Is camber fixed? Discuss it here.

[Stotty]

OH MY GOD - have you really just asked that!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?




Try googling something called "traction", you obviously not heard of it!!!!!

How does reducing grip increase traction?

This part of your post seems pretty empty, game keeps static camber stable on all heights, and from higher height there is more dynamic camber on cornering.
In real life rising car height or lowering you have to make changes to your suspension to keep your camber values, but we are on game where these adjustments come automatically when you alter car height.
When you get this you understand why high front low rear works on those tunes.

If you're trying to say that 'my' tunes don't need camber because I run high front/low rear, then you are incorrect... I've run many different cars with varying ride heights and camber reduces grip whatever I set the ride height at.

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

So is thinking that what works for the fastest guys in the game is best for everyone, including those who use 'X' and [] with 100% throttle & brake, with all cars, especially high PP and low(er) grip tyres

Bam, spot on. 👍 Although I may not agree with you on a lot of things you may say, I completely agree with you on this. It really pisses me off when the top running guys come into these threads throwing their weight around trying to impress upon people what they say as fact. Just because they may regularly finish in the top 10 or so, doesn't mean they are right all the time. Really get tired of these people with their holier-than-thou attitude thinking what they say is right just because of their skill level. That is why I don't post what I may find in any testing I do because every time I do, along comes a highly skilled driver, or alien if you will, to tell me I'm wrong and that I don't know what I'm talking about. They only have one way of looking at things, theirs, and whoever disagrees with them is wrong. Sorry, I just had to get that off my chest.

 

[OdeFinn]

If you're trying to say that 'my' tunes don't need camber because I run high front/low rear, then you are incorrect... I've run many different cars with varying ride heights and camber reduces grip whatever I set the ride height at.

When using static camber values your suspension had to be tuned for it.
You have found a way to use camber on cornering by rising your car height and so allowing dynamic camber values to rise.

 

[Stotty]

Bam, spot on. 👍 Although I may not agree with you on a lot of things you may say, I completely agree with you on this. It really pisses me off when the top running guys come into these threads throwing their weight around trying to impress upon people what they say as fact. Just because they may regularly finish in the top 10 or so, doesn't mean they are right all the time. Really get tired of these people with their holier-than-thou attitude thinking what they say is right just because of their skill level. That is why I don't post what I may find in any testing I do because every time I do, along comes a highly skilled driver, or alien if you will, to tell me I'm wrong and that I don't know what I'm talking about. They only have one way of looking at things, theirs, and whoever disagrees with them is wrong. Sorry, I just had to get that off my chest.

If you agree with him, perhaps you'd like to explain how reducing grip somehow increases traction then?

When using static camber values your suspension had to be tuned for it.
You have found a way to use camber on cornering by rising your car height and so allowing dynamic camber values to rise.

What part of 'camber reduces grip irrespective of ride height' do you not understand?

 

[Highlandor]

Bam, spot on. 👍 Although I may not agree with you on a lot of things you may say, I completely agree with you on this. It really pisses me off when the top running guys come into these threads throwing their weight around trying to impress upon people what they say as fact. Just because they may regularly finish in the top 10 or so, doesn't mean they are right all the time. Really get tired of these people with their holier-than-thou attitude thinking what they say is right just because of their skill level. That is why I don't post what I may find in any testing I do because every time I do, along comes a highly skilled driver, or alien if you will, to tell me I'm wrong and that I don't know what I'm talking about. They only have one way of looking at things, theirs, and whoever disagrees with them is wrong. Sorry, I just had to get that off my chest.

Yes, very true... 👍

For the record Cargo, I've never had an issue with you.. Still not sure why my 'other' post upset you, like I said then - no offence was ever intended

 

[OdeFinn]

What part of 'camber reduces grip irrespective of ride height' do you not understand?

And what part you missed how dynamic camber will rise when car height rises?
You know difference of dynamic and static camber, yes?

 

[Stotty]

And what part you missed how dynamic camber will rise when car height rises?
You know difference of dynamic and static camber, yes?

Yes, I understand how real suspension works, but I'm not sure what that has to do with GT6.

If GT6 was anything like real life, real life suspension settings would make a car faster... we'd be running ~2-3* of front and ~1-2* rear camber, with low ride heights and stiff springs & dampers to get the fastest lap times. But if you do this in the game you end up with a slow car, not a fast one.

