Israel - Palestine discussion thread

[Blitz24]

Skipping over that we promised the land to the Arabs, and we took over as colonialists..no as I said, it was Britain who went back on the deal.
Israel is the one that has created the Gaza Ghetto, and is in charge of it now.

Do you think the palestinians are firing rockets at Tel Aviv because the British went back on a deal they made nearly a hundred years ago?

Israel didn't create the ghetto. Actually, they pulled out of the region and forcibly removed their own people so that the Palestinians could live there. Of course, Hamas saw an opening and immediately seized it, creating a small terrorist enclave in the midst of Palestinians who most certainly don't want to be repeatedly bombarded with missiles and rockets. Hamas wants to charge Israel with war crimes (which could be warranted, I am not saying Israel is 100% innocent) but will then insist that Israel is attacking civilians (which it is not). Hamas hides themselves amongst civilians and will literally shoot people behind human shields.

And Hamas is firing the rockets because they have stated repeatedly that they will never make peace with a country that it vows to extinguish (its in their charter too). Whatever concessions Israel has to make must come with the guarantee that their land won't be threatened by constant rocket fire every single day.

 

[Skuh]

Israel didn't create the ghetto. Actually, they pulled out of the region and forcibly removed their own people so that the Palestinians could live there. Of course, Hamas saw an opening and immediately seized it, creating a small terrorist enclave in the midst of Palestinians who most certainly don't want to be repeatedly bombarded with missiles and rockets. Hamas wants to charge Israel with war crimes (which could be warranted, I am not saying Israel is 100% innocent) but will then insist that Israel is attacking civilians (which it is not). Hamas hides themselves amongst civilians and will literally shoot people behind human shields.

And Hamas is firing the rockets because they have stated repeatedly that they will never make peace with a country that it vows to extinguish (its in their charter too). Whatever concessions Israel has to make must come with the guarantee that their land won't be threatened by constant rocket fire every single day.

I'm sorry, no.
The Ghetto was created by the following things:-
The restriction of movement of the people of Gaza by Israel.
The wall.
Armed Guards shooting people dead who enter restricted zones.
The restriction of free trade, fuel medicines and food, all controlled by Israel.
The fact that Palestinians have to have permits to pass from one part of their own land to another (not talking about Israel here, palestine).
No jobs, no money as a result of the restrictions.
The bulldozing of the houses of the people leaving them homeless and destitute.
It's quite remarkable how many similarities there are between this and the warsaw ghetto.

Israel may have a right to defend itself, but of the two groups of people from Israel and Palestine. Only one is fighting for their survival, and it isn't Israel. They are a very prosperous nation.

 

[Blitz24]

I'm sorry, no.
The Ghetto was created by the following things:-
The restriction of movement of the people of Gaza by Israel.
The wall.
Armed Guards shooting people dead who enter restricted zones.
The restriction of free trade, fuel medicines and food, all controlled by Israel.
The fact that Palestinians have to have permits to pass from one part of their own land to another (not talking about Israel here, palestine).
No jobs, no money as a result of the restrictions.
The bulldozing of the houses of the people leaving them homeless and destitute.
It's quite remarkable how many similarities there are between this and the warsaw ghetto.

Israel may have a right to defend itself, but of the two groups of people from Israel and Palestine. Only one is fighting for their survival, and it isn't Israel. They are a very prosperous nation.

So then what would you say would happen if Israel DIDN'T defend itself? Would they receive humanitarian aid? Would there be more suicide bombers running into Israel and exploding themselves in civilian areas? And for the record there is a TON of humanitarian aid that goes into the Gaza Strip. Where does all that money go? To buy missiles and rockets. Hamas has created a terrorist state in the vacuum.

 

[Skuh]

So then what would you say would happen if Israel DIDN'T defend itself? Would they receive humanitarian aid? Would there be more suicide bombers running into Israel and exploding themselves in civilian areas? And for the record there is a TON of humanitarian aid that goes into the Gaza Strip. Where does all that money go? To buy missiles and rockets. Hamas has created a terrorist state in the vacuum.

Oh wow, you really need to learn how things are in Gaza before you start saying there is a 'ton of aid', and where does all that money go. Please google it.

Anyway I will answer, your points.
No, Israel would not receive humanitarian aid. They don't now. Killing people will not get them any aid either.
No, there would not be more suicide bombers running into Israel if they didn't attack Gaza with missiles and soldiers. It is now very hard to get through the barriers so they would not increase.
If you want them to stop long term......two state solution stop making illegal settlements and conform to the UN mandates that Israel is in breach of.
That may work. Try it, Violence hasn't.

