Israel and Lebanon

[Kylehnat]

You edited that Wikipedia article, you Zionist devil!

Of course, we'll simply just ignore the fact that both the Nile and Euphrates run north-south, and the blue lines on the Israeli flag run "east-west", so to speak. I guess they just didn't have a map when they created it...

 

[FoolKiller]

You edited that Wikipedia article, you Zionist devil!

Just trying to get the meat while trimming off all the fat.

 

[Kylehnat]

Just trying to get the meat while trimming off all the fat.

I meant that you edited the article itself to reflect your viewpoint .

A lot of these articles have actually been locked recently because of vandals and idiots.

 

[DuckRacer]

I meant that you edited the article itself to reflect your viewpoint .

A lot of these articles have actually been locked recently because of vandals and idiots.

I didn't even know you can stop a wiki article being edited.

 

[niky]

It's possible. And it's been required, to keep interns from editing Senators' Wiki entries to remove all the juicy stuff...

The inaccuracies/vandalism/propaganda are why I always cross-reference with at least three or four other sources before consulting wikipedia.

 

[Solid Fro]

Just a thought.

 

[niky]

You edited that Wikipedia article, you Zionist devil!

Of course, we'll simply just ignore the fact that both the Nile and Euphrates run north-south, and the blue lines on the Israeli flag run "east-west", so to speak. I guess they just didn't have a map when they created it...

Actually, we can go even deeper...

If the Israeli flag, thus:

means that Israel wants to put everything between the two rivers under Zionist rule, then the Lebanese flag:

means that they want to plant trees between rivers of blood? Must be a fertility ritual or something...

The Jordanian Flag:

implies that they want to give Palestine:

to the Israelis. Of course, it's a gift with barbs, thus the extra point on the star...

 

[Kylehnat]

the Lebanese flag:

means that they want to plant trees between rivers of blood? Must be a fertility ritual or something...

Actually, they might be trying to convince Stanford University to build a branch campus in Beirut

 

[Swift]

Amazing...

Now that Lebanon has gotten Israel to stop beating them down(only reason they would accept a cease fire) things seemed to have toned down a bit.

So, what do you all think of the cease fire agreement?

I just heard from a friend that cease fire means "reload" in arabic(or native language of Lebanon.)

 

[FoolKiller]

Amazing...

Now that Lebanon has gotten Israel to stop beating them down(only reason they would accept a cease fire) things seemed to have toned down a bit.

So, what do you all think of the cease fire agreement?

I just heard from a friend that cease fire means "reload" in arabic(or native language of Lebanon.)

Well, if Lebanon does get 15,000 troops to go to the south and attempt to control the border I doubt it will work because they will essentially be firing on their own countrymen and might not be willing to do that, or they will refuse because they support Hezbollah.

Then the UN is going to take forever getting their 15,000 peacekeeping troops in there and have gotten Israel to agree to the 2,000 UNIFIL troops that are already there until they can find enough volunteers for the larger force to go into Lebanon. They have pretty much been ineffective up to this point, so that won't change anything.

Pretty much, I think it is just a piece of paper and things will be back to where they were in time. Nothing will have changed.

I think Israel is making a gesture of good faith either in a completely dumb move or as an attempt to show the world that they aren't the genocidal barbarians that some would make them out to be.

 

[ledhed]

I like Iran and Syria having a party saying " they " won..

Then I see hezbollah coffins...all their fortress's blown to bits including their headquarters and most of southern lebenon in rubble .

Also Israeli troops occupy the south . hezbollah leaders are in hiding..


Makes you wonder what a" loss " is .💡


I guess they figure not being completely destroyed and having a crater were lebenon used to be would be a loss...


Crazy friggin " leaders " and their people " buy " this crap ???

Makes me wonder about them .



" YAY we won ...we only let Israel bomb the crap out of everything we own and destroy it and take all of our strong hold s we have been building for six years or more and turn them into rubble and occupy southern Lebenon !

Our leaders must stay in hiding because missiles are following them ...but Iran said we won so we won . !!!


Yay team .

 

[KSaiyu]

Of course it's a win for Hezbollah - it's just a loss for the Israeli and Lebanese people.

