Islam - What's your view on it?

[UKMikey]

This isn't the Britain thread. Examples of extreme religious behaviour are relevant to the discussion and saying "well, that's different" are unlikely to cut it or convince anyone.

I'm not sure why you're attempting to convince me to join you in a bizarre provocation to prove a point.

Extremist activists orchestrated the hate campaign, not regular Muslims.

What a teacher in hiding can tell us about our failure to tackle intolerance | Kenan Malik

A class about free speech was cynically exploited by activists to incite fury in a local community

www.theguardian.com

 

[HenrySwanson]

This isn't the Britain thread.

Yes. It is the Islam thread.

You do realise you guys are sounding a bit like the MAGAs, just with a different ideology??

My ex-friend:

Deep Thoughts

I'm reading about Habermas' view on secularism. Perhaps the next step in the evolution of Western societies could bring a renewed (deeper) sense of purpose. I'd imagine other cultures would find their way to....enlightenment(?) through different paths.

www.gtplanet.net

Just a random criminal? Extremist? Activist?

 

[Gingerale]

Criminal assaults woman, remains at large through lack of witnesses. Better ban Islam.

If assault is already illegal, how would we lower the amount of assaults by making Islam illegal?

 

[Scaff]

But I don't live in these states, I live in London. We are a secular country with the religious majority being Christians.

The UK is not a secular country, we have a state religion, the head of which is the monarch, with leaders of that faith embedded automatically in the House of Lords.

Why do these debates always, always, always turn into Christianity? It's bizarre. It's like talking about multiple sclerosis and then saying "well what about brain tumours?". Why can't we discuss the topic at hand?

I didn't, I compared three religions, mainly to point our a weird double standard you have repeatedly employed.


Oh and posting the Free Speech Union, an organisation that only likes free speech when it agrees with them, rather telling.

 

[HenrySwanson]

The UK is not a secular country, we have a state religion, the head of which is the monarch, with leaders of that faith embedded automatically in the House of Lords.

....And with that I can walk around safely with a "Jesus is queer" top. Remember that even though we have what you have stated, in general terms the UK is one of the more secular countries in the world.

I didn't, I compared three religions, mainly to point our a weird double standard you have repeatedly employed.

No double standard. I'm pointing out the flaw in the ideology that "all religions are equal". It's like saying "you can be anything you want to be". Patently false and ridiculous.

Oh and posting the Free Speech Union, an organisation that only likes free speech when it agrees with them, rather telling.

And citing the Middle East Forum as well, a conservative think tank set up to promote US interests, with close ties to Israel? Did the absolutist nature of that piece not give you the slightest pause for thought?

You can see it's a liddle bit MAGA-like.

 

[Liquid]

The UK is not a secular country, we have a state religion, the head of which is the monarch, with leaders of that faith embedded automatically in the House of Lords.

"That doesn't count."

However ineffectively or weakly it is enforced, the UK is a de jure theocracy. The principle matters.

 

[Scaff]

....And with that I can walk around safely with a "Jesus is queer" top. Remember that even though we have what you have stated, in general terms the UK is one of the more secular countries in the world.

If you need to effectively redefine what a secular nation is to describe the UK, then it's not.

No double standard. I'm pointing out the flaw in the ideology that "all religions are equal". It's like saying "you can be anything you want to be". Patently false and ridiculous.

No ones said they are all equal, so drop the strawman, you know the exact point that's being raised, which is your repeated double standards.

You can see it's a liddle bit MAGA-like.

Toby Young, the MEF and FSU are all quite MAGA-like, well spotted.

 

[UKMikey]

If assault is already illegal, how would we lower the amount of assaults by making Islam illegal?

That was the entire point of my previous post. Forgot the /s tag, sorry.

 

[Gingerale]

That was the entire point of my previous post. Forgot the /s tag, sorry.

Yeah sorry i should address it to @HenrySwanson

 

[HenrySwanson]

If you need to effectively redefine what a secular nation is to describe the UK, then it's not.

You don't see how that's worse? In a Christian nation I'm more safe to do that...?

No ones said they are all equal, so drop the strawman, you know the exact point that's being raised, which is your repeated double standards.

What is the point then?

Toby Young, the MEF and FSU are all quite MAGA-like, well spotted.

I'm saying you guys are. For Christ's sake, the Toby Young article is a free version of The Times article because it was paywalled!!

This is insanity!

 

[Scaff]

You don't see how that's worse? In a Christian nation I'm more safe to do that...?

I was addressing a singular point, your claim that the UK is a secular nation. It's not, and your moving goal posts.

What is the point then?

I've no idea, you claimed people were saying they were all equal, not me.

I'm saying you guys are. For Christ's sake, the Toby Young article is a free version of The Times article because it was paywalled!!

This is insanity!

Which has zero to do withe the issue of using a eugenics supporting, misogynistic, homophobe, who set up a 'Free speech ' organisation with zero interest in actual free speech as a source.

 

[UKMikey]

Condemning extremist agitators whilst demanding equal treatment for the majority of regular Muslims is so MAGA.

 

[HenrySwanson]

Condemning extremist agitators whilst demanding equal treatment for the majority of regular Muslims is so MAGA.

No, man, that's not what Hitchens is saying.

We should be condemning the religion, not shying away from it by blaming extremists. Over half of British Muslims in a poll want to make showing "the prophet" illegal. Do you agree with that?!

As Hitchens again said: Resist it while you still can.

My friend (not an extremist, not an activist, not a criminal) said ChatGPT lies and distorts:

Where are the lies? The distortion?

 

[Scaff]

No, man, that's not what Hitchens is saying.

We should be condemning the religion, not shying away from it by blaming extremists. Over half of British Muslims in a poll want to make showing "the prophet" illegal. Do you agree with that?!

It's not a zero sum situation, it's perfect possible to want zero blasphemy laws to be in place without blaming all followers of any religion.

Plenty of Christians fought to stop the removal of the blasphemy laws in the UK, doesn't mean all Christians should be condemned as a result.

As Hitchens again said: Resist it while you still can.

Personally I'm more concerned with far right views being mainstream in the UK than unsourced polls about blasphemy laws that aren't going to amount to much.

View attachment 1397700

View attachment 1397701

Where are the lies? The distortion?

Are we ignoring the OT in Christianity again?

 

[UKMikey]

No, man, that's not what Hitchens is saying.

That's what the article I posted was saying. The author condemns the rise of radical Islam, not all Islam.

We should be condemning the religion, not shying away from it by blaming extremists. Over half of British Muslims in a poll want to make showing "the prophet" illegal. Do you agree with that?!

73% of white American evangelists believe abortion should be criminalised in all or most cases. I think people should outvote them, not hold pogroms, mass deportation and deprogramming.

I feel the same way about Muslims. There's no great replacement where they outnumber non-Muslims. Instead they're outnumbered by 47 to 3 in the UK according to the 2021 census, an increase of only 1.6% in ten years. It's already illegal for them to act violently towards others on behalf of their beliefs.

Please note that I'm quoting documented sources and not "this is what my friend said" to support my view.

 

[HenrySwanson]

It's not a zero sum situation, it's perfect possible to want zero blasphemy laws to be in place without blaming all followers of any religion.

Plenty of Christians fought to stop the removal of the blasphemy laws in the UK, doesn't mean all Christians should be condemned as a result.

We are in 2024. Labour was considering how to define Islamophobia. Depending on which definition is used, there could be a blasphemy law by the backdoor. A Sikh group recently pointed this out and it's now on the backburner.

Your views are becoming extremely outdated.

Personally I'm more concerned with far right views being mainstream in the UK than unsourced polls about blasphemy laws that aren't going to amount to much.

Aren't going to amount to much?!

I would have a criminal record for what I'm posting!

What is this madness!

Are we ignoring the OT in Christianity again?

WHAT?!!

Again with the bloody Christianity! Why pick that rather than the 8 other religions?

Muslims see Muhammad as the most perfect human who ever walked the Earth.

Christians have the OT....but because of Jesus and reformation of the religion, you can have lesbian reverends leading churches in some denominations.

That's what the article I posted was saying.

Can you explain?

73% of white American evangelists believe abortion should be illegal in all or most cases. I think people should outvote them, not hold pogroms, mass deportation and deprogramming.

You guys really have a hard-on for Christianity.

Who is talking about pogroms, mass deportation and deprogramming?!

I feel the same way about Muslims. There's no great replacement where they outnumber non-Muslims. Instead they're outnumbered by 47 to 3 in the UK according to the 2021 census. It's already criminal for them to act violently towards others on behalf of their beliefs.

And yet, in the UK, you aren't going to post a picture of Mo are you?

Hold on, I'll work out the next reply according to the algorithm:

• There are extremists in every religion

Yes, but there are so many more Christians in the UK as you have just pointed out. Why am I more at risk from Muslims in a Christian country (as said by Scaff) by just showing a picture of Mo if they are outnumbered 47 to 3 even if I post about naked lesbian nuns having graphic sex involving Jesus?

 

[MatskiMonk]

Over half of British Muslims in a poll want to make showing "the prophet" illegal. Do you agree with that?!

The specifics of that poll (which was of ~1000 muslims vs ~2000 general population)

 

[UKMikey]

Can you explain?

See my edit above.

And yet, in the UK, you aren't going to post a picture of Mo are you?

Why on earth would I want to do so? Still, here you go:

Yes, but there are so many more Christians in the UK as you have just pointed out. Why am I more at risk from Muslims in a Christian country (as said by Scaff) by just showing a picture of Mo if they are outnumbered 47 to 3 even if I post about naked lesbian nuns having graphic sex involving Jesus?

How much at risk are you?

You guys really have a hard-on for Christianity.

I compared Christianity and Islam by posting stats for both. Why do you really have a hard-on for only considering one religion in isolation?

Who is talking about pogroms, mass deportation and deprogramming?!

What solution do you propose to change Muslims' beliefs?

Hold on, I'll work out the next reply according to the algorithm:

What algorithm?

 

[Sprite]

I’m sorry to hear some on GTP have such a bitter and angry view of Islam and Muslims.

As an Atheist which my religious friends from all religions know, I’ve never felt treated in any other way than a human being with a different view.

If my friends wanted Mohammed to not be depicted in any way, shape or form, surely as a none believer it’s my responsibility to not do that? Isn’t that what being a good friend, neighbour or human being is?

Why would you want to cause others upset just to prove a point?

If everyone would respect each other’s beliefs, you wouldn’t need to feel afraid and you could go about your life without so much anger.

Are there people out there who try and push for the extreme aspects of religion or express views that everyone should follow said docterin otherwise be hurt, attacked or killed in some cases?

Yes there are and they have a name

Extremists

And they’re dealt with by the copious laws governing such things.

I have a feeling these people who take umbridge with religions also are the ones who get door to door sales people and have a go at the people, telling them that they’re wasting your time and to get a proper job, slamming the door in their face. When you could have just politely said you’re not interested and exused yourself in a calm manner.

Trust me the latter is better for your mental health.

 

[Scaff]

Yes, but there are so many more Christians in the UK as you have just pointed out. Why am I more at risk from Muslims in a Christian country (as said by Scaff) by just showing a picture of Mo if they are outnumbered 47 to 3 even if I post about naked lesbian nuns having graphic sex involving Jesus?

Have you ever been to Northern Ireland?

Take a walk around Belfast with your Tshirt and report back.

 

[HenrySwanson]

See my edit above.

OK....what's that got to do with Hitch?

Why on earth would I want to do so?

Because we have to resist religion's pernicious influence, whichever one it is. Did you watch Hitch's video? What did you think of the message?

Still, here you go:
View attachment 1397708

??
That's not Mo

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www.ebay.com

How much at risk are you?

You asked about the Batley teacher. How much risk is he under?

I compared Christianity and Islam by posting stats for both. Why do you really have a hard-on for only considering one religion in isolation?

Did I consider one in isolation? Have you not seen my anti-Christianity posts? How they persecute LGBT? How they deprive pregnant people of their rights? In any of those instances, have you brought up another religion as a counter point?

So I ask again, why the hard-on for Christianity?

What solution do you propose to change Muslims' beliefs?

What we did/do with other religions. Take the piss. Say that their views need to evolve. Become intolerant of 7th century views on women and LGBT.

I’m sorry to hear some on GTP have such a bitter and angry view of Islam and Muslims.

I have a very angry view of Islam, wouldn't you? Why not?

If everyone would respect each other’s beliefs, you wouldn’t need to feel afraid and you could go about your life without so much anger.

It's like you didn't experience the Qatar World Cup.

Extremists

And they’re dealt with by the copious laws governing such things.

Ah, the algorithm strikes again.

I have a feeling these people who take umbridge with religions also are the ones who get door to door sales people and have a go at the people, telling them that they’re wasting your time and to get a proper job, slamming the door in their face. When you could have just politely said you’re not interested and exused yourself in a calm manner.

Not in my case.

Have you ever been to Northern Ireland?

Take a walk around Belfast with your Tshirt and report back.

I've never been to Northern Ireland. I know it's quite sectarian. Do you have precedent for violent assaults on someone showing Jesus as gay/pro LGBT?

But what, really, would that prove?

Per your point, England is a Christian country. These attacks/protests are supposedly by "extremists". Surely if I go to my local park I shouldn't expect to run into an extremist? And if I did, wouldn't the extremist be much more likely to be Christian?

------

Basically, we should be supporting ex-Muslims and progressive Muslims more. Stuff like:

Credit to Reddit's exMuslim community.

 

[UKMikey]

OK....what's that got to do with Hitch?

It sounds like Hitch opposes Islam, not radical Islam. Could you explain whether or not this is the case without requiring me to watch a video?

Because we have to resist religion's pernicious influence, whichever one it is. Did you watch Hitch's video? What did you think of the message?

It's possible to resist religion's pernicious influence without deliberately pissing people off.

??

That's what came up when I googled "picture of Muhammad". Will this do? It's from Jyllands-Posten via Wikipedia.

What we did/do with other religions. Take the piss. Say that their views need to evolve. Become intolerant of 7th century views on women and LGBT.

No one's stopping you.

You asked about the Batley teacher. How much risk is he under?

Extremists are bad people.

Did I consider one in isolation? Have you not seen my anti-Christianity posts? How they persecute LGBT? How they deprive pregnant people of their rights? In any of those instances, have you brought up another religion as a counter point?

So I ask again, why the hard-on for Christianity?

I don't need to post a counterpoint to something I agree with.

Ah, the algorithm strikes again.

What algorithm?

 

[HenrySwanson]

It sounds like Hitch opposes Islam, not radical Islam. Could you explain whether or not this is the case without requiring me to watch a video?

And deprive you of the chance to watch his genius?

It's possible to resist religion's pernicious influence without deliberately pissing people off.

We broke quite a few religious eggs secularising the UK and giving people more rights. Time for the next round.

No one's stopping you.

Well yeah, I posted my actual picture of Mo (note I'm not pressuring you to do it, I am aware of the risks and you are readily identifiable because of your Twitter profile). In fact I'd advise not to.

----

The algorithm is like what MAGAs do, i.e. they'll follow a blatantly obvious script.

Concrete proof Trump did something?
- They've been paid to say that/they're corrupt/etc

It could be a function of my solipsism that I recognise such patterns more readily.

 

[UKMikey]

Well yeah, I posted my actual picture of Mo

Where?

The algorithm is like what MAGAs do, i.e. they'll follow a blatantly obvious script.

Concrete proof Trump did something?
- They've been paid to say that/their corrupt/etc

Oh. It's something you made up, then. You're drawing a false equivalence between our counterpoints and MAGA's unevidenced denial of facts by putting words in people's mouths.

 

[HenrySwanson]

Where?

It's in my post history. I've kept it up for now.

 

[Duke]

OK, I'm trying to follow this, and you guys are confusing the hell out of me. Mostly this:

HenrySwanson wrote:

Because we have to resist religion's pernicious influence, whichever one it is. Did you watch Hitch's video? What did you think of the message?

You post this, and then complain mightily that people are singling out Christianity, all while singling out Islam?! I'm confused.

Religion is fine for the individual practitioner. There is no requirement or burden on anyone else whatsoever to follow, agree with, or even respect the precepts of any religion.

End. Of. Story.

Religion gets no more courtesy than you would afford any stranger you chanced to meet.

ANY religion whose followers condone violence for anything other than pure defense against someone else's physical attack should be condemned. Those people are doing what their religion tells them they should do - particularly in cases where it is clearly spelled out, such as in the Qur'an or the Old Testament. You don't get to say that the religion itself is nonviolent as long as you ignore the violent parts. It's not just bad people. It's bad people following a bad religion.

If people are going to claim that their religion is nonviolent then they need to berking permanently edit the violent parts out of their holy books.

And this crap is entirely why I have almost zero patience for religion.

 

[UKMikey]

It's in my post history. I've kept it up for now.

I also posted a picture in response just now.

 

[HenrySwanson]

OK, I'm trying to follow this, and you guys are confusing the hell out of me. Mostly this:

You post this, and then complain mightily that people are singling out Christianity, all while singling out Islam?! I'm confused.

I don't think it's confusing.

Think of religion like food. If one religion is a burger and the other is a cookie they're both food, right? What if one is a strawberry?

You can't then say all food is as bad as each other; they each have their good and bad points.

Jainism, for example. You can't possibly say it's as violent as the Abrahamic religions. That doesn't preclude its followers from committing heinous, violent acts. But there may be positives of Islam compared to Jainism, like more of an emphasis on groups/family/tithing etc.

I also posted a picture in response just now.

Brave:

Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

For "balance", check out the trailer for "Sancta"

 

[UKMikey]

Brave:

What's your point? You challenged me to do something. I did it. The picture is freely available.

For "balance", check out the trailer for "Sancta"

I can't be arsed. If you don't want to make a point on the thread, I'm not interested in watching another video to try and decipher what you're trying to say.

 

[HenrySwanson]

What's your point? You challenged me to do something. I did it. The picture is freely available.

The point is to look at the wiki link I posted and the people who have been attacked on the street for wearing clothing with Muhammad on it. The outcry that followed that cartoon and how it led to violence shows the threat is real and doesn't diminish over time. See Rushdie as well.

I showed you how I lost a close friend just from those messages I sent them (not even posting a pic of Mo)

I can't be arsed. If you don't want to make a point on the thread, I'm not interested in watching another video to try and decipher what you're trying to say.

It's got partial nudity hence why I can't post it here, but it's the very graphic production with Christian themes currently playing in Germany.