GTPlanet Continental Tire Sports Car Challenge - Post Season Runnin'

[NEPALII]

I have sent you a PM Jonerz. Hopefully you get some more ideas from more people, and we are willing to help you organize the series, because the regulations for the cars are SPOT ON, and you did a great job setting up the seires. Now, you just got to keep it organized.

 

[paulmac2k9]

No Paul, I said "Pit window now open for lead lap cars." That is still my fault, I didn't communicate correctly because at the time, you were on 8 while the leaders were on 9, of course, you were going to just click over to 9.

Chris

at the time i couldnt have been much more than 50seconds behind so that means to me im way on the lead lap basicaly you meant when its about to click onto 10-13 and 19-25...... from my experence this is deffo not the way to go as all it does it create huge confusion espicialy since you only told us 30 seconds before the timer ran out........ not complaining but seriously either way i would have won that race i had over 30seconds on mule by the end.....

 

[Jonerz]

at the time i couldnt have been much more than 50seconds behind so that means to me im way on the lead lap basicaly you meant when its about to click onto 10-13 and 19-25...... from my experence this is deffo not the way to go as all it does it create huge confusion espicialy since you only told us 30 seconds before the timer ran out........ not complaining but seriously either way i would have won that race i had over 30seconds on mule by the end.....

PMed you.

Chris

 

[Müle]

but seriously either way i would have won that race i had over 30seconds on mule by the end.....

You can't just assume that. If you had pit when you were supposed to, I would have had a better chance of getting into your draft. Not to mention how I was maintaining the gap until I decided to go off at the chicane before my 2nd pit stop.

I had the pace, I just lacked consistency when I was pushing towards the end.

 

[Sassafrass_3]

My 2 cents:

- You can only use rolling starts on a few tracks. Daytona is one of the only ones. Can't remember the others. Indy maybe? Standing start is fine but people need to give each other more room. You cannot win the race in the first turn but you can lose it.

- Heavy damage must stay on unless you want this to turn into a destruction derby. There is obviously a lot of inexperience in this group judging from the comments made. I've been doing this a long time but never two classes in one race.

- Monza should be removed from the series. It is so boring in low horsepower and impossible to police all the corner cutting.

- I'm not the fastest driver but I'm not the slowest. This VW need some help. Or I could make it real easy and switch to the Civic.

I'm not familiar with this series in real life but what "racing" series runs without being able to adjust gear ratio's? Seems really odd to me. I barely was getting into 5th gear at Daytona. Seriously, Daytona.

 

[Jonerz]

My 2 cents:

- You can only use rolling starts on a few tracks. Daytona is one of the only ones. Can't remember the others. Indy maybe? Standing start is fine but people need to give each other more room. You cannot win the race in the first turn but you can lose it.

- Heavy damage must stay on unless you want this to turn into a destruction derby. There is obviously a lot of inexperience in this group judging from the comments made. I've been doing this a long time but never two classes in one race.

- Monza should be removed from the series. It is so boring in low horsepower and impossible to police all the corner cutting.

- I'm not the fastest driver but I'm not the slowest. This VW need some help. Or I could make it real easy and switch to the Civic.

I'm not familiar with this series in real life but what "racing" series runs without being able to adjust gear ratio's? Seems really odd to me. I barely was getting into 5th gear at Daytona. Seriously, Daytona.

Taking in everybody's two cents, soon I will be pretty damn rich.

Yeah, the Continental Tire Sports Car Challenge is a showroom stock series. Monza would be good if we had big packs of each class drafting each other, likely won't happen as things spread themselves out for various reasons. It will be gone Monday.

Also, we have to work together on that VW. You're best lap was 2:10, and that was slower than where it was in testing (online) but I'll be glad to make some BoP changes to it to bring it up to class standard.

Chris

 

[NEPALII]

My 2 cents:

- You can only use rolling starts on a few tracks. Daytona is one of the only ones. Can't remember the others. Indy maybe? Standing start is fine but people need to give each other more room. You cannot win the race in the first turn but you can lose it.