 

[Swift]

Of course it's a win for Hezbollah - it's just a loss for the Israeli and Lebanese people.

Exactly. And if Israel was allowed to complete the mission, then it would've been a victory for Israel and Lebanese people. However, once again, we have allowed terrorism to endure...

 

[magburner]

I like Iran and Syria having a party saying " they " won..

Then I see hezbollah coffins...all their fortress's blown to bits including their headquarters and most of southern lebenon in rubble .

Also Israeli troops occupy the south . hezbollah leaders are in hiding..


Makes you wonder what a" loss " is .

Israel lost, thats a certainty. After 5 weeks of fierce bombardments, they failed in all the objectives they planned. Destroy Hezbollah - failed. Disarm Hezbollah - failed. Gain the release of the two captured soldiers - failed. Not bad for the forth largest army in the world eh? Talk about incompetance! The Lebanon campaign was nothing more than a 5 week murdering spree that had the backing of America and the UK. Israel had upwards of 30,000 troops in the south of Lebanon, and Hezbollah had only a reported 4,000. Every time Israel met them on the ground in combat they suffered heavily.

Israel killed many, and most of them where civillians, Hezbollah killed few, and most of them were soldiers, now you tell me who the real terrorists are.

EDIT: To top it all off, they have shown no respect to the ceasefire, and the UN resolution. Israel mounts fresh Lebanon raid. When is the world going to wake up and put Israel in its place? Its time for sanctions, and isolation. If Hezbollah had broken the ceasefire, there would be worldwide condemnation, is there anything going to be said to Israel?

Lets just hope the 'terrorists' show a little more restraint than the Israelis, after all, this time it is Israel that is the aggressor.

 

[niky]

So.... you're complaining that Israel didn't go hog wild and finish off the Hez'bollah despite the international condemnation of their airstrikes? Which, incidentally, they scaled back after the civilian casualties and the public ire it drew?

Jesus, and get off it already, Hez'bollah was lobbing rockets willy-nilly at civilian areas. Israel may have blood on their hands, but the Hez'bollah had every intent of giving as good as or better than they got. And they gave first.

And of course, according to the news article you quoted, they still believe they've won.

Bad of Israel to break the ceasefire, yes... but I don't doubt for a moment that the Hez'bollah are just waiting to do the same thing. And they won't aim for a military target, either... they'll just keep lobbing munitions into civilian areas at random, as most terrorists are wont to do.

Let's put this clearly. Terrorists target civilians primarily in order to achieve political/ideological goals. Israel is targetting military targets in order to achieve military/strategic goals. While the callous disregard for innocent human life as "collateral damage" is unpardonable, especially in light of the ceasefire... how does that make Hez'bollah's total contempt for the lives of any and all civilians, whether allied with the military or not, better?

 

[KSaiyu]

Let's put this clearly. Terrorists target civilians primarily in order to achieve political/ideological goals. Israel is targetting military targets in order to achieve military/strategic goals. While the callous disregard for innocent human life as "collateral damage" is unpardonable, especially in light of the ceasefire... how does that make Hez'bollah's total contempt for the lives of any and all civilians, whether allied with the military or not, better?

I understand what you're saying, but you've got to look at the end results - Hezbollah killed more Israeli soldiers than civilians, whereas Israel has flattened many cities in the south and killed at LEAST 500 more civilians than Hezbollah terrorists. It's pretty hard to justify despite whatever intentions Israel set out for in the beginning, and it's especially more so since none of their objectives have been fulfilled.

 

[GT4_Rule]

But how can we tell if the "civilians" were not actually Hezbollah terrorists in disguise? After all, the terrorists are master of disguise, they use the civilians. And plus the Israeli civilians were better prepared than the Lebanese counterpart; they were evacuated earlier, and that's the reason for fewer Israeli civilian casualties.

 

[magburner]

I understand what you're saying, but you've got to look at the end results - Hezbollah killed more Israeli soldiers than civilians, whereas Israel has flattened many cities in the south and killed at LEAST 500 more civilians than Hezbollah terrorists. It's pretty hard to justify despite whatever intentions Israel set out for in the beginning, and it's especially more so since none of their objectives have been fulfilled.

HOOAH to that! Remember it was only a week ago that the Olmet said that there would be no cessasion in the hostilities between Israel and Lebanon until a) Hezbollah were destroyed or disarmed, b) A 'robust' international force was deployed in the south of Lebanon, and c) the two captured Israeli soldiers were released. Isn't it strange that just a week later, they are willing to accept a ceasefire and a UN resolution, and happily 'forget' about their captured soldiers?

Obviously, something was said somewhere (and I don't mean at the UN), or why else why Israel agree to a ceasefire and UN resolution that was not in their favour? Who ever 'eventually' convinced Israel to stop the assault on Lebanon, must have very little conscience. Destroying a nation, killing many innocent civillians and creating social, economic and ecological disasters is not an acceptable response for the capture of two soldiers no matter what the circumstances. Looking back, its plain to see that Israel has gained nothing from the last five weeks, and lost a lot.

If every bomb makes a martyr, then how many martyrs have Israel created?

But how can we tell if the "civilians" were not actually Hezbollah terrorists in disguise? After all, the terrorists are master of disguise, they use the civilians. And plus the Israeli civilians were better prepared than the Lebanese counterpart; they were evacuated earlier, and that's the reason for fewer Israeli civilian casualties.

Your defending the indefensible. Seeing the terrible images of destruction on the News in Lebanon, its clear that Israel was not just targetting Hezbollah. Huge residential areas in Lebanons cities are in ruins, whole towns and villages have been reduced to rubble. Judging by the scale of the devastation, Israel would have you believe that Hezbollah was endemic in Lebanon society, but that is not the case - they only hold a few seat in the nations parliment. Yes Hezbollah had support, but it was mostly tacet. Remember Hezbollah drove Israel form Lebanon and ended a long and bloody occupation, so they were seen as a resistance force - the countries liberators.

 

[KSaiyu]

But how can we tell if the "civilians" were not actually Hezbollah terrorists in disguise? After all, the terrorists are master of disguise, they use the civilians. And plus the Israeli civilians were better prepared than the Lebanese counterpart; they were evacuated earlier, and that's the reason for fewer Israeli civilian casualties.

Hence why I left a margin for error - official Lebanese figures show even more civilians killed compared to Hezbollah than what I stated, I said "at least" for a reason.

Also the statement that the Israelis were "evacuated earlier" as the sole reason is wrong, since BOTH sides evactuated their people and BOTH sides had people remain in danger areas - Israel and Lebanon.

 

[DuckRacer]

...and happily 'forget' about their captured soldiers?

Yeah really, did Israel ever get 'em back? Or are they dead, or in terrorist hands?

 

[magburner]

Yeah really, did Israel ever get 'em back? Or are they dead, or in terrorist hands?

Nope, the Israeli soldiers are still capitive. Its anyones guess whether they are alive or dead.

 

[KSaiyu]

I heard a report that Israel was preparing to exchange Palestinian Hamas figures for the one captured Israeli soldier, haven't seen anything on the other 2 captured soldiers.

 

[ledhed]

hezbollah is not supposed to rearm ..thats a " violation " of the cease fire .
Israel claims to have launched the raid at the border to stop this rearming .

Who is supposed to be enforcing the cease fire for HEZBOLLAH ?


This cease fire agreement is not worth the paper its printed on .

The UN has its colleective finger stuck in its butt..no one wants to send troops because they have no mandate ot guidlines...
The cease fire was to supposed to take force with Hezbollah being disarmed and international peace keeping force moving into Southern Lebanon to take over security with the Lebanese army .


WTF ?

BTW..Hezbollah lost . They survived because of pressure put on Israel by the infidel westerners , there is no way to count the billions of dollars in fortifications and arms and other Hezbollah organizational structure that was destroyed along with their fughters...as far as ground fighting..instead of the usual 25 dead Hezbollah or other terorist for each Israeli it was only maybe 15 , they did better than expected...and they managed to stay alive because they hid amognst the civilians . Thats not winning . israel went as far as it wanted but was limited because it could not destroy the Lebanese along with the roaches .
You have no clue what war is if you think a thousand MAYBE dead civilians in a month is a war .

 

[Swift]

I understand what you're saying, but you've got to look at the end results - Hezbollah killed more Israeli soldiers than civilians, whereas Israel has flattened many cities in the south and killed at LEAST 500 more civilians than Hezbollah terrorists. It's pretty hard to justify despite whatever intentions Israel set out for in the beginning, and it's especially more so since none of their objectives have been fulfilled.

This argument is fundamentally flawed. These people killed more then those people so that makes it unjustified.

It's actually very EASY to justify Israel's intentions from the beginning. If they wanted to, they could have very easily flattened southern lebanon and everyone in it. However, they did what they could to fight back but still save civilians lives. Much more then the Hezbollah ever did for Israel. But you continue to fail to see that. All you see is "civilian deaths" and the rest of the story doesn't seem to matter.

The civlian casualties are very sad. But they are the result of two things. 1) the lebanese government not getting rid of Hezbolah 2) Hezbolah using civilians as a type of camoflage.

 

[GT4_Rule]

HOOAH to that! Remember it was only a week ago that the Olmet said that there would be no cessasion in the hostilities between Israel and Lebanon until a) Hezbollah were destroyed or disarmed, b) A 'robust' international force was deployed in the south of Lebanon, and c) the two captured Israeli soldiers were released. Isn't it strange that just a week later, they are willing to accept a ceasefire and a UN resolution, and happily 'forget' about their captured soldiers?

Obviously, something was said somewhere (and I don't mean at the UN), or why else why Israel agree to a ceasefire and UN resolution that was not in their favour? Who ever 'eventually' convinced Israel to stop the assault on Lebanon, must have very little conscience. Destroying a nation, killing many innocent civillians and creating social, economic and ecological disasters is not an acceptable response for the capture of two soldiers no matter what the circumstances. Looking back, its plain to see that Israel has gained nothing from the last five weeks, and lost a lot.

If every bomb makes a martyr, then how many martyrs have Israel created?



Your defending the indefensible. Seeing the terrible images of destruction on the News in Lebanon, its clear that Israel was not just targetting Hezbollah. Huge residential areas in Lebanons cities are in ruins, whole towns and villages have been reduced to rubble. Judging by the scale of the devastation, Israel would have you believe that Hezbollah was endemic in Lebanon society, but that is not the case - they only hold a few seat in the nations parliment. Yes Hezbollah had support, but it was mostly tacet. Remember Hezbollah drove Israel form Lebanon and ended a long and bloody occupation, so they were seen as a resistance force - the countries liberators.

Well you see, as others have noted earlier, Israel accepted the ceasefire because it was the one they tabled even before the war had begun - so of course they will accept it in a heartbeat, because that is what they were lobbying for. However, Hezbollah, refused to accept the plan earlier when Israel tabled it to them, and after a month of fighting, they realized that it is not possible to beat the advanced military of Israel, so when the resolution (keep in mind it's the same on Israel put forth a month earlier) was put forward by UN they accepted, and ceasefire resulted.

Civilian deaths aren't everything - of course, fighting against a terrorist organization, it is expected that you'll get a lot of civilian deaths, because they disguise themselves as civilians! Or even use civilians as human weapon/shied. Terrorist organizations don't have respect for human lives whatsoever - and isn't that more brutal and sickening than Israeli air strikes killing 900 civilians?

 

[ledhed]

The biggest problem the west has with fighting terrorist is the only way to win is to destroy them AND those who support them and hide them or in anyway associate with them...they are hiding in a villiage ? Wipe it off the map . A city ? Destroy it and everything in it and take pictures of the bodies and put them in the news.

That... they and those who support them would appreciate and respect and fear . This is what they would do if they were us ...its the fundemental difference ..if the rolls were reversed it would be "insha'Allah"
and expected by a culture that respectds strength and strong leadership...a HUGE gap in culture. Not many in the west really understands the mindset .

But who the hell wants to become that ? NO western nation...unless of course a Nuke is detonated in London or New York or a bunch of trains and planes start being dropped and blown up...then it will be open season on Arabs...the more brutal they get ..well history shows very well what the west is capable of...Dresden ...Hiroshima...any of the Battles against Japan in the Pacific..what did we take about a thousand prisoners ? out of a around million soldiers ? flame throwers and high explosives close quarter slaughter.

I was a happy puppy when the Berlin wall came down and the cold war I lived through was over..IS this our new Hot war ? It is looking very much like Islamic radical facism and extremism , combined with terrorist states Like Iran are our new war ...you can see the players lining up and no one wants to do anything because of the oil ...Ironic the west has been nuetered by its former slaves and colonies ...karma is a bitch .

So much for my PEACE dividend....its a new world ..with nukes more likely to be used NOW than when the US and the Soviet union had thousands of missiles aimed at each other .

And yet you have naive idiots DEFENDING the right of Iran..or anyone to have a nuke...You are morons..we need LESS nukes and less countries with them and we DO NOT need a person who "God has spoken to" with them .

Cut the bullcrap arguments ...one nuke will go off and a hundred thousand dead bodies will pile up.
Compare that to all the crying over Lebanons ..900 dead people .

Then break out the shisk kabbobs because it wont end with one...it never does..so millions of dead fanatics and innocents will be vaporized...

And you want to try to make a argument for Iran to have a nuke ?

Sell it someplace else .

While the world laments the dead .

 

[KSaiyu]

This argument is fundamentally flawed. These people killed more then those people so that makes it unjustified.

That wasn't what I said - I believe the FORCE used was.

It's actually very EASY to justify Israel's intentions from the beginning. If they wanted to, they could have very easily flattened southern lebanon and everyone in it. However, they did what they could to fight back but still save civilians lives.

It's easy to judge the intentions from the beginning, it's the hard part justifying it after the END result, since it's done nothing for the people of nothern Israel or the families of the captured soldiers. But don't take my word on it, just read the reports of ISRAELIs campaigning for Ehud Olmert and military leaders to resign.

Much more then the Hezbollah ever did for Israel. But you continue to fail to see that. All you see is "civilian deaths" and the rest of the story doesn't seem to matter.

Hardly. I've backed it up with other facts and my own opinions on the matter, not just continually recounting the death toll on its own. It seems its people on the other side of the argument who fail to see how far Israel went and the damage caused.

BTW..Hezbollah lost . They survived because of pressure put on Israel by the infidel westerners , there is no way to count the billions of dollars in fortifications and arms and other Hezbollah organizational structure that was destroyed along with their fughters.

Men and money they lost yes. But they still accomplished what they set out to do -

-defend Lebanon from the "invading jews"
-keep the two captured soldiers
-still have influence in southern Lebanon

I can't see how they lost this war, then again I can't see how any side won.

 

[Swift]

That wasn't what I said - I believe the FORCE used was.

How else would you judge force if not by casualties?

It's easy to judge the intentions from the beginning, it's the hard part justifying it after the END result, since it's done nothing for the people of nothern Israel or the families of the captured soldiers. But don't take my word on it, just read the reports of ISRAELIs campaigning for Ehud Olmert and military leaders to resign.

Because they stopped before they were allowed to accomplish their goal.

Hardly. I've backed it up with other facts and my own opinions on the matter, not just continually recounting the death toll on its own. It seems its people on the other side of the argument who fail to see how far Israel went and the damage caused.

Damage, outside of deaths, is at most a secondary issue. Israel was trying to destroy the means in which Hezbollah was receiving and launching munitions into Israel. How else can you do that except to blow up the infrastructure.

All this being said, you still, as before, have offered no alternative that Israel could've done besides go in an beat down Hezbollah.

Men and money they lost yes. But they still accomplished what they set out to do -

-defend Lebanon from the "invading jews"
-keep the two captured soldiers
-still have influence in southern Lebanon

I can't see how they lost this war, then again I can't see how any side won.

-Why did the Jews "invade" in the first place?
-Why did they abduct the soldiers?
-They're not supposed to have influence in Lebanon according to the UN resolution.

So basically, they're just a radical, illegal, islamic facist party that holds no regard for Israel, the UN or the rest of the world. Interesting, I wonder why Israel wanted to eliminate that particular threat so badly?

 

[KSaiyu]

How else would you judge force if not by casualties?

Exactly, you have to judge force by the casualties and damage, hence why I said that it's the force used which was unjustified.

Because they stopped before they were allowed to accomplish their goal.

Like I said in the middle of the conflict - where was it going to stop. Do you honestly believe they could have taken back the two soldiers and disarmed Hezbollah and removed them from the south of Lebanon entirely by continally bombing?

Damage, outside of deaths, is at most a secondary issue. Israel was trying to destroy the means in which Hezbollah was receiving and launching munitions into Israel. How else can you do that except to blow up the infrastructure.

This reasoning could be used by any nation to justify excessive force used. Imagine if we demolished Irish towns, or even shelled American towns because they fed the IRA - or if Spain targeted ETA friendly cities and all the its infrastructure.

All this being said, you still, as before, have offered no alternative that Israel could've done besides go in an beat down Hezbollah.

I never claimed to have the answer to terrorism, the only thing I suggested was trading the prisoners for the captured soldiers - although this would go against their policy of no negotiations with terrorists (even though as I mentioned they are considering this option with the Palestinians).

Why did the Jews "invade" in the first place?
-Why did they abduct the soldiers?
-They're not supposed to have influence in Lebanon according to the UN resolution.

-To take back the captured soldier and stop attacks into Israel
-To exchange for prisoners
-I know that, but they still do

I was pointing out what they set out to do, and why the millions in southern Lebanon and surronding arab countries still support them and believe they won.

So basically, they're just a radical, illegal, islamic facist party that holds no regard for Israel, the UN or the rest of the world. Interesting, I wonder why Israel wanted to eliminate that particular threat so badly?

I can see why they would.

 

[Scaff]

The biggest problem the west has with fighting terrorist is the only way to win is to destroy them AND those who support them and hide them or in anyway associate with them...they are hiding in a villiage ? Wipe it off the map . A city ? Destroy it and everything in it and take pictures of the bodies and put them in the news.

That... they and those who support them would appreciate and respect and fear . This is what they would do if they were us ...its the fundemental difference ..if the rolls were reversed it would be "insha'Allah"
and expected by a culture that respectds strength and strong leadership...a HUGE gap in culture. Not many in the west really understands the mindset .

The aproach you suggest is one that has strong similarities to the approach taken by the Russians in Afganistan in the 1980's, and it worked a treat back then didn't it.

You appear here to be attaching fundamentalist views to an entire religion/culture, and then advocating a collective punishment based on that approach. That is far more likely to result in the hardening of attitudes within the mainstream Islamic culture, rather that forcing them into submission by a form of religious genocide (which is what you appear to be advocating here).

But who the hell wants to become that ? NO western nation...unless of course a Nuke is detonated in London or New York or a bunch of trains and planes start being dropped and blown up...then it will be open season on Arabs...the more brutal they get ..well history shows very well what the west is capable of...Dresden ...Hiroshima...any of the Battles against Japan in the Pacific..what did we take about a thousand prisoners ? out of a around million soldiers ? flame throwers and high explosives close quarter slaughter.

Can you provide substantive proof that the low number of Japanese POWs was a direct result of large scale massacres by Allied troops in WW2?

I think that you will find the balance of historical opinion (from all sides) on the matter is that it was linked to the strict honour code of the Japanese people at the time, which considered surrender or capture to be a disgrace.

Or were the Japanese soldiers who continued the war for so long after it finished simply still hiding from brutal Allied troops?

So much for my PEACE dividend....its a new world ..with nukes more likely to be used NOW than when the US and the Soviet union had thousands of missiles aimed at each other .

I think most people who lived through the Cuban missile crisis may well disagree with you on that one.

As far as a modern nuclear conflict risk goes, I would personally put India/Pakistan as top of my risk list. A dispute that has far less to do with religious idiology and more to do with land.

And yet you have naive idiots DEFENDING the right of Iran..or anyone to have a nuke...You are morons..we need LESS nukes and less countries with them and we DO NOT need a person who "God has spoken to" with them .

How can you post the above and in another recent thread defend Iran's 'right' to develop nuclear technology?

and have this in your sig

SUPPORT FREE NUKES FOR ALL ...THE WORLD NEEDS AN ENEMA !

Regards

Scaff