How in the Frank Bruno did Forza III do it?

[Devedander]

Things are wrong. Things are messed up. Things are broken. And it's many things. And it's every single game. And it's nothing like what's wrong with GT5.

I would like to point out (in grand GTP fashion) that you cannot know that as GT5 is not out yet.

That's one huge flaw I see going on constantly is that GT5 is compared to other games all the time.

If it's a positive for GT, then GT is viewed in the best possible light and assumed to be perfect despite the fact we seem to get dissapointing news at every update.

If it's negative for GT it's pointed out GT isn't even out yet and we should just shut up and not complain until it is to make it fair.

A year ago F3 was laughed at for only have 400 some odd cars and having some cockpits that were pretty ugly when GT5 has 1000 cars all with stunning cockpits and higher poly/better car models to boot!

Here a year later we suddenly know that not to be so true anymore... how does the forum keep perpetually assuming GT5 will be this and that while simultaneously reminding us we have to wait for GT5 to come out before making judgements?

 

[RedSuinit]

Your point being? Whether PD decided to go with quality or quantity doesn't even matter, does it? Because, whatever they intended to do, the results are what they are and I can't plug good intentions into my console and play them.

I guess it doesn't matter to everyone, but it does to me.

Ok. So PD had less manpower, but even if you rule the amount of time they had to spend on GTSP out, they had way more time to develop GT5 than T10 had to develop Forza 3. Both were restricted, just in different ways. Oh, and besides, with 80 Million $, which is a tad bit more with what went into Forza, wouldn't you say that it's been PD's fault for not making something happen with that kind of money? PD might have not gotten everything they asked for, but budget wise, they still got more than T10.
So, they had more time and more money to spend on their game. Still, you're acting like they had it super rough compared to T10... I don't have to understand that, do I?

I wasn't saying that they had it super rough compare to Turn10, I didn't want to give that impression at all.

I don't need to wait that long. I will love the game. I'm 105% certain of that. And I'm 95% certain I'll like it better than Forza 3, but that's beside the point.

👍 Then good for you.

Ok, first of, I was picking up on the analogy another user made. Second, name a few of those MAJOR shortcomings. There are quite a few limitations on behalf of the Xbox's hardware, I'm the first person to give you that. That's where most of the 'physics vs. graphics' issues stem from. What's there aside from that? and I mean something MAJOR, so don't give me that stuff about bad lighting when using the livery editor.

By major, I mean the fact that they have physics issues. Ask anyone who has played Forza 3 extensively and they will tell you that there are physics exploits that they can and do use in order to get faster times. The online system has some serious performance issues, and there are plenty of exploits you can use online in order to help improve your chances to win. Those are just two examples.

Again, you can't just ignore the fact that the hardware Forza is running on is more restricting in terms of raw power than the PS3. And yeah, the standard cars are going to look quite decent. They're going to be about on par with most, for example, Forza's models I'd think, but in Forza, you've got cockpits on every car. Basically, Forza has less cars but all of them are quite close to the same standard of quality. Wheras GT has the quality one and the quantity ones. Instead of mixing it up between all cars, it just devides them.

I don't see how the hardware changes the fact that you can tell that they went for quantity over quality.

The double standard I was reffereing to wasn't the fact that he likes one company better than the other one, but that he's being biased towards the final products because of his preferance.

Isn't that a part of personal opinion? You like the way that one company does their business more than another company so you like, and purchase the products of the company you like. Isn't that opinion?

PD went for quality, damn right. And added quantity afterwards to inflate the number of cars so they could put a '1000 cars inside' sticker on GT5.

True.

First of, PD wasn't given the the date of November 2nd, 2010 at first. Remember that the game was delayed quite a bit? Consider the massive time frame and the budget they had available and think about why they even had to restrict themselves, or were restricted by Sony, whichever you prefer, if Forza is what it is with less time and less budget.

Well Forza 3 had about 3 years of development time. So when you consider the fact that PD produced GT PSP at the same time (just a guess but I wouldn't be surprised if that ate away ~ 1.5 years of dev time from GT5) you're comparing 3 years of dev time to 3.5... Not THAT big of a difference.