 

[Danoff]

I'm sorry, no.
The Ghetto was created by the following things:-
The restriction of movement of the people of Gaza by Israel.
The wall.
Armed Guards shooting people dead who enter restricted zones.
The restriction of free trade, fuel medicines and food, all controlled by Israel.
The fact that Palestinians have to have permits to pass from one part of their own land to another (not talking about Israel here, palestine).
No jobs, no money as a result of the restrictions.
The bulldozing of the houses of the people leaving them homeless and destitute.
It's quite remarkable how many similarities there are between this and the warsaw ghetto.

This is not really surprising is it? I mean, Israel pulled out of Gaza as a strategic move to create a buffer while technically giving the Palestinians what they asked for. Was there any hope that this would turn into a wonderful beautiful place to live? It shouldn't have been demanded of Israel, and Israel has used it to their advantage in ways that don't exactly promote the strength of their enemies.

The Gaza Ghetto was created by the neverending feud. Perhaps the Palestinians shouldn't have demanded it.

Israel may have a right to defend itself, but of the two groups of people from Israel and Palestine. Only one is fighting for their survival, and it isn't Israel. They are a very prosperous nation.

What the hell does that have to do with anything? Perhaps Palestine should not survive.

If you want them to stop long term......two state solution

...except one side has vowed that they will wipe the other side out or die.

 

[Blitz24]

Oh wow, you really need to learn how things are in Gaza before you start saying there is a 'ton of aid', and where does all that money go. Please google it.

Anyway I will answer, your points.
No, Israel would not receive humanitarian aid. They don't now. Killing people will not get them any aid either.
No, there would not be more suicide bombers running into Israel if they didn't attack Gaza with missiles and soldiers. It is now very hard to get through the barriers so they would not increase.
If you want them to stop long term......two state solution stop making illegal settlements and conform to the UN mandates that Israel is in breach of.
That may work. Try it, Violence hasn't.

Then tell that to Hamas. I'm sure Israel is willing to end this if Hamas agrees to stop firing rockets. Also the idea of a Right of Return needs to be reviewed (if not redefined or eliminated) because that will inundate and destroy Israel from within.

 

[Skuh]

This is not really surprising is it? I mean, Israel pulled out of Gaza as a strategic move to create a buffer while technically giving the Palestinians what they asked for. Was there any hope that this would turn into a wonderful beautiful place to live? It shouldn't have been demanded of Israel, and Israel has used it to their advantage in ways that don't exactly promote the strength of their enemies.

The Gaza Ghetto was created by the neverending feud. Perhaps the Palestinians shouldn't have demanded it.

The conditions that have made it the ghetto were created by Israel. Other parts of palestine are not a ghetto. It is this that is. It was created by Israel. We can discuss the wider condflict all day, but the ghetto was created by Israel. they put the restrictions in place. they have restricted food. they have restricted fuel. they have restricted medicine, not the palestinians.




What the hell does that have to do with anything? Perhaps Palestine should not survive.

this was in response to the often quoted "Israel has a right to defend itself".

True, but Palestine and Palestinian people have a right to survival. The palestinian people suffer far more than Israeli people as a group.

As for one side saying they will wipe the other out. Well There is no 'one' voice for the palestinian people and there are plenty of people who don't want a palestinian state and will do all they can to stop it. Many Israeli politicians and people have said they will fight it with their lives. It's why there are still illegal israeli settlements.

Then tell that to Hamas. I'm sure Israel is willing to end this if Hamas agrees to stop firing rockets. Also the idea of a Right of Return needs to be reviewed (if not redefined or eliminated) because that will inundate and destroy Israel from within.

I have no faith that that is what Israel wants, have you got any evidence that would help me?
I'm not here to defend Hamas.

 

[Danoff]

The conditions that have made it the ghetto were created by Israel. Other parts of palestine are not a ghetto. It is this that is. It was created by Israel. We can discuss the wider condflict all day, but the ghetto was created by Israel. they put the restrictions in place. they have restricted food. they have restricted fuel. they have restricted medicine, not the palestinians.

...but it was land that was demanded and which they gave. Gaza was in better shape while Israel owned it. So who is to blame? I blame both.

True, but Palestine and Palestinian people have a right to survival. The palestinian people suffer far more than Israeli people as a group.

Again, what difference does it make who is suffering? Palestine has no right to exist. The forfeited that the moment they attacked Israel and vowed to slaughter everyone in it.

Some of the Palestinians have a right to life, but Palestine as nation does not have a right to exist.

