GT5 Sound Thread
- Thread starter Marry_Me_GT
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- 15,532
- Cairo, Egypt
- GTP_SEMS
Spaking of the R8 sound in this video (which you all remmember 
_it sounds better.
_it sounds better.
- 1,175
Interesting sems, the R8 in that video sounds the same as the one in the 2009 Le Sarthe video. However, Griffith500 has informed us that our ears are fickle and mysteriously play tricks on us, so bear in mind that it's probably the same sound as the Prologue R8.
- 15,532
- Cairo, Egypt
- GTP_SEMS
Who knows real_tron anyway notice how only the R8 and the IS-F are the only cars from prolouge to appear in the demos.
- 8,725
Spaking of the R8 sound in this video (which you all remmember
Sadly that's dubbed - but, it demonstrates that PD do have decent(ish) quality samples of the cars doing what they do. Has anybody else noticed the little chirps those two V8s give off when the throttle is lifted, and the prominent intake "rush" (i.e. the sound of the air flow, as opposed to the pulses caused by the intake valves opening and closing, exposing the low pressure cylinder.) - I'm sure both of these can be heard in Prologue, in certain cars. The 512 BB is one car with a very loud set of carb's on it, at least in the game...
Interesting sems, the R8 in that video sounds the same as the one in the 2009 Le Sarthe video. However, Griffith500 has informed us that our ears are fickle and mysteriously play tricks on us, so bear in mind that it's probably the same sound as the Prologue R8.
Since my sarcasm filter doesn't seem to be working (usually means we're not from the same country
), I'll point those of you with the interest to the following information / demonstrations:Typical pyscho-acoustics demonstrations - pay particular attention to the effects of stereo imaging (caused no end of headaches for me and my synth project!) This is heavily biased towards music, in which pitches are an important focus. Engine sounds do not really need resolving to absolute pitches - indeed, they are usually described as being stochastic ("random"), or lacking definite pitch, like white noise. The effects themselves are still relevant.
When I said we can recognise different sounds coming from the same object, consider the sounds a tin can makes when you kick it down the road - each impact is different in terms of attack, power, duration, location (on the can) of impact, material the can is impacting etc. Each impact, played separately would sound very different, yet the "colour" of each sound gives the impression of a similar source.
Another interesting point is that we can differentiate sounds that are very similar - e.g. a single raindrop landing on a leaf or a twig snapping; both are short bursts of "noise", yet the brain can almost instantly recognise one over the other (and the gravity associated with it - a snapping twig could mean danger; rain on a leaf, not so much!)
Notice that this sort of recognition applies to everything - that's why you can distinguish a Supra from a Skyline, both twin turbo straight sixes, with very similar - but distinct - sounds.
But don't forget the effects of discrimination - we have a habit of focusing on what we think is relevant to us; i.e. hearing what we want to hear. We still hear the difference (we might not notice, though) but often we couldn't say what the difference is.
Wikipedia's contribution is severely lacking. A good book would help those who are really interested.
I wrote this post with this in my lap.
EDIT: actually, it's the pre-published version
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- 239
- zepheadGT3
The sound in GT5 is one of the things im most worried about. the GT series has never been known for its dramatic engine noises, and i hoping that GT5 will be different. In GT4, it seemed like all the cars were based off of 4 or 5 distinct engine sounds and then slightly modified for each car... The results were, as you all know, quite underwhelming. To me, a huge part of racing is hearing the roar of highly modified engines. Also, installing an aftermarket exhaust had little to no effect on the sound of the car. Now, you can say that all games sound "wrong", but i dont think so. Just look at GT4's competitor Forza Motorsport 2. All the engine notes were unique to the car and were affected by performance modifications... and the cars sound GOOD! A porsche flat 6 has that unique bark, a VTEC sounds like it should, a audi V8 has that mean roar, and that they nailed the american muscle sound...
All im saying is that for all the time that GT5 has been in development, im going to be very disappointed if the cars dont sound as good as they look... plus i know im not the only one thats going to be angry if they screw up the sound of some historic ferraris or other sweet new cars
All im saying is that for all the time that GT5 has been in development, im going to be very disappointed if the cars dont sound as good as they look... plus i know im not the only one thats going to be angry if they screw up the sound of some historic ferraris or other sweet new cars
- 28,353
- Brooklyn, NY
- KR_Viper
- I Renown I
- 263
- MANU56BZH
THIS IS THE SOUND !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YPabCzxMXM
To 1min30 at 1min34....
If GT5 have that.
