Has Forza 3 suppressed you appetite for GT5?

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Just because something is scroed high, does not mean it is the best for the HARDCORE fan base.. GT4 was not that highly scored back in those days, yet i was one of the most popular racing games.. Only TOOLs fallow scores..

Same thing with BAYONETA, it got a PERFECT score, but does not appeal to everyone.. he is not bashing, he is speaking his mind, I have FM3 and I would call it too a FM2.5.. its not that polished of a game.

Bayonetta doesn't even come out untill next year? So what score are you talking about? Famitsu?

I'm talking about Gamerankings and Metacritic, where Forza 3 is the highest scoring racing game this gen.

Like there's anything "Hardcore" about GT 4 ( I mean GT 3.5 - But I'm not bashing it right? ). It wasn't even online. It deserved the score it got - Epic Fail 👎
 
Like there's anything "Hardcore" about GT 4 ( I mean GT 3.5 - But I'm not bashing it right? ). It wasn't even online. It deserved the score it got - Epic Fail 👎

Number of PS2 games in total (source metacritic): 1,605

Number of PS2 games with online features (source wikipedia): 166

That includes games in a series (Like fifa 05, 06 etc.). It also includes games that were expansions such as Phantasy Star Universe AotI. It also includes games that were merely trialled. I don't know anyone who went online with a PS2. It was not an online friendly console. You have to remember that when GT4 was finished at the end of 2004, The PS3 was well under development. PD trialled online features for GT4 in 2006 in Japan. They scrapped this after 3 months to focus on GTHD. Also, the list doesn't specifiy if they have online play, 'features' could mean anything. LMA Manager was in that list, the only online there was the ability to download new football players stats from the January transfer window. It had no online play whatsoever. So lets estimate around half of that list have actual online play (If you want to prove me wrong go ahead), so around 1/20th of the total PS2 games had online play.

Highest metascore PS2 games:
1 Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3 2001 97
Online? Yes, it was the first game to feature online play.

2 Grand Theft Auto III 2001 97
Online? No

3 Resident Evil 4 2005 96
Online? No

4 Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty 2001 96
Online? No

5 Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas 2004 95
Online? No (at least not for ps2)

6 Grand Theft Auto: Vice City 2002 95
Online? No

7 Gran Turismo 3 A-Spec 2001 95
Online? No

8 Madden NFL 2003 2002 95
Online? No

9 Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 4 2002 94
Online? Yes

10 Devil May Cry
Online? No

If GT4 was marked down due to lack of offline, it is an unfair judgement, the PS2 was never really designed with online play in mind (They did take measures to make it possible, but they never had intentions of putting it online, which they could have done from the start as the dreamcast had already shown). The ethernet was there for LAN. There are well over 20 games rating above 90% that don't have online. Tony Hawks proskater 3 must have been rated highly because of it being the first PS2 game with online features. Any game released after this (2001) that didn't have online should have been crucified by reviewers, but they wern't whereas GT4 was? The only reason it didn't have online is they were pushed for a release date from Sony, the game was not finished.

I hope the same doesn't happen with GT5, i hope they release it when its ready not when Sony says so.

Oh yeah, to sum up; that is why metascores suck. They don't take everything into account. Reviews in their qualitative form are much more useful, a number tells you nothing.
 
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Oh yeah, to sum up; that is why metascores suck. They don't take everything into account. Reviews in their qualitative form are much more useful, a number tells you nothing.
Actually, a number tells you plenty of things - a consistent 90+ score tells you that generally speaking, that game is a strong representation of its genre, and is well liked by the gaming community. Saying "metascores suck" is pathetic, because it is just a compilation of loads of review scores.

Yes, I totally agree, a qualitiative review is much more informative. However, that doesn't mean the final score is meaningless (especially an industry average score). Saying such a thing just goes to show how naive you are.
 

You just got owned Simple SIM ;)

I say anyone who uses scores as a guideline for his game list does not have taste. Sure you could use it to see whether it's a good game or not (like that YOUR WINNER), but judging a game by a score of a general group is not justice.
 
Actually, a number tells you plenty of things - a consistent 90+ score tells you that generally speaking, that game is a strong representation of its genre, and is well liked by the gaming community. Saying "metascores suck" is pathetic, because it is just a compilation of loads of review scores.

Yes, I totally agree, a qualitiative review is much more informative. However, that doesn't mean the final score is meaningless (especially an industry average score). Saying such a thing just goes to show how naive you are.

You seem to misunderstand my point. You keep taking simple phrases like 'metascores suck' out of context and imply i meant that in the literal meaning, when in the next sentence i explained why.