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

Yes, very true... 👍

For the record Cargo, I've never had an issue with you.. Still not sure why my 'other' post upset you, like I said then - no offence was ever intended

I don't have a problem with you either. I was just having a bad day and your post just kind of hit me the wrong way, that's all. We're all good. 👍

@Stotty There is no use explaining things to you because you are so set in your way of thinking, you quickly dismiss what I say. Its happened in the past so I'm not even going to try again. Look, you are a better driver than I, that is fact. But, just because you are more skilled than I am, doesn't mean you are smarter than me when it comes to tuning. And its not just you. It seems the majority of the top drivers also think this way. You're a top driver because of your skill set, the same reason why I'm NOT a top 10 driver. It has nothing to do with tuning knowledge. The sooner some of you guys realize that, the better.

And, just for the record, I have no problem getting some amount of camber to work for me and be advantageous in my lap times. I use camber on all my personal tunes. I tend not to use camber on tunes I publish because people quickly take out the camber anyway. Why? Because people like you have them brainwashed with the idea that camber is bad and that it doesn't work at all. Well, guess what? It does work, you just have to tune for it. Granted, it still doesn't work like it should, in my opinion, but I have found using small amounts can be beneficial to the handling and in lap times in some cases. It sure doesn't hurt things like you suggest. I'll wait until I'm in the top 10 to explain things to you however, maybe then you'll listen to me.

 

[OdeFinn]

Yes, I understand how real suspension works, but I'm not sure what that has to do with GT6.

Okey, can you then explain me the reason why people tune front high and rear low? Just benefits as its faster that way is not an answer, tell me how it helps car handling?

 

[Johnnypenso]

Score so far:

Jaws flapping - 99
Tunes - 1
Results to date - camber still not working properly based on one tester.

 

[Ali]

@Stotty There is no use explaining things to you because you are so set in your way of thinking, you quickly dismiss what I say.

And those saying that camber works ignore everyone who says otherwise

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Even with camber and toe set at real life spec, most of my replica often way quicker than real life counterpart ( tires usually have been in the grip range of real life tire ), so zero camber would make it even more unrealistic in terms of cornering grip The cars definitely drive more realistic with camber and toe based on real life settings. Never use ride height exploit to fix a car handling, I only use it to replicate visual ride height of the real car. So far, GT6 provides good enough driving experience for replica cars.

 

[Stotty]

@Stotty There is no use explaining things to you because you are so set in your way of thinking, you quickly dismiss what I say. Its happened in the past so I'm not even going to try again. Look, you are a better driver than I, that is fact. But, just because you are more skilled than I am, doesn't mean you are smarter than me when it comes to tuning. And its not just you. It seems the majority of the top drivers also think this way. You're a top driver because of your skill set, the same reason why I'm NOT a top 10 driver. It has nothing to do with tuning knowledge. The sooner some of you guys realize that, the better.

And, just for the record, I have no problem getting some amount of camber to work for me and be advantageous in my lap times. I use camber on all my personal tunes. I tend not to use camber on tunes I publish because people quickly take out the camber anyway. Why? Because people like you have them brainwashed with the idea that camber is bad and that it doesn't work at all. Well, guess what? It does work, you just have to tune for it. Granted, it still doesn't work like it should, in my opinion, but I have found using small amounts can be beneficial to the handling and in lap times in some cases. It sure doesn't hurt things like you suggest. I'll wait until I'm in the top 10 to explain things to you however, maybe then you'll listen to me.

I don't think asking how reducing grip can increase traction is an unrealistic question to ask given @Highlandor posted that and you 'agreed with everything he said'... and I'm still interested to hear the theory on how this can be true.

It's statements like that, that immediately make me question if the person actually has any idea what they are talking about. Nothing to do with how fast anyone is, just a simple matter of if they really understand the GT6 physics model and how to get the best out of it.

As for I run fast laps because I'm a good driver... true but only to a certain extent. 1st time I ever 'spoke' to Banditkarter was to reply to a post of his complaining that he was 3s behind the top time in a Seasonal (Corvette at Deep Forest reverse back in GT5). I said to him that a tune wouldn't find him 3s and sent him my tune... he promptly went 3s faster

There's a reason the 'faster' guys tune in a similar way - because it makes cars run fast lap times. And most 'slower' drivers could easily manage a top time tune with a few adjustments to ride height, brake balance and LSD accel/decl.

