Guns

[PzR Slim]

Murder is murder. But gun laws will not affect criminals killing criminals because these criminals won't hand in their guns just because you've made them illegal. Many of them illegally own the guns originally so why would they then comply with a new law?


I understand your view as a Britain looking into America. I've done the same for years. But the simple fact is a gun "ban" in America wouldn't work. The gun is to deep in the Amiercan culture and psyche. Unlike here in the UK where the gun was unseen by many and the right to own was thrown away like an empty crisp packet.

The less guns you have in circulation and the more regulated they are the less guns there are for the criminals to get their hands on. Simples.

 

[RC45]

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[ExigeEvan]

The less guns you have in circulation and the more regulated they are the less guns there are for the criminals to get their hands on. Simples.

Naive.

Introduce a ban in America and the criminals wouldn't need to acquire guns, they've already have them.

 

[PzR Slim]

Back again. Nothing new to add to the safe, but did get a couple boxes of ammo, and did not have to provide any special bullet licence or prove need - just paid me cash and pocketed me ammo

I am sure you are aware that gun and even ammunition ownership in Mexico is strictly controlled. Until the 90's you could 30 years prison if you had a sinlge round on your person.

This essentially means all the guns over .22 outside of military and law enforcement ownership that are not preapproved are illegal.

One would think then that the occurance of illegal weapons actions in Mexico would be really really low.

You have the interwebs, Google can let you learn how gun control has worked in Mexico.

I am, and I also think it has the highest number of deaths attributed to guns behind South Africa. Why not google the interwebs to determine just how much of a lawless state Mexico is? Funnily enough as a result of the huge demand for illegal narcotics in the US

However, I'm done now, just gone midnight here and I need to sleep. Been great debating with you, think we are farther apart than when we started but it would be a sad world if we all thought the same. Stay safe, and I really do mean that 👍

 

[RC45]

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[Azuremen]

Naive.

Introduce a ban in America and the criminals wouldn't need to acquire guns, they've already have them.

This. And it is nice to see people outside of the country that understand this. Not to mention our borders are massive, which leads to a lot of black market and such goods here anyhow. Just look at drugs, of which I'd have little trouble obtaining with a few phone calls to people I know.

And even if you could remove guns, people would use other means. Cars, crossbows, a board with a nail in it, etc, etc.

 

[Solid Lifters]

The less guns you have in circulation and the more regulated they are the less guns there are for the criminals to get their hands on. Simples.

That's just foolish and ignorant thinking on your part. If our nation had 'less guns' in the manner as you describe, a whole new black market of guns would be created. Then, only criminals will have guns and everybody else will become victims to violent crime.

Some of you people out of country just don't have a grasp how the way of life is over here in the US. It's just best to stay out of our business and leave us alone. We know what's best.

 

[Vautwin]

@ Pzr Slim. You gonna sit back and reelax knowing someone could easily beein killed, makes you a good guy!!!
You know what, always easy to blame other countries for their flaws, but you know what your country just rose on top of countries (at least in europe) where people get beaten to death by other juvenile when they been out drinking in a bar. You must be proud of that. So you can choose now, die by a head shot (fast and painless) or been beaten to death or crippled to lay forever in a vegetative state. Still the problem remains, it is not Guns it is the people using them. And as usual (yeah, Guns can be Fun sure as are cars. And if they provide fun it gets them to the state of a toy.) why is it seen so bad to have fun with guns? Because they can kill? So does dynamite!! Still lots of shows on tv where things get blown up (think of that british show pendant to mythbusters)
So the us citizens cant drink till 21 u guy's are not allowed to drink in a Bar until 6 o clock. And we know to what that leeds?
Anericans are gun obsessed idiots waving their pistols in bars?? At keast the enjoy a football game and have fun together in england and many other countries you will hate a guy (coming from the same city) just because he supports an other club??!!? How dumb is that? So should we ban spectators from stadiums because some idiots killed others on a match??? After all it was Football that got em killed. ??? Where shall this lead to? Exactly total control of about everything.

 

[ledhed]

It is funny we have gun threads for all the years I have been a member ---yet nothging has chabged except repeal of of assault weapon weapon ban ---and ..OMG --no one so far is using them for nornal crime stuff..after all ..a regular .38 generic works fine...ever notice it takes one event --in 1000 ,s to make a notice and demand a change ...all this time my city averaged same 300 dead per year .

What is the ave. in baghdad ?

