GTSport FiA Online //Racing Incident\\ Who is at Fault?

  • Thread starter K3Tuning
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rono_thomas
Theres nothing dirty about being forced inside to overtake thats normal racing chess, racing room has to be left (space for a car).

Understeering as he is means he wouldn’t if he needed to be able change the trajectory in any way to avoid anything, he’s a passenger till he regains grip, had cars 2 and 3 decided to hold their lines on the outside he would of smashed into them resulting in a dirty move.
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Thats certainly true, had he slide wide into somebody as a result of his move it would of been dirty. If this was a mid pack move to move up position but other lead cars entered the corner ahead of the blue car and the blue car slid into them hes at fault for going into a corner in such a way he couldnt avoid contact, but I would think a move to the front is not the same as its physically impossible for a car to appear ahead of him so while yes he slid over a lane he dint slide into an occupied lane or even into the furthest lane let alone hit the wall.



I fully see your point BTW
 
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K3Tuning
Thats certainly true, had he slide wide into somebody as a result of his move it would of been dirty. If this was a mid pack move to move up position but other lead cars entered the corner ahead of the blue car and the blue car slid into them hes at fault for going into a corner in such a way he couldnt avoid contact, but I would think a move to the front is not the same as its physically impossible for a car to appear ahead of him so while yes he slid over a lane he dint slide into the furthers lane let alone hit the wall



I fully see your point BTW
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Any pass has to be completed cleanly to not be classed as dirty. So ...

Thing is a car doesn’t have to appear in front of him for him to be able to make contact. Its totally possible to hang it out around the outside in the blue moon corners and simple physics means that objects moving around the circumference of a cirlce furthest from the circles centre are moving quicker, this means the cars on the outside have the choice to brake later and carry more speed he has no way of knowing they weren’t going to do that and it’s his in his best interest to cover the inside line to prevent a sucessful cut back from the other drivers, and fails at both objectives because he loses control, because he was greedy with how late he could brake - definitely not accounting for the extra speed provided by the slipstream.
 
On a side note ...

K3Tuning
... The 2nd lead car actually forces him to ...
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You repeatedly state the blue car is forced to the inside line. I for the world can't see how the blue car is forced to anything. He's clearly behind in 3rd for most of the straight when the two cars ahead go side by side. It's been the driver's decision to dive down, he as well could have shown some patience preparing himself for the corner exit and probably benefit from their two wide manoevre failing.
 
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ROCKET JOE
On a side note ...

You repeatedly state the blue car is forced to the inside line. I for the world can't see how the blue car is forced to anything. He's way behind in 3rd when the the two cars ahead go side by side. It's been the driver's decision to dive down, he as well could have shown some patience preparing himself for the corner exit and probably benefit from their two wide manoevre failing.
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It looked like it when I was watching from 4th place POV, from this POV where we can see all 3 lead cars middle car looks like hes drifting inside making a bigger gap between him and the outer car...

The questions ARE NOT all specifically about this incident but questioning the pushing to the inside of a car attempting a pass comes up. Im using this incident as an example to explore but it brings up much broader questions.

Hard to see but while its 3 wide from 4th POV, could fit another car outside of the blue car. From Original lead car POV can see blue car get on brakes later while more than a car and a half ahead of the outside car at this point


HOWEVER

after re watching from blue car POV it looks like he dived in to go hard,

rono_thomas
Any pass has to be completed cleanly to not be classed as dirty. So ...

Thing is a car doesn’t have to appear in front of him for him to be able to make contact. Its totally possible to hang it out around the outside in the blue moon corners and simple physics means that objects moving around the circumference of a cirlce furthest from the circles centre are moving quicker, this means the cars on the outside have the choice to brake later and carry more speed he has no way of knowing they weren’t going to do that and it’s his in his best interest to cover the inside line to prevent a sucessful cut back from the other drivers, and fails at both objectives because he loses control, because he was greedy with how late he could brake - definitely not accounting for the extra speed provided by the slipstream.
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The example has me shook, those physics have me stumped :/ as far as I interpret things dont exactly work that way..


