GTSport takes 1 in Japanese game sales for the week!!

[rono_thomas]

In all fairness, cover art, much like instruction manuals (nowadays) are all pretty vague.

GT6:

GT5:

Just like sales data without digital copies taken into account is inconclusive, we have no way of knowing how many of these reviews are simply people "venting" about the direction of GT. I.E., people who knew about the game, but still want to be vocal about their displeasure. But I agree, I'm sure there are still some people in 2017 that just pick up a $60 item without knowing what it is.

This is pointless, we dont know how many positive reviews were given just because it has GT on a box.

It is the patterns and trends that aremost important, no matter which way its spun, they are pretty much saying exactly the same thing.

 

[marcvic]

Which is why personally I've used verified purchaser reviews from Amazon.

Those we know did buy it.

I thought on Amazon you could only review an item if you've purchased the item?

I think you mistake my point - my point was there were people who knew about the change of direction, still bought it, and still post a review of their displeasure on the new direction.

It is the patterns and trends that aremost important, no matter which way its spun, they are pretty much saying exactly the same thing.

I was addressing the point that PD were trying to mislead people into buying their game.

But I will now bow out of this one...

 

[rono_thomas]

I was addressing the point that PD were trying to mislead people into buying their game.

Don’t get me wrong I like the game, but I’m more than willing to admit that their marketing techniques are not on the face of it trying to “mislead” people, but neither are they going out of their way to make it blindingly obvious what it doesn’t do.

I’m pretty sure that can be defined as misleading.

 

[Scaff]

I thought on Amazon you could only review an item if you've purchased the item?

I think you mistake my point - my point was there were people who knew about the change of direction, still bought it, and still post a review of their displeasure on the new direction.

I'm sure that some did, however its impossible to measure and as such we work with what we have.

The key concern for PD and Sony should be that they are purchasers who are unhappy, and they outweigh the happy ones by a ratio that is not present for any other GT title when you look at Amazon verified reviews.

 

[dbarrade]

I'm amazed that without Polyphony Digital "communicating with their fans" somehow more than a million people must have accidentally downloaded 40+ gigs of some random demo.

And it feels to me like a roughly similar yet more polished version of the game.

I spoke to someone today who bought it after seeing it advertised on the side of a bus... each to their own.

We also don't know how many of these reviews are paid for by the competition / due to Polyphony not paying for reviews, or coerced into being through articles that condition anti competitive behaviour.

The website is actually really clear about what you get, far clearer than any back of box bullet point list and clearer than most reviews I've read... the main exception being "you can only use most features of the game if you are connected to the internet" but I think in this day and age that is implied... how much of works offline?

http://www.gran-turismo.com/us/products/gtsport/

 

[Scaff]

Don’t get me wrong I like the game, but I’m more than willing to admit that their marketing techniques are not on the face of it trying to “mislead” people, but neither are they going out of their way to make it blindingly obvious what it doesn’t do.

I’m pretty sure that can be defined as misleading.

The key factor here is not if PD and Sony set out to mislead.

Its if the customers feel that is the case. The reality of that situation is irrelevant, its the customer perception that is important, and right now it seems to be the worst its ever been for a GT title, and only one party can change that.

 

[F1NK]

PD released a Beta back in summer and a 1 week demo for everyone to experiment and play the game before buying it. Also, they're been clear on what they want to do with GTS since the beginning: online racing. Only people who live under a rock or buy games without even checking it before will feel mad or surprised about what type of game GTS is and how different from previous GTs.

I'm not saying GTS is better, I'm saying it was not something PD was hiding from the fans or the public.

Exactly this.

 

[marcvic]

I'm sure that some did, however its impossible to measure and as such we work with what we have.

The key concern for PD and Sony should be that they are purchasers who are unhappy, and they outweigh the happy ones by a ratio that is not present for any other GT title when you look at Amazon verified reviews.

