How does the GT community really feel about catch the rabbit races?

[PzR Slim]

So what your saying is that you can't accept other peoples opinions. Yeah, that sounds like PD's fault.

Some people are of the opinion the world is flat. This is about as ridiculous as that

 

[MisterWaffles]

A decent career mode with good AI. Not so sure why that’s too much to ask of a game franchise that is nearly 20 years old, and claims to be “The Real Driving Simulator”

I’m talking about people who complained before and slightly after launch that this game “wasn’t like older GT games” and therefore was turd, but when they got a career update they turned around and continued complaining because it was the same chase the rabbit gameplay as the old GT games.

The YouTube comments were full of it around December and it was incredibly annoying. You obviously don’t want a “traditional career mode” so I don’t see why you have a problem.

 

[twitcher]

I’m talking about people who complained before and slightly after launch that this game “wasn’t like older GT games” and therefore was turd, but when they got a career update they turned around and continued complaining because it was the same chase the rabbit gameplay as the old GT games.

The YouTube comments were full of it around December and it was incredibly annoying. You obviously don’t want a “traditional career mode” so I don’t see why you have a problem.

Depends how you define traditional. If you mean a traditional GT career mode, no, I don’t want that. If you mean a traditional career mode like is in almost every other racing game, with proper championships, full race weekends, and decent AI, then yes, that’s what I’m asking for.

 

[ImaRobot]

I’m talking about people who complained before and slightly after launch that this game “wasn’t like older GT games” and therefore was turd, but when they got a career update they turned around and continued complaining because it was the same chase the rabbit gameplay as the old GT games.

To be honest, that's just about fine with how they approached it. People asked for the game mode, and they gave it, something that I'm glad for. However, to leave it with the same issues it faced with seemingly little change, it makes it seem a bit lazy.

It is a step in the right direction, but it seemed too much like an afterthought from what I can see.

 

[Victoria H]

I gave up on the later GT League events because they feel rigged, or I am doing something wrong. Either way, I can't get even close to the leaders because halfway through the race they're already 40-50 seconds ahead of me and I can do nothing but fight for the 3rd or 4th place. They'll always slow down at the final laps, but it's already too late at that point.

At least with custom races we have a few tweaking options. Still better than GT6...

 

[AlexAlien]

The AI is horrible in the game, not better than in GT6 unfortunately. It shouldn't even be called AI, as the cars drive the same in every race - try grinding at Blue Moon as an example and you see the same exact behaviour again and again.

How should new drivers learn anything before jumping into Sports Mode?

Racing against real AI would certainly help, the way it's implemented, with bumping, brake checking, etc. newbies learn nothing, if not the wrong things!

For me it's mostly boring, with a piece of anger

...and how can it be realistic to gain 40s in a few laps and then barely win, because 'AI' is suddenly much faster.

@PD: Maybe outsource programming and game design as well, project management is all you need then

 

[devildog666]

One you can setup a custom race.
Two what is more fun in ANY game video or otherwise-playing a person or a computer?
Come on here.
I wouldn’t have posted but for the comment the games company doesn’t know Motorsport!!!!
Wow.
All I know is basically anytime I want I can race against live competition. I hope GT Sport is here to stay!
Talk about first world problems guys...
It’s like sex is it better with a partner or two?

People want all aspects of the game to be good, not just one part of it. If there is going to be an offline version of the game, then it should be as good as they can make it. FYI, not everybody wants or likes to race online all the time.

 

[simsimsheree]

88mph!

The AI have been discussed ad nauseam for as long as I have been playing PD games (GT5Prologue). They have barely changed. But a few factors come into play before we can get any significant improvement.

First is... has anyone complaining about GT's AI played with other games' AI much? Or spent much time on their forums listening to thoughts about them? The truth is, no-one is happy with the AI of any racing game. At least, no-one with any real skill and a good awareness of how real drivers drive.