3 cars go into a corner side by side at the same speed the inside car will pull ahead, middle car in the middle still while the outside car will fall back behind him. Picture every oval foot race in the Olympics. Its why they don't all start side by side. On the outside you have to go much faster to stay beside the inside car as you have to cover more distance. The outside pass being so hard because to get those extra mph you have to out brake the inside driver ;) cant brake before him then expect to fly ahead lol and that's a serious risk of going into the wall and a gamble you can hold MUCH more speed (extra speed to stay beside him + extra speed to pass) along the outside, its risky and not usually effective.

SO appearing ahead of the guy on the inside magically after the inside guy braked later into the corner is impossible, and regardless I really don't think anybody could come around the outside to be in the blue cars outside track without wall riding having not braked for the corner at all.
 
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K3Tuning
It looked like it when I was watching from 4th place POV, from this POV where we can see all 3 lead cars middle car looks like hes drifting inside making a bigger gap between him and the outer car...

The questions ARE NOT all specifically about this incident but questioning the pushing to the inside of a car attempting a pass comes up. Im using this incident as an example to explore but it brings up much broader questions.

Hard to see but while its 3 wide from 4th POV, could fit another car outside of the blue car. From Original lead car POV can see blue car get on brakes later while more than a car and a half ahead of the outside car at this point


HOWEVER

after re watching from blue car POV it looks like he dived in to go hard,



The example has me shook, those physics have me stumped :/ as far as I interpret things dont exactly work that way..


3 cars go into a corner side by side at the same speed the inside care will pull ahead, middle car in the middle still while the outside car will fall back behind him. Picture every oval foot race in the Olympics. Its why they don't all start side by side. On the outside you have to go much faster to stay beside the inside car as you have to cover more distance. The outside pass being so hard because to get those extra mph you have to out brake the inside driver ;) cant brake before him then expect to fly ahead lol and that's a serious risk of going into the wall and a gamble you can hold MUCH more speed (extra speed to stay beside him + extra speed to pass) along the outside, its risky and not usually effective.

SO appearing ahead of the guy on the inside magically after the inside guy braked later into the corner iis impossible
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Why do the cars have to enter at the same speed, I’m not using your examplebto ilustrate this mind because it doesn’t but simply to hold a tighter line you will be travelling slower the outside line doesn’t have too get in front to have equal right he just needs to be along side.


https://engineering.mit.edu/engage/...g-fan-blade-move-faster-than-the-inside-edge/

Therefore outside lines can brake later than inside lines.
 
rono_thomas
Why do the cars have to enter at the same speed, I’m not using your examplebto ilustrate this mind because it doesn’t but simply to hold a tighter line you will be travelling slower the outside line doesn’t have too get in front to have equal right he just needs to be along side.


https://engineering.mit.edu/engage/...g-fan-blade-move-faster-than-the-inside-edge/

Therefore outside lines can brake later than inside lines.
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The cars were relatively going the same speed here if anything inside car was moving fastest, sure one could use an example of an outside car speeding past an inside car but the inside and outside of a fan blade as your example will be going the same speed RPM while the 2 points on the blade (inside and outside) will travel different distances THAT is why it don't apply here

Its more reasonable to assume they will be going much closer in speed. More importantly we are talking about overtaking the guy on the inside overtaking had to be going faster, sure the example is right concerning a fan blade,Its not that simple here, additional forces are at play from inside to outside on a track where cars are gripping to the surface, if I understand your point correctly. Simply cant get more speed than the inside car after the inside car was moving faster into the corner and braked later into the corner.

I mean its not even like he had a car with more ability they all had the same car same limit of grip, holding way way way more speed to some higher limit, hows that work?

Lets say its a wide corner they do not have to brake at all for so the inside car would not brake late or well at all, it would be a question of how much speed is he scrubbing holding a tighter line vs how much faster the outside car can hold and if the extra speed of the outside car not only covers the added distance but enough speed to move ahead.