Yes, that is the main point. Not that PD are sitting atop a mountain looking down to the minions, conjuring ways to deceive the public.

I won't argue the feedback, and I expected there to be unhappy people about the new direction. Very interesting for PD and Sony to not throw together a simple career, as the fan's displeasure started becoming vocal loooong before release. Seems like a very deliberate decision. That may be why Kaz was very surprised that so many people downloaded the demo, and were enjoying it so much.

 

[rono_thomas]

The key factor here is not if PD and Sony set out to mislead.

Its if the customers feel that is the case. The reality of that situation is irrelevant, its the customer perception that is important, and right now it seems to be the worst its ever been for a GT title, and only one party can change that.

Agreed, misleading is not really the right description although I do feel that PD/Sony did market it in a way that strikes me more similar as a Magician’s miss direction, there has been a concerted effort to shift focus away from not is included, to what is.

As for changing a customer’s perception what are the choices?

For PD to suddenly change their practices and suddenly become communicative and listen and react to fans input? Sadly Kaz’s track record doesn’t suggest this will ever happen.

If I was a competitor I would be salivating at this gap in the market that GT has currently vacated.

 

[Scaff]

I'm amazed that without Polyphony Digital "communicating with their fans" somehow more than a million people must have accidentally downloaded 40+ gigs of some random demo.

And it feels to me like a roughly similar yet more polished version of the game.

I spoke to someone today who bought it after seeing it advertised on the side of a bus... each to their own.

That's how most people buy a title in a well established series.

We (as in those who would take the time to join and post on sites like GTP) are the minority, the majority will pick up a box and buy it based on what has come before. It will happen with the next COD, Assassins Cread, Battlefield, etc.

I'm actually more surprised that people don't get that's how the majority buy games.

We also don't know how many of these reviews are paid for by the competition / due to Polyphony not paying for reviews, or coerced into being through articles that condition anti competitive behaviour.

You don't prove negatives, as such the onus is on the person making such a claim.........

The website is actually really clear about what you get, far clearer than any back of box bullet point list and clearer than most reviews I've read...

OK can you tell me what the four parts of the campaign mode are, that the old GT mode is not one of them and that I can't even save if the PD servers are down and/or I can't get on line?

the main exception being "you can only use most features of the game if you are connected to the internet" but I think in this day and age that is implied... how much of works offline?

http://www.gran-turismo.com/us/products/gtsport/

That's a false eqivalance of a rather massive scale.

GTS is to all intents and purposes an on-line only title, and Sony used to be very good about putting that kind of information in bright read letters on the front cover of titles (see old SOCOM titles, etc)

Please let me know of any other console racing title that has a similar requirement? Or for that matter any Sony first party title that has off-line content locked and saves impossible if you are not connected to the net and the titles servers?

Not being able to play the on-line part of a title without being on-line is not odd at all, however not being able to use all but one part of the off-line content and being blocked from saving without being on-line and connected to the title servers most certainly is.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Yes, that is the main point. Not that PD are sitting atop a mountain looking down to the minions, conjuring ways to deceive the public.

View attachment 683990

I won't argue the feedback, and I expected there to be unhappy people about the new direction. Very interesting for PD and Sony to not throw together a simple career, as the fan's displeasure started becoming vocal loooong before release. Seems like a very deliberate decision. That may be why Kaz was very surprised that so many people downloaded the demo, and were enjoying it so much.

Given that typical main title sales exceeded 10 million units is a participation rate of less than 10% of the fanbase really all that many people for a free demo?

 

[rono_thomas]

Given that typical main title sales exceeded 10 million units is a participation rate of less than 10% of the fanbase really all that many people for a free demo?

How many of them had a PS+ account...

 

[Scaff]

Agreed, misleading is not really the right description although I do feel that PD/Sony did market it in a way that strikes me more similar as a Magician’s miss direction, there has been a concerted effort to shift focus away from not is included, to what is.

As for changing a customer’s perception what are the choices?