As for one side saying they will wipe the other out. Well There is no 'one' voice for the palestinian people

...but there is for a "nation". Don't confuse the people with the "nation" of Palestine.

Many Israeli politicians and people have said they will fight it with their lives.

Not exactly the same thing given that this Palestinian state is supposed to exist on top of Israel and a dead Israeli population.

Look, Israel is not exactly being a saint here. But the Palestinians need to shove off. It's over, stop trying to take back Israel, stop the holy war nonsense and leave Israel the hell alone.

 

[Skuh]

...but there is for a "nation". Don't confuse the people with the "nation" of Palestine.
No, there is no one voice for the nation or for the State either, that is one of the reasons Palestine is so fractious.

Again, what difference does it make who is suffering? Palestine has no right to exist. The forfeited that the moment they attacked Israel and vowed to slaughter everyone in it.

Some of the Palestinians have a right to life, but Palestine as nation does not have a right to exist.

Look, Israel is not exactly being a saint here. But the Palestinians need to shove off. It's over, stop trying to take back Israel, stop the holy war nonsense and leave Israel the hell alone.

By your logic, innocent palestinian people who get attacked by Israeli jets must have a right to defend themselves....?
Yes, it's evil Palestinians who wish a state and people to cease...............



Both sides in this attack each other, but if peace is to be achieved Israel has to make the first move and the biggest move. Why? They have all the power. If they don't make the first move, the violence will never stop.

 

[opelgt1969]

...but it was land that was demanded and which they gave. Gaza was in better shape while Israel owned it. So who is to blame? I blame both.



Again, what difference does it make who is suffering? Palestine has no right to exist. The forfeited that the moment they attacked Israel and vowed to slaughter everyone in it.

Some of the Palestinians have a right to life, but Palestine as nation does not have a right to exist.



...but there is for a "nation". Don't confuse the people with the "nation" of Palestine.



Not exactly the same thing given that this Palestinian state is supposed to exist on top of Israel and a dead Israeli population.

Look, Israel is not exactly being a saint here. But the Palestinians need to shove off. It's over, stop trying to take back Israel, stop the holy war nonsense and leave Israel the hell alone.

No right to exist!,And here's the history lesson for today:

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/mapstellstory.html

 

[Tornado]

How does a defensive action result in the total conquest of someone else's lands?

When the someone else keeps attacking and keeps getting pushed back because the someone else didn't get the hint the first time.

 

[Müle]

Look, Israel is not exactly being a saint here. But the Palestinians need to shove off. It's over, stop trying to take back Israel, stop the holy war nonsense and leave Israel the hell alone.

If someone took your land from you, you would want it back, right?

 

[Sanji Himura]

Not going to happen, unless someone launches a nuke.

Hamas launched missiles that could have hit Tel Aviv, and that was close enough for President Peres.

One has to remember that the missiles that Hamas has isn't designed to go after specific targets, or in other words, they are not "smart" missiles. As I saw Johnathon Hunt report for Fox's 3PM EST hour, "those missiles would have to hit you to kill you", his words. If Gaza obtained smarter missiles, or even nukes from Iran(and that is another can of worms right there), then it would be a game changer for the region.

If someone took your land from you, you would want it back, right?

They never had it in the first place. The Hebrews lost the land to the Romans in 70 AD when they were scattered across the globe.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

The solution is simple, one of them has to win and obliterate the other until there's no more resistance. Since both can not coexist with each other peacefully, the only way to achieve peace is total supremacy in a war. I would wish Israel wins, my personal thought of course, I don't care about politics, war is run by military, whatever it takes to achieve the mission goals, even tactical thermonuclear ordnance like B61 is also fine, as long as it gets the job done swiftly without further conflict.

The B61 nuclear bomb is one of the primary thermonuclear weapons in the U.S. Enduring Stockpile following the end of the Cold War. It is an intermediate yield strategic and tactical nuclear weapon featuring a two-stage radiation implosion design.[1]

The B61 is a variable yield bomb (0.3 to 340 kiloton yield in various versions and settings) designed for carriage by high-speed aircraft. It has a streamlined casing capable of withstanding supersonic flight speeds. The weapon is 11 ft 8 in (3.58 m) long, with a diameter of about 13 in (33 cm). Basic weight is about 700 lb (320 kg), although the weights of individual weapons may vary depending on version and fuze/retardation configuration.
Though exact numbers are hard to establish, research done by the Natural Resources Defense Council suggests approximately 180 are deployed with United States Air Force Europe units.[3]

As of 2005, they are deployed in Europe under the NATO nuclear sharing arrangement.[4] NATO has agreed to vastly improve the capabilities of this force with the increased accuracy of the B61 Mod.12 upgrade and the stealthy delivery of the F-35.[5]