NASCAR is sometimes like this, on some track they are literally flat out the whole way. Outside lines can be faster, and or inside line gets progressively moved up as tires wear out fuel is consumed the grip to maintain speed tight fades away and the fast line moves up. EVEN THEN no cars going to come around as fast as one would have to go in order to get in the blue cars way for him to slide into them.
 
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K3Tuning
The cars were relatively going the same speed here if anything inside car was moving fastest, sure one could use an example of an outside car speeding past an inside car but the inside and outside of a fan blade as your example will be going the same speed RPM while the 2 points on the blade (inside and outside) will travel different distances THAT is why it don't apply here

Its more reasonable to assume they will be going much closer in speed. More importantly we are talking about overtaking the guy on the inside overtaking had to be going faster, sure the example is right concerning a fan blade,Its not that simple here, additional forces are at play from inside to outside on a track where cars are gripping to the surface, if I understand your point correctly. Simply cant get more speed than the inside car after the inside car was moving faster into the corner and braked later into the corner.

I mean its not even like he had a car with more ability they all had the same car same limit of grip, holding way way way more speed to some higher limit, hows that work?

Lets say its a wide corner they do not have to brake at all for so the inside car would not brake late or well at all, it would be a question of how much speed is he scrubbing holding a tighter line vs how much faster the outside car can hold and if the extra speed of the outside car not only covers the added distance but enough speed to move ahead.

NASCAR is sometimes like this, on some track they are literally flat out the whole way. Outside lines can be faster, and or inside line gets progressively moved up as tires wear out fuel is consumed the grip to maintain speed tight fades away and the fast line moves up. EVEN THEN no cars going to come around as fast as one would have to go in order to get in the blue cars way for him to slide into them.
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You are wrong. I did write I’m not using your example to illustrate this but that corner specifically you cannot drive as fast on the inside line as you can on the outside line when you go multiple cars into it thats a fact. If you do try to go as quick in the inside as a car on the outside you will lose grip sooner, it is just simple physics.

Ive defended that way multiple times tonight in test lobbies for FIA, the inside car has to lift to avoid any contact when the outside car drives as fast as it can whilst avoiding the wall.
 
rono_thomas
You are wrong. I did write I’m not using your example to illustrate this but that corner specifically you cannot drive as fast on the inside line as you can on the outside line when you go multiple cars into it thats a fact. If you do try to go as quick in the inside as a car on the outside you will lose grip sooner, it is just simple physics.

Ive defended that way multiple times tonight in test lobbies for FIA, the inside car has to lift to avoid any contact when the outside car drives as fast as it can whilst avoiding the wall.
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Sure

No corner you can drive as fast on the inside, I believe I said a few times it a trade off on the track... Sorry maybe its just your fan example is a poor one... This is about how the dynamics of the corner change depending on what happens going in.

Lets say in NASCAR with fresh tires and loads of grip they can hold tight the fastest line on the inside but as grip fades away so does their ability to go that fast so tight the fast line begins to move up the track. The outside car can hold a higher speed in the corner but has to go a farther distance with it so it becomes can he hold so much more speed he can not only stay beside but pass vs can the inside maintain enough grip to stay fast enough on the inside the outside car cant pass...

Had the outside car maintained the outside lane so magically the blue car wouldn't of touched him because he didn't go into the wide lane until exit where its his line.

Plus outside car could of stayed in the outside lane but didn't, nobody was in the lane and nobody would of been hit had they been in it.
 
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rono_thomas
Watch your own video again at 9:10.

Edit: You even mention it in your own commentary.
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PLEASE watch, switches to the outside AND Brakes later into the corner



EVERYTHING in the debate hinders on how the cars went into the corner DID NOT PASS in the corner neither
 
K3Tuning
Sure

No corner you can drive as fast on the inside, I believe I said a few times it a trade off on the track... Lets say in NASCAR with fresh tires and loads of grip they can hold tight the fastest line on the inside but as grip fades away so does their ability to go that fast so tight the fast line begins to move up the track. The outside car can hold a higher speed in the corner but has to go a farther distance with it so it becomes can he hold so much more speed he can not only stay beside but pass vs can the inside maintain enough grip to stay fast enough on the inside the outside car cant pass...
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Thats the whole point, how did the guy that took the inside line know that any of the drivers were not going to hold that outside line? He didnt, he was lucky that both other cars decided to cutback.