Score so far:

Jaws flapping - 99
Tunes - 1
Results to date - camber still not working properly based on one tester.

PMSL

Okey, can you then explain me the reason why people tune front high and rear low? Just benefits as its faster that way is not an answer, tell me how it helps car handling?

In GT6 (and opposite to real life) the higher the front ride height relative to the rear, the more rotation (less understeer) a car has.

This is true for;

1. Entry phase, when you're trail braking heavily and the front suspension is fully compressed
2. Mid corner, when you're coasting (neither braking or accelerating) and the front suspension is at a relatively neutral height
3. Exit phase, when the front suspension is unloading

 

[Stotty]

Double post.

 

[Highlandor]

I don't think asking how reducing grip can increase traction is an unrealistic question to ask given @Highlandor posted that and you 'agreed with everything he said'... and I'm still interested to hear the theory on how this can be true.

It's statements like that, that immediately make me question if the person actually has any idea what they are talking about. Nothing to do with how fast anyone is, just a simple matter of if they really understand the GT6 physics model and how to get the best out of it.

As for I run fast laps because I'm a good driver... true but only to a certain extent. 1st time I ever 'spoke' to Banditkarter was to reply to a post of his complaining that he was 3s behind the top time in a Seasonal (Corvette at Deep Forest reverse back in GT5). I said to him that a tune wouldn't find him 3s and sent him my tune... he promptly went 3s faster

There's a reason the 'faster' guys tune in a similar way - because it makes cars run fast lap times. And most 'slower' drivers could easily manage a top time tune with a few adjustments to ride height, brake balance and LSD accel/decl.



PMSL



In GT6 (and opposite to real life) the higher the front ride height relative to the rear, the more rotation (less understeer) a car has.

This is true for;

1. Entry phase, when you're trail braking heavily and the front suspension is fully compressed
2. Mid corner, when you're coasting (neither braking or accelerating) and the front suspension is at a relatively neutral height
3. Exit phase, when the front suspension is unloading

Whats the point in explaining anything to you Stotty, you see in a one dimensional view and anything outside that just gets greeted with contempt?

 

[super_gt]

Twin Ring Motegi Oval
Mazda Roadster RS(NC)'07

No oil change,no AIDS no ABS
Stock except toe angle front 0.00 rear 0.00 and six speed gearbox.
Both corners flat out(full throttle) in sixth gear.
Front sports hard rear sports hard tires.

Camber front 0.0 rear 0.0
44.905 seconds

Camber front 1.0 rear 0.0
44.967 seconds

Camber front 2.0 rear 0.0
45.061 seconds

Camber front 1.0 rear 0.5
44.978 seconds

Camber front 0.0 rear 0.00
Front sports medium rear sports hard tires
44.560 seconds

DFGT user
This test is made offline

 

[OdeFinn]

n GT6 (and opposite to real life) the higher the front ride height relative to the rear, the more rotation (less understeer) a car has.

This is true for;

1. Entry phase, when you're trail braking heavily and the front suspension is fully compressed
2. Mid corner, when you're coasting (neither braking or accelerating) and the front suspension is at a relatively neutral height
3. Exit phase, when the front suspension is unloading

1. And what this fully compressed suspension helps, or why it helps? What are mechanical benefits of this?
2. Is neutral same as height were it was set?
Why this helps you?
3. In other words rear is squatting, and what are benefits of this?

1a) compressed suspension makes dynamic camber higher, more negative camber on outer side. Generated toe in stabilizes straight line braking.
2a) slightly compressed, slight dynamic camber values, starting point high and inner wheel gets slight positive camber.
3a) rear squats, front rises, front returns to static camber value, 0-camber on your case, so no static braking from front wheels, rear ride height was not so high at start so squatting generates moderate camber and toe in value there what helps you stabilize your exit from corner.
Edit: forget to mention at you get positive camber on inside wheel and negative on outer if you steer while exiting corner, because fully lifted front and body roll during it.