In May 2010 the National Nuclear Security Administration asked Congress for $40 million to redesign the bomb to enable the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II to carry the weapon internally by 2017.[11] This version is designated Mod.12.[12] The four hundred B61-12 bombs will be used by both tactical aircraft (such as the F-35) and strategic aircraft (such as the B-2) and the Tail Subassembly (TSA) will give them Joint Direct Attack Munition levels of accuracy, allowing the fifty kiloton warhead to have strategic effects from all carrying aircraft.[13]

From Wikipedia, if this is true, dropping 10 or more B61 Mod12 JDAM on strategic locations should end any conflict quickly. Israel should have these.

 

[terminator363]

Really good back story on Gaza.

 

[lbsf1]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20353223

Egypt is showing their complete support for Gaza.

 

[sumbrownkid]

Israel dropping a nuclear weapon will only isolate them further and actually provide more fuel to her enemies.

I assure you. Israel would only be digging a grave along with everyone else.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Launching a nuclear weapon on Gaza would probably irradiate large parts of Israel, including Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. It's not an option.

 

[SalmanBH]

In 1967, Charles De Gaulle held a dialogue with the Saudi Arabian King Faisal. French President Charles De Gaulle told King Faisal that the Jews have a right to Palestine because they lived there 4,000 years ago. King Faisal told him that in that case, France belongs to Rome, because 3,000 years ago, the Romans were in France. Does every country that occupies another country [have a right to it]? Palestine is the country of the Palestinians, who have lived there since the day God created it. If every country belonged to the people who entered it, no country in the world would belong to its people.

“[De Gaulle] said: But some Jews were born in Palestine, and therefore, it is their country. [King Faisal] asked: How many embassies are there in France? [De Gaulle] said: 150 embassies. [King Faisal] asked: “What if every ambassador or embassy worker whose wife gives birth in France were to demand that France belong to him because his children were born in France? France would be lost to you.

“Charles De Gaulle was speechless, and he was so convinced by what King Faisal said that he banned the sale of arms to the Jews in those days.

One of the reasons why King Faisal was assassinated by the CIA, he was one major threat to the Israeli State.

 

[Famine]

the day God created it.

One of the reasons why King Faisal was assassinated by the CIA

[Citations needed]

Folk like to draw a line under the occupation of Palestine at a point in time they like to draw it to prove that [territory] belongs to [people]. Drawing the line at "the day God created it" is no different, except considerably more implausible and unhelpful, since it implies a deity conjured that specific land into existence with the people already on it - rather than it being bereft of humanity for 4,449,850,000 years and not even being where it is for 4,370,000,000 of those years.

So by Faisal's own apparent argument, the first people who turned up there didn't own the land either. They merely turned up there, one day in the Quaternary Period.

At that point you have to ask yourself who, if anyone, owns ANY land? There's a good, existing answer out there - but it isn't "the first people who turned up there" and your quotes of Faisal's argument specifically argues against that.


As far as I'm aware, Faisal was mummified very shortly after his untimely death and no autopsy was performed - making a known cause of death impossible and thus a known mechanism of death conjecture.

 

[Signal52]

At that point you have to ask yourself who, if anyone, owns ANY land? There's a good, existing answer out there - but it isn't "the first people who turned up there"

Yessir. 👍

 

[SalmanBH]

Well, it appears that you have defeated me and the point I made.

Salute.

But then again, look at what's happening in Gaza, it isn't really considered to be a part of the Palestinian territories due to the authoritarian rule of Hamas who won the elections. Israel's been giving them poop because they are ruled by Hamas, and President Mahmoud Abbas is just sitting there trying and trying to get the Palestinian Territories to be recognised as a state to the world. And after Mahmoud Abbas gave his speech at the UN, everyone BUT the US and Israel agreed.

Now, Israel continuously labels the Palestinians as terrorists, even though they're actually trying to defend themselves.

 

[DK]

That's a pretty bad idea... it would require immorally annihilating Israel and they will exact their toll. They have a lot of military strength. It would be a humanitarian disaster, it would be immoral, aggressive, and counter-productive.

Don't forget about Israel's "Samson Option".

 

[Hun200kmh]

This is what's going to happen. Israel bombs the crap out of Hamas. Hamas then strikes back and gets a few kills. Then Israel forces America to condemn Hamas in the UN.

UN calls for cease fire immediately, but laughing this off, both Israel and Hamas continue to cut and bleed each other while the rest of the world go about their daily lives.