Then car 4 repeats the blue car mistake almost to a carbon copy understeering again, this guy should have been ready to pounce 3 cars going into that corner something was bound to happen.

Out of curiosity what dr sr lobby is it?
 
rono_thomas
Thats the whole point, how did the guy that took the inside line know that any of the drivers were not going to hold that outside line? He didnt, he was lucky that both other cars decided to cutback.

Then car 4 repeats the blue car mistake almost to a carbon copy understeering again, this guy should have been ready to pounce 3 cars going into that corner something was bound to happen.

Out of curiosity what dr sr lobby is it?
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He out braked them on the inside simple as that, he braked AFTER the outside car... HOW can he all of a sudden go light speed?
 
K3Tuning
Thats also true F1 cars you have a heck of a lot more control to adjust to the other cars. Good point. Everybody seems to be in GTS mode driving like its TT braking the very last moment on each corner
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Its not that F1 cars have more control in this case its that you must not exceed a speed in which you can not control your car. The car on the inside clearly was out of control, the only place he was going was way wide right up to the wall, the only adjustment he could have made was to brake less and actually hit the wall. If a driver did that in a real life oval race odds are he is leaving the track with a broken nose. :lol::lol::mad::mad:
 
fastone371
Its not that F1 cars have more control in this case its that you must not exceed a speed in which you can not control your car. The car on the inside clearly was out of control, the only place he was going was way wide right up to the wall, the only adjustment he could have made was to brake less and actually hit the wall. If a driver did that in a real life oval race odds are he is leaving the track with a broken nose. :lol::lol::mad::mad:
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But I dont understand because he did not hit the wall..... he made the corner and I dont see ANYBODY staying in their lanes as if they had to lol

Thats an aggressive pass but something everybody should be able to handle. Far ahead of the outside car by the time they went in
 
rono_thomas
And I’ve answered my own question you are the blue car 👍 (your other youtube vids contain your psn name)
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Never said I was or wasnt.... Look look to your left, a VR6T lolol

Really want to go that route Mr Detective lololol love how people get upset if others have apposing opinions. Look if you can't handle the topic keeping it on topic you dont have to participate. Pointing out who is who only shows you dont want to debate the topic anymore. Wanna Shame me, go ahead Lmfao I don't care, it shows more about you than me.

Welcome apposing opinion as it makes your argument more clear to others. Getting huffy puffy cuz the guys arguing with you is your problem. If you have an issue leave the convo
 
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K3Tuning
Never said I was or wasnt.... Look look to your left, a VR6T lolol

Really want to go that route Mr Detective lololol
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It seemed odd that you were defending a clearly out of control car.

K3Tuning
this thread is for learning to be better drivers,
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It seems this was a false claim.

For you to learn you first need to accept what you did wrong.

Edit: huffy puffy? Really where? I did think it was just you and I “debating”.

Until I’m told to stop debating by a Mod I’ll carry on,

It hasn’t gone off topic has it?
 
Well you are entitled to you opinion and I thank you for sharing it :D

If thats out of control I've not seen many races on that track with drivers in control lol
 
K3Tuning
Well you are entitled to you opinion and I thank you for sharing it :D

If thats out of control I've not seen many races on that track with drivers in control lol
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Thats not a defense of being in control but you are suggesting you have seen drivers in control and therefore realise you are out of control and were hoping folk would just agree with you.

Too quick for the corner meant a shed load of understeer that was avoided by the other cars not because you left racing room but because they were wise to it when they saw how late you were braking.
 
rono_thomas
Thats not a defense of being in control but you are suggesting you have seen drivers in control and therefore realise you are out of control and were hoping folk would just agree with you.

Too quick for the corner meant a shed load of understeer that was avoided by the other cars not because you left racing room but because they were wise to it when they saw how late you were braking.
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That's a good assessment, I welcome it. As said you are entitled to your opinion. I must say its waisted on me tho :D you chose to go a different route, now you want to switch back and further make your point when called out lol too late for me. Thank you tho
 
rono_thomas
Any pass has to be completed cleanly to not be classed as dirty. So ...