Answer, you don't know reason why you tune your car in way you tune it.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

If anyone interested to try this replica, be my guest I'm stuck on older version GT6 now

HKS Technical Factory CZ200S Time Attack
Tsukuba Street Car / Tire 2009 Record Holder for Under 1 Minute Lap

Tuned to replicate HKS CZ200S Time Attack Street Car
Advan Neova AD07 vs AD08 Tsukuba Time Attack Hot Version/Best Motoring Feature

Comfort Soft to Sports Medium​

View attachment 256092
View attachment 257965
​

CAR : Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution X GSR Premium Package '07
Tire : Comfort Soft to Sports Medium

Specs
Horsepower: 567 HP / 574.5 PS at 6400 RPM
Torque : 482.2 ft-lb / 66.7 kgfm at 5500 RPM
Power Limiter at : 96.0%
Weight: 1581 kg
Ballast : 41 kg
Ballast Position : 44
Weight Distribution : 58 / 42 as the real car spec.
Performance Points: 545



GT AUTO
OIL Change
Improve Body Rigidity ( NOT INSTALLED )
Wheels : Standard Size Volk RAYS CE28N in Dark Gray / Black
Car Paint : White Solid
Aero Kits Type A ( Optional )
Custom Rear Wing :
Wing Mount Standard Type C
Wing Large Type C
Winglets Large Type A
Wing size Height +0
Wing size Width +15


Tuning Parts Installed :
Engine Tuning Stage 3
Sports Computer
Racing Exhaust
Isometric Exhaust Manifold
Intake Tuning
Catalytic Converter Sports
High RPM Range Turbo Kit
Twin Plate Clutch
Fully Customizable Suspension
Racing Brakes Kit


Base Replica Setup based on 12/10 Hipermax II Sport Spring Rate

Suspension - HKS HIPERMAX SPORTS III '09 Edition with HKS Technical Factory Test Car Alignment Range
HKS Visual Ride Height Setup - Used on the replica video ( Recommended )
Front, Rear

Ride Height: 70 80
Spring Rate: 12.00 9.77
Dampers (Compression): 2 8
Dampers (Extension): 7 3
Anti-Roll Bars: 4 5
Camber Angle: 2.2 1.2
Toe Angle: 0.00 0.00

Suspension - HKS HIPERMAX SPORTS III '09 Edition with Mitsubishi OEM Alignment Range
HKS Visual Ride Height Setup
Front, Rear

Ride Height: 70 80
Spring Rate: 12.00 9.77
Dampers (Compression): 2 8
Dampers (Extension): 7 3
Anti-Roll Bars: 4 5
Camber Angle: 1.0 1.0
Toe Angle: 0.00 0.19

Suspension - HKS HIPERMAX SPORTS III '09 Edition with HKS Technical Factory Test Car Alignment Range
HKS Test Car Ride Height Setup
Front, Rear

Ride Height: 89 116
Spring Rate: 12.00 9.77
Dampers (Compression): 2 8
Dampers (Extension): 7 3
Anti-Roll Bars: 4 5
Camber Angle: 2.2 1.2
Toe Angle: 0.00 0.00

Suspension - HKS HIPERMAX SPORTS III '09 Edition with Mitsubishi OEM Alignment Range
HKS Test Car Ride Height Setup
Front, Rear

Ride Height: 89 116
Spring Rate: 12.00 9.77
Dampers (Compression): 2 8
Dampers (Extension): 7 3
Anti-Roll Bars: 4 5
Camber Angle: 1.0 1.0
Toe Angle: 0.00 0.19

View attachment 257963​

OPTIONAL Lower Spring Rate Package 10/8 :

Suspension - HKS HIPERMAX SPORTS III '09 Edition with HKS Technical Factory Test Car Alignment Range
HKS Visual Ride Height Setup
Front, Rear

Ride Height: 70 80
Spring Rate: 10.00 8.00
Dampers (Compression): 6 8
Dampers (Extension): 7 3
Anti-Roll Bars: 4 5
Camber Angle: 2.2 1.2
Toe Angle: 0.00 0.00

Suspension - HKS HIPERMAX SPORTS III '09 Edition with Mitsubishi OEM Alignment Range
HKS Visual Ride Height Setup
Front, Rear

Ride Height: 70 80
Spring Rate: 10.00 8.00
Dampers (Compression): 6 8
Dampers (Extension): 7 3
Anti-Roll Bars: 4 5
Camber Angle: 1.0 1.0
Toe Angle: 0.00 0.19

View attachment 257987​

Suspension - HKS HIPERMAX SPORTS III '09 Edition with HKS Technical Factory Test Car Alignment Range
HKS Test Car Ride Height Setup
Front, Rear

Ride Height: 89 116
Spring Rate: 10.00 8.00
Dampers (Compression): 6 8
Dampers (Extension): 7 3
Anti-Roll Bars: 4 5
Camber Angle: 2.2 1.2
Toe Angle: 0.00 0.00