Personally, I thiink I'm going to like GT5's aproach better. That's why I signed up on GTP in the first place. The only reason I'm even arguing with you is the same reason why I'm arguing with Forza fanboys who're bashing GT on the Forza forums.

I wasn't arguing. Simply presenting information in a reasonable and well thought out fashion. It's too bad you think you have to argue, because we could have a very intelligent discussion if we both approach it in the right way.

I dislike either game being looked down upon just because someone feels they had to commit their life to one of the two franchises and thus, hate the other with a passion.

I dislike Forza because it doesn't feel polished, and it feels like Turn10 cut corners. That's all. Not because I have some insane dedication to GT.

 

[Luminis]

By major, I mean the fact that they have physics issues. Ask anyone who has played Forza 3 extensively and they will tell you that there are physics exploits that they can and do use in order to get faster times. The online system has some serious performance issues, and there are plenty of exploits you can use online in order to help improve your chances to win. Those are just two examples.

Well, some of the physic issues that I'm aware of are the overall amount of grip, which is a bit to much, the fact that downforce seems to be created without drag on some cars and from what I can tell and the ever so popular AWD 'glitch', which causes seems to create additional traction not only while accalerating, but at any given time. I think it highly depends on what you consider to be major and what not, though.

I won't commend on the performance of Forza's online, though, because my internet connection is pretty crappy anyways...

I don't see how the hardware changes the fact that you can tell that they went for quantity over quality.

Because I think that alot of what's seen to be Turn10's decision is actually due to some of the hardware's limitations. They already had to limit the graphics and the amount of cars on the track because the Xbox couldn't have handled the physics engine otherwise. Of course, it could've been better if they had more time to polish it further, but I do think that at least some of the aforementioned flaws with the physics engine can be attributed to this.

Isn't that a part of personal opinion? You like the way that one company does their business more than another company so you like, and purchase the products of the company you like. Isn't that opinion?

Of course it is. I'll resort to an analogy on this one, I guess...

Let's say Guy A is willing to give you, just for example, an iPhone for 75 bucks. Guy two is offering you the very same iPhone for the very same 75 bucks. If you now claim Guy A to be giving you a better offer just because you happen to like him more, that's applying double standards.

And that's what the point I was getting at, or at least what it seemed to me: Both games have it's flaws, yet one game is ripped apart for having flaws and one isn't.

Well Forza 3 had about 3 years of development time. So when you consider the fact that PD produced GT PSP at the same time (just a guess but I wouldn't be surprised if that ate away ~ 1.5 years of dev time from GT5) you're comparing 3 years of dev time to 3.5... Not THAT big of a difference.

Forza 2 has been releas in May 2007. Forza 3 in October 2009, that's less than two and a half years. And I doubt the work on GT5 has been put on hold completely. But that at least one more year, which I think is a considerable amount of additional time.

I wasn't arguing. Simply presenting information in a reasonable and well thought out fashion. It's too bad you think you have to argue, because we could have a very intelligent discussion if we both approach it in the right way.

Argueing might have been the wrong word to use here. I kinda have a tendency to mix the words 'argueing' and 'discussing' up, lol. Sorry, my bad. I think my english is still somewhat lacking, I guess...

I dislike Forza because it doesn't feel polished, and it feels like Turn10 cut corners. That's all. Not because I have some insane dedication to GT.

I guess I don't mind that feeling all that much, but it certainly is there, you're right about that. But that might be due to the fact that I initially got Forza as a temporary replacement for Gran Turismo and, thus, didn't have any major expactations.

 

[Devedander]

Let's say Guy A is willing to give you, just for example, an iPhone for 75 bucks. Guy two is offering you the very same iPhone for the very same 75 bucks. If you now claim Guy A to be giving you a better offer just because you happen to like him more, that's applying double standards.

How about this:

Guy A wants to sell you a Nokia cell phone but the screen doesn't have a backlight. Guy B wants to sell you a Nokia cell phone but the bottom two rows of buttons don't work.

If you say "Guy A is a sheister and obviously try to rip people off" but then say "Guy B is a solid businessman and obviously that's all he can get so it's fair he tries to sell what he can get, we should be happy he can get anything for us becuase it's still a good brand cell phone and besides I just program all my friends into the top 6 speed dials anyway so it's no big deal" then there is your double standard a little more close to the current point.

