GT5 Sound Thread

[zedextreme8177]

IMO: The ONLY things PD need to get correct are the sound samples. Then add in effects such as backfires, gear-shift clicks, supercharger whine, and random crackles from the exhaust.

Anyways, here are some more comparisons of the V12 cars which have their sounds butchered (I couldn't find a better word!)

Enzo Ferrari
GT5 (skip to 3:46):


Real life:


Lamborghini Murciélago
GT5:


Real life:


Pagani Zonda R
GT5:


Real life:



The following cars have the V12 note, but still do not fully sound like them. The DB9 is a really close one though.

Lamborghini Countach LP400 '74

GT5 (Skip to 1:52):


Real-life:


Mclaren F1
GT5:


Real life (Skip to 4:10):


Now compare that to the F1 in Forza:


Forza might have a less sophisticated engine sound system, but they manage to get the samples correct, which makes a HUGE difference!

And here is the DB9, which comes VERY close, but still needs a bit more of the growl.

GT5 (Skip to 0:54):


Real life:


Now if PD can get the Corvette Z06 right:

GT5:


Real life:


Why can't they get the V12's right?! I'd definitely be driving these more often if the sounded like they should!

 

[Griffith500]

One word: Intake. Still absent; hence why the interior sounds are so far off. A V12's intake is pretty important, otherwise it's all high pitched scream / 3 cylinder growl. The six-in-a-row arrangement and resulting relative delays (of the order of a millisecond or so per cylinder) give the intake "pulse-train" a distinctly lumpy character that modulates the entire sound of the car. The "synthetic" sound is the recording of the engine, so all the whirry stuff, none of the pressure-difference, flow-inducing, explodey stuff.

It's a shame that GTR3 seems to be neglecting environment effects, too.

EDIT: ^ wow, big post. Yeah, samples (especially allocation) are the single biggest issue. No FM4 distortion, though. Please. It's really not necessary to that extent.

 

[Dude27]

I think the external engine sounds are the one PD should focus on... internal are not amazing but decent, external engine sounds is ANOTHER story... we need more GRUNT, ROAR, LOUD pops and down/upshifting... not a very wrong digitilized sample of the real thing.

 

[zedextreme8177]

Absolutely, I don't like how the sounds are exaggerated in Forza, but that F1 was used as an example to show how important the samples are. I've seen a photo of PD recording the engine sound of the DB9. They seemed to place the mics in a position away from the intake, thus losing any V12-ness it should have

Griffith500, with your experience in sounds, you should get a job at PD 👍

 

[fifomaniak]

Doesn't the new V12 Vantage have the samples from 599? Or at least they're very similiar...

 

[Dude27]

I'm sure a LOT OF CARS in GT5 share the same sample. I would bet a fortune on that. therefore, upgrading GENERIC engine to their correct REAL counterpart woudln't be such a problematic challenge.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Absolutely, I don't like how the sounds are exaggerated in Forza, but that F1 was used as an example to show how important the samples are. I've seen a photo of PD recording the engine sound of the DB9. They seemed to place the mics in a position away from the intake, thus losing any V12-ness it should have

I think the problem with most game developers, PD included, is they usually record sounds with the car sitting in one position and revving the engine. You're not going to get proper intake noises that way, the car has to be under load. This would require a dyno or driving the cars on an actual roadway. But then you have to find ways to avoid or remove road noise.

 

[Griffith500]

I'm sure a LOT OF CARS in GT5 share the same sample. I would bet a fortune on that. therefore, upgrading GENERIC engine to their correct REAL counterpart woudln't be such a problematic challenge.

You're absolutely right. This is why people are dumbfounded by the lack of accuracy in so many cases.

@ zedextreme8177: Yeah, I don't know why they neglected intake. That McF1 clip is excellent, it's practically all intake!

There are really only two kinds of V12 firing order used in cars. For example, BMW uses one kind, which is like two straight sixes firing 60 degrees apart (that is, the angle between banks, so both cylinders on each crank throw fire sequentially, following the 1,5,3,6,2,4 order from a straight six) whilst Ferrari, Jaguar etc. use a more distributed arrangement. Ferrari tried the other type once on their 456M, before reverting back; I think it's "smoother" feeling, because it makes better use of the 12 cylinders, distributing the torque pulses "within" the engine block, whereas the other is no better than a straight 6. Supposedly, the "paired-sixes" order is more crankshaft-friendly, as the Germans discovered with their aero engines during the Second World War (something to do with "Rechlin").

Anyway, see if you can spot the similarities and differences based on this (incomplete) list:

Paired-sixes: (I call it the "modified Rechlin order".)
BMW (inc. McLaren F1)
Lamborghini Aventador
Ferrari 456M

Smooth:
All Lamborghini "Bizzarrini"-derived V12s*
All Ferrari V12 road cars, except 456M (flat 12s are slightly different again)
Jaguar
Mercedes (inc. Zonda)
Toyota
Lincoln

* The Countach had certain pairs of cylinders swapped in the order, due to the crankshaft being mirrored. Practically, it sounds the same, though; a curious property of pulse-trains.