Suspension - HKS HIPERMAX SPORTS III '09 Edition with Mitsubishi OEM Alignment Range
HKS Test Car Ride Height Setup
Front, Rear

Ride Height: 89 116
Spring Rate: 10.00 8.00
Dampers (Compression): 2 8
Dampers (Extension): 7 3
Anti-Roll Bars: 4 5
Camber Angle: 1.0 1.0
Toe Angle: 0.00 0.19



Mitsubishi OEM Alignment Reference data used by HKS :

Camber Angle : Front Range 1.00 +- 0.50, Rear Range 1.00 +- 0.50
Toe Angle : Front Range ( Zero Toe ) 0.00 +- 0.12, Rear Range ( Toe In ) 0.19 +- 0.12

View attachment 257966​

AYC
AYC Controller : 88 ( Recommended Range 86 to 96 )


AERO
Rear : 20 ( Max )


Brake Balance:
4/4 ( personal BB) or for ABS 0 wheel : 2/2, for ABS 1 - feel free to use your preferred brake balance.

Recommended setting for DS3 user :

Steering sensitivity at +1 or +2, all aids off, except ABS 1 ( if not comfortable with ABS 0 ) with 4/4 brake balance as starting point.

Notes :

This is one of my most fun replica that I ever built The car is HKS CZ200S, a sleeper street car build which can double as time attack car at the track The car used is Mitsubishi Lancer Evo X CZ4A with a generous helping of HP increase. The specs of the real car :

Engine Modifications
HKS 4B11 forged pistons, HKS 4B11 H-section connecting rods (prototype), HKS GT3240 54T A/R0.73 full turbine kit, HKS GTII external wastegate, HKS turbine adapter, HKS stainless steel downpipe, HKS Silent Hyper one-off exhaust system, HKS Valcon Plus V Cam Kit Pro (256º IN, 248º EX); HKS 1.2 mm metal head gasket. HKS bypass pipe, HKS chamber pipe (polished), HKS polished suction pipe, HKS Racing Suction Reloaded foam filter, HKS R-Type Intercooler, HKS polished intercooler piping, upgraded fuel pump, HKS fuel rail, HKS 1000cc/min injectors, HKS cam covers with carbon spark plug cover
Power Rated at 575 PS and 67.5 Kgf-m of torque with the boost set at 1.95kgf/sqcm

Engine Management
HKS F-Con V Pro ECU

Drivetrain
HKS Racing 6-speed strengthened gears transmission (prototype) - uses 6 speed OEM ratio, HKS LA-type twin plate clutch w/ lightweight flywheel.

Suspension
HKS Hipermax III Sport prototype version ( '09 Spec )

Wheels, Tires and Brakes
Yokohama Advan Racing RS 18x10 +25 front, +35 rear, Yokohama Advan Neova AD08 ( Soft Compound - possibly an early phase of the "R" Orange Oil Rubber Compound ) 265/35R18 tires, Endless monoblock forged 6-pot calipers (f), 2-piece mini 6-pot calipers (r), Endless 2-piece E-slotted rotors (f/r), Endless brake pads all around

Exterior
Ralliart front brake ducts, HKS carbon canards, HKS carbon front under spoiler, Esprit dry carbon rear GT wing/HKS dry carbon rear wing (now fitted)

Interior
Bride Zeta III carbon-Kevlar racing bucket seats, Takata racing harnesses, Nardi leather steering wheel, HKS shift knob, HKS EVC 5 boost controller, HKS Circuit Attack Counter lap timer, HKS A/F Knock Amp meter, data logger

The car was featured in Hot Version / Best Motoring ( not sure which one ) Advan Neova AD07 vs AD08 Time Attack. This replica is based on the very same car that broke the street car/tire lap record at Tsukuba ( under 1 minute ). Driven by the drift master / HKS Test Driver Nobuteru Taniguchi, the HKS CZ200S posted 59.495 time on lap 8. A testament of the excellent performance, consistency and durability of the tire. The tire used was Advan Neova AD08 ( there's a possibility the tire uses early phase "R" Orange Oil Compound which later become AD08R ) The equivalent is slightly below SM tire in GT6, as the SH tire severely lacks in straight line grip, but SM has a bit too high lateral grip, so I have to make do with SM tire and it works great.