Argueing might have been the wrong word to use here.

I believe the word you were looking for is "debate".

 

[Luminis]

How about this:

Guy A wants to sell you a Nokia cell phone but the screen doesn't have a backlight. Guy B wants to sell you a Nokia cell phone but the bottom two rows of buttons don't work.

If you say "Guy A is a sheister and obviously try to rip people off" but then say "Guy B is a solid businessman and obviously that's all he can get so it's fair he tries to sell what he can get, we should be happy he can get anything for us becuase it's still a good brand cell phone and besides I just program all my friends into the top 6 speed dials anyway so it's no big deal" then there is your double standard a little more close to the current point.

Ok, that's a lot better then what I came up with It gets the point I was trying to make across perfectly.

I believe the word you were looking for is "debate".

Debating would be pretty accurate in this case. Thanks 👍

 

[RedSuinit]

How about this:

Guy A wants to sell you a Nokia cell phone but the screen doesn't have a backlight. Guy B wants to sell you a Nokia cell phone but the bottom two rows of buttons don't work.

If you say "Guy A is a sheister and obviously try to rip people off" but then say "Guy B is a solid businessman and obviously that's all he can get so it's fair he tries to sell what he can get, we should be happy he can get anything for us becuase it's still a good brand cell phone and besides I just program all my friends into the top 6 speed dials anyway so it's no big deal" then there is your double standard a little more close to the current point.

I believe the word you were looking for is "debate".

A much better example. At that point it becomes a matter of opinion as to which is the lesser of two evils, the broken back-light, or the messed up buttons. I guess I am a tainted view on this subject because I don't see Turn10 as bad business men, just different than PD. I personally like PD's decision more than I like Turn10's, but that doesn't make them evil, lol. I can see the point that Luminis is trying to make though.

Debate is a much better word.

 

[Luminis]

Wow, it's actually pretty nice to come to a somewhat friendly conclusion in an internet based debate. It's been a while since I've experienced ssomething like that.

But I guess it's just showing that people who are into sim racing just can't be bad guys 👍

 

[Devedander]

Wow, it's actually pretty nice to come to a somewhat friendly conclusion in an internet based debate. It's been a while since I've experienced ssomething like that.

But I guess it's just showing that people who are into sim racing just can't be bad guys 👍

Conclusion: You are a prick and your mother is unnatractive.


EDIT for forgotten

 

[JDMKING13]

Wow, it's actually pretty nice to come to a somewhat friendly conclusion in an internet based debate. It's been a while since I've experienced ssomething like that.

But I guess it's just showing that people who are into sim racing just can't be bad guys 👍

I love it!! Mature people, having mature debate, coming to a muture conclusion/understanding. 👍

 

[LaBounti]

Turn 10 already had a stable of cars from Forza 2. PD did not have a current gen game to port to the next. If anything they have as many Newly modeled cars as FM3 has, not including DLC .. Turn10's method of car modeling seems faster but less accurate.. I saw the video of how they do it.

So 200 Full cars VS 200 New cars in FM3 and 200 some FM2 cars... Thats how they did it. i'm not even going to count the Standard cars becasue of one reason.

PD is Japanese, they may not understand what "Standard" means........ a Standard is the norm, whats expected. Thats the truth, the truth is Premium cars are Standard compared to FM3 that only has one "Standard". PD is telling us their standards are lower than everyone elses . But they have to market the underachiever cars as standard. Too much detail PD, take it down a notch, I'd be happy with 400 Premium cars as Standard.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Wow, it's actually pretty nice to come to a somewhat friendly conclusion in an internet based debate. It's been a while since I've experienced ssomething like that.

But I guess it's just showing that people who are into sim racing just can't be bad guys 👍

No, it has nothing to do with that.

It has more to do with the fact the long cold night is finally passing and the eastern sky is starting to lighten up ever so slightly. Truely hope is on the horizon.

Something like that.

 

[RedSuinit]

Conclusion: You are a prick and your mother is unnatractive.

What is the point of this? Seriously Devedander?

 

[Devedander]

What is the point of this? Seriously Devedander?