For PD to suddenly change their practices and suddenly become communicative and listen and react to fans input? Sadly Kaz’s track record doesn’t suggest this will ever happen.

If I was a competitor I would be salivating at this gap in the market that GT has currently vacated.

Take a lesson from those that have had similar screw ups in the past.

Driveclub was unplayable on-line at launch, they worked to turn that around, engage with the comminity and ended up with a solid product that users really liked (and appreciated the studio as a result - to the point that most disliked that Sony killed of the studio).

Street Fighter V is almost a mirror of what PD have done with GTS. Again they are engaging with the audience, working on a single player element, re-balancing the two sides. How well they will succeed is yet to be seen, however that this is so recent and Sony and PD must have been aware of it, does then beg the question of how the let this happen.

As far as always on-line goes, just about every title that tried forcing it on an audience has had to either abandon it or scale it back massively or had on and off line saves; again this is well know so how Sony and PD thought it wasn't going to be a significant issue is again beyond me.

 

[rono_thomas]

Take a lesson from those that have had similar screw ups in the past.

Driveclub was unplayable on-line at launch, they worked to turn that around, engage with the comminity and ended up with a solid product that users really liked (and appreciated the studio as a result - to the point that most disliked that Sony killed of the studio).

Street Fighter V is almost a mirror of what PD have done with GTS. Again they are engaging with the audience, working on a single player element, re-balancing the two sides. How well they will succeed is yet to be seen, however that this is so recent and Sony and PD must have been aware of it, does then beg the question of how the let this happen.

As far as always on-line goes, just about every title that tried forcing it on an audience has had to either abandon it or scale it back massively, again thsi is well know so how Sony and PD thought it wasn't going to be a significant issue is again beyond me.

Maybe this is the height of arrogance that they thought they could do it better, because I’m unfamiliar with those titles what type of timescale for defeat to be admitted?

 

[dimassa19]

My gameplay on the last few Gran Turismo games is 99.9% Seasonal Event Time Trials.

Currently at about 75% of Missions but I can't see any Seasonal Time Trials anywhere. Hope they show up soon.

You can do Time Trial in the qualifying of the Sport mode as "Seasonal Events"...

 

[dbarrade]

...
OK can you tell me what the four parts of the campaign mode are, that the old GT mode is not one of them and that I can't even save if the PD servers are down and/or I can't get on line?

I thought the old GT Mode hasn't been a thing since GT2, I don't remember it in GT PSP or GT6, and I'm not sure about GT5?

From the website:

Campaign Mode is where you come to polish up your driving technique, and to learn about racing rules and manners. Campaign Mode contains the three features listed below.

Driving School
Learn everything you need to know in order to race, starting with the basics of how to drive a car. For more details, please refer to the "Campaign Mode" -> "Driving School" section of this manual.

Mission Challenge
Put your driving techniques to use as you seek to clear various challenges. For more details, please refer to the "Campaign Mode" -> "Mission Challenges" section of this manual.

Circuit Experience
Learn the best way to race around various tracks. For more details, please refer to the "Campaign Mode" -> "Circuit Experience" section of this manual.


NOTE: Online Saving Only
Gran Turismo Sport only supports online saving. Your game progress data will be stored on the online server. Please be aware, therefore, that any progress you make while offline cannot be saved (certain contents are saved onto the PlayStation®4 console's hard disk drive.) If you are playing offline, you will be able to use previously saved game progress data.

Gran Turismo Sport supports autosaving. To save manually, select "Save" from the Top Screen.

 

[marcvic]

Maybe this is the height of arrogance that they thought they could do it better, because I’m unfamiliar with those titles what type of timescale for defeat to be admitted?

Only time will tell - you do have titles like Overwatch (voted GOTY by many) and Rainbow Six Seige who've done it quite well, in the midst of their competitors failing. If executed properly it could be successful.