Can you honestly tell me that GTA4 was a better game than GTA San Andreas? Sales figures were fuelled by hype and reviews. But many online forums and gaming communities i have been in over the past couple of years agreed that San Andreas was the better overall game. Metascores don't lie. They just don't tell the whole truth.
 
You seem to misunderstand my point. You keep taking simple phrases like 'metascores suck' out of context and imply i meant that in the literal meaning, when in the next sentence i explained why.

Can you honestly tell me that GTA4 was a better game than GTA San Andreas? Sales figures were fuelled by hype and reviews. But many online forums and gaming communities i have been in over the past couple of years agreed that San Andreas was the better overall game. Metascores don't lie. They just don't tell the whole truth.
OK, without backtracking over posts I'm sorry if I took your phrase out of context, but in my defense, saying "they mean nothing" and "they suck"...both very literal statements.

Was GTA4 a better game than San Andreas? In some way, yes. In many ways, no. I admit that overall I did prefer San Andreas to GTA4, but then I also preferred Vice City over San Andreas. At the end of the day, it's irrelevant - all that matters is what I think of a game. Whether anybody agrees is immaterial, so in that respect, all reviews are pointless, right?

I wholeheartedly agree that using a number to represent how "good" a game is, is rather out-dated, and can only ever be a guide. Collective written words and opinions by groups of individuals are far more informative. Having said that, scores are not going away, and will continue to remain very relevant in many peoples buying decisions.

In relation to Forza 3, I still fail to see why people are getting all defensive about their beloved GT franchise when it is perfectly clear to see that Forza 3 is a very capable, highly rated racing game for all to enjoy.
 
For the record i would have not given GTA4 no more than 7/10 for the graphics on any system. Too much hype in deed (ign gave 10 for every aspect but that is their opinion as every review)
 
For the record i would have not given GTA4 no more than 7/10 for the graphics on any system. Too much hype in deed (ign gave 10 for every aspect but that is their opinion as every review)

Oh no, the graphics were good, you've just been spoilt rotten by GT :P

It was the general gameplay that was lacking. San Andreas felt like a better game to me. But i liked Vice City the most, it brought more to the franchise than San Andreas and GT4 did. A lot of the good features Vice City and San Andreas had were taken out for GTA4 such as buying businesses and planes.

One thing that annoyed my mate is that the modellers for GTA4 were listed right at the bottom of the credits, below everything else. And i mean everything, even the game testers and the radio show voices, everything. He's doing a course at University in game design and he is focusing his optional modules on modelling rather than programming/coding etc.

We have went a little off topic here though :lol:
 
Forza 2.5 is good fun but it makes the wait seem even longer. They have cut sooo many corners and limited and locked so much good content I'm glad PD has taken the time to put forth the effort to make a quality game WELL worth the wait.

fail.jpg
 
Forza is good but its not a 10 or even a 9.5. After 24 of gameplay, and almost 2mil earned online alone and at a level 29 I can say the game is probably a 8.5. Its a very solid game, but its a tad too arcadey especially with the 4wd cars jesus, all you can pick online to stay competitive is the R8, the S5, the 2 Limited Edition Porsche and Ferraris and some Skyline. There is no parity at all, the 4wd cars are at least 2 sec quicker on every track. I can blast out high 1.28s on Laguna Seca all day with any 4wd car but get a F430 or any other 2wd car and I struggle to get a 1.30.

The Online is a little foul without a penalty system. You can crash into guys without penalty except after the race is over you might get booted only if enough people vote for it. The problem is ,that enough of it goes on, that chances are another punter is coming into the room as the other leaves.

Did I mention the racist and ignorant behavior? yeah its bad.

Did I mention that because there is no penalty and because of the slight, slight arcade nature that someone can continually crash you the entire race? Yeah instead of the computer recognizing an overly aggressive move or speed and hosting you, it lets whatever happen. So yes, on Le Sarthe I an literally be 1st and have a guy come from 1000 plus ft or whatever away in last, and they will smash into the whole field at 180+ mph. Then be able to regain control because of the lack of damage and keep it moving a good deal higher than where they were.

Last thing is why don't people realize that when you are tailing someone, because of the reaction time you need to be covering your break and start to break almost before the guy in front does? Same for crappy race lines. I know there is an optimal race line but if I am 15ft from you, coming down a straight, I am going to have a go at you, period. So you can hang out in the perfect line if you want but your dumb as$ should have blocked inside, basic really.