 

[PzR Slim]

@ Lzrslim. You gonna sit back and reelax knowing someone could easily beein killed, makes you a good guy!!!
You know what, always easy to blame other countries for their flaws, but you know what your country just rose on top of countries (at least in europe) where people get beaten to death by other juvenile when they been out drinking in a bar. You must be proud of that. So you can choose now, die by a head shot (fast and painless) or been beaten to death or crippled to lay forever in a vegetative state. Still the problem remains, it is not Guns it is the people using them. And as usual (yeah, Guns can be Fun sure as are cars. And if they provide fun it gets them to the state of a toy.) why is it seen so bad to have fun with guns? Because they can kill? So does dynamite!! Still lots of shows on tv where things get blown up (think of that british show pendant to mythbusters)
So the us citizens cant drink till 21 u guy's are not allowed to drink in a Bar until 6 o clock. And we know to what that leeds?
Anericans are gun obsessed idiots waving their pistols in bars?? At keast the enjoy a football game and have fun together in england and many other countries you will hate a guy (coming from the same city) just because he supports an other club??!!? How dumb is that? So should we ban spectators from stadiums because some idiots killed others on a match??? After all it was Football that got em killed. ??? Where shall this lead to? Exactly total control of about everything.

Sitting back and relaxing was a Tongue in cheek comment aimed at RC after we got acquainted in our little tete a tete and he made a similar tongue in cheek comment regarding popping off to buy some more ammo

Most pubs open at 11.00 am in the UK, not sure where you got the 6 pm from. And very few people are murdered in the UK on nights out whilst drinking. The vast majority of murders in the UK appear to be young black men stabbing each other in inner city's. Anti social behaviour is a huge problem in this country but that doesn't often lead to murder. It's more just a pain in the arse for those that have to live with it.

You have an incredibly stereotyped and incorrect view of English football. The dark days are gone. It's a very rare occurrence for somebody to be murdered as a result of football. Violence does rear it's ugly head occasionally at football but incidents are very few and far between nowadays.

 

[PzR Slim]

That's just foolish and ignorant thinking on your part. If our nation had 'less guns' in the manner as you describe, a whole new black market of guns would be created. Then, only criminals will have guns and everybody else will become victims to violent crime.

Some of you people out of country just don't have a grasp how the way of life is over here in the US. It's just best to stay out of our business and leave us alone. We know what's best.

Do you not think there is already a huge black Market in guns or do all criminals use legally owned guns? And do you not think the readily available nature of guns in the US makes that black very easy to stock?

I lived in the US for about three years on and off over a five year period so have a better grasp than most

 

[Azuremen]

Do you not think there is already a huge black Market in guns or do all criminals use legally owned guns? And do you not think the readily available nature of guns in the US makes that black very easy to stock?

I lived in the US for about three years on and off over a five year period so have a better grasp than most

No, you are pretty clueless about it honestly. And more so about this notion about getting them into the country if they were to be banned or intensely regulated, or are you ignoring the huge array of neurotics brought into this country per year illegally?

Stop thinking you are so clever, it just makes you out to be naive.

 

[Vautwin]

You have an incredibly stereotyped and incorrect view of English football. The dark days are gone. It's a very rare occurrence for somebody to be murdered as a result of football. Violence does rear it's ugly head occasionally at football but incidents are very few and far between nowadays.

As You have of americans. And with 6 oclock i meant am.
So u have a problem with black's k ifing other blacks just as the other one stated the same in the us just that they shoot each other. The problem i mentionned was the one of people going threw streets and arbitrary start beatin someone, without any reason to it. Despise that the city is swarmed with cameras which do not prevent this to happen.

 

[PzR Slim]

No, you are pretty clueless about it honestly. And more so about this notion about getting them into the country if they were to be banned or intensely regulated, or are you ignoring the huge array of neurotics brought into this country per year illegally?

Stop thinking you are so clever, it just makes you out to be naive.

I assume you mean narcotics? And how do you work out I think that I'm so clever. Maybe I think I'm pretty dumb but try not to let that hold me back.

And no I don't ignore the huge number of narcotics brought into the US each year, hence why I mentioned it when Mexico was discussed earlier. At the moment though, no one needs to bring guns into the US illegally they are already there, people just have to obtain then illegally from within. Which was the point I was trying to make.

As You have of americans. And with 6 oclock i meant am.
So u have a problem with black's k ifing other blacks just as the other one stated the same in the us just that they shoot each other. The problem i mentionned was the one of people going threw streets and arbitrary start beatin someone, without any reason to it. Despise that the city is swarmed with cameras which do not prevent this to happen.

You really think that is a regular occurrence in this country? That we are wading the streets through the throng of people beating each other up?

And lets get the two nations problems with murder in context. In the US there are 4.3 murders per 100,000 people whereas in the UK there are 1.4 murders per 100,000 people. So while we do have a problem with knife crime and murder it is not nearly as much of a problem as they have in the US and therefore not directly comparable.

 

[blaaah]

Murder is murder. But gun laws will not affect criminals killing criminals because these criminals won't hand in their guns just because you've made them illegal. Many of them illegally own the guns originally so why would they then comply with a new law?

Doesn't matter that they don't comply.
Because when guns are illegal, if police suspect individuals or gangs of having guns, they can raid any property they like with a warrant just to search for guns. Or they can setup surveillance of the people to watch where they go if they try and recover a hidden gun. It will dramatically cut down on gun ownership and usage by criminals.

