

If everything was unlimited, you can accomplish anything, but there are usually restrictions.
I hear pitch shifting at the low RPM for every car, even the so called good ones, so there are still memory issues here.
With more memory, you could use a proper low RPM sound rather than pitch shifting it down

I never said that more memory isn't better.

I'm just saying that I don't think the wimpy sounds are due to memory or other hardware constraints. If that was the problem, there would be NO decent sounding cars at all. Since some are fairly good, there is no technical reason that they can't all be at least decent, IMHO.

 

[CoolColJ]

Even the good ones, still sound really bad just off idle, or up at the top end due to the pitch shifting used, which means they couldn't use enough samples to make it sound nice. That in turn means they didn't have enough memory - again a technical limitation

 

[calan_svc]

I respect your opinion, but I'll have to disagree.

I think a lot of the sounds are %#$^ because of too much layering and processing. Nothing's more annoying to me than the doubled/harmonized engine sounds, especially after permanent engine upgrades. Some even have a horrible octave effect applied or stomp box flanger effect. WTF?

Better but fewer samples and less processing = win for both us and the PS3 memory.

 

[CoolColJ]

The flanging is due to the fake reverb and slap back echo effects. You do need these effects as that is what makes a car sound nice in a tunnel or on a stadium driveby. But the way they did it sounds like a cheap method to save memory again and processing power

Proper reverb takes a lot of CPU grunt and memory as the sounds have to be held in memory to process and playback the long reverb tails.
Cheap echo simulates this to some extent, but creates a chorus, flanging, phasing effect

 

[calan_svc]

The flanging is due to the fake reverb and slap back echo effects. You do need these effects as that is what makes a car sound nice in a tunnel or on a stadium driveby. But the way they did it sounds like a cheap method to save memory again and processing power

Proper reverb takes a lot of CPU grunt and memory as the sounds have to be held in memory to process and playback the long reverb tails.
Cheap echo simulates this to some extent, but creates a chorus, flanging, phasing effect

Meh... convincing reverb can be done with no CPU at all; it's just a matter of getting the proper density, duration, and amplitude of the individual reflections. (Simple guitar stomp boxes were doing it 15-20 years ago with a few discrete IC's). I don't know what DSP chip (or equivalent) the PS3 has, but I'd bet good money it is way more than capable of handling GT5's sound requirements.

The flange effect is usually most noticeable when there shouldn't be any reverb at all (maybe a few early reflections off bleachers or what not, but no dense sound field); so I think it was purposely thrown in at the last minute to cover up the poor samples. Besides that, true flanging (much less chorusing) works with delays that are far shorter than typical early reflections or reverb is composed of.

Regardless of that ^, other games manage convincing sounds on the PS3, so PD has no excuse after this much time to figure it out. They don't get a pass of any type on the subject as far as I'm concerned.

 

[CoolColJ]

Yeah sure, my Roland SRE-555 Space Echo, analog tape delay unit, has decent spring reverb, but it's an analog device, and you sure aren't getting it in a PS3! Try some reverb plugins, even cheap ones on the PC, and you'll how much grunt they take up when you need a 5-6 second decay duration, something that doesn't sound like a small room. That's in isolation, GT5 needs to do a lot of things at the same time.

List the games then - if it includes Shift, then it's a fail, because it has terrible sounds. Even the PC version is terrible. Cheap, nasty, glitchy, stepped and distorted sounds. Hardly convincing. Every game has some "fail" somewhere.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

PGR4 has the best sounds I've experienced in a racing game. No PC games come close, IMO. Everything sounds pitch perfect and all of the effects sound just proper. Anyone else feel the same?

I was noticing that very, very few of the cars have low frequency sound. I just wonder if....preposterously...PD uses low quality mics to record the engine sounds?

 

[calan_svc]

Yeah sure, my Roland SRE-555 Space Echo, analog tape delay unit, has decent spring reverb, but it's an analog device, and you sure aren't getting it in a PS3! Try some reverb plugins, even cheap ones on the PC, and you'll how much grunt they take up when you need a 5-6 second decay duration, something that doesn't sound like a small room. That's in isolation, GT5 needs to do a lot of things at the same time.

I've used ProTools, Cakewalk (since ver 9), Sonar, Cubase, etc. for years. I ran multiple plugins on 24 tracks at once on a PC several years ago...so I know all about the resources that VST plugins require, and I won't argue that point.

List the games then...

I'm not about to open that can of worms, and I don't have to. As I've said, GT5 itself proves that PD has the ability to model some pretty decent sounds. (69 Camaro RM comes to mind, one or two race cars, etc). In fact, quite a few of the American v8's sound pretty good; not perfect by any stretch, but not bad. They just ran out of the time or resources that were needed to do it for every car; or at the very least a LOT more of them.

I'll just agree to disagree, since it's pretty obvious you aren't gonna jump off the "justify PD" bandwagon on the sound issue.

BTW - Props on the audio background. Musician, engineer, or both?

 

[arctec34]

some cars sound great, but the WORST are any c6 corvette, and subaru boxer engines...