- Heavy damage must stay on unless you want this to turn into a destruction derby. There is obviously a lot of inexperience in this group judging from the comments made. I've been doing this a long time but never two classes in one race.

- Monza should be removed from the series. It is so boring in low horsepower and impossible to police all the corner cutting.

- I'm not the fastest driver but I'm not the slowest. This VW need some help. Or I could make it real easy and switch to the Civic.

I'm not familiar with this series in real life but what "racing" series runs without being able to adjust gear ratio's? Seems really odd to me. I barely was getting into 5th gear at Daytona. Seriously, Daytona.

Yeah, I also dont understand why we cant change gear ratios! Im not familiar with the real life series but Im pretty sure they are allowed to change gear ratios. However, its not a problem because its the same for everyone so no advantages or disadvantages...
Edit: He just stated that you cant change gear ratios so yeah, hes got the regs all right!

 

[Jonerz]

Yeah, I also dont understand why we cant change gear ratios! Im not familiar with the real life series but Im pretty sure they are allowed to change gear ratios. However, its not a problem because its the same for everyone so no advantages or disadvantages...

Cars must use OEM gearboxes, and they have a fixed rear end gear. Grand-Am will only allow rear end gears (final drive ratios) or individual gear ratios to be changed (the Kia in the real championship IIRC) if the cars are unduly disadvantaged by their gearbox, or if the standard car comes equipped only with an automatic transmission.

Chris

EDIT: Didn't see your edit, Nep.

EDIT 2: I'm going to bed. But, my inbox and the thread are always open, lads.

 

[paulmac2k9]

i tested all the cars on the stated BHP and Weight and i found the VW 2:04s to be the fastest behind the mini 2:04s (2:03s on occasions) then the civic i got 2:05s and then the MX5 2:06s
Imo the Mx5 needs a tad more power and the Civic needs less weight maybe lighten the golf slightly too....

and tsukuba is very equal with as all the cars are within .6 in my test

(i may of had the clear advantage here but id rather win when its much more close allways a better way of winning when you know youve earned it not because your car is the best)

 

[NEPALII]

Wow didnt know that! At least I got to learn something today . I dont follow the series.

 

[Müle]

My 2 cents:

- You can only use rolling starts on a few tracks. Daytona is one of the only ones. Can't remember the others. Indy maybe? Standing start is fine but people need to give each other more room. You cannot win the race in the first turn but you can lose it.

100% disagree. Look no further than the WSGTC series.

- Heavy damage must stay on unless you want this to turn into a destruction derby. There is obviously a lot of inexperience in this group judging from the comments made. I've been doing this a long time but never two classes in one race.

100% disagree again. Look no further than my Integra series. It's the last thing from a "derby." I absolutely hate that argument

- Monza should be removed from the series. It is so boring in low horsepower and impossible to police all the corner cutting.

I agree with this.

- I'm not the fastest driver but I'm not the slowest. This VW need some help. Or I could make it real easy and switch to the Civic.

I tested the VW earlier and was getting the same times that I was getting with the Mini..

[qoute]I'm not familiar with this series in real life but what "racing" series runs without being able to adjust gear ratio's? Seems really odd to me. I barely was getting into 5th gear at Daytona. Seriously, Daytona.[/QUOTE]

That's your problem. You need to shift wayyyy earlier because of the car's powerband. I was shifting between 5/6000 RPM with the Mini, when though the Redline's at 7000.

 

[Sassafrass_3]

I'm referring to rolling starts in the race set-up options. I realize that some series do a rolling start by doing a slow lap around the track on the first lap and bunch up towards the start/finish. I've done it a million times in DTM. It never really works very good unless you have a room full of competent drivers.

I'm a fan of light damage. Heavy damage just makes everyone think about what they are doing. To know that there will be sever penalties for your aggressive actions. I realize this ends up hurting the unassuming driver that's getting punted as well. I believe your Integra series in the farthest thing from a destruction derby. I trust that your drivers are competent as well.

Yeah, I'm an idiot. I didn't realize I should shift that early. Like I said I only had one day of preparation and I spent all that time putting practice into all 4 cars. It wouldn't surprise if the VW didn't need any help. It wouldn't be the first time I wasn't getting everything out of a car.