Yes, PC2 and AC do standing starts. And take a good half a lap or more before it isn't a smashfest of weirdly jerking (especially PC2) cars behaving nothing like real drivers. You can also get off the line so fast compared to the AI in most classes that starting at the back generally has you at least mid-pack by T1 (whereupon you get smashed into by the seemingly blind AI!). PC2's rolling starts are bugged and cars fly by you with no penalty before the green, but the slightest infraction by you gets you a drive-through.

Be careful what you wish for..!

Add to that, the only way to significantly up the overall AI pace is by seriously changing the physics of the AI. I believe AC is the only game that claims the AI run the same physics as the player. GTS's graphics hit probably makes that impossible, and you end up with the AI, if set to your pace or faster doing some very unbelievable physics at certain areas of the track, once again leading to a lot of very dodgy moves by the AI as they barrel into corners far faster than you can, and whack you off track! That's the PC2 approach.

Yes, I believe that PD ought to seriously up their 'Professional' pace (or add AC's 'Alien' mode!), but trust me, once they do, another set of issues is going to come to light. We are a long way away from any game having an indistinguishable AI from real drivers.

I think, for me, the idea of an adaptable AI is best. Over the course of several races, it ought to be possible for the game to know what are your average speeds around any track, any car class, and rather than rubberband (let you scream ahead, figure out your lap times, and then scream after you even faster), simply start each race at a pace that is close to equal. But even this isn't going to LOOK like real drivers. Just present a better challenge...

But, to get back to 88mph... This issue has been talked about for over a decade. With ZERO improvement. The AI is exactly where PD want it. Easy enough for the noobiest of noobs, and not hard enough to allow good drivers the choice of staying with the game the day they shut down the servers rather than buying PD's next game...

TBH, if GT6's AI presented a proper challenge, I (and I'm sure many. many others) would never have bought GTS. And PD know this.

 

[zawcranejr]

I know some people hate GT Sport for being focused on online but really the offline aspect is nothing special. I always played GT5 and GT6 99% online.

 

[cleanLX]

Seriously looking at other options.
Love the graphics, sound and physics continue to get better... but the racing... just too random/unpredictable for me to sit down and invest time into, whether that be in sport mode with the unusual penalty system or offline with the brutal AI/rubber-banding.

GT Sport... an online racing chaos creator with an offline training program that rewards and promotes such behaviour.

 

[rono_thomas]

There’s a definite argument to be had that the offline career, improved AI, would enhance GTS.

PD must feel some disappointment with the level of sport mode participation. The game is built for this online competition but yet the majority of consumers are playing, using it offline.

Whilst the AI desperately need to be improved theres also as the figures suggest a need for sport mode to be improved.

 

[twitcher]

88mph!

The AI have been discussed ad nauseam for as long as I have been playing PD games (GT5Prologue). They have barely changed. But a few factors come into play before we can get any significant improvement.

First is... has anyone complaining about GT's AI played with other games' AI much? Or spent much time on their forums listening to thoughts about them? The truth is, no-one is happy with the AI of any racing game. At least, no-one with any real skill and a good awareness of how real drivers drive.

Yes, PC2 and AC do standing starts. And take a good half a lap or more before it isn't a smashfest of weirdly jerking (especially PC2) cars behaving nothing like real drivers. You can also get off the line so fast compared to the AI in most classes that starting at the back generally has you at least mid-pack by T1 (whereupon you get smashed into by the seemingly blind AI!). PC2's rolling starts are bugged and cars fly by you with no penalty before the green, but the slightest infraction by you gets you a drive-through.

Be careful what you wish for..!

Add to that, the only way to significantly up the overall AI pace is by seriously changing the physics of the AI. I believe AC is the only game that claims the AI run the same physics as the player. GTS's graphics hit probably makes that impossible, and you end up with the AI, if set to your pace or faster doing some very unbelievable physics at certain areas of the track, once again leading to a lot of very dodgy moves by the AI as they barrel into corners far faster than you can, and whack you off track! That's the PC2 approach.