Another strange exception is that of Honda's second batch of '60s GP engines, which has the original "Rechlin" sequence, with the equivalent six-cylinder order of, for example, 1,3,5,6,4,2. (This is according to the exhaust routing: groups of three cylinders in each bank are usually joined to the same collector in such a way that they are even firing [240° apart]; normally this is the end groups of three, but not so in the Hondas.)
It sounds very lumpy on the intake side, due to the sequential "5" twice, then "6" twice. Their earlier and later V12s were "normal", i.e. one of the two types listed above.

Firing orders mostly taken from here.
(Heh, look what you made me do... )

All that means is that generic sounds should work even for something as potentially varied as a V12. You just need two intake types, and two exhaust types (2x 6-into-2, like a 599 GTB; and 2x 6-into-1, like a 599 GTO). Realistically, you could get away with the one intake type.

A similar discussion of V8s, that goes into more depth (and makes you appreciate the potential for variation in V12s), here.

 

[yzfmike]

I think the problem with most game developers, PD included, is they usually record sounds with the car sitting in one position and revving the engine. You're not going to get proper intake noises that way, the car has to be under load. This would require a dyno or driving the cars on an actual roadway. But then you have to find ways to avoid or remove road noise.

👍👍👍

 

[Pierced Lead]

Is it me or does this actually sound like a V12?

 

[RedBaron]

Aventador in the game has distinctive V10 sound. In lower revs you can hear the exact sample used in gallardo. Probably the sound in the game most similar to real Aventador is that sound used for Pagani Zonda R while real Pagani Zonda R sounds completely different )

I am still so surprised about PD's sound engineering ignorance, this is certainly the weakest part of game system.

 

[ToyoBart]

in between all the comparing and searching for bad car sounds ( not too hard really )...

want to hear a nice V8 sound?

TVR Griffith 500 with the semi-race exhaust fitted... i can listen to that car all day...

( in fact , the more i drive that car , the more i'm having trouble listening to my wife )

Grtz !

 

[Loonycrazyone]

SHOCKING is the only way to describe the car sounds in this game. Truly awful.

 

[Griffith500]

Aventador in the game has distinctive V10 sound. In lower revs you can hear the exact sample used in gallardo. Probably the sound in the game most similar to real Aventador is that sound used for Pagani Zonda R while real Pagani Zonda R sounds completely different )

I am still so surprised about PD's sound engineering ignorance, this is certainly the weakest part of game system.

[vid 1]
[vid 2]

On the emboldened part, I agree that there is an engineering issue (on the recording side) in the sense that the vast majority of cars' samples are taken from neutral revving, so there tends to be instabilities, lack of full-bore response from the exhaust, and, in many cars, a lot of excess fuel in the exhaust, giving that spluttery sound. Oh, and they seem to have forgotten that engines make a sound when they ingest air as well as when they expel it.

As for the software / reproduction side, the engineering is actually excellent. Unfortunately, it's the artists' immediate fault that the samples used are not representative of the car. The actual blame may lie with whoever it is that is overseeing their work, so the designer, if they have one aside from Kaz. In that sense, the oversights in the above paragraph could also be due to direction rather than actual "engineering" issues.


You're spot on about the V10 samples, it's bizarre. Although the Murciélagos are the same (and the Citroën by GT, but that's supposed to be a V8).

Honestly, it seems totally inexplicable; why re-use the Gallardo's samples at all? Had they not recorded the Aventador, or the Murciélago? What about the Enzo: why was its sound changed from a convincing V12 pre-launch to what we have now? Are they planning to revamp the entire system somehow, so that, in a way, making fresh samples in the current system is akin to trying to touch up the Standards, instead of making them Premium outright (which of course will take longer)?

I really cannot fathom the level of ignorance required (i.e. "not knowing") to consistently make these errors, so I keep resorting to other explanations...

 

[shirakawaa]

Could it be that the sound designer has been working with Yamauchi since GT1 and now they're both unable for personal reasons to see the flaws in this aspect of the game? I haven't checked yet, but I suspect it's the case.

 

[CodeRedR51]

SHOCKING is the only way to describe most of the car sounds in this game. Truly awful.

Fixed.

 

[Crumpet]

The best sound class in this game comes from the classic American cars. They all have a brilliant rumble when tuned, especially when shifting into the higher gears too early.

 

[GTPM118]

They model from photos, toys, quite artistic, yet awesome for the details and perfectionism on the design. I think that they do not have the same details at recording, I mean, recording as fast as they can, with a different technique . But if you compare the Premium sound to new new DLC cars or the GT-86, IMO the new ones have better sound quality.

Maybe they are improving it without making it as exaggerated as other games out there?

