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- nelo_vergil8909
Kazunori Yamauchi IAmA @ Reddit (FINISHED)
- Thread starter tankuroded
- 520 comments
- 30,534 views
But the point of discussion was that they spend x amount of time making these cars, time that they could spend modeling real cars. What you've just said doesn't change that.
- 84
- nelo_vergil8909
Of course it takes time. But the VGTs are added fast after reveal so either their not hard to add in game or PD works on them in advance. This coming from Kazs own repeated statements that it takes 6(ish) months to add cars. So either the VGTs don't take that long to add/make or (i'm just guessing on this one) the manufactures also make 3D models for PD*. Theirs also the fact, which i mentioned, that PD might have access to them much earlier at development. My point is we don't know how long PD takes with VGTs and they've all been added a month after reveal and not the 6 Kaz likes to state.
oh and yes by "add in game" i do mean model.
*just a tinfoil hat moment
Yet, that's the problem with selecting more cars within the same spec, it will hurt the game's variety.
Is not the same saying "that's a cool car" as oppose to "that's a different car, lets put it in", part of the variety of the game is having different spec cars that work within the premium ones, some car choices are stupid indeed (like the kubelwagen or whatever), however they introduce different GT500 and GT300 premium cars that work in par with some standard GT300 and GT500 cars. Then you have classic car models, which also use standards to complement the classic racing grids.
Having them categorically writing down choices for the game based on spec and matched performance will only led to a shrink variety, NASCAR cars wouldn't be there if they were dictated under such logic, neither would WRC cars and Pikes Peak cars, it would be inconceivable for them to have such cars when they have to make competitive car grids, the last few cars just don't fit within any grid other than themselves, and it should be noted that one of the most fun racing aspects of GT6 (even if not as realistic) is NASCAR, which is it's own spec altogether.
If they were to remove 500 standards that complement the game, then 100 premium complementing them wont cut it. As crap as they might look they still compose half the grids sometimes, and most of the grids sometimes, so having them gone in favour of eye candy is just nonsensical. Not to mention that it would hurt the chances of having other types of cars in the game (F3 cars, Formula E cars, Indy cars, etc...)
- 2,993
- Brisbane
- jimipitbull
- 11,339
- The 51st state of america
- sparkytooth50001
Something tells me PD doesn't take 6 months to model a machine anymore.
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
Yes, and the salesmen are out selling and Kaz is attending board meetings and the sounds guys are busy...dubbing in fake sounds on trailers to cover up the embarassing in-game sounds. Regardless of the process, it still takes a modeler time to model a VGT. Maybe it's 1:1 or 2VGT:1 premium or 5 VGT:1 premium. The larger point is you're trading off new, real, premium cars for fantasy cars.
- 2,993
- Brisbane
- jimipitbull
The larger point is the 30 manufacturers involved in this project. Collaboration, some doors open, others stay open. A license here and there, and BAM. Modellers now have access to a wider variety of new, real, premium cars.
- 7,830
- U S A
- Tetsumura
- Nigel Fox
Oh yes.
And I see that it's not just me. And, as I predicted, some people are in full meltdown over it. And I will have to reiterate that those of you who don't even want to SEE a Standard car are just sad. I don't consider that a sensible or even rational position. At all.Plus, we don't even know what the Standards fate will be. If they will be in the same state. How many will become Premiums. How many will become Premiums over time.
Let's say for the sake of argument, since some of you will pick on anyone, that there are 400 duplicates. So 400 discreet models, no matter how you slice it, is still a lot of cars to lose. And it's really more like 650.
And this hasn't even touched the matter of Standard tracks. I really don't want to lose those tracks in GT7 either, because track numbers are at least as important as for cars, if not more so. And I want ALL the classic tracks from past Gran Turismos, because they're well designed and iconic. And since it was brought up, yes, those GT1 and 2 cars too.
There are some real gems in the legacy track list, much more fun to throw a car around than Apricot Hill, which was very welcome. People still ask for the Seattles, Midfield, Red Rock Valley, Pike's Peak... I can't think of any track that hasn't been mentioned. Even that snarl of intestines known lovingly as Complex String!
You obviously haven't spent much time in the NASCAR events. And this involves mere liveries.