Yes, I believe that PD ought to seriously up their 'Professional' pace (or add AC's 'Alien' mode!), but trust me, once they do, another set of issues is going to come to light. We are a long way away from any game having an indistinguishable AI from real drivers.

I think, for me, the idea of an adaptable AI is best. Over the course of several races, it ought to be possible for the game to know what are your average speeds around any track, any car class, and rather than rubberband (let you scream ahead, figure out your lap times, and then scream after you even faster), simply start each race at a pace that is close to equal. But even this isn't going to LOOK like real drivers. Just present a better challenge...

But, to get back to 88mph... This issue has been talked about for over a decade. With ZERO improvement. The AI is exactly where PD want it. Easy enough for the noobiest of noobs, and not hard enough to allow good drivers the choice of staying with the game the day they shut down the servers rather than buying PD's next game...

TBH, if GT6's AI presented a proper challenge, I (and I'm sure many. many others) would never have bought GTS. And PD know this.

You’re right that the AI in PC2 has its issues, but they’re minor compared to the issues with PDs AI. I’ve done many, multi hour, multi-class endurance races in PC2 with the AI. Some car and track combos work better than others, and yes the AI has limits and flaws, but for the most part, I could get at least somewhat emmersed in the experience and enjoy the racing - battling wheel to wheel for position, slipstreaming, pit strategy, etc. In GT, the AI is so unrealistic and aweful that it completely ruins the experience, not to mention that PD’s single player race formats are old, generic, and repetitive.


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There’s a definite argument to be had that the offline career, improved AI, would enhance GTS.

PD must feel some disappointment with the level of sport mode participation. The game is built for this online competition but yet the majority of consumers are playing, using it offline.

Whilst the AI desperately need to be improved theres also as the figures suggest a need for sport mode to be improved.

Those numbers are pretty shocking.

 

[VBR]

Seriously looking at other options.

Me too. See this from 6'35.


👍

 

[TT92]

Here we go, flame suit on ;-)

Yep all good points and yes I feel the pain too but it will NOT and has NOT changed from previous games.

According to the current propaganda out there 6million have bought/played this game so WHY would PD change what they are doing? Why when you have outsold your competition would you even think about changing doing what you are doing?

So to everyone reading this *IT IS YOUR FAULT*! You bought the game, you already new what it was going to be like, you have given your tick of approval to PD to continue rehashing the same old garbage over and over.

The game is a glorified arcade game designed for noobies on hand controllers with pretty graphics, cartoon cars you can dress up like Barbie and make believe tracks. And YOU have gobbled it up.

Yes, I have too :-( Only because it has the best and most stable online and all my racing buddies have it so I either join in with the masses or race alone with far better games, with better cars/tracks/physics. There's my choice >:-( Between a rock and a hard place :-(

Just stop and consider this for a while. As a game developer (and a very successful one) PD do what they do to make money and while they keep making money they will stick to their proven formula. *IF* this game had sold under 1 million copies, sport races deserted, hardly any online lobbies and pages of negative feedback here and elsewhere do you think we would be even having this conversation? Don't you think we would be hearing about GT7 being brought forward and PD's new physics and AI model?

PD have given the public what we asked for. And we have gobbled it up by the millions! Simple really ;-)

PS here is an example of failure to listen. For the whole of GT6 there was a campaign raging to bring back Shuffle Racing. Has anyone seen it yet? I'm sure the same people asking for it have bought GT Sport too so it goes to prove my point ;-)

 

[rono_thomas]

Those numbers are pretty shocking.

Hard to believe, I do worry if they can be believed there are so shocking.

 

[ImaRobot]

First is... has anyone complaining about GT's AI played with other games' AI much? Or spent much time on their forums listening to thoughts about them? The truth is, no-one is happy with the AI of any racing game. At least, no-one with any real skill and a good awareness of how real drivers drive

Yes, and if we talk about the main competitors, while still not perfect, still put a damn good effort. All Ai is going to have some sort of issue, and will never be perfect, but that really shouldn’t be an excuse to not move forward.