It was a joke, forgot the

Response to a mature and pleasant conclusion on the internet... we can't let that happen!

 

[RedSuinit]

It was a joke, forgot the

Response to a mature and pleasant conclusion on the internet... we can't let that happen!

Ok, good to get that cleared up. 👍

 

[Devedander]

Turn 10 already had a stable of cars from Forza 2. PD did not have a current gen game to port to the next. If anything they have as many Newly modeled cars as FM3 has, not including DLC .. Turn10's method of car modeling seems faster but less accurate.. I saw the video of how they do it.

In all fairness T10 still had to come up with the high res models for the showroom and photomode in FM3 so actually they did have to model all the cars again.

 

[RedSuinit]

In all fairness T10 still had to come up with the high res models for the showroom and photomode in FM3 so actually they did have to model all the cars again.

It will be interesting to see what the "standard" models will look like in photomode for GT5

 

[Devedander]

It will be interesting to see what the "standard" models will look like in photomode for GT5

I think they will look the same but with postprocessing... I think GT is supposed to use the same models for in game vs photomode no?

 

[RedSuinit]

I think they will look the same but with postprocessing... I think GT is supposed to use the same models for in game vs photomode no?

Does it use the same models as in game? I don't know the specifics of photo-mode, I never really used it in GT4.

 

[Devedander]

Does it use the same models as in game? I don't know the specifics of photo-mode, I never really used it in GT4.

I think in GT4 they acutally used better models for photo mode... but since the FM3 fiasco everyone has been touting that GT5 will have the same models in race and photomode... then again, I guess that's all speculation.

 

[LaBounti]

In all fairness T10 still had to come up with the high res models for the showroom and photomode in FM3 so actually they did have to model all the cars again.

Then explain the inconsistencies with the 997 bodies, the Lexus IS350 and IS-F. They did not "re model" any of them. They said it themselves that they "upped the res" on the FM2 models in a video from E3 last year.

Showroom/Photomode models are irrelevant when the FM2 ones still stand out as less impressive(not by much).

 

[RedSuinit]

I think in GT4 they acutally used better models for photo mode... but since the FM3 fiasco everyone has been touting that GT5 will have the same models in race and photomode... then again, I guess that's all speculation.

If that is true, then I would suspect that they would use those "better models" for GT5 gameplay. Personally I believe that PD has a huge stash of excellent models in high resolutions, that the downscaled for GT4, and will use the original models (possibly downscaled, who knows they might even be too high res for GT5) for GT5, just what I think. Those models in the "standard cars" video just look too good to be upscaled ports of the actual GT4 models that were used in game.

 

[Devedander]

Then explain the inconsistencies with the 997 bodies, the Lexus IS350 and IS-F. They did not "re model" any of them. They said it themselves that they "upped the res" on the FM2 models in a video from E3 last year.

You'll have to fill me in on that... what was the inconsistency (I just don't remember).

And those showroom cars look pretty darn good... if they can get FM2 cars to look like that by just "upping the res" then I don't get why PD can't do the same for the GT4 originals.

 

[Seismica]

If that is true, then I would suspect that they would use those "better models" for GT5 gameplay. Personally I believe that PD has a huge stash of excellent models in high resolutions, that the downscaled for GT4, and will use the original models (possibly downscaled, who knows they might even be too high res for GT5) for GT5, just what I think. Those models in the "standard cars" video just look too good to be upscaled ports of the actual GT4 models that were used in game.

Yeah the standard cars are derived from the same models that the GT4 cars were derived from. But they are not derived from the GT4 models themselves, otherwise they would look a lot worse than they actually are.

I think that regardless of whether people think it is 'cheating' to use higher poly models for photomode and replay, I think if they have those higher poly models available they should just go right ahead and do it, because the replays and photos are supposed to look good.

Obviously the cars still look excellend ingame, I think if people noticed the difference, they would understand why they have done that.

 

[JDMKING13]

Yeah the standard cars are derived from the same models that the GT4 cars were derived from. But they are not derived from the GT4 models themselves, otherwise they would look a lot worse than they actually are.