And that what grinds my gears
 
OK, without backtracking over posts I'm sorry if I took your phrase out of context, but in my defense, saying "they mean nothing" and "they suck"...both very literal statements.
Well, I'll tell you why Metacritic sucks. It's because the general reviewer community has been loosing it's mojo and credibility over the past three years. It's not just the Gamespot incidents, it's the general fawning orgy over everything Microsoft ever since the 360 came out. It's why a steaming pile of silliness like GEARS! gets a 94, in spite of the fact that the game is nothing but a box of unimaginative cliche's, washed out old Unreal graphics, bad scripting, bad weapons, meh enemies, gameplay which is a series of wash, rinse and repeat slaughter of a few enemies in locations strung together by shadowy corridors. Oh, but Halo wasn't out yet, so the shooter fans needed something to glom onto.
 
I'm going to laugh when GT5 gets some awesome review scores and no one questions them.
 
Honestly, the only game I read reviews of for ages was Forza 3. I paid close attention to the physics and handling remarks, and when the demo hit, I thought sure a bag of white powder had been sent along with the game. Of course then I got the game, and suddenly I realized that the demo wasn't quite the final build. Or something was a little off. In any case, I agreed with the reviewers.

However, none of the other games I'm waiting on (Ratchet & Clank ACIT, Uncharted 2, Heavy Rain, God of War - the real GoW, GT5, etc) am I reading reviews of, except on occasion to see how well they agree with me. Being PS3 games, I'm sure there will be divergence. ;)

By the way, reading Jenius' remarks above, I'll have to say that Forza really does have some odd quirks to it. Some are from design decisions like the weird omission of public lobbies. Some are bugs, such as cars like the Golf GT1 and Trueno which have surfaces that don't get along with the livery editor. And then there's the online environment which is a minefield. But what's strange is how badly 4 wheel drive cars dominate. It was rather like that in the other games, and I'm surprised Forza 3 is the same way. There are advantages, but not overwhelming ones. Very odd, and something no reviewer likely would notice.
 
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Honestly, the only game I read reviews of for ages was Forza 3. I paid close attention to the physics and handling remarks, and when the demo hit, I thought sure a bag of white powder had been sent along with the game. Of course then I got the game, and suddenly I realized that the demo wasn't quite the final build. Or something was a little off. In any case, I agreed with the reviewers.

However, none of the other games I'm waiting on (Ratchet & Clank ACIT, Uncharted 2, Heavy Rain, God of War - the real GoW, GT5, etc) am I reading reviews of, except on occasion to see how well they agree with me. Being PS3 games, I'm sure there will be divergence. ;)

By the way, reading Jenius' remarks above, I'll have to say that Forza really does have some odd quirks to it. Some are from design decisions like the weird omission of public lobbies. Some are bugs, such as cars like the Golf GT1 and Trueno which have surfaces that don't get along with the livery editor. And then there's the online environment which is a minefield. But what's strange is how badly 4 wheel drive cars dominate. It was rather like that in the other games, and I'm surprised Forza 3 is the same way. There are advantages, but not overwhelming ones. Very odd, and something no reviewer likely would notice.


It is weird indeed, I don't get why a 4wd can blow you away off the line, and out of corners and on the straight. There is no point where a 2wd car catches up in this game or has an advantage.

I was watching a British Touring Car Race and it was awesome, you had Rwd BMWs being glued to by Fwd Chevys, but nobody was pulling away, it was stright technique. There were a few cars with some ballast weight, and I thought thats sort of what the PI or PP system in Forza and GT was supposed to do, even the field.

The other problem with online is they need to have more classes within the main class. All you see in A Class is 599 and 600 cars all day. They need a class where its nothing more than 550 or 575 cars in A Class, because I don't like B Class. They tried to have an Pro A Class but that sucks because, its just ghost running, there is no threat to hit anyone, and have you ever tried racing with 6 ghost in front of you? you can't see anything.

Its definitely things a reviewer wouldn't notice without 1, being pretty good and consistent so they could run at the front and 2 without playing for a very extended period of time. I say this because I have close to a 60% win percentage and a 92% podium rate. But everytime I lose, it is either because I got so wiped out an the race didn't allow enough time to catch up or a 4wd car is miles faster than my car. I can't tell you the last time I lost to a 2wd car, and I only noticed it after playing for a few days and comparing fastest times, which are only truly visible when out of traffic.
 