Regardless, a thousand cars are going to give us far more options than 400. Personally, I'd want to see 400 race cars, now that we're getting involvement with FIA. I keep harping on this, but it's a good harp, wanting to have enough race cars within a league class, like FIA GT2 or ALMS, to fill out a racing grid. And in GT7, that grid could be 24 cars big, or larger. Alternate liveries will help, and liveries are the easy part, but I want that car variety. I want to see Aston Martins, Jaguars, Ford GTs, Saleens, BMWs, Lamborghinis, Ferraris, Maseratis, McLarens, TVRs, the Ascari, racing RUFs in lieu of Porsche - or Porsche... heck, I want to see every racing league imaginable, even fantasy leagues like the Asia GT I mention occasionally. And this requires LOTS of cars. And no matter how you slice it, more cars are closer to LOTS.
Again, I'd prefer Premiums, and we don't know what's going to happen with the Premium list, or how many Standards will be converted. But I don't want to lose cars which would fit well into a BTCC field, or an ALMS league race. And I have to ditto @Akira AC 's post above, well said.
By the way, the "grab bag" remarks about PD's car choices in a car list this large isn't really fitting. One, the boss loves cars of all categories. Two, getting those cars into Gran Turismo requires a subject car in good shape, or at least recreatable data to model. Three, they can't model everything yesterday, it takes time. Whether it's still six months or not is moot, it's laborious, painstaking and time consuming. If you want a real grab bag car list, check out Forza 5's, which is downright erratic.
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Sorry for any confusion but I was talking about developers (of racing games). Obviously some people would rather have them working on real cars but I have no sympathy for anyone who's complaining about it now. We all knew going in that we had more than 25 VGT cars that needed to be made.
A quantum leap in DLC would obviously be in relation to the games predecessor correct? How many new cars and tracks did we have this time in GT5?
I also don't know how many times I need to post this but here we go one more time.
https://twitter.com/takuimasaki/status/441238177433403392
we got an answer about the one track a month thing back in March from the guy who said it.
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- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
We also had the promise of a "quantum leap in DLC", which could easily be taken to mean 25 VGT cars spread over a couple of years plus a huge amount of regular street and racing cars + tracks (one per month remember?). Had we known that the quantum leap in DLC actually meant mostly the VGT cars + the promised Senna content and only one track new to the series in 6 months, I suspect at least some people would have made a different decision last December.
One need only look at the cars being modeled in other games to know that access to cars for modeling in videogames is almost wide open except for a couple of exclusive series that will almost certainly remain exclusive to whomever wants to pay the fees for it. One only needs a wallet to get access to most cars and given the relative shoestring budget PCars is being developed on and given the stellar lineup they are providing, licensing cars can't be very expensive. Even if they blew half their budget purely on licensing cars which is unlikely, it works out to something like $20K per car. What's stopping PD at this point from spending $20k/car?
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No, i'm afraid it's not that simple. You don't just convert CAD data into a different format for your game. Not at all.
- 2,993
- Brisbane
- jimipitbull
Because CAD data is not made with polygons, which is what a videogame object is made from. If you just tried to convert it you would end up with a horrible mesh that isn't optimised for usage, there would be tons of useless data and polys.
You use the CAD as a guide to build a polygon mesh from scratch.
- 1,137
And whats so bad about it?
PD and many car manufacturers work together in a very innovative project, something never done before in the videogames industry and all you guys do is hate them because they didn't add the bazillion different cars asked by bazillion different fans.
Sorry, is there something wrong with not liking concept cars? I appreciate the project is innovative and it's great that PD work so closely with manufacturers, doesn't change my opinion that I don't care for concept cars in general.
- 2,993
- Brisbane
- jimipitbull
Is polygon mesh a fancy term for vector file(s)?
ACME CAD converter
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygonal_modeling#Construction_of_polygonal_meshes
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
Strawman much? Who asked for a bazillion cars? Is it so hard to acknowledge that by modeling VGT cars we are trading off real life cars in the game and that some people would rather the real cars than the fantasy cars?
Can you not see how it gets into the craw of some diehard GT fans to see fantasy cars popping up everywhere now, very few new real cars outside of Senna content, and this list completely ignored?
I didn't say you can't convert CAD data to a polygon mesh, I said the result of such a conversion would be of no use for a video game asset. Not in a world where an asset has to be built to a polygon budget, anyway.
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- P.Lav
The people defending this hurt my head. Is this what you wanted out of everything, when PD said "quantum leap" in regards to DLC? I imagined a system similar to Turn 10, with huge car packs of cars the fans want. Not what Kaz wants, what we want, the people who pay for the game. What other job in the world can you say, screw the customer, they're going to pay me, to do whatever the heck I want to do. And I don't care that it's free content, I'd rather pay for quality content.
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- ProjectWHaT
Because this is the internet. You must be new here. I'll be your guide.
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- Neomone
Nope.
Why not? Are there not 16 real NASCARs that could be modelled? I thought fields in NASCAR were more like forty.