I do sympathize with the folks that miss classic GT mode. I grew up playing all of the Rainbow Six games (really loving Vegas 1/2), but I have yet to touch Siege because the lack of story mode.

 

[Tired Tyres]

I'm amazed that without Polyphony Digital "communicating with their fans" somehow more than a million people must have accidentally downloaded 40+ gigs of some random demo.

And it feels to me like a roughly similar yet more polished version of the game.

I spoke to someone today who bought it after seeing it advertised on the side of a bus... each to their own.

We also don't know how many of these reviews are paid for by the competition / due to Polyphony not paying for reviews, or coerced into being through articles that condition anti competitive behaviour.

The website is actually really clear about what you get, far clearer than any back of box bullet point list and clearer than most reviews I've read... the main exception being "you can only use most features of the game if you are connected to the internet" but I think in this day and age that is implied... how much of works offline?

http://www.gran-turismo.com/us/products/gtsport/

I check the PSN every Wednesday, store update day in the UK, and check what's new in games, pre orders, demos and free to play. That's the first time I will know about the vast majority of demos and so on. That's how you get a million downloads mate. It doesn't cost anything....

As for the completely brain dead requirement for most of the ONE player section of the game to be unavailable when not online. No you should not expect that. At. All. It renders the game Not Fit for Purpose when the server is down.

 

[rono_thomas]

Gran Turismo Sport only supports online saving. Your game progress data will be stored on the online server. Please be aware, therefore, that any progress you make while offline cannot be saved (certain contents are saved onto the PlayStation®4 console's hard disk drive.) If you are playing offline, you will be able to use previously saved game progress data.

Im assuming that that’s a copy and paste, it’s interesting the language used with if you are offline... if you are playing offline, here is the misdirection I was talking about, it doesn’t mention that the servers will be offline frequently and this will mean you can lose all progress, and be unable to play the games offline modes.

 

[Scaff]

From the website:

Campaign Mode is where you come to polish up your driving technique, and to learn about racing rules and manners. Campaign Mode contains the three features listed below.

Driving School
Learn everything you need to know in order to race, starting with the basics of how to drive a car. For more details, please refer to the "Campaign Mode" -> "Driving School" section of this manual.

Mission Challenge
Put your driving techniques to use as you seek to clear various challenges. For more details, please refer to the "Campaign Mode" -> "Mission Challenges" section of this manual.

Circuit Experience
Learn the best way to race around various tracks. For more details, please refer to the "Campaign Mode" -> "Circuit Experience" section of this manual.


NOTE: Online Saving Only
Gran Turismo Sport only supports online saving. Your game progress data will be stored on the online server. Please be aware, therefore, that any progress you make while offline cannot be saved (certain contents are saved onto the PlayStation®4 console's hard disk drive.) If you are playing offline, you will be able to use previously saved game progress data.

Gran Turismo Sport supports autosaving. To save manually, select "Save" from the Top Screen.

The website in the link doesn't contain either than text or that warning.

So either this is a from a different site or a customer has to be expected to go hunting for it.

Oh and that's still three, the site says four:

So as a potential customer on that website I would still be none the wiser.

You see you are expecting someone to have to read the manual to find this information out, information that contradicts the main website, and doesn't clearly state that on-line saves only and still doesn't tell me I can only do one thing if i'm not online or connected to the servers.

If you don't understand how that could be seen as potentially missleading to customers then you have a bright future in marketing [/sarcasm].

 

[dbarrade]

I wouldn't call noticing one of the four bold links right at the top of the page hunting for it.

http://www.gran-turismo.com/us/gtsport/manual/

So without going to my PS4 and looking, what is the 4th mode?

 

[Scaff]

I wouldn't call noticing one of the four bold links right at the top of the page hunting for it.

http://www.gran-turismo.com/us/gtsport/manual/

Then you don't understand how the average customer works.

It also contradicts the main page (is it three or four campaign sections) and the part on off-time saves is missleading.