But unfortunalty it's impossible because i think real sound feel, follow and change from infinity way of the driver, the road and the car "answer" or "reply" (réponses).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YPabCzxMXM
To 1min30 at 1min34....
If GT5 have that.
But unfortunalty it's impossible because i think real sound feel, follow and change from infinity way of the driver, the road and the car "answer" or "reply" (réponses).
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- 8,725
Maybe I ought to rephrase my apparently outrageous statement.
The sound in every racing game disappoints me. There's always something in it that breaks the aural "illusion". In Forza, it's the lack of respect for where the sounds are coming from, and an "it'll do" attitude to the fineness of the audio engine (you can hear the rpm stepping, Four Foot Snake.)
The ISI sims are also guilty of using a low-fi engine and 10-year old game audio techniques.
Owing to the fact that it has always existed on atypical hardware for the time (a fact that Sony is constantly berated for - those poor programmers have it tough, eh? Face it, Intel came up with the foundations for x86 before 1978, 32-bit was cemented by 1986 and it's barely changed since) Gran Turismo has always had to find ways around the apparent limitations and nuances of the current system, meaning that each iteration (on new hardware) has had to have a re-engineered platform (engine) to run on.
This means, functionally, PD are ahead of the game considerably, because they've tackled a familiar problem afresh every other game - if they used "industry standard" samples (Forza's, for example), nobody would complain (except me, perhaps), and GT would sound vastly superior using the same samples - although I, having read most of this thread, doubt some people would even notice the difference.
Now, you can throw "the end result" in my face here, but I shan't be convinced: No racing game impresses me on the sound front. For different reasons
I hate lazy "engineering" - just using "off-the-shelf" techniques because "it works" - that's not the attitude that drives F1 teams to victory, for example. Now, I have been disappointed by GT's audio since GT2 (that was an impressive step-up on the same hardware!) and a good deal of the cars do sound "wrong", especially when modified (not that this really matters - a car can sound almost as you wish when you modify it; think of the real-world discussion of after-market exhaust mods, for instance.)
But, I've seen examples where the beloved rFactor mods fall short of my expectation based on peoples' reactions to them, usually because of the source of the samples (first noticed this in GPL, years ago), or because the audio engine implementation is so dated.
Now, I'm not trying to say that cars not sounding like the real thing is less important than lazy game design (although, sometimes it really is); I just wish people could try a little perspective, and realise that their expectations of what a car should sound like are probably wrong - mine were, until I tried to synthesise such a sound from scratch. I'm probably still mistaken on much of the nuance which, paradoxically, is the most important part of audio - hence why I posted all that pyscho-gubbins before.
EDIT:
I remember stumbling across that a while ago. Lafitte looks like a proper badass!
That sort of "overrun" sound is difficult to reproduce without it sounding canned, and it's actually unique to every car (not just model, each individual car! That's a job for procedural audio!)
Anyway. Why does it sound like a cross-plane V8? I love the little idiosyncrasies like that, that's what makes game audio a task worth undertaking.
The sound in every racing game disappoints me. There's always something in it that breaks the aural "illusion". In Forza, it's the lack of respect for where the sounds are coming from, and an "it'll do" attitude to the fineness of the audio engine (you can hear the rpm stepping, Four Foot Snake.)
The ISI sims are also guilty of using a low-fi engine and 10-year old game audio techniques.
Owing to the fact that it has always existed on atypical hardware for the time (a fact that Sony is constantly berated for - those poor programmers have it tough, eh? Face it, Intel came up with the foundations for x86 before 1978, 32-bit was cemented by 1986 and it's barely changed since) Gran Turismo has always had to find ways around the apparent limitations and nuances of the current system, meaning that each iteration (on new hardware) has had to have a re-engineered platform (engine) to run on.
This means, functionally, PD are ahead of the game considerably, because they've tackled a familiar problem afresh every other game - if they used "industry standard" samples (Forza's, for example), nobody would complain (except me, perhaps), and GT would sound vastly superior using the same samples - although I, having read most of this thread, doubt some people would even notice the difference.
Now, you can throw "the end result" in my face here, but I shan't be convinced: No racing game impresses me on the sound front. For different reasons
I hate lazy "engineering" - just using "off-the-shelf" techniques because "it works" - that's not the attitude that drives F1 teams to victory, for example. Now, I have been disappointed by GT's audio since GT2 (that was an impressive step-up on the same hardware!) and a good deal of the cars do sound "wrong", especially when modified (not that this really matters - a car can sound almost as you wish when you modify it; think of the real-world discussion of after-market exhaust mods, for instance.)