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Well, I'll tell you why Metacritic sucks. It's because the general reviewer community has been loosing it's mojo and credibility over the past three years. It's not just the Gamespot incidents, it's the general fawning orgy over everything Microsoft ever since the 360 came out. It's why a steaming pile of silliness like GEARS! gets a 94, in spite of the fact that the game is nothing but a box of unimaginative cliche's, washed out old Unreal graphics, bad scripting, bad weapons, meh enemies, gameplay which is a series of wash, rinse and repeat slaughter of a few enemies in locations strung together by shadowy corridors. Oh, but Halo wasn't out yet, so the shooter fans needed something to glom onto.
Oh I agree, I haven't really paid attention to any reviews for years now to be honest - all that matters are my expectations and how they are met, or not, as the case may be. Having said that, I'm not sure I'm totally with your analogy with GEARS there. Sure, it might be "unoriginal", but I played it, and had a bunch of fun doing so. 94% worth of fun? Nah, probably not, but that's irrelevant. Killzone 2 on PS3 was just as unoriginal. Forza 3 is also unoriginal, but it is a good racing game. Sure, it has flaws, but what game doesn't? It's about time people stopped crying about why reviewers do not agree with their opinions, and just enjoying their games for what they are.
 
It is weird indeed, I don't get why a 4wd can blow you away off the line

Huh?

Of course then I got the game, and suddenly I realized that the demo wasn't quite the final build. Or something was a little off.

Rumor has it that the cars were specially tuned and modified to appeal to the casual crowd in the demo.

However, none of the other games I'm waiting on (Uncharted 2),

What are you waiting for? The SP kicks major butt.
 

He meant it is weird they can beat you off the line AND on the straight AND through the corners. You don't get that killer understeer and you don't get affected too much by the added weight a 4WD system creates. It has traction off the line and traction out of the corners. But out of a corner it is different; with good throttle modulating, a RWD car can easily match a 4WD car. Off the line 4WD cars have a clear advantage though. But like i said, with the extra weight, the acceleration advantage from the added traction is shortlived.
 
Forza 3 will not suppress my appetite for GT5, only for one reason, because I don' have an Xbox360. A friend of mine has Forza 2 & 3 and I think Forza it's a great game, but for me, it's not deep as GT. The other problem about Forza it's the wheel catalog, you know, the G25 doesn't work, and Fanatec it's really expensive. But, If Forza 3 was released for PS3 (yes, it sounds bad), it would suppress my appetite for GT5.

The game that will supress my appetite for GT5 will be GT5P, like nearly 2 years before. :lol:
 
He meant it is weird they can beat you off the line AND on the straight AND through the corners. You don't get that killer understeer and you don't get affected too much by the added weight a 4WD system creates. It has traction off the line and traction out of the corners. But out of a corner it is different; with good throttle modulating, a RWD car can easily match a 4WD car. Off the line 4WD cars have a clear advantage though. But like i said, with the extra weight, the acceleration advantage from the added traction is shortlived.

Not always true, a FIAT 500 wont handle as good as a heaver sports car.



4WD is really way to go, but when u have 600 over horse power, not many 4wd setups can handle it. So then RWD cars are best
 
Not always true, a FIAT 500 wont handle as good as a heaver sports car.

True :) But handling is affected by a lot more than just weight. Acceleration however... There is nothing more sure to stunt acceleration that weight. lower weight often results in quicker acceleration. RWD cars are naturally lighter than 4WD counterparts, so with the same engine, the 4WD will have the advantage at lower speeds, but the RWD car will have an advantage accelerating in 3rd gear and beyond.

In real life, the gap between mid-performance cars where drivetrain is concerned is actually quite small, if anything 4WD is faster all round. But like you said, with high performance cars, RWD handles the power better and is therefore faster around a track. Evidently 4WD is overpowered in Forza as 4WD in high performance cars has very few drawbacks, so RWD cars have no chance, but it should be the other way around for those higher classes.
 
Wow... that's pretty tragic. :lol: Anyway...

I was watching a British Touring Car Race and it was awesome, you had Rwd BMWs being glued to by Fwd Chevys, but nobody was pulling away, it was stright technique. There were a few cars with some ballast weight, and I thought thats sort of what the PI or PP system in Forza and GT was supposed to do, even the field.

The other problem with online is they need to have more classes within the main class.
I was watching the bots race after I'd finished a run on Motegi, and it was three 3000GTs nose to tail. Very precise, just like a real race. I can sort of do that myself, but between still getting dialed in well, and adjusting to the driver view, it's still a touchy matter. The bots' erratic behavior doesn't help either. It's fun to race in the thick of a crowd of bots in Prologue, but these, I just want to get an overpowering car to escape from them. And wow, AWD cars are the bomb. All of the advantages and none of the drawbacks. Not a clue why.