"Gran Turismo Sport only supports online saving. Your game progress data will be stored on the online server. Please be aware, therefore, that any progress you make while offline cannot be saved (certain contents are saved onto the PlayStation®4 console's hard disk drive.) If you are playing offline, you will be able to use previously saved game progress data.

Gran Turismo Sport supports autosaving. To save manually, select "Save" from the Top Screen."

Yes certain contents is saved offline to the hard-drive, pity that some of it can't then be used wen you are offline, such as any livery you have been working on, your photomode stuff, replays or scapes!

Nor does it tell me that I can only use arcade mode if the servers are down or I can't connect to the net.

 

[dbarrade]

BTW, I actually hate the fact you can't do anything offline and agree this should be in bold letters on the box and on the main page of the website, what upsets me most is that it means in the future we'll never be able to get out an old PS4 and have a look at how bad / great the gameplay / physics were in 2017 like you can with a PS1 for example.

Having said that I believe most people expect everything these days to require online, I suspect you probably grew up without that like myself and are still buying Blu Rays and Magazines and like to ask the person in the store about the product they are selling and expect them to know about it.

I still believe there is a significant amount of information on the website and these days you see people in stores looking at the website on their phones even if they are standing in front of the box... it's not unreasonable to expect people who didn't learn enough about the game on that fairly slim first page to click through and read what else is available.

I also noted it said this on that first page:

Assist Features
High level driving assist features for anyone to enjoy

Gran Turismo Sport contains auto driving features that allow you to leave the brake and steering controls to the AI. Even those who are driving cars for the very first time can drive with confidence.
The high level driving assist aids in steering, throttle control, brakes, and stability control, etc., and each of these can be turned ON or OFF to match the skill level of the player.​

Which is why I wasn't surprised when the TCS kicks in during a simple slow drive around the track, I don't believe they are trying to model the 86's actual Traction Control, or any other cars real world driving aids, I think they have some "Assist Features" which they are using common terms for.

 

[gtracedriver1]

Japanese are mostly into Nintendo and handhelds. Even Japanese cars, track are low so that does not help. Still I think it will reach half a million in Japan

 

[Scaff]

BTW, I actually hate the fact you can't do anything offline and agree this should be in bold letters on the box and on the main page of the website, what upsets me most is that it means in the future we'll never be able to get out an old PS4 and have a look at how bad / great the gameplay / physics were in 2017 like you can with a PS1 for example.

Having said that I believe most people expect everything these days to require online, I suspect you probably grew up without that like myself and are still buying Blu Rays and Magazines and like to ask the person in the store about the product they are selling and expect them to know about it.

I don't disagree that people understand that a lot of functionality is on-line, however those same people get frustrated when they can't connect, particularly if they are unable to use off-line functionally at that point (take the internet away from any teenager and see what I mean).

I own far more digital title on my PS4 that I do physical ones, most of my viewing is on-line via Netflix or Amazon. I fully understand that if the internet is down I can't watch Netflix or Amazon, or play COD:MW online. I do however expect to be able to fire up the COD:MW campaign and play that, and have my progress saved while the connection is down.

This is simply not able people not understanding that we live in a connected world, and it both inaccurate and disingenuous for people to suggest it is. Its about people knowing the difference between what is on-line and off-line content and being quite rightly annoyed that off-line content is block for no reason at all.

I still believe there is a significant amount of information on the website and these days you see people in stores looking at the website on their phones even if they are standing in front of the box... it's not unreasonable to expect people who didn't learn enough about the game on that fairly slim first page to click through and read what else is available.

A significant amount is.

Its just that what is can be contradictory or in p;laces that are no obvious, it also ignores the fact that the average gamer (and we are not that when it comes to racing titles) do not bother with that. They will see a new title in a series is out, pick it up and buy it based on what it had in it before.