 

[Nielsen]

According to the current propaganda out there 6million have bought/played this game so WHY would PD change what they are doing? Why when you have outsold your competition would you even think about changing doing what you are doing?

The decent sales numbers have nothing to do with this particular aspect of the game. Actually, it might had sold 30% more copies if the offline racing was great.

 

[TonyJZX]

I think leagues is like that 'single player campaign' thing in multiplayer FPS.

They reckon you need it to see so they put in a perfunctory effort and leave it at that.

 

[twitcher]

Hard to believe, I do worry if they can be believed there are so shocking.

I wonder what the numbers are for something like, “people who have just played around in online lobbies, doing random stuff, but not racing competitively.”

Going back to 5 & 6, I’ve long believed that a large portion of GTs player base are people who are into cars and car culture, but not into racing. How many people do you know who spend more time in the livery editor, or window shopping in Discover, that they racing wheel to wheel with other players? It’s for this reason I’ve long felt GT should walk it’s own path, be the best “virtual car culture” simulator on the market (which would involve some racing of course), and leave esports to other titles. Or if they’re going to do esports, it needs to be just one aspect, not the main focus.

Look how many people in GT like to drift, drag race, cruise, highway race, do car shows, and other stuff like that. There’s multiple games currently all competing to be the number one racing sim, but no one is out there trying to make game that covers other aspects of car culture without being a complete arcade street racer (aside from NFS and The Crew). I’d be hella curious to see what kind of numbers a PD created equivalent to Horizon could do. I think people would go nuts for it. PD graphics, presentation, GT6 Car list, a big open world (Tokyo for example lol). People would eat it up.

The problem with GTS being so focused on real/competetive racing, is who are the “serious sim racers” out there who are still on Gran Turismo?? People who are really into sim racing and take it at least semi serious, they left the GT franchise a long time ago. They went to AC, PC, or something on a pc like iRacing. So in terms of the entire virtual racing community, even the majority of the most serious GTS players are casuals, due to the fact they play GTS. There’s a small fraction who are in it to win it in GT Acadamy, but those numbers are in the 100s or 1000s, compared to the 1000000s who bought the game.

Or Sony just needs to shell out the big bucks so we can get a complete driving game that would be called Project Asseto Turismo Horrizon (PATH )

 

[rono_thomas]

Would more realistic AI improve sport mode standards or does chase the rabbit AI just teach sport mode participants to race exactly as they do?

I wonder what the numbers are for something like, “people who have just played around in online lobbies, doing random stuff, but not racing competitively.”

My first GT game was GT5, the memories I have are endless hours of online lobby racing, and they tended to be at least half full (8/16) to be honest when I load up online lobbies in GTS I struggle to find 1 room with those types of numbers. That was with chase the Rabbit AI, the numbers dont lie, (sounds a bit dramatic) the difference is the GT population has declined, yes the market has become diluted and perhaps to do everything is just too big a task, but, as has been mentioned why change the formula if its not broke? Well ok, they did change the formula and the numbers suggest it hasn’t been well received.

 

[cleanLX]

Me too. See this from 6'35.👍

Yep, that is what I'm looking at... already have a very serious gaming laptop, to connect to my TV... have wheel/pedal/chair setup... and, at a point in life money is not a deterrent...
Just trying to figure if I will commit the time...
Are you going to pull the trigger?

Going back to 5 & 6, I’ve long believed that a large portion of GTs player base are people who are into cars and car culture, but not into racing. How many people do you know who spend more time in the livery editor, or window shopping in Discover, that they racing wheel to wheel with other players? It’s for this reason I’ve long felt GT should walk it’s own path, be the best “virtual car culture” simulator on the market (which would involve some racing of course), and leave esports to other titles. Or if they’re going to do esports, it needs to be just one aspect, not the main focus.