Israel is forever stuck in a "whack-a-mole" game when it comes to dealing with groups like Hamas, but unfortunately for them this game is set to go on forever. Bombs do not deter a people who have been unified in the fight against Israel for over 60 years.

A brilliant post that sums it up. Claiming self defense and an impending menace, Israel attacks, kills hundreds, Hamas retaliates, kills a few. Then Israel call them terrorists and bombs a litle more just to make a point. Then Hamas promises the destruction of Israel, making also their point clear.

Then they resume their "normal" sectarian hate driven lives, licking their wounds and ...

... repeat al later. Claiming self defense and an impending menace Israel attacks, kills hundreds .... etc etc

 

[Famine]

A brilliant post that sums it up. Claiming self defense and an impending menace, Israel attacks, kills hundreds, Hamas retaliates, kills a few.

It's worth noting that, until the start of the week when Israel retaliated, there had been unanswered Hamas shelling and rocketing of civilian homes in Ashkelon for nearly two weeks - killing three civilians with nearly 200 rounds fired. The Israeli response was to target militants (who like to hide amongst civilians when threatened) and rocket placements - killing seven militants and twelve civilians.

Short version: Hamas aimed hundreds of rounds of explosives at civilians over two weeks; Israel responded once by attacking military targets.

It was Israel that retaliated* and though they killed civilians, they were not targetting them - Hamas was the aggressor* and specifically targeted civilians.


Of course this lead to escalation - Hamas's response was to fire 200 more rockets at Ashkelon and Tel Aviv, again at the civilian population


*It goes without saying that each side - and those who excuse each side - will argue that they retaliate and the other side is the aggressor because [long-standing territorial dispute] and [deity], bringing up past wrongs committed by the other side that they are retaliating against. But in this instance, Hamas started the conflict, shelling civilians, and Israel responded by attacking military targets.

 

[Skuh]

It's worth noting that, until the start of the week when Israel retaliated, there had been unanswered Hamas shelling and rocketing of civilian homes in Ashkelon for nearly two weeks - killing three civilians with nearly 200 rounds fired. The Israeli response was to target militants (who like to hide amongst civilians when threatened) and rocket placements - killing seven militants and twelve civilians.

Short version: Hamas aimed hundreds of rounds of explosives at civilians over two weeks; Israel responded once by attacking military targets.

It was Israel that retaliated* and though they killed civilians, they were not targetting them - Hamas was the aggressor* and specifically targeted civilians.


Of course this lead to escalation - Hamas's response was to fire 200 more rockets at Ashkelon and Tel Aviv, again at the civilian population


*It goes without saying that each side - and those who excuse each side - will argue that they retaliate and the other side is the aggressor because [long-standing territorial dispute] and [deity], bringing up past wrongs committed by the other side that they are retaliating against. But in this instance, Hamas started the conflict, shelling civilians, and Israel responded by attacking military targets.

You left out a small detail. Israel though attacking military targets and not directly civilians, knew that there would be an almost certainty of civilian 'collateral damage'. I would agree with everything you said though.

 

[Famine]

Indeed - but there's still a gulf 'twixt aiming rockets at houses that probably have civilians in them and aiming rockets at rocket placements that may have civilians around them because they like to hide them around people.

Like the difference between accidentally killing a hostage when you shoot the criminal holding them and just shooting a child.

 

[Skuh]

Indeed - but there's still a gulf 'twixt aiming rockets at houses that probably have civilians in them and aiming rockets at rocket placements that may have civilians around them because they like to hide them around people.

Like the difference between accidentally killing a hostage when you shoot the criminal holding them and just shooting a child.

I wasn't drawing a comparison, as I said I agreed with everything you said. I just think you omitted a detail.

 

[Dennisch]

All this talking about nukes. Stop playing video games. The regio is too small and too crowded to nuke effectively.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

All this talking about nukes. Stop playing video games. The regio is too small and too crowded to nuke effectively.

Still possible though, B61 Mod11 and Mod12 can be used as bunker buster or surface leveling bomb with the accuracy of JDAM munition ( within few meters ) - there's a reason why the US still want to actively deploy them for use with F35 to 2020 and possibly beyond, the yield can also be scaled down or up to reduce or increase fallout. Ranging from less than a kiloton - 0.3 to several hundreds of kiloton.

I think Israel might have similar thermonuclear bomb in their inventory, just a matter of time when they got cornered and decide to use it, one bomb could destroy a few hundred meters of radius ground target with minimum fallout - drop them in a few key strategic locations won't mean a massive all out nuclear war, it does not have to be like Tsar Bomba level of yield.