Guns

[RC45]

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[blaaah]

You know you really don't help yourself in this debate with some of the stuff you come out with.

Have you read any of his posts?

 

[slayer91]

Think about, if a criminal knows there is a chance the person they plan to act against has a gun, they are lot less likely to attack them than someone they know doesn't have a gun. It's pretty simple:
1. Criminals prefer unarmed victims.
2. If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns.
3. Guns are much more effective against criminals than tazers are.

Besides, anybody who knows the Constitution (any American should) can tell you it's a guaranteed freedom that shall not be infringed.

 

[PzR Slim]

I didnt want to do this, as I hate the "my epenis is bigger than yours" tit for tat when it comes to ones country of residence, but you forced the hand.

http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs04/rdsolr1804.pdf

If I am not mistaken (and I seldom am mistaken) the violent crime rate is about 10 times higher in the UK than the US.

An armed society is a polite society.

There is your proof..

Think your going to have to do a little better than that. To use a favourite tack of yours, that depends on what each country counts as violent crime, in the UK all sexual offences are considered violent crime whereas in the US it's only forcible rape. However, with your comment I have highlighted I am out of here. No point debating anything with someone who has that opinion of themselves.

Have you read any of his posts?

Yes I have but how did your post add anything whatsoever to the debate?

 

[PzR Slim]

Please delete.

 

[Joel]

The greatest value we get out of youth weapons handling exposure is we remove the curiosity factor from the young person. They get to see what a gun feels and sounds like - the recoil, the impact of the bullet, the destruction it causes.

In short they see the dnager, use and practicality of the weapon, and have a little healthy caution instilled in them.

This allows someone to develop respect for the tool at an early age. No different to someone being taught how to use a circular saw vs someone who doesnt know how to handle one and slices their forearm in 2.

Education is the key.

This is exactly what I felt like. I never thought that a 12 gauge shotgun would have as much recoil and brute force that it did when if first shot one. At that time I was 12 and I had only seen guns on TV and in Call of Duty. I pulled the trigger and saw the watermelon target explode, and I really got a grasp on just how powerful they are, and how dangerous they can be in the wrong hands.

This experience has stayed with me, I'm not afraid of the recoil like I was when I was 12, but I'm diligent with the safety aspect. As I noted earlier, even when I'm using an airsoft gun (350 fps, little plastic 6mm bb), I have trigger discipline and I verify my target before I even think about aiming at it. It's just an automatic reflex now to keep the finger off the trigger.

I think if more people actually had this kind of experience we as a society would have more respect for the gun, instead of fear. I don't even want to start with how much unjustified gun fear there is in Canada. "I just don't like them" "they just scare me". These are people who have never ever touched a gun in their life, and they think the only people who should be allowed to have them are the police and military because they don't understand how they could be fun and enjoyed safely. For me, when I think of "gun" I think of shooting skeet with my dad, whereas when these people think of "gun" all they can think of is a school shooting because they've never been instilled with anything but fear about guns.

 

[RC45]

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[Sam48]

Think about, if a criminal knows there is a chance the person they plan to act against has a gun, they are lot less likely to attack them than someone they know doesn't have a gun. It's pretty simple:
1. Criminals prefer unarmed victims.
2. If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns.
3. Guns are much more effective against criminals than tazers are.

Besides, anybody who knows the Constitution (any American should) can tell you it's a guaranteed freedom that shall not be infringed.

We've been trying to tell them that for quite I while, but your right on the spot nonetheless.

The simple fact of the matter is that if you want to lower the crime rate, you must eliminate as many criminal motives as possible. This is why comparing individual country's gun laws with their respective crime rates is completely irrelevant. Also, the gun in itself is simply a tool by which a criminal/murderer may use. Whether or not they use a gun does not change their original intentions. Therefore, if a criminal's intentions is to kill someone, they will kill someone, be it any means necessary.

 

[Sphinx]

The reason I am telling you I am not mistaken, is because I am quoting positions from memory that are correct - I am just not in the mood to find the links for you

But someone will post them and when they do I will be vindicated - its just how it goes.

No. It's not how it goes. If you make a statement and declare it as factual, you then back it up when asked to do so. If you can't be bothered to do this, then this makes anything you say worthless.

 

[RC45]

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[Sphinx]

On that note, I bow out of yet another pointless Interwebs debate whose outcome will not change reality - and that reality is an armed society is a polite society.

I don't see much politeness coming from you, just a degree of arrogance, sarcasm, together with a bit of personal opinion thrown in for good measure. But then, you are after all, the man with the gun, so who am I to argue.

 

[OG_Wretch]

I refuse to comment on the attendant irony...
...other than to say so.