The weight and distribution data uses HKS own test car data for the Hipermax III Sport '09 Spec. Test car weight at 1581kg with 58.1 / 41.9 distribution, reflected in the ballast position. Power set at 567HP / 575 PS with all power upgrades installed and oil change. Torque is highest possible at 482.2 ft-lb / 66.7 kgfm, slightly lower than the real car 67.5 kgfm.

Suspension uses HKS Hipermax III Sport '09 Spec, with 12/10 spring rate. The rear spring rate is not possible in GT6 , so I have to use slightly lower rate at 9.77 kg/mm. I have tuned the damper and ARB to help the car easier to rotate. With the visual ride height and test car ride height being front lower, the understeer effect needs to be reduced/controlled. I have provided a variety of ride height and alignment to choose from. The recommended setup is 12/9.77 + Visual Ride Height ( 70/80 ) and HTF Test Car Alignment, this is the setup that I used for the GT6 vs Real Life video

There is also a second set of suspension setup which uses lower spring rate package at 10/8. This is suited better for bumpy tracks. It comes with the same variety of ride height and alignment as 12/9.77

AYC has been tuned as well with base value of 88 used on the replica ( recommended range 86 - 96 ). Feel free to adjust it to your liking / driving style.

The transmission remain stock as the real car uses 6 speed manual H pattern with HKS own prototype gears ( strengthened to endure the torque/power ) and uses 6 speed SST Getrag ratio and final. The base car used might be originally a manual 5 speed Evo X or SST 6 speed Evo X and HKS did a Manual H pattern conversion. A twin plate clutch also fitted ( HKS LA Type )

Racing Brakes kit has been installed to replicate the braking power / distance of the real car which have upgraded Endless Brake Kit : Monoblock forged 6-pot calipers (f), 2-piece mini 6-pot calipers (r), Endless 2-piece E-slotted rotors (f/r), Endless brake pads all around. Brake balance set at 4/4 for good stable braking power.

I have installed a rear wing, recreating as close as possible the real car Esprit GT Carbon Wing ( fitted on the real life lap record ) The Esprit GT wing was replaced after wards with HKS own GT wing.

The HKS CZ200S replica was tuned and tested at Willow Springs, Twin Ring Motegi Road and Tsukuba ( on comfort tire and sports tire ). At Twin Ring Motegi Road and Comfort Soft ( 12/9.77 + Visual+Test Alignment ), it managed a 2:06s lap time in 1st lap, quicker than the Gallardo SL LP570-4 and Nissan GTR '07 replica on same CS tire A replay of the Motegi lap has been included.


I also have included below a replay of the lap replicating the real life record at Tsukuba. The lap in GT6 is 59.484 against real life 59.495. I drive with similar pace to real life ( I watched the real life lap and used what I saw as a reference on how Taniguchi-san attack the track + how hard he pushed the car ), and you can see that the braking, steering, shift actions are very similar. A Youtube video has also been made, credits goes to @Lewis_Hamilton_, who helped created/edited/uploaded the video on his account, view it and leave a comment or like

Enjoy the car and the video ( a must watch )

The real HKS CZ200S
View attachment 257970 View attachment 257971 View attachment 257979 View attachment 257980 View attachment 257973 View attachment 257972 View attachment 257968 View attachment 257974 View attachment 257975 View attachment 257977 View attachment 257978​

UPDATE : Corrected toe values for toe in

The car in the video uses HKS Technical Factory Test Car Alignment and HKS Visual Ride Height Setup



I drove with realistic pace -pushing as hard as Taniguchi did after I watch his run ( a trait that I got from building many replicas, able to throttle my pace - from realistic warm up/practice/hot lap to all out without fear game pace ), on "alien" like pace, it would at least be 1 second quicker without much effort, especially with a wheel and brake assist.

 

[LVracerGT]

I am, for sure, going to be testing tonight before some racing later in the night. I'll do both motegi and a road course and post my findings. If anyone wants to join me I'll be testing around 8pm EST. I'll edit this post with the room number when I start.

 

[super_gt]

I am, for sure, going to be testing tonight before some racing later in the night. I'll do both motegi and a road course and post my findings. If anyone wants to join me I'll be testing around 8pm EST. I'll edit this post with the room number when I start.

Keep in mind that my test is made offline 👍

 

[Stotty]

1. And what this fully compressed suspension helps, or why it helps? What are mechanical benefits of this?
2. Is neutral same as height were it was set?
Why this helps you?
3. In other words rear is squatting, and what are benefits of this?

1a) compressed suspension makes dynamic camber higher, more negative camber on outer side. Generated toe in stabilizes straight line braking.
2a) slightly compressed, slight dynamic camber values, starting point high and inner wheel gets slight positive camber.
3a) rear squats, front rises, front returns to static camber value, 0-camber on your case, so no static braking from front wheels, rear ride height was not so high at start so squatting generates moderate camber and toe in value there what helps you stabilize your exit from corner.
Edit: forget to mention at you get positive camber on inside wheel and negative on outer if you steer while exiting corner, because fully lifted front and body roll during it.

Answer, you don't know reason why you tune your car in way you tune it.

In GT6 you tune to make a car fast, you don't need to know anything about how suspension works in real life, you only need to understand how the different variables interact and to be able to feel how changing a number from x to y affects how the car behaves... for example, @WhoosierGirl has zero knowledge of real suspension (or so she tells me), yet she is able to produce cracking tunes.

However, I do understand the technicalities of how real suspension works, so no need to try and patronise me.

In relation to your post above; anything can be made to sound solid theoretically, but there are a coupe of holes in your theory...

1. If the above was true, we would see real cars running higher front ride than rear - but we don't. Track cars typically have their rake the other way around.

2. If the above was true, I could run less ride height differential and simply compensate by adding negative camber - but this doesn't work in GT6. All adding camber does is reduce the amount of grip the car has... both lateral grip and straight line braking/accelerating.

 

[OdeFinn]

1. If the above was true, we would see real cars running higher front ride than rear - but we don't. Track cars typically have their rake the other way around.

Those would work in real life too, if there wasn't air resistance. And lift caused by it.
And if driver could see thru engine hood.

2. If the above was true, I could run less ride height differential and simply compensate by adding negative camber - but this doesn't work in GT6. All adding camber does is reduce the amount of grip the car has... both lateral grip and straight line braking/accelerating.

Not simply by adding negative camber, many other setting has to set support that camber tune.
Front high rear low method tuning is shortcut for good camber tune, unrealistic but mathematically working on GT6 because of low air resistance. That way is easy to change& test to find some way working tune.

 

[LVracerGT]

Keep in mind that my test is made offline 👍

People still race offline? Haha

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Anyone ever though to try springs + ride height combo and opposite tire grip level - CH vs RS : lowest spring rate + lowest & highest ride height with zero camber and camber, then compare with highest spring rate setup ( lowest + highest ride, zero camber + camber ) ? Would be interesting how much zero camber and camber are affected by spring rate, tire grip and ride height. IRL, these 3 are quite important when setting up camber.

An FR car with high range spring rate and ride height adjustment would be a good choice.

 

[LVracerGT]

Just put a room up for camber testing.

ROOM CLOSED.

RESULTS:


Ok ladies and gents, here's what I came up with after a short testing period. I did not do any road course testing as my findings at the Motegi oval gave me enough evidence to come to a conclusion.

Car: Honda S2000 '06 (235hp 163ft-lbs) (1250kg)
Tires: Comfort Soft on all four corners
Wheel: G27

Room Settings:
Track Grip - Real
Tire Wear - Off

The only modification to the car was a full racing suspension. Ride height, spring rates, dampers, and roll bars were all matched to the stock suspension. Toe was set to 0 front and rear for all runs. Runs were 10 or so laps each until the lowest consistent time was achieved. I chose this car and tire combo for the chassis balance and the speed. You can't take turns 3-4 flat. All runs were in 6th gear only, lifting into turn 3 (lifting ONLY, no brakes at all) and then getting back to power as soon as possible for the run out of 4 onto the front straight.

Run 1:
Camber front - 0
Camber rear - 0

Consistent 45.1 occasionally dipping into the high 45.2 range.

Turns 1 and 2 are flat, but requires some extra wheel input in the center to keep the car on the white line as the front starts to push a little. In turns 3 and 4 the car starts to slide up the track after getting back to power with the front end wanting to wash away.

Run 2:
Camber front - 1.0
Camber rear - 0

Consistent 45.0

Turns 1 and 2 now require less wheel input and the car has far less push in the center of the corner. In turns 3-4 I can now get back to power sooner, and the front end still pushes, but not as bad.

Run 3:
Camber front - 2.0
Camber rear - 0

Consistent 44.9

Turns 1 and 2 require even less wheel input, barely leaving center. Turns 3 and 4 I can lift a little later and get back to power even earlier with less push than before through turn 4.

CONCLUSION:

Based on the lap time results and the car handling changes with the camber changes, IMO camber is not broken, and is working properly.

 

[eclipsee]

My experience of camber testing in GT6 is;

With no camber, you have a higher grip limit, but the limit is more defined and grip loss more sudden.

With camber, the transition from grip to slip is more progressive, but the limit is ultimately lower.

This is what I feel too, and that's why the camber in my cars is always set to 0.0 (there was only one exception though).

From GT1 to GT5 I always used some values of camber as they somehow worked as expected, but it isn't the case in GT6 for me, with camber set to 0.0 so far I feel there's more grip, don't take this as fact, it's only my opinion, I'm not a very good tuner, in fact, my knowledge of real life tuning is very basic and I only tweak things by trial-error method in this videogame until the car behaves the way I like, anyway I don't think my car settings are nonsense crap because from time to time I can reach the top spot in the seasonal TT's.

 

[Imari]

Score so far:

Jaws flapping - 99
Tunes - 1
Results to date - camber still not working properly based on one tester.

A whole bunch of people arguing about what works, but none of what is being suggested is in any way similar to what works on a real car on a real track.

Camber is still broken, in the sense that it doesn't work in anything like the same way that real camber works. It's a fictional adjustment that happens to have the same name as a real world adjustment.

 

[Tornado]

Whats the point in explaining anything to you Stotty, you see in a one dimensional view and anything outside that just gets greeted with contempt?

You seem to be having your usual double standards/antagonising issues - try reading my first post again and see if you're able to comprehend the point I was making.

If it's too much for you to work out, maybe try asking someone 👍

Like what you did for how long throughout GT5 with your "suspension is backwards" theory??

I don't understand the purpose of this thread when there's already a thread/test in place for camber.

If you're going to use a single aspect as data for 'evidence' i.e. lap times, you'll have the same issues of validity that's been highlighted in the other thread.

The same principles of validating the data will be in process, and the same way of recording them i.e.motec data can be utilised, not just for results but validation too, so why create something that's already elsewhere, why not contribute to what's currently in place?

OH MY GOD - have you really just asked that!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?




Try googling something called "traction", you obviously not heard of it!!!!!

To even ask that question is ludicrous..

Stotty is the problem here. Of course.





The question remains, though, if you're above all of this dick swinging because of your past four years fighting "ego wars," why you keep intentionally derailing a thread you've deemed below you attempting to discuss physics replication now because of past personal squabbles with someone who isn't even talking to you or your claimed (but not actually demonstrated when asked) expertise? Why not just follow through and keep "all of your personal findings to yourself" (or at least the thread you keep talking up) to save everyone else the headache of wading through out of nowhere e-peen arguments when they are actually trying to learn what GT6 is replicating?

 

[Highlandor]

The question remains, though, if you're above all of this dick swinging because of your past four years fighting "ego wars," why you keep intentionally derailing a thread you've deemed below you attempting to discuss physics replication now because of past personal squabbles with someone who isn't even talking to you or your claimed (but not actually demonstrated when asked) expertise? Why not just follow through and keep "all of your personal findings to yourself" (or at least the thread you keep talking up) to save everyone else the headache of wading through out of nowhere e-peen arguments when they are actually trying to learn what GT6 is replicating?

Like I'm the only one on this site who de-rails a thread of course like trying to highlight the importance of context over content (presuming you missed that post or just chose to ignore it?)..

 

[Tornado]

"I'm not the only one who deliberately drags threads off topic on this forum" isn't exactly the most brilliant defense tactic, I have to say.

like trying to highlight the importance of context over content

Yes, the context of bringing up some apparent slight Stotty caused against you regarding suspension tuning being backwards, presumably during your tour of duty in the "ego wars", was totally, um... something related to this thread, even though you avoided the question when asked why you brought it up.
I don't really give a damn what you think you have to gain by acting like the guy who is too cool for the room (but you'll hang out anyway just to say how much better you are for doing so). I will, however, say that some of us actually are interested in the question raised by the OP but don't understand the raw and early stage results being thrown around in the thread actually used for testing; but considerably less so with you or Stotty or Odefinn or Motor City Hami competing in the America's Next Top Passive Aggressive Ass 2014 page after page after page. And Stotty and Odefinn are at least talking about the topic.