Look how many people in GT like to drift, drag race, cruise, highway race, do car shows, and other stuff like that. There’s multiple games currently all competing to be the number one racing sim, but no one is out there trying to make game that covers other aspects of car culture without being a complete arcade street racer (aside from NFS and The Crew). I’d be hella curious to see what kind of numbers a PD created equivalent to Horizon could do. I think people would go nuts for it. PD graphics, presentation, GT6 Car list, a big open world (Tokyo for example lol). People would eat it up.

I really don't like the fact that what you are saying is 100% truth.
The game really is about car culture, which in my mind is so "stupid" with how accessible cars are in real life, but, whatever, PD is doing it's thing...
Having said that I have a street/strip car rips at the track, is a blast to drive and gathers crowds at car shows, yet, it sits in storage and I play this game.
And, to be honest, I bought the game for one thing... hot lapping the ring in a 911 (will never happen in my real life)... with the most enhanced graphics going to date.
What have I become?

 

[Stephan]

I'm really not that bothered with this whole "chase the rabbit" thing since I don't feel that way whenever I do custom races which by the way I kept mentioning this (maybe I don't depends ) but when this game came out and there was no GT League yet, I was already satisfied with the custom race mode because again it's a reminiscent of GTPSP's arcade mode. I even go as far as saying that I don't even need GT League/Mode like that when they made the custom races awesome. (Now they just need to add the ability to use our own garage cars or any car for the AIs just like in Juiced 2)

When GT5 and 6 came out both of the arcade modes there lacked the ability to set the fuel depletion and tire wear and to me that was annoying and of course the AI was well "chase the rabbit".

And now here in GTS where the AI for custom races is just good and with the ability to set the fuel depletion, tire wear, AI difficulty, timed/lap race, choosing different car classes to face, adjusting the penalties, etc.

As for GT League? Sorry to say this but all I see is just one way to farm cash quickly just like in the previous GTs where we would find that one GT mode race that has a good payout to buy new cars. Though I do GT League but custom races had pretty much taken over since again the AI. The only time I would do GT League is the Endurance League which is alright but AI-wise? Not yet close to custom race mode AI.

That is just my two cents.

 

[adb]

Not even career, just a custom championship/season mode with proper AI

 

[Veinz]

It's a big ask from PD, but they should copy a lot of things from Pcars single player.

 

[TT92]

The decent sales numbers have nothing to do with this particular aspect of the game. Actually, it might had sold 30% more copies if the offline racing was great.

Sadly, you missed the point. It has everything to do with sales numbers as I explained. Chase the rabbit may as well be Mario Cart races for all that it matters. If lots of people keep buying what gets churned out nothing will change. When it stops selling only then will PD (or any other developer) take any notice.

This "chase the rabbit" has been like this since GT 5 Prologue when I first started playing so nothing that gets discussed here will have any impact on this game. And the next iteration, whether it be GT Sport 2 or GT7 will be just the same! :-( PD have the sales numbers to know what has sold well so they will continue to dish up exactly the same stuff right up until it stops selling.

 

[VBR]

Yep, that is what I'm looking at... already have a very serious gaming laptop, to connect to my TV... have wheel/pedal/chair setup... and, at a point in life money is not a deterrent...
Just trying to figure if I will commit the time...
Are you going to pull the trigger?

Unfortunately for me, money is a big problem. Already have a Playseat Evo & a few different wheels though; G25, G29 & CSR. Might be able to get a gaming PC up & running soon, as a mate said he'll donate some parts to me from his old one. If I had a decent gaming PC, I would've tried all the PC sims out years ago. I only stick with GT because I'm actually stuck with it; PC gaming hasn't even been an option financially speaking. If I do build one, I'd be connecting it to my TV as well. Hope it works good enough...

 

[MatskiMonk]

Considering the focal point of the game, I would think that some wouldn't take the term so literal. Lets not try to fool ourselves, these are racing simulators, regardless of the title slapped on it. The two terms are completely interchangeable here in my opinion, and this point always perplexed me. If you're racing, you're driving a vehicle, so why separate it like that?