 

[LancerEvo7]

i tested all the cars on the stated BHP and Weight and i found the VW 2:04s to be the fastest behind the mini 2:04s (2:03s on occasions) then the civic i got 2:05s and then the MX5 2:06s
Imo the Mx5 needs a tad more power and the Civic needs less weight maybe lighten the golf slightly too....

Civic needs more power. I was keeping up with you through the turns, then I'd get dominated down the straights.

I will admit, I did block you when you were lapping me, I wanted to test the draft and I knew it wouldn't hurt your position.

 

[RETROCRX]

Civic needs more power. I was keeping up with you through the turns, then I'd get dominated down the straights.

I will admit, I did block you when you were lapping me, I wanted to test the draft and I knew it wouldn't hurt your position.

Sorry but that's a problem. You can't possibly know that it wasn't going to hurt his position.

Plain and simple, there are no blue flags in these races so it's up to the driver getting lapped to allow the pass as easily as possible. No point in making it difficult.

Last night I was punted off by a GS backmarker at turn 1 who was unlapping himself as I was struggling with a damaged car. If you are a backmarker, you have to be respectful of the cars that are either ahead or lapping you.

That said.....basically it's all down to mutual racing respect......between EVERYONE.

I know I kit 2 people last night......and to be honest the closing speed caught me out both times.......and I was basically having a bit of a moment trying to gather the car up as to not hit them. But that's racing.

Weaving to block someone who is lapping you is NOT racing......

Anyway.....that's what I think (without giving Chris another $0.02)

Rob

 

[luckylefty2gunz]

Sorry but that's a problem. You can't possibly know that it wasn't going to hurt his position.

Plain and simple, there are no blue flags in these races so it's up to the driver getting lapped to allow the pass as easily as possible. No point in making it difficult.

Last night I was punted off by a GS backmarker at turn 1 who was unlapping himself as I was struggling with a damaged car. If you are a backmarker, you have to be respectful of the cars that are either ahead or lapping you.

That said.....basically it's all down to mutual racing respect......between EVERYONE.

I know I kit 2 people last night......and to be honest the closing speed caught me out both times.......and I was basically having a bit of a moment trying to gather the car up as to not hit them. But that's racing.

Weaving to block someone who is lapping you is NOT racing......

Anyway.....that's what I think (without giving Chris another $0.02)

Rob

this happended to me and nepal as a backmarker hit and damaged both of us as we were in a battle for 1st , if you are getting or have been lapped you are not to fight any car lapping you. that driver is lapping you for a reason he is faster then you stay in your line and don't attempt blocking or dive bomb the next corner resulting in you ruining a good car with your problem

 

[GTsach]

this happended to me and nepal as a backmarker hit and damaged both of us as we were in a battle for 1st , if you are getting or have been lapped you are not to fight any car lapping you. that driver is lapping you for a reason he is faster then you stay in your line and don't attempt blocking or dive bomb the next corner resulting in you ruining a good car with your problem

Your wrong on that one! I was a back marker or a last person because I got hit on the first turn and had damage and had to pit. Was dead last and came back to 4th place even I was a half lap down and I was getting my laps back and passing some of the front runners in a clean and a respectful way running my lines. So u can say just move out the way u might as well just stoping racing if that's the case.

 

[paulmac2k9]

Civic needs more power. I was keeping up with you through the turns, then I'd get dominated down the straights.

I will admit, I did block you when you were lapping me, I wanted to test the draft and I knew it wouldn't hurt your position.

Ive allways said the Civic is much like the 2011 BTCC Cruze great grip but lacks the power of the turbos seems its more like the cruze than i thought the next track suits the civic for sure but 5bhp more wouldnt go a miss for sure (i actualy love the civic but the power disadvantage turned me off picking it)

 

[Müle]

Here's how I see it:

If the leader is behind you, looking to put you 1 lap down, you should have every right to fight (cleanly) to keep your lap. But as soon as the leader passes you, then you're officially a backmarker and should let all the other leaders by without any problems.