I think that regardless of whether people think it is 'cheating' to use higher poly models for photomode and replay, I think if they have those higher poly models available they should just go right ahead and do it, because the replays and photos are supposed to look good.

Obviously the cars still look excellend ingame, I think if people noticed the difference, they would understand why they have done that.

Not only that bro the cars will feature GT5 physics damage, and maybe a customization system? I still play GT4 faithfully and this GT standard car mode is a upgraded better version of GT4! If you ask me i say we got two games in 1 👍

 

[LaBounti]

You'll have to fill me in on that... what was the inconsistency (I just don't remember).

And those showroom cars look pretty darn good... if they can get FM2 cars to look like that by just "upping the res" then I don't get why PD can't do the same for the GT4 originals.

oh the roof lines, "A" pillars, headlight positions, and the kicker the fuel cap(most noticeable) are slightly different sizes or misshapen, 997 bodies all have the same fuel cap size and A-C pillar shapes in the real world. The IS350 has noticeable differences in headlights position and shape in the roof line from the IS-F. I noticed right away there are 3 different bodies shapes for the 997.

I think PD has held on to these um.... GTHD models for a long time. Not sure what to do with them. its possible the FM2 cars were already photomode ready, like they knew there would be a FM3 2 years later. We can only believe what they tel us.... its possible to increase the polygons of raw source material and apply the same textures.

 

[SavageEvil]

You'll have to fill me in on that... what was the inconsistency (I just don't remember).

And those showroom cars look pretty darn good... if they can get FM2 cars to look like that by just "upping the res" then I don't get why PD can't do the same for the GT4 originals.

FM2 and FM3 are built using the same engine, I don't recall them having to rebuild the engine to run FM3 from scratch. So obviously they can just port cars over without much of a problem. PD have built an all new graphics engine started with GTHD, then transitioned in GT5P. They even build a deformation engine on top of that. FM2 had several inconsistencies in cars being modeled wrong, the Nissan R32 was modeled incorrectly as was the R390 GT1 #23. My 360 is being repaired right now, I'll check back to see if they were corrected in FM3 as I still have both games. In FM3 the Toyota GT1 #3 is modeled incorrectly as well...that much I know off the top of my head. This is what happens when you have to rush something that obviously needs a lot of time to check and double check over again.

 

[Devedander]

oh the roof lines, "A" pillars, headlight positions, and the kicker the fuel cap(most noticeable) are slightly different sizes or misshapen, 997 bodies all have the same fuel cap size and A-C pillar shapes in the real world. The IS350 has noticeable differences in headlights position and shape in the roof line from the IS-F. I noticed right away there are 3 different bodies shapes for the 997.

I think PD has held on to these um.... GTHD models for a long time. Not sure what to do with them. its possible the FM2 cars were already photomode ready, like they knew there would be a FM3 2 years later. We can only believe what they tel us.... its possible to increase the polygons of raw source material and apply the same textures.

Well if they made thse car models back in FM2 and had them ready to just dump into FM3 doesn't that make FM2 dev even more incredible? I mean then they cranked out FM2 AND modeled those high res models years ago when arguably the computers they had to do all that work on were less powerful and slower than what we have today?

And maybe they did use the same base info that already existed to make those higher quality photoroom models off of in FM3 but then that brings on the question, why can't PD get the same results and do the same thing?

This is what happens when you have to rush something that obviously needs a lot of time to check and double check over again.

The alternative being you have a 20% finished product and just release that?

 

[SavageEvil]

Well if they made thse car models back in FM2 and had them ready to just dump into FM3 doesn't that make FM2 dev even more incredible? I mean then they cranked out FM2 AND modeled those high res models years ago when arguably the computers they had to do all that work on were less powerful and slower than what we have today?

And maybe they did use the same base info that already existed to make those higher quality photoroom models off of in FM3 but then that brings on the question, why can't PD get the same results and do the same thing?



The alternative being you have a 20% finished product and just release that?

You're really trying to be insinuating are you not? Fm2 and 3 are both built on the 360 hardware, porting things over shouldn't be a problem. What are you going on about that makes it incredible that they used almost the same models they had in FM2? What crap are you talking? It's in the dev's best interest to take as detailed information as possible the first time around, that way you won't have to redo things when the hardware catches up to their old LOD limitation. What crap are you talking about with hardware they were using to build the game being less powerful? I don't get what you are talking about here at all.