But, I've seen examples where the beloved rFactor mods fall short of my expectation based on peoples' reactions to them, usually because of the source of the samples (first noticed this in GPL, years ago), or because the audio engine implementation is so dated.
Now, I'm not trying to say that cars not sounding like the real thing is less important than lazy game design (although, sometimes it really is); I just wish people could try a little perspective, and realise that their expectations of what a car should sound like are probably wrong - mine were, until I tried to synthesise such a sound from scratch. I'm probably still mistaken on much of the nuance which, paradoxically, is the most important part of audio - hence why I posted all that pyscho-gubbins before.
EDIT:
THIS IS THE SOUND !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YPabCzxMXM
To 1min30 at 1min34....
If GT5 have that.
But unfortunalty it's impossible because i think real sound feel, follow and change from infinity way of the driver, the road and the car "answer" or "reply" (réponses).
I remember stumbling across that a while ago. Lafitte looks like a proper badass!
That sort of "overrun" sound is difficult to reproduce without it sounding canned, and it's actually unique to every car (not just model, each individual car! That's a job for procedural audio!
)Anyway. Why does it sound like a cross-plane V8? I love the little idiosyncrasies like that, that's what makes game audio a task worth undertaking.
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- 239
- zepheadGT3
Thanks for that Griffith, its always great to have a different perspective on issues like this... and would you mind telling me what an ISI sim is? im not very experienced when it comes to this technical audio stuff...
- 8,725
Hehe, of course, the real point is to go out and really listen to the cars on track, on the road, in the carpark. YouTube is great, but you need to be there to analyse the overall effect properly
Of course, like a fantastic meal (or anything comparable...), sometimes its better to just enjoy the experience, rather than waste time trying to "figure it out"
Anyway, I should know better than to post "random" acronyms: ISI is Image Space Incorporated, creators of rFactor, whose engines are used in the GTR games, too (much to my disdain, but plenty of people swear it's the business
).I feel I should add that I'm no "authority" on sound in any way. I just had a bit of an interest (and a passion for loud noises, and cars) and ended up learning and experimenting (and learning more) as a result. I'm not trying to "blind with science", either. 👍
- 8,725
But even you must realize - at this point, there's only so much you can do to get a computer to properly simulate the sound of an engine. I don't see us getting perfect car sounds for a very very long time. One of my favorite things about my 306ci Tbird is, for example, when I see a red light up ahead, I'll just coast in 3rd gear and listen to the cackle out of the exhaust. It sounds so cool, but yet I honestly don't expect any game to have that yet (though if/when they do, omg I'll be in heaven!). So I still stand by the videos I posted earlier as THE best racing game sounds as of today. Are they perfect? No, far from it. Are they really good and add a lot to the driving experience in the game? Heck yes.
Oh, and...for more soundbytes:
The part from 0:35-0:50 is my fav
. I'd take that car over most supercars...yeah I know most won't agree with me but oh well. 
The sound of that supercharger as it comes towards the camera, then the heavenly exhaust roar as it passes the camera and drives away is just...amazing. And that cackling I mentioned earlier - you can hear it in this video when he lets off after the first flyby pass (around 0:47 or so).
- 8,725
But even you must realize - at this point, there's only so much you can do to get a computer to properly simulate the sound of an engine. I don't see us getting perfect car sounds for a very very long time. One of my favorite things about my 306ci Tbird is, for example, when I see a red light up ahead, I'll just coast in 3rd gear and listen to the cackle out of the exhaust. It sounds so cool, but yet I honestly don't expect any game to have that yet (though if/when they do, omg I'll be in heaven!). So I still stand by the videos I posted earlier as THE best racing game sounds as of today. Are they perfect? No, far from it. Are they really good and add a lot to the driving experience in the game? Heck yes.
Oh, and...for more soundbytes:
The part from 0:35-0:50 is my fav
The sound of that supercharger as it comes towards the camera, then the heavenly exhaust roar as it passes the camera and drives away is just...amazing. And that cackling I mentioned earlier - you can hear it in this video when he lets off after the first flyby pass (around 0:47 or so).
In much the same way as there's only so much you can do to get a computer to properly simulate the way a car looks, or the way light bounces off the surrounding bushes, illuminating the car in a faint green - but this is progressing in leaps and bounds every year. Sound is generally left behind, because they have a system that works, and nobody really complains!
The idle cackle you're talking about is not that difficult to re-produce, and is simpler than overrun. I assume you mean the typical "lope" of jetted carbs / "upgraded" cams through a low-restriction exhaust? That can be faked really easily (random noise offsetting the RPM), and with a bit more effort, a proper attempt at approximating the effects of the cams and fueling capabilities of the carbs or injectors can be made (really important for the "physics" anyway, since an engine is not just its torque curve, the dynamics are always overlooked - "flat spots", hesitation for instance).