 

[GTsach]

Here's how I see it:

If the leader is behind you, looking to put you 1 lap down, you should have every right to fight (cleanly) to keep your lap. But as soon as the leader passes you, then you're officially a backmarker and should let all the other leaders by without any problems.

Yes

 

[GTsach]

When will the standing and points be up?

 

[Jonerz]

Here's how I see it:

If the leader is behind you, looking to put you 1 lap down, you should have every right to fight (cleanly) to keep your lap. But as soon as the leader passes you, then you're officially a backmarker and should let all the other leaders by without any problems.

As a backmarker you are still part of the motor race. If you are racing another car and the leaders come up behind you, you don't have to stop your battle to let them by.

It is the job of the pursuing car in all circumstances to get by the slower cars.

However, if you are not in the midst of a battle and the leaders come by, the gentlemanly driver won't make it any harder for the leaders to get by. Hold your line, and if you are a GS car, for instance, maybe give the overtaking GS car a bit of a breather by getting off the throttle just a tenth early and not trying to be the last of the late brakers into the corner.

Obviously, you have no need to block the leader, but by the same token if you are on the pace of the leader you have every right to fight for the lead lap (not when you're trying to go from four laps to three laps behind). In that case, the leader has to do what is best for his race - if the leader doesn't have the car to push past he has to make the decision, as do all endurance racing drivers, what is best for his race. Don't push it? Perhaps letting second place gain a second or more, or push the issue and try to lap and pull away from the backmarker.

As the leader, and/or the overtaking car, you have the responsibility to make the pass cleanly.

Bottom line is, the best thing for all of us is to lap together as much as possible so we know our tendencies.

When will the standing and points be up?

Monday - hopefully - I still don't have the race order finalized.

Chris

 

[Müle]

As a backmarker you are still part of the motor race. If you are racing another car and the leaders come up behind you, you don't have to stop your battle to let them by.

I never disagreed with that. In fact, I was part of a race not too long ago, where I was in a 3-way battle for position. We were all a lap down, then the 4th place car comes and almost runs two of us off the road.

Needless to say, that guy isn't going to be racing again.

 

[Jonerz]

I was just clarifying the rule and logic for everyone.

Chris

 

[LancerEvo7]

Can someone upload the replay? I wasn't able to save it as I was disconnected as the race finished.

 

[Jonerz]

I can. Not on my PS3 at the moment, but I will.

Chris

 

[RETROCRX]

Obviously, you have no need to block the leader, but by the same token if you are on the pace of the leader you have every right to fight for the lead lap (not when you're trying to go from four laps to three laps behind).

This is actually a bit of a grey area. In real motorsports anyway, and Chris knows my credentials in that regard.

Anyway, in most series, if not all there are rules regarding a backmarker and the leader. In F1, if the leader catches you, regardless of how close to his pace you are, you have 3 showings of the blue flag before you are given a drive through penalty. In other series it is roughly the same, if the leader catches you and you are blue flagged, you HAVE to allow him past.

You cannot fight to keep your lap if you are impeding the leader, that is the truth of it. YOU ARE A LAP down, and the leader has CLEARLY caught you. So you MUST move . You under NO circumastances may you DEFEND your position from a driver who is lapping you.

HOWEVER, this is why it's a grey area. There are no rules against passing the leader and gaining your lap back. As long as it is done cleanly and you then scamper off into the distance without getting in the leaders way and/or influencing the outcome of the race by putting the leader off the road.

OUR biggest issue is that we do not have someone issuing blue flags, nor do we have someone acting as race control and steward during the race so we need to make these judgements ourselves as we race.

All we can really do is explicitly write out what is and isn't allowed with regards backmarkers and what would be considered a blue flag in the real world, and call out a penalty for circumvention of that rule. But I'm not sure how any of this can be applied real time as we are all racing.

Best I can suggest is we lodge an appeal system where the driver who has a complaint needs to submit an incident for review post race. Ie I got dumped buy so and so on lap six at corner 10. Then the series coordinator, Jonerz, can find that specific incident and make a judgement. Obviously all judgements will be either a predetermined time penalty applied post race or an outright DQ.

That is my suggestion for the day for what it's worth (I still refuse to give Chris $0.02)

Rob

 

[Jonerz]

This is actually a bit of a grey area. In real motorsports anyway, and Chris knows my credentials in that regard.

Anyway, in most series, if not all there are rules regarding a backmarker and the leader. In F1, if the leader catches you, regardless of how close to his pace you are, you have 3 showings of the blue flag before you are given a drive through penalty. In other series it is roughly the same, if the leader catches you and you are blue flagged, you HAVE to allow him past.

You cannot fight to keep your lap if you are impeding the leader, that is the truth of it. YOU ARE A LAP down, and the leader has CLEARLY caught you. So you MUST move . You under NO circumastances may you DEFEND your position from a driver who is lapping you.

HOWEVER, this is why it's a grey area. There are no rules against passing the leader and gaining your lap back. As long as it is done cleanly and you then scamper off into the distance without getting in the leaders way and/or influencing the outcome of the race by putting the leader off the road.

OUR biggest issue is that we do not have someone issuing blue flags, nor do we have someone acting as race control and steward during the race so we need to make these judgements ourselves as we race.

All we can really do is explicitly write out what is and isn't allowed with regards backmarkers and what would be considered a blue flag in the real world, and call out a penalty for circumvention of that rule. But I'm not sure how any of this can be applied real time as we are all racing.

Best I can suggest is we lodge an appeal system where the driver who has a complaint needs to submit an incident for review post race. Ie I got dumped buy so and so on lap six at corner 10. Then the series coordinator, Jonerz, can find that specific incident and make a judgement. Obviously all judgements will be either a predetermined time penalty applied post race or an outright DQ.

That is my suggestion for the day for what it's worth (I still refuse to give Chris $0.02)

Rob

Come on man! It's just two cents!!!

I think the way it was in CART, and generally in "American" racing, the blue flag is shown if you are being run down by a faster car. However, if you are caught by the leader because of other circumstances, a pit stop or what have you, you are generally free to fight to remain on the first lap (not sure what the "blocking" rule is, like a one-move thing). It is a gray area, and if you make it hard on the leader, who might have second place up his trumpets, or closing on him, he will tend to make your life difficult in response. (Whether he chrome-horns you, or returns the impediment later.)

Chris

 

[RETROCRX]

Come on man! It's just two cents!!!

I think the way it was in CART, and generally in "American" racing, the blue flag is shown if you are being run down by a faster car. However, if you are caught by the leader because of other circumstances, a pit stop or what have you, you are generally free to fight to remain on the first lap (not sure what the "blocking" rule is, like a one-move thing). It is a gray area, and if you make it hard on the leader, who might have second place up his trumpets, or closing on him, he will tend to make your life difficult in response. (Whether he chrome-horns you, or returns the impediment later.)

Chris

I think you'll find that in CART the rule was different between road courses and Ovals. Where the RC adopted a more European interpretation of the rule.

I think what we really need to just prevent people from defending from the leader. Running around in front of the leader is OK as long as you are on the same pace. But as soon as you start impeding him you have to move. Getting into a drafting duel with the leader where you end up passing and repassing lap after lap, as would be possible at Daytona, IS impeding the leader, you will both be slower for the duel.

It's a judgement call....and sure as excremement the will always be a disagreement between the leader and backmarker in this situation.

That's why I think the appeal system might work.....because a non partisan (YOU Jonerz) will be making the calls.

Rob

 

[Jonerz]

I'm thinking I'll withdraw my ST entry and might just officiate each race. I'll see if I can't get a non-PS3 branded USB keyboard to work so I can communicate quicker without having to use the dreaded mics.

And perhaps, for our case, we shouldn't allow the back marker to fight for the lead lap, as there is less room for mistakes to happen and one or the other party to suffer.

Chris

 

[NEPALII]

Why are you not racing? Just race man! Come on the more the better! Oh and yes I recommend buying a keyboard. I have the wireless keypad for the DS3, but its better if you get a USB keyboard as the keypad takes a while to get used to due to its small keys. You should have a Incident Report Form where any driver can just fill it out and that would be easy to check incidents. 👍