And I know there's more than 16 of either of these.
There's very, very few cars for which this is true.
Right now, yes.
I'm saying that they should have designed their premium car list in this way from the beginning. They've dug themselves a hole now, and the only way out is to plan what cars they need and start making them. They make about two hundred cars between games (apparently), and I think that's enough to make a damn good start. GT6 premiums + 200 is enough to make a very good car list, if the cars are chosen well.[/quote][/quote]
would people be interested if i explain the difference between CAD data and 3D art assets created for movies and games, and whats involved moving from one to the other? my job for the past 6 years has been in training simulators for aircraft, ships and gas refinerys, sometimes for maintenance processes, sometimes for navigation and familiarisation, so quite literally dealing with CAD data and interpreting it to put into games...its not a simple one click process, but its also not some secret black art...i also like to model 3D cars in my spare time for my own personal enjoyment, got a smattering of them here (plus WIP images in the scraps section) http://the-ic.deviantart.com/gallery/?catpath=/&offset=0
ill try and include example pictures etc. ...it might be a long winded post though
ill try and include example pictures etc. ...it might be a long winded post though
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- Croatia
alright, cool, ill have to type up a draft in a word document so i can make sure its understandable and not techno-gibberish before i post though
as far as tesselation goes, typically a model has to be built with the intention of using it, and its where "quads" (4-sided polygons) and the flow of the wireframe of the model really becomes crucial...in 3DSMax, which i use, its a modifier called Turbosmooth, in Maya (Polyphonys 3D modelling program of choice from all the photos and video ive seen) its called something else, but it operates exactly the same, it subdivides and averages each polygon by however many iterations you tell it to
i think all models intended for GT6 would have been created with it in mind, not sure about GT5 models though...they could have wanted tesselation in GT5, and hence the models catered for it, but didnt get it working in time, so they just set the tesselation iterations and level-of-detail meshes manually...ive also noticed the adaptive tesselation seems to kick in a bit too early, on the GT86 in the tuning garage i remember seeing the wheelarches going all chunky in plain view, they may have adjusted it in a patch though, ill have to look again when i actually get GT6 working again (its just black screening me at the moment)
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- Croatia
alright, cool, ill have to type up a draft in a word document so i can make sure its understandable and not techno-gibberish before i post though
as far as tesselation goes, typically a model has to be built with the intention of using it, and its where "quads" (4-sided polygons) and the flow of the wireframe of the model really becomes crucial...in 3DSMax, which i use, its a modifier called Turbosmooth, in Maya (Polyphonys 3D modelling program of choice from all the photos and video ive seen) its called something else, but it operates exactly the same, it subdivides and averages each polygon by however many iterations you tell it to
i think all models intended for GT6 would have been created with it in mind, not sure about GT5 models though...they could have wanted tesselation in GT5, and hence the models catered for it, but didnt get it working in time, so they just set the tesselation iterations and level-of-detail meshes manually...ive also noticed the adaptive tesselation seems to kick in a bit too early, on the GT86 in the tuning garage i remember seeing the wheelarches going all chunky in plain view, they may have adjusted it in a patch though, ill have to look again when i actually get GT6 working again (its just black screening me at the moment)
Alright thanks. It's always good to know more about the process. To be honest I doubt GT5 models were created with tessellation in mind, I guess they'll have to add more poly's manually because some of the earlier models have blocky curves like wheels or wheel arches. But maybe you're right. Either way, I hope updating those won't take much time.
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First of all, PD is not obliged to provide us with a consistent stream of new cars, especially for free. If PD gave us tommorow a LeMans 24h DLC with the new R18, TS040 and several GTE cars, tears of joy would flow on this page.
Buuuut... If they do this, they take away a major selling point for GT7. They have to carefully choose which cars we get as DLC and which we don't, PD works horribly inefficient and can only do so much, look at GT6s rather small roster of new cars.
They have to carefully choose what to give us and what not.
The VGTs were promised to us when the game launched and for me atleast, It was a major selling point. PD would really dissappoint me if they stop doing the VGTs and focuse more on cars like the P1. Latter would be nice of course, but when I paid my 60 bucks I was promised VGTs from Mercedes, Lamborghini, Audi etc and not the P1.
And I repeat: I am not the only one who prefers to see a glimpse of what manufacturers are up to then driving super cars which will be in every other racing game (hopefully GT too) anyway. Ok, new LMP1s would be incredible, but still, Audis VGT interests me more than its R18. I want to see its new singleframe design, its engine/drive train layout, hopefully its interior, its specs etc.
Edit:
I rather pay money for Kazs vision then Cars packs full of E30s and E36s.