I can see why the cars are coded to be slightly different, because they are. But whenever you grab a car, unless it's out of the PI range by a fair margin, the game should do some sort of instant homologation, so that they're fairly well matched. Supposedly, this was going to be a part of these new games... but then, there weren't supposed to be these sorts of domination issues from a few cars like before. And this is after months of testing and tweaking. I'm not sure this can be patched all that well, but we'll see.

Oh I agree, I haven't really paid attention to any reviews for years now to be honest - all that matters are my expectations and how they are met, or not, as the case may be. Having said that, I'm not sure I'm totally with your analogy with GEARS there. Sure, it might be "unoriginal", but I played it, and had a bunch of fun doing so. 94% worth of fun? Nah, probably not, but that's irrelevant.
Well, my post could have been better fleshed out concerning Gears. It's unoriginal in that the plot sounds like something from a junior high school comic club, so does the dialog. So do the weapons. So do the monsters. The whole thing seems like it was written for 13 year olds. Killzone in contrast is unoriginal much as Halo is. And yet the whole XBox world tilts on its axis over Halo.

Yes, reviews are pretty pointless because they end up dissatisfying large groups of people on all sides. Now that we've resolved that Metacritic is fairly worthless, let's move on. ;) I will say that if GT5 gets rave reviews, what it will mean to me more than anything is that finally the strange world of game journalists will have finally come to their senses. I still expect an anal exam which few XBox games will receive. Forza 3 is showing a lot of undiscovered warts and wrinkles, maybe intentionally.

What are you waiting for? The SP kicks major butt.
GAH... I keep forgetting that these games are out. Tekken too. I'm waiting till next payday to get them, as I'm still embroiled in Forza anyhow. Ratchet & Clank, I'm awaiting the arrival of an import special edition, woo!
 
I'm not sure if NFS Shift demo is anything like the full game, but the physics are appalling. I guess it's not really filling the void for many people here either
 
Wow... that's pretty tragic. :lol: Anyway...


I was watching the bots race after I'd finished a run on Motegi, and it was three 3000GTs nose to tail. Very precise, just like a real race. I can sort of do that myself, but between still getting dialed in well, and adjusting to the driver view, it's still a touchy matter. The bots' erratic behavior doesn't help either. It's fun to race in the thick of a crowd of bots in Prologue, but these, I just want to get an overpowering car to escape from them. And wow, AWD cars are the bomb. All of the advantages and none of the drawbacks. Not a clue why.

I can see why the cars are coded to be slightly different, because they are. But whenever you grab a car, unless it's out of the PI range by a fair margin, the game should do some sort of instant homologation, so that they're fairly well matched. Supposedly, this was going to be a part of these new games... but then, there weren't supposed to be these sorts of domination issues from a few cars like before. And this is after months of testing and tweaking. I'm not sure this can be patched all that well, but we'll see.


Well, my post could have been better fleshed out concerning Gears. It's unoriginal in that the plot sounds like something from a junior high school comic club, so does the dialog. So do the weapons. So do the monsters. The whole thing seems like it was written for 13 year olds. Killzone in contrast is unoriginal much as Halo is. And yet the whole XBox world tilts on its axis over Halo.

Yes, reviews are pretty pointless because they end up dissatisfying large groups of people on all sides. Now that we've resolved that Metacritic is fairly worthless, let's move on. ;) I will say that if GT5 gets rave reviews, what it will mean to me more than anything is that finally the strange world of game journalists will have finally come to their senses. I still expect an anal exam which few XBox games will receive. Forza 3 is showing a lot of undiscovered warts and wrinkles, maybe intentionally.


GAH... I keep forgetting that these games are out. Tekken too. I'm waiting till next payday to get them, as I'm still embroiled in Forza anyhow. Ratchet & Clank, I'm awaiting the arrival of an import special edition, woo!

I actually think both of those games have pretty unique plots to them. Killzone also had a very unique playstyle with the way you could feel the weight of the character when you played.
 
True :) But handling is affected by a lot more than just weight. Acceleration however... There is nothing more sure to stunt acceleration that weight. lower weight often results in quicker acceleration. RWD cars are naturally lighter than 4WD counterparts, so with the same engine, the 4WD will have the advantage at lower speeds, but the RWD car will have an advantage accelerating in 3rd gear and beyond.

In real life, the gap between mid-performance cars where drivetrain is concerned is actually quite small, if anything 4WD is faster all round. But like you said, with high performance cars, RWD handles the power better and is therefore faster around a track. Evidently 4WD is overpowered in Forza as 4WD in high performance cars has very few drawbacks, so RWD cars have no chance, but it should be the other way around for those higher classes.

Yeah I see what you mean, I agree.
 
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