I think the focus has shifted a little from the original point - I don't want to get into an argument about GT's 20 year old slogan. On your point, I don't agree entirely, to me the term 'racing' implies competition, which isn't required to enjoy driving. I'm not going to say racing isn't a focus in the game or GT in general, but it doesn't have to be the primary focus of a player. I love GT and have always loved GT for the cars, I'm much less fussed about the scenario in which we get to enjoy the cars (hence I time trial a lot, I don't mind the Rally implementation and I quite enjoy the drifting). It's a relevant distinction because the players whose criteria for enjoying the game doesn't revolve around a high quality competitive experience aren't going to care as much if it's not well implemented - which is essentially my original point to Pzr... it's not a case of PD needlessly defending PD, it's a case of some people not really caring about the state of the AI because they can still get what they want from the game. Given what the stats say about the number of people enjoying sport mode, I'd suggest there's a lot of people that don't care about high quality competition.

I’m only conflating them because this a “real driving simulator” that happens to be almost entirely focused around racing,....

Well, as I've just said above, that doesn't make it the primary concern of any given player. I enjoy driving cars in GT, I'm less bothered about racing.

.... so much so that it has official association with the FIA. That FIA association is because of racing, node a nod to the FIAs road safety program (if it was, I’d be making the same arguement, because the AI in GT wouldn’t even be a realistic representation of safe road driving...GTA does a better job of that )

Maybe the FIA wants to get peole off the roads and the track entirely and infront of a console instead, thereby reducing the number of fatalities that way! 💡

 

[ImaRobot]

I think the focus has shifted a little from the original point - I don't want to get into an argument about GT's 20 year old slogan. On your point, I don't agree entirely, to me the term 'racing' implies competition, which isn't required to enjoy driving. I'm not going to say racing isn't a focus in the game or GT in general, but it doesn't have to be the primary focus of a player.

Whether the focus shifted or not, I really dont think there would be a difference if we consider Driving and Racing the same thing here, considering the scope of any of the games. It was always about racing, providing a track day experience, whether we're talking about GTS or GT6. I'd consider anything you do in a vehicle driving, whether you're racing or not, to be honest. The way see it, "Driving" should cover anything while in a vehicle, and "Racing" should be included in that.

I do agree that it doesn't have to be the primary focus of the player, but I just think the words can be interchangeable here.

I love GT and have always loved GT for the cars, I'm much less fussed about the scenario in which we get to enjoy the cars (hence I time trial a lot, I don't mind the Rally implementation and I quite enjoy the drifting).

Same here. My main draw from these types of games are always photomode first for some reason, I'm weird.

It's a relevant distinction because the players whose criteria for enjoying the game doesn't revolve around a high quality competitive experience aren't going to care as much if it's not well implemented - which is essentially my original point to Pzr.

Like I mentioned above, I don't really think there needs to be that distinction, regardless of how you enjoy the game. Either way, I'm for the notion that if things are going to be implemented, than the same amount of effort should go into other aspects of the game as well.

 

[twitcher]

Maybe the FIA wants to get peole off the roads and the track entirely and infront of a console instead, thereby reducing the number of fatalities that way! 💡

And so they can collect meta data on driving, that they then use to help write algorithms for the RoboRace, which will eventually replace humans racing, and in the long run, lead to the creation of Skynet (competitive AI, ya nothing can go wrong there )

 

[WheelmanSteve]

The AI is the biggest failure of this game. If you want to understand why some drivers in Sport Mode are so willing to resort to the bash-to-pass method, look no further than what we've all learned in YEARS of racing PD's AI. Brake checks, choppy throttle control, rubber banding, and rabbit cars that are OP for the event. Maybe we shouldn't even dignify them with the "AI" designator- they are really just moving, path-following obstacles. Still, fix the chase-the-rabbit dynamics and give the option to qualify, and I'll be happier.