 

[Dude27]

Seriously, Have you ever gone on a track for REAL, GTPM118? these beasts ARE LOUD! "Exaggerated" is the norm for real racing, hear that and despair on a GT5 replay:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZzxBMj7WZ8

 

[GTPM118]

Seriously, Have you ever gone on a track for REAL, GTPM118? these beasts ARE LOUD! "Exaggerated" is the norm for real racing, hear that and despair on a GT5 replay:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZzxBMj7WZ8

Oh i missed that point, they could be REALLY loud, by exaggerated I mean, but not to loud to be distortioned.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odxFzAMKnqk

Loud but not noise. That's what I wanted to point out, my mistake

 

[CodeRedR51]

They model from photos, toys, quite artistic, yet awesome for the details and perfectionism on the design. I think that they do not have the same details at recording, I mean, recording as fast as they can, with a different technique . But if you compare the Premium sound to new new DLC cars or the GT-86, IMO the new ones have better sound quality.

Maybe they are improving it without making it as exaggerated as other games out there?

I totally agree with the bold part. The new DLC cars do sound like they were recorded using a better method. The 86 does have a nice intake growl to it, the "whoosh" you get from a factory turbo car is great. ('12 GT-R, Golf R)

Seriously, Have you ever gone on a track for REAL, GTPM118? these beasts ARE LOUD! "Exaggerated" is the norm for real racing, hear that and despair on a GT5 replay:

I think he's talking about cars with the factory exhaust. Games that make "stock" cars super loud are doing just that, exaggerating them a bit.

 

[Vaxxtx]

Maybe they are improving it without making it as exaggerated as other games out there?

Sorry but no matter what audio device you use, how you have your sound dialed in, and how hard you think they have improved the sound, the sad ungly fact is GT5 sounds pretty bad.

8 year old games sound better. Its hard to nail realistic in a video game in the sound department, but PD didnt even try in most cases. One of the biggest turn off for me in GT5 was listening to the horrid sound in a long race. It literally gives me a headache from the monotone sound.

I just hoping GT6 will fix this. I would rather have over the top sounds, than what is in GT5.

I think he's talking about cars with the factory exhaust. Games that make "stock" cars super loud are doing just that, exaggerating them a bit.

True to a small degree. Most cars in other games get upgraded out of stock form pretty fast. So for me mostly it is a moot point.

 

[Griffith500]

Could it be that the sound designer has been working with Yamauchi since GT1 and now they're both unable for personal reasons to see the flaws in this aspect of the game? I haven't checked yet, but I suspect it's the case.

It's certainly possible. I think there are two "sound designers" listed in the credits of GT5, but nobody else. Presumably, then, they're really (acting as) the artists (as well) - perhaps they're horribly overworked.
Irrespective of all of that, you'd think someone at PD would be able to recognise there's an obvious issue - unless, again, they're already working on it, but that doesn't quite explain the Aventador.

 

[GTPM118]

It's certainly possible. I think there are two "sound designers" listed in the credits of GT5, but nobody else. Presumably, then, they're really (acting as) the artists (as well) - perhaps they're horribly overworked.
Irrespective of all of that, you'd think someone at PD would be able to recognise there's an obvious issue - unless, again, they're already working on it, but that doesn't quite explain the Aventador.

it could explain that IF they rushed design it... without traveling to take the sound from that beast.👍

 

[CodeRedR51]

True to a small degree. Most cars in other games get upgraded out of stock form pretty fast. So for me mostly it is a moot point.

Still doesn't change the fact that the stock exhaust sounds are blown out of proportion. NFS Shift comes to mind here.

 

[Dude27]

Still GT5 sound like "digital" game era... We need something like GT3 with good samples... tweaking the actual ingame sounds won't cut it... if the basics are wrong. GT need more RAW primitive engine sounds. The ideal would be dynamically distorted by air displacement and road surface with fade in and out from far away (when you hear the car long after it passed the fixed camera: a long fading out echo... )

 

[CodeRedR51]

I think the first problem that needs to be address before anything else is that PD needs to record the sounds while the car is under load. On a dyno specifically. They would just have to figure out how to get around the dyno noises, as they can be quite loud.

 

[GTPM118]

Still GT5 sound like "digital" game era... We need something like GT3 with good samples... tweaking the actual ingame sounds won't cut it... if the basics are wrong. GT need more RAW primitive engine sounds. The ideal would be dynamically distorted by air displacement and road surface with fade in and out from far away (when you hear the car long after it passed the fixed camera: a long fading out echo... )

Its a nice idea but... could you explain it further? I mean, how do you think this idea could be archieved? An idea of how of record properly?

 

[zedextreme8177]

The Zonda R sounds like a very synthesized recording of a V10, and doesn't fit the Aventador at all IMO.

I've actually driven the Lister Storm recently, it isn't that bad since they have a good V12 note to it, though it has terrible quality

As for the exaggeration bit, all I can think of are the diesel LMP cars. They should be much quieter than they currently are!

 

[CodeRedR51]

Its a nice idea but... could you explain it further? I mean, how do you think this idea could be archieved? An idea of how of record properly?

Post above yours?