Thing is a car doesn’t have to appear in front of him for him to be able to make contact. Its totally possible to hang it out around the outside in the blue moon corners and simple physics means that objects moving around the circumference of a cirlce furthest from the circles centre are moving quicker, this means the cars on the outside have the choice to brake later and carry more speed he has no way of knowing they weren’t going to do that and it’s his in his best interest to cover the inside line to prevent a sucessful cut back from the other drivers, and fails at both objectives because he loses control, because he was greedy with how late he could brake - definitely not accounting for the extra speed provided by the slipstream.
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I said it 4 1/2 hours ago to you.

So you don’t actually want to learn to become a better driver as you originally claim?

Called out for what exactly?
 
K3Tuning
Well you are entitled to you opinion and I thank you for sharing it :D

If thats out of control I've not seen many races on that track with drivers in control lol
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The blue car that enters T1 on the bottom and pushes up high thru the corner is out of control because you can not determine where other cars are going to be on the track at any given time. If there was another car on the outside even with the blue car there definately would have been a wreck. Once again that was not a "racing line" that the blue car took thru the corner. A racing line is one which is the fastest therefore the most predictable path through the corner. Believe it or not predictability is extremely important, this is a race with other cars around, not a single car time trial. A fast racing line is one in which you straighten a turn as much as possible, high in, low at the apex which is the center of the corner, and high out because you let the car drifts up, the car does not drift up on its own. When you take a line like that you have the option of turning a little sharper or less sharp to adjust as necessary so you dont hit the traffic in the vicinity. When speed of the car dictates where the car is going rather than the car going where the driver chooses that perfectly describes an out of control car. When someone does not take predictable lines thru a corner that person will never successfully race against others because there will forever be crashing then people blaming each other. That will prevent a person from ever becoming a high level driver. The best thing to do is watch some race videos on YOUTUBE, look for Tidgney, he is one of the best on GTS and he posts a lot of race videos, there are many others also. You will see what good, fast, clean racing should look like.
 
Just to add my opinion to this, there is no way the blue car takes the corner under control. Yes it makes it from corner entry to corner exit without hitting anyone or the wall, but that doesn't make it controlled. The car, largely under braking, slides nearly the entire width of the track. That is not controlled.

What I will say is that I don't think it really contributed the the car spinning out. I also would add that it's brave to put a video up here inviting comment on your driving. The fact that you weren't upfront that you were the blue car and that you're now not taking criticism particularly well does suggest that perhaps you knew it wasn't your best driving.

You've made the point that if the blue car is out of control you've not seen many races with drivers in control. I think this is fair and yes the average racer will often lose control of their car from time to time. You've been advised to watch Tidgney (who's brilliant), but I can show you examples of him losing control. Myself just last night on Race B I came down to the hairpin faster than the cars ahead of me. I was hard on the brakes but with nowhere to bail on the outside and was bound to hit someone. In a moment of brilliance(:lol:) and sheer luck I came off the brakes to give myself more control and managed to thread the needle between two cars avoiding everyone and still managed to get the car slowed to keep it on the track. So in essence I got from corner entry to corner exit without hitting anyone or the wall, but was that "making the corner"? Of course not, it was poor driving. The point is to learn from it to become better.

You've faced a lot of criticism, but I think the points made against you are fair. The margins of error are small. You had slip streamed down the straight and were approaching the corner faster than normal and were off line. This would have changed your normal braking point and in all likelihood missed it by no more than a couple of meters, but it meant sliding through the corner.

It's actually no biggie. You didn't hit anyone, and like I said I don't believe it contributed to the spin.

Maybe turn this on it's head. Suppose you are on the outside of a car in turn 1 that skids sideways into you, slamming you into the wall. After the race the inside car states that had you not been there they would have made the corner. Would you consider them a clean driver?

Final thought, 3 cars into turn 1 of BMB never ends well for everybody. I've learned that the hard way.
 

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