Now regardless of how well he publisher attempted to communicate the new direction to those buyers, if they were well informed or not, it doesn't change the fact that those consumers feel misled and unless the studio and publisher addresses that it may well sour the relationship with the people who buy the most copies of the series (and by quite a large margin).

Don't be fooled into thinking its the likes of us racing title fans who determine if a series the size of GT succeeds or not, it not us, it's actually the average punter who buys it, plays it for a few months and moves on. As they make up a far larger percentage of the audience and therefore purchasers than we ever will. As such pissing them off it bad for the series as a whole, and any feeling of being misled or ignored they have needs to be addressed, ,and addressed quickly, before they move on to the next thing.

I also noted it said this on that first page:

Assist Features
High level driving assist features for anyone to enjoy

Gran Turismo Sport contains auto driving features that allow you to leave the brake and steering controls to the AI. Even those who are driving cars for the very first time can drive with confidence.
The high level driving assist aids in steering, throttle control, brakes, and stability control, etc., and each of these can be turned ON or OFF to match the skill level of the player.​

Which is why I wasn't surprised when the TCS kicks in during a simple slow drive around the track, I don't believe they are trying to model the 86's actual Traction Control, or any other cars real world driving aids, I think they have some "Assist Features" which they are using common terms for.

And when set at a higher level I wouldn't disagree. However when set to one I would expect them to act at least close to the real world aids, particularly in a title that like to present itself as the real driving simulator.

 

[CopperySinger]

I'm sure that some did, however its impossible to measure and as such we work with what we have.

The key concern for PD and Sony should be that they are purchasers who are unhappy, and they outweigh the happy ones by a ratio that is not present for any other GT title when you look at Amazon verified reviews.

Anyone could go to amazon and say they don't like the game and give it a one star review. They can come in droves or create multiple accounts if they like, anyone can buy the game and give it a one star review as well.

These reviewers are not obligated to be honest about their review at all. With that said, these reviews from Amazon makes a non credible source to make any sense out of the numbers.

 

[Scaff]

Anyone could go to amazon and say they don't like the game and give it a one star review. They can come in droves or create multiple accounts if they like,

Which is why those ones have been ignored in discussions and only verified purchasers have been used.

anyone can buy the game and give it a one star review as well.

And why should they not be listened to? Is living in a positive only echo chamber a good idea and one that will inform and serve Sony and PD well?

These reviewers are not obligated to be honest about their review at all. With that said, these reviews from Amazon makes a non credible source to make any sense out of the numbers.

So they only do that for negative reviews do they?

Do amazon have a mechanism in place to stop it happening so that only 'real' positive reviews get through.

Why on earth is it so hard for you to grasp the very, very, very, very basic fact that some people are not happy at all about the direction GT has taken!

Should we also ignore the amazon verified purchaser reviews for GT2 through to GT6 that have a ratio that massively favours positive over negative?

Could that not indicate that the majority of people who bought GT in the past liken the format of the game, and the new direction of the game is not something they like?

Or are they all genuine and only the new ones 'fishy'?

 

[CopperySinger]

Why on earth is it so hard for you to grasp the very, very, very, very basic fact that some people are not happy at all about the direction GT has taken!

Because you can't prove that those Amazon reviews are genuine with 100% surety.

It is not only me that you want to get this understanding, but you want PD to take heed to this illogical point you are trying to make.

 

[Scaff]

Because you can't prove that those Amazon reviews are genuine with 100% surety.

In what way could they not be genuine.

It is not me that you want to get this understanding, but you want PD to take heed to this illogical point you are trying to make.

Living in an echo chamber will do them no good at all.

 

[rono_thomas]

Because you can't prove that those Amazon reviews are genuine with 100% surety.

It is not only me that you want to get this understanding, but you want PD to take heed to this illogical point you are trying to make.

So using your business model...

“PD Customer services meeting:

Memo to heads of department, don’t worry about any customer complaints they cannot be verified and therefore not trusted.

What a great job guys!

End of meeting, whos going for pint?”

Your argument is illogical.