 

[Sam48]

Do you not think there is already a huge black Market in guns or do all criminals use legally owned guns? And do you not think the readily available nature of guns in the US makes that black very easy to stock?

Your still missing the point. A ban on guns prevents everyone except criminals to illegally own them. Therefore, when a bank robber holds up his pistol to the clerk, he will go un-challenged due to the fact no else in the vicinity has a gun on them. More people with guns means less crime.

 

[blaaah]

Your still missing the point. A ban on guns prevents everyone except criminals to illegally own them. Therefore, when a bank robber holds up his pistol to the clerk, he will go un-challenged due to the fact no else in the vicinity has a gun on them. More people with guns means less crime.

Yes he will might go unchallenged but so what?
He will be hunted down. Banks have other security measures, they don't need guns.

 

[Sam48]

Yes he will might go unchallenged but so what?
He will be hunted down. Banks have other security measures, they don't need guns.

A bank robbery was just a simple example I gave.

But for your sake lets assume then that it's not a bank robbery. Now, as before, owning a gun is illegal, and the criminal in this scenario is the only one with a gun, like before. However, this time around, he's at a shopping mall, he has nothing to loose, and his only incentive is to kill people. Now what? Who's going to stop him before police arrive? And how many people could he possibly kill within that span of time?

 

[blaaah]

Well as many as he likes. And he would shoot the police when they get there too as they are unarmed (America should ban arms for regular police as well as the public, except in special exceptions like in the UK who have some armed units).
But the fact remains It's a safer place to be in the UK, even when the police don't have guns.
When a report if someone with a gun is made for whatever reason, a special armed unit can respond and deal with it. There is not more crime.

 

[OG_Wretch]

Many more stabbings in the UK now aren't there?

Isn't a knife the weapon of choice by most street thugs?

It's even a crime to fight back too isn't it?
I mean you might hurt the criminal or make him
feel bad about how he chooses to survive, right?

 

[PzR Slim]

Your still missing the point. A ban on guns prevents everyone except criminals to illegally own them. Therefore, when a bank robber holds up his pistol to the clerk, he will go un-challenged due to the fact no else in the vicinity has a gun on them. More people with guns means less crime.

If that is the case how do you explain there being 20 more murders involving guns in the US, a country with a lot of guns, when compared to the UK, a country with very few guns, even though per capita there is more crime committed in the UK compared to the US?

 

[OG_Wretch]

Hmmm...http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6960431.stm

 

[PzR Slim]

Hmmm...http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6960431.stm

Hmmm indeed...... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8153392.stm

 

[OG_Wretch]

Are they off in the Army killing foreigners instead then?

 

[PzR Slim]

Are they off in the Army killing foreigners instead then?

I've no idea, like you, I was just reporting the figures I found.

Knife crime is indeed our main problem. But tends to be centred around two big areas. London and Manchester, I guess those two areas are where the gang problems exist in this country. The biggest problem the rest of the country faces is anti social behaviour. Groups of youngsters roaming the streets causing problems. Not crime as such, just making life a pain in the backside for everyone else.

 

[OG_Wretch]

I've no idea, like you, I was just reporting the figures I found.

Good lord man! you should be about finding out what's caused this decrease in violences
so the planet can be safer for the kitte...er I mean children yes, for the children!

I would but I'm against it.

 

[RC45]

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[PzR Slim]

And the truth shall set you free.

I prefer to live in a society and country with LESS crime,

Let's see on of you "gangs of youths" roaming the country over there try their **** here.

They wont and they can't - because they don't know whom is armed and whom is not.

That is the entire point of the exercise.

You outlawed guns and the ONLY outcome was the most obvious, you EMPOWERED your criminal element.

/thread

Thanks for playing along though

Maybe there is more chance of a toe rag stealing a packet of M&M's from his local newsagent. However, I'd rather live with that than be 20 times more likely to have my brains blown out.

And the crime figures are 84 crimes per 100,000 people in the UK compared to 81 per 100,000 in the US. So by having guns you have 3.5% less crimes committed per capita but a 216% increase in the number of murders caused by guns per capita. Doesn't seem like such a good deal to me.

Plus if the gangs from over here roamed the streets over there, they'd be tooled up adding to the number of dead.

 

[RC45]

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[ExigeEvan]

And the truth shall set you free.

I prefer to live in a society and country with LESS crime,

Let's see on of you "gangs of youths" roaming the country over there try their **** here.

They wont and they can't - because they don't know whom is armed and whom is not.

That is the entire point of the exercise.

You outlawed guns and the ONLY outcome was the most obvious, you EMPOWERED your criminal element.

/thread

Thanks for playing along though

Sorry, but this is stupid.

The UK has more petty crime from gangs. Low level drug dealing, fights, low-level robbery. But American gangs have armed war. It doesn't help your (and my own) pro-gun argument in the slightest.