I would say that the majority of racing games are on a par with each other, but "excelling" (not) in different areas of the sound.
As for that BRM sound clip, I love that there's a picture of a Lotus 43, which of course used the H16, not the V16 from 30+ years prior.
That's another example, actually. I managed to reproduce the V16 sound (albeit a generic one, with almost-diesel-like timbre, due to my pulse sounds) a while ago, but the H16 always evaded me. This was because I'd read it was two BRM V8s "flattened" and joined at their crank by an idler gear. BRM's were flat-plane V8s. I couldn't find a firing sequence that worked with even intervals (180 degree crank intervals, offset by 45 degrees because 720 / 16 = 45.) Then I read that the crank had a habit of vibrating itself to pieces at high RPM - not really consistent with flat plane, where they were happily achieving over 12000 RPM. At the same time I saw it described as two flat eights (not two flattened V8s). Flat eights use a cross-plane crank (or "Boxer" type cranks), these have heavy counter-balances which like to find their way through the crankcase at high RPM...
Anyway, the cross-plane configuration gave an even firing sequence and a sound that was astonishingly similar (in terms of pulse spacing, NOT timbre - see above) to the single, short clip of the true H16 I could find (and the many clips that had been used in GPL over the years.)
The sound I produced had four channels - one per exhaust exit, and this allows for the correct phasing of the different exits over each other as the car's location and orientation relative to the listener changes, adding to the subtlety (though this was done manually in my case).
This was all achieved in MATLAB, though, so everything is "manual". I'd like to get it working in FMod so I can start playing with EAX, DSP (which is the basis of my synthesis in MATLAB) and the like
Don't settle for samples, do it properly!
- 1,419
Not the best quality capture, its clipping like crazy and its compressed to bejesus and back.
Driving sounds are as usual, isolated on the cockpit view, raspy exhausty on the chase, but as always best sounds are in Replays where cars are whizzing by.
I just dont want to play ANOTHER GT all in Mono, but GT5P did really impress me(wait for it) on this 5.1 Bose surround i played with Home Theatre and Large Theatre, Large really lets the sounds breathe, Home tries to tie it all in for "less than full range" systems.
I think the reason that everyone thinks PD's sounds are flat or dull is probably because they use Flat Response Full Range mics, which are "transparent" meaning they dont color the souind they just capture as plain and dry as possible with no bias.
Maybe other games use Tube mics that give it a warm touch, maybe itsjust post processing effects.
I remmber seeing this Polish site(i think) that had several type of engine sounds all done digitally, not recorded. and they sounded amazing, Boxer engines rumble Italian V6's cry and whiine.
Its really escaping me and google isnt helping if anyone knows it plz repost.
Driving sounds are as usual, isolated on the cockpit view, raspy exhausty on the chase, but as always best sounds are in Replays where cars are whizzing by.
I just dont want to play ANOTHER GT all in Mono, but GT5P did really impress me(wait for it) on this 5.1 Bose surround i played with Home Theatre and Large Theatre, Large really lets the sounds breathe, Home tries to tie it all in for "less than full range" systems.
I think the reason that everyone thinks PD's sounds are flat or dull is probably because they use Flat Response Full Range mics, which are "transparent" meaning they dont color the souind they just capture as plain and dry as possible with no bias.
Maybe other games use Tube mics that give it a warm touch, maybe itsjust post processing effects.
I remmber seeing this Polish site(i think) that had several type of engine sounds all done digitally, not recorded. and they sounded amazing, Boxer engines rumble Italian V6's cry and whiine.
Its really escaping me and google isnt helping if anyone knows it plz repost.
- 4,797
- Antarctica
Idk enough about how games use sound to be able to compare it to graphics in terms of advancement, but it would be really nice if it would improve more over the years. In a few select cases, companies are getting a bit better, but that's few and far between. I honestly don't think people care much about sound accuracy, just as long as it sounds proper for each car.
Yeah basically; though the examples of that Mustang and my Tbird are both fuel injected cars. Any engine that breathes really well seems to do it (keep in mind, my knowledge is mainly with American V8s, so I don't know how it applies to other engines). I'm having to run my old stock 302 right now in my Tbird and it doesn't do the cackle nearly as much as my 306 did with the upgraded intake, heads, and 1.7 ratio rockers (mmmm, pushrod V8s FTW 👍 ).
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