You are basically talking as if PD wasted time and could only get 200+ cars ready for GT5 and Turn10 with less time got 400+ cars. If this was just about cars alone then you'd have an argument, but it's far from that. More and more things are being listed as confirmed, not sure about you but 200+ cars, real time damage deformation, day to night transitions(real time perhaps), new lighting effects for night time illumination, max 16 cars fields, up to date real courses, painstakingly detailed cars(200 or so), brand new physics engine, integration of NASCAR and it's rules, WRC, rumored go carts, rumored track editor...not to mention a new and integrated online mode, rumored chat as well. Hey btw while they were building this game they had to also stop and build GT PSP...not to shabby.

As much as I wanted all premium cars in GT5, it won't happen, but if all the other mentioned things are in along with 800+ standard cars, I would be pretty happy with what they have accomplished. I'm happy with FM 3, but the longer I played it the more of GT I missed and it's own charms. FM3 is a worthy game, fun and all around great game. Not without it's flaws as are all games, but FM3 is out and therefore it's not going to change what I think of the finished product as it's a done deal. GT5 still has a few months to polish up and be ready for retail. I don't expect much new to be added at all, but I am interested in what else this game might have that we do not know about. Strange how hearing of 800 cars that aren't premium throws so many into a frenzy.

20% finished product according to whose numbers? Not sure but you definitely are not on the list of individuals who are writing checks to PD. While PD never stated that the game would have every car detailed to the exact same specification, just because 20% of the cars are like that, doesn't mean the other 80% aren't part of the finished product. If they were really lazy, they wouldn't even implement damage on that 80%. They could cut the 80% and then sell it to us as DLC.

Why can't PD do the same thing and get the same results? Check the list of confirmed things within GT5 and also the end product, then come back and ask that question. Get the facts about things before assuming that someone is taking the easy way around in order to get your hard earned money.

 

[JDMKING13]

Well if they made thse car models back in FM2 and had them ready to just dump into FM3 doesn't that make FM2 dev even more incredible? I mean then they cranked out FM2 AND modeled those high res models years ago when arguably the computers they had to do all that work on were less powerful and slower than what we have today?

And maybe they did use the same base info that already existed to make those higher quality photoroom models off of in FM3 but then that brings on the question, why can't PD get the same results and do the same thing?



The alternative being you have a 20% finished product and just release that?

👎

 

[Devedander]

You're really trying to be insinuating are you not?

I do not think that means what you think it means.

Fm2 and 3 are both built on the 360 hardware, porting things over shouldn't be a problem. What are you going on about that makes it incredible that they used almost the same models they had in FM2?

Context... you should try it.

There is an argument that indeed T10 had to model all the cars in FM3 becuase the showroom cars are high quality. They are not just imports of FM2 cars (although it's argued by many the in game cars are just FM2 imports).

If that is true, then T10 really did model 400+ cars in a few years.

Then there is the argument that T10 actually had the high res ones ready in FM2 but just didn't use them yet, making it an easy job to import them to FM3, basically arguing that T10 then didn't really model 400 cars in high quality in a couple of years...

But that is actually MORE impressive because that means T10 modeled them back in FM2 when it was arguably at least as hard or harder.

So you choose when you want to believe it happened, but the truth of the matter is that somewhere there T10 modeled all those cars in high detail for the showroom part of FM3.

And now you look at it... PD had all those cars from GT4 already available... and again it's still a bit in the air but it looks very much like they basically imported those cars into GT5 for the standards.

So no matter how you look at it, T10 did crank out a large number of high quality car models in a comparatively short period of time.

I am not taking about any other dev aspects, quality of gameplay etc, just that one point here.

20% finished product according to whose numbers? Not sure but you definitely are not on the list of individuals who are writing checks to PD.

Last I checked, as a consumer I AM the one writing the check... All of us consumers are who pays their paychecks and lines their pockets. Maybe you have forgotten this is a business transaction we are talking about here... this isn't my buddy doing me a favor, this is a product/sales situation and the money ultimately comes from all of us.