 

[RC45]

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[Vautwin]

Then how do you explain such similar crime rates in the US and UK even though their respective gun controls are so different?

Slovakia and Slovenia, both countries with strict gun laws that have lower crime rates than both the US and Switzerland. So not all countries with tight gun controls have high crime rates.

Ok as i am living next to both of these countries at the moment, i can tell u that inside their country that may be thruth, i dont know, havent checked it but if you go o a musical festival, yes there is steLing going on every where, but in these countryes you can pay extra to get into a secured camping compond, the need for such a a special emplacement tells enough. Mobiles getting stolen out of your hand...... There is a lo g list. Plus if you look up the motorcycles stolen in Vienna in a year it is scary, i still wonder (but i am glad) why mine didnt dissappear while it stood 3 months outside?? But i lived in a lretty decent district of Vienna but now moved to another one and dont know if my 2 chains and alarm fitted breack disc lock will be enough 

So why this excursion from the topic? The fact is that these bikes get stolen by gangs operating from these country's that we got open boarders (i think you font have any of these in the UK nor in the US) which are very close to vienna doesnt help too much. So this is one example, plus why should they commit chrimes in their country where the people have less goods, the sentences are higher and prisons less comfortable.... These things motivate their criminals of rading over the boarders.
This might sound a little harsch and pretty xenophobic which isnt where i want to get but we should in this case check who commited that crime and where he is from.

 

[Danoff]

Tonight I find myself having to make a trip to the wrong part of Los Angeles at night, and possibly having to hang around in my car. I sorely want to take one of my handguns with me for self defense, but it is illegal for me to do so. I've talked myself out of breaking the law and taking my gun anyway, but I'm taking a chance by doing that.

It irks me to no end that my law-abiding self has to leave my best tool for self defense at home because of the law when criminals will not think twice about arming themselves.

 

[ledhed]

I live in Phila --we get maybe 300 murders ayear ..80 % or so fire arm related.

The task force for gun Violance decided to kick all Gun crimes into federal court so they get 5 year mandatory ...supposedly this will DETER crims from carrying ..

So gang bangbangers quickly resorted to stabbing each other to death --or using baseball bats or running each over.

The task force is gone .

We had 300 murders or so againthis year .

A gun is a tool .
When you have 60 laws and wont enforce them for whatever current PC or financial reason..you let criminals with 12 arrest roam around , WHY do you expect low crime rates ?

Ban Guns .
Like Drugs Guns become just another way for criminals to earn cash ..and in Phila the murder rate will stay the same .

 

[Joel]

Tonight I find myself having to make a trip to the wrong part of Los Angeles at night, and possibly having to hang around in my car. I sorely want to take one of my handguns with me for self defense, but it is illegal for me to do so. I've talked myself out of breaking the law and taking my gun anyway, but I'm taking a chance by doing that.

It irks me to no end that my law-abiding self has to leave my best tool for self defense at home because of the law when criminals will not think twice about arming themselves.

Americans and Canadians aren't so different after all. We're not allowed to defend ourselves either.

 

[OG_Wretch]

Americans and Canadians aren't so different after all. We're not allowed to defend ourselves either.

Only in some places.

I can defend myself with deadly force if I deem it necessary.

 

[Joel]

Only in some places.

I can defend myself with deadly force if I deem it necessary.

It's the same here, but we'll never be able to have concealed carry, ever. People here think gun bans work.

 

[OG_Wretch]

Times sure have changed as I recall driving through the Western Providences with two
shotguns and a brush rifle on my way to and from Alaska in the early and late 80's.

Neither Customs nor the Real Crunchy Mud Puppies took issue either trip.

 

[Keef]

Tonight I find myself having to make a trip to the wrong part of Los Angeles at night, and possibly having to hang around in my car. I sorely want to take one of my handguns with me for self defense, but it is illegal for me to do so. I've talked myself out of breaking the law and taking my gun anyway, but I'm taking a chance by doing that.

It irks me to no end that my law-abiding self has to leave my best tool for self defense at home because of the law when criminals will not think twice about arming themselves.

And to think, you could have taken your gun, been arrested, shown up on local news with your story supporting gun rights and safety and responsibility, gone national with it, appealed to the Supreme Court, convinced them to decide in favor of the Second Amendment to where no office of government at any level shall pass a law infringing a citizen's right to possess and carry firearms intended for self-defense, had all such laws repealed across the country to raucous booing from those less insightful, and been written in history books for decades to come as the man who saved the Second Amendment and helped to cement the United States' reputation as the fairest, freest, greatest country in the world.

Way to miss an opportunity. 👍

 

[Sphinx]

You forgot, politest.

 

[ledhed]

The supremes did confirm the right --it also said " reasonable restrictions" can be imposed...So LA. has the right to restrict who it allows CCP to...BUT if California is part of reciprocipty aggreement with MOST States in USA ..any CCP from any state is to be honored.

If you have a CCP in Your town of say Redwood city ..and go to LA.. they going to say your California Concealed carry permit is NOT valid in La > ??

I used to love California ..in the 1980's I spent a great deal of time there and had some of the best years of my life--but I am glad I never moved permantly .

 

[BrutherSuperior]

No. It's not how it goes. If you make a statement and declare it as factual, you then back it up when asked to do so. If you can't be bothered to do this, then this makes anything you say worthless.

Here's some links;

John Lott

Here's a book of his

What's interesting about Lott is his background and education isn't in guns, politics, or any victim studies; he's basically a math/science nerd. His resume speaks for itself and you can search Amazon for his other books or the web for better a synopsis of his works regarding guns & crime.

See, RC45 was right. Someone would post links. Little patience man.

 

[ledhed]

Why do we have a board with members from many different countries -- In a poll for Gun control ?

For example ..if I grew up in society that has strict control and its considered NORMAL not to own firearms --in fact utter madness to allow a COMMON person to actually have responsibility to CARRY one ...why will I answser in the poll --anything but ..Guns should be strictly regulated ?
After all its always been this way here and you crazy cowboy people in that place with all the macdonalds and crack and Mobsters , after all you are not exactly considered sane by the rest of civilization anyway.

Is their gun control in Iraq ?-- They kill less people there than here ....but all they have are RPG's car bombs and Automatic weapons and a tiny un-civil war .
and the odd suicide bomber and IED .

So since we have more guns per person ..although not quite so nice as we can't play with all the good stuff..those Iraqi dudes are slackers.

We need to send some crips down see them.

 

[gary31]

Well the thread does not state anything about country and maybe it should.

Gun control is not just an issue in the US. Austalia introduced some new gun control legislation in the wake of the Port Arther shooting in the late 90's. this reduced the number of guns in Australia dramaticly.

Yes crimanalas still have guns (a lot less than they used to). However most of these guns are used on other criminals and there ae rarely any inocent victems. The 'gangland war' in melbourne is a good example of this.

Gun control is good and has worked well in Australia.

 

[BrutherSuperior]

Well the thread does not state anything about country and maybe it should.

Gun control is not just an issue in the US. Austalia introduced some new gun control legislation in the wake of the Port Arther shooting in the late 90's. this reduced the number of guns in Australia dramaticly.

Yes crimanalas still have guns (a lot less than they used to). However most of these guns are used on other criminals and there ae rarely any inocent victems. The 'gangland war' in melbourne is a good example of this.

Gun control is good and has worked well in Australia.

So getting rid of legal gun ownership is ok? It's ok to disarm law abiding citizens b/c the only people then with guns are criminals and criminals only shoot other criminals and commit crimes against other criminals?

That's some really short-sighted thinking.

 

[gary31]

Yeah thats not what i said.

I said that there will still be guns as criminals are pretty smart and will work around most laws.

removing guns will reduce the number of guns in circulation, yes i know criminals will not hand over their guns like most law abiding people. But when legislation is in place it will be possible to confiscate their guns. Yes they can just get more guns but it will be much harder as they can't steal guns of law abiding people, as i am sure this does happen (i know of a case where a police officer has had his gun stolen).

My point about criminals using guns on thenselves is a statement on the need for a gun for protection. I belive criminals do not use their guns very freely as they know that guns and ammo are hard to come by, hence thay don't use them on innocent people.

To reiterate this worked for Australia because we did not have many guns to start with i agree to do this in the US would be very difficult due to the number of weapons currently avialable.

 

[Anes]

It irks me to no end that my law-abiding self has to leave my best tool for self defense at home because of the law when criminals will not think twice about arming themselves.

This is interesting. It irks you that you can't carry a gun for self defence but it doesn't bother you that your country is so far down the toilet that you have to carry a gun to feel safe.

 

[Dotini]

Gun control in the US is dysfunctional by design. From the Constitution right on down to the ATF.

http://www.banderasnews.com/1011/nw-usefforts.htm

U.S. efforts to stop the "iron river" of guns headed south to Mexico's drug war are being hampered by failures at the federal agency tasked with tracing and seizing the weapons, according to a Justice Department report.

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) fails to share intelligence with other agencies in the United States and Mexico and does not target the big fish in the illegal trade, the department's Office of Inspector General said